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Author Topic: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief: Comments  (Read 1396 times)

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Jon Wood

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An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief: Comments
« on: January 07, 2020, 09:45:55 pm »
Iíll get it out of the way so you can read something else if you have no interest. This is the ďFully God and Fully ManĒ topic. Well... at its heart, this is that. You might wonder what might be different, this is old stomping ground for many of you.

I want to play with the concept in a way that may have been done before, but definitely isnít the standard back and forth that goes on day in and day out for people like us. What if we approach this by getting the hard part out of the way? It means exactly what you think that means. What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?

Iíll probably give you more backstory at a later time. Iíll give this some time to see where it goes for a little while. Iíll be checking  out your initial thoughts from the background for at least a little while. Maybe we can come up with some new crazy theory or something, of course, maybe iím The only one that even likes the idea, lol.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 09:57:03 pm by Jon Wood »

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patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 11:41:34 pm »
Iíll get it out of the way so you can read something else if you have no interest. This is the ďFully God and Fully ManĒ topic. Well... at its heart, this is that. You might wonder what might be different, this is old stomping ground for many of you.

I want to play with the concept in a way that may have been done before, but definitely isnít the standard back and forth that goes on day in and day out for people like us. What if we approach this by getting the hard part out of the way? It means exactly what you think that means. What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?

Iíll probably give you more backstory at a later time. Iíll give this some time to see where it goes for a little while. Iíll be checking  out your initial thoughts from the background for at least a little while. Maybe we can come up with some new crazy theory or something, of course, maybe iím The only one that even likes the idea, lol.
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on this thread.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 10:21:17 am »
Jon Wood Rocks
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Jon Wood

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 11:59:19 am »
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on this thread.
I find it interesting already that it seems difficult to not focus toward deity. It seems so deeply rooted in us that deity is the concept we are looking to confirm or deny. 

I donít think Iím consciously trying to bring up the ďwhat degree of omnipotenceĒ thing. Iím trying to work against the grain to see if we notice anything different.

Think of this method of approach, at least for a little while, as you would trying to show the deity of Jesus to someone who only accepts his humanity (we see it everyday). Now switch ďhumanityĒ and ďdeityĒ, the guy currently only believes that Jesus is God. Where might their concerns be? Even if they donít know how to express them?

patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 12:12:37 pm »
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on this thread.
I find it interesting already that it seems difficult to not focus toward deity. It seems so deeply rooted in us that deity is the concept we are looking to confirm or deny. 

I donít think Iím consciously trying to bring up the ďwhat degree of omnipotenceĒ thing. Iím trying to work against the grain to see if we notice anything different.

Think of this method of approach, at least for a little while, as you would trying to show the deity of Jesus to someone who only accepts his humanity (we see it everyday). Now switch ďhumanityĒ and ďdeityĒ, the guy currently only believes that Jesus is God. Where might their concerns be? Even if they donít know how to express them?
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes, He did.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at the same time.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Jon Wood

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 01:13:47 pm »
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes, He did.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at the same time.
Why would the ability to experience pain be a factor in a full expression of humanity? If God has emotions such as love and anger, even prior to walking the Earth as Jesus, surely he was at least capable of feeling pain to some degree, why would the addition of physical pain require being fully human? Allowing the burden of physical pain to be an inconvenience for such a small time as compared to an eternity that He had no doubts about (because he brought it about) is a small price to pay for God. A price yes, pain yes, Iím not so sure it required humanity other than form. If emotions made Jesus a man, then Jesus was a man before he was born.

*See, weird huh? Now, itís going to be hard for me to be consistent at this and I wonít have an explanation for everything, because itís a relatively new idea Iíve sunk only a small amount of thought in prior to posting, on top of it maybe being impossible to apply in certain situations. Lol, my reply was kinda cringey to write, but it was kinda fun.*

patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 10:25:13 pm »
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes, He did.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at the same time.
Why would the ability to experience pain be a factor in a full expression of humanity? If God has emotions such as love and anger, even prior to walking the Earth as Jesus, surely he was at least capable of feeling pain to some degree, why would the addition of physical pain require being fully human? Allowing the burden of physical pain to be an inconvenience for such a small time as compared to an eternity that He had no doubts about (because he brought it about) is a small price to pay for God. A price yes, pain yes, Iím not so sure it required humanity other than form. If emotions made Jesus a man, then Jesus was a man before he was born.

*See, weird huh? Now, itís going to be hard for me to be consistent at this and I wonít have an explanation for everything, because itís a relatively new idea Iíve sunk only a small amount of thought in prior to posting, on top of it maybe being impossible to apply in certain situations. Lol, my reply was kinda cringey to write, but it was kinda fun.*
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Jon Wood

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2020, 09:25:55 am »
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Now, weíve hit a point that Iím not sure that I understand how Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like that are what this whole idea is about really.

Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please explain what you can from both perspectives. Itís something Iíve never understood.
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Bladerunner

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2020, 06:26:03 pm »

You said:"What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?"

What a topic....One could go bananas thinking about this one topic...

To answer your question: He was born of woman, therefore HE is "Fully" Human, a man.

Blade
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 06:28:20 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Bladerunner

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2020, 06:28:38 pm »

You said:"What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?"

What a topic....One could go bananas thinking about this one topic...

To answer your question: He was born of woman, therefore HE is "Fully" Human, a man.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2020, 06:53:44 pm »
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Now, weíve hit a point that Iím not sure that I understand how Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like that are what this whole idea is about really.

Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please explain what you can from both perspectives. Itís something Iíve never understood.
I used to say and think that Jesus Christ was diminished or made lower concerning His Divinity WHILE IN THE EARTH AS A MAN. This seems to be what many people believe as well.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Bladerunner

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2020, 07:23:37 pm »
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Now, weíve hit a point that Iím not sure that I understand how Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like that are what this whole idea is about really.

Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please explain what you can from both perspectives. Itís something Iíve never understood.
I used to say and think that Jesus Christ was diminished or made lower concerning His Divinity WHILE IN THE EARTH AS A MAN. This seems to be what many people believe as well.

Jesus was not diminished while He was on earth....As He was a Man he is already in the image of GOD...... It is apparent throughout the scriptures that Jesus was unaware who HE was..;..Yes, He could have called down the armies of Heaven to stop the crucifixion but He did not.....At an early AGE, He knew who His father was....and He through John and others preaches that His father is the only GOD........We see this changes as after he is resurrected and knows who He is actually is....On the Cross, He did not know because of the Asking"Why have you forsaken me" and yet, in the end did know.

Fully Man,,,,because of His Birth of WOMAN and Fully GOD because He was the seed of Himself..........

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Jon Wood

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2020, 08:36:01 pm »
I used to say and think that Jesus Christ was diminished or made lower concerning His Divinity WHILE IN THE EARTH AS A MAN. This seems to be what many people believe as well.

See, I honestly think itís hard to get to this kind of talking point in the discussion from the usual way of approaching the deity thing. Somewhere, I think it gets mistakenly read as being antagonistic if I were to start off by going ďIf Jesus was God, then Explain x,y,zĒ. Granted, some people are just antagonistic lol, but itís hard to have a discussion when youíre always trying to go for the throat.

 

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