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Author Topic: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief: Comments  (Read 2756 times)

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guest5

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An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief: Comments
« on: January 07, 2020, 09:45:55 pm »
I’ll get it out of the way so you can read something else if you have no interest. This is the “Fully God and Fully Man” topic. Well... at its heart, this is that. You might wonder what might be different, this is old stomping ground for many of you.

I want to play with the concept in a way that may have been done before, but definitely isn’t the standard back and forth that goes on day in and day out for people like us. What if we approach this by getting the hard part out of the way? It means exactly what you think that means. What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?

I’ll probably give you more backstory at a later time. I’ll give this some time to see where it goes for a little while. I’ll be checking  out your initial thoughts from the background for at least a little while. Maybe we can come up with some new crazy theory or something, of course, maybe i’m The only one that even likes the idea, lol.

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patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 11:41:34 pm »
I’ll get it out of the way so you can read something else if you have no interest. This is the “Fully God and Fully Man” topic. Well... at its heart, this is that. You might wonder what might be different, this is old stomping ground for many of you.

I want to play with the concept in a way that may have been done before, but definitely isn’t the standard back and forth that goes on day in and day out for people like us. What if we approach this by getting the hard part out of the way? It means exactly what you think that means. What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?

I’ll probably give you more backstory at a later time. I’ll give this some time to see where it goes for a little while. I’ll be checking  out your initial thoughts from the background for at least a little while. Maybe we can come up with some new crazy theory or something, of course, maybe i’m The only one that even likes the idea, lol.
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on this thread.

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 10:21:17 am »
Jon Wood Rocks

guest5

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 11:59:19 am »
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on this thread.
I find it interesting already that it seems difficult to not focus toward deity. It seems so deeply rooted in us that deity is the concept we are looking to confirm or deny. 

I don’t think I’m consciously trying to bring up the “what degree of omnipotence” thing. I’m trying to work against the grain to see if we notice anything different.

Think of this method of approach, at least for a little while, as you would trying to show the deity of Jesus to someone who only accepts his humanity (we see it everyday). Now switch “humanity” and “deity”, the guy currently only believes that Jesus is God. Where might their concerns be? Even if they don’t know how to express them?

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 12:12:37 pm »
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on this thread.
I find it interesting already that it seems difficult to not focus toward deity. It seems so deeply rooted in us that deity is the concept we are looking to confirm or deny. 

I don’t think I’m consciously trying to bring up the “what degree of omnipotence” thing. I’m trying to work against the grain to see if we notice anything different.

Think of this method of approach, at least for a little while, as you would trying to show the deity of Jesus to someone who only accepts his humanity (we see it everyday). Now switch “humanity” and “deity”, the guy currently only believes that Jesus is God. Where might their concerns be? Even if they don’t know how to express them?
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes, He did.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at the same time.

guest5

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 01:13:47 pm »
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes, He did.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at the same time.
Why would the ability to experience pain be a factor in a full expression of humanity? If God has emotions such as love and anger, even prior to walking the Earth as Jesus, surely he was at least capable of feeling pain to some degree, why would the addition of physical pain require being fully human? Allowing the burden of physical pain to be an inconvenience for such a small time as compared to an eternity that He had no doubts about (because he brought it about) is a small price to pay for God. A price yes, pain yes, I’m not so sure it required humanity other than form. If emotions made Jesus a man, then Jesus was a man before he was born.

*See, weird huh? Now, it’s going to be hard for me to be consistent at this and I won’t have an explanation for everything, because it’s a relatively new idea I’ve sunk only a small amount of thought in prior to posting, on top of it maybe being impossible to apply in certain situations. Lol, my reply was kinda cringey to write, but it was kinda fun.*

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 10:25:13 pm »
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes, He did.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at the same time.
Why would the ability to experience pain be a factor in a full expression of humanity? If God has emotions such as love and anger, even prior to walking the Earth as Jesus, surely he was at least capable of feeling pain to some degree, why would the addition of physical pain require being fully human? Allowing the burden of physical pain to be an inconvenience for such a small time as compared to an eternity that He had no doubts about (because he brought it about) is a small price to pay for God. A price yes, pain yes, I’m not so sure it required humanity other than form. If emotions made Jesus a man, then Jesus was a man before he was born.

*See, weird huh? Now, it’s going to be hard for me to be consistent at this and I won’t have an explanation for everything, because it’s a relatively new idea I’ve sunk only a small amount of thought in prior to posting, on top of it maybe being impossible to apply in certain situations. Lol, my reply was kinda cringey to write, but it was kinda fun.*
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.

guest5

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2020, 09:25:55 am »
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Now, we’ve hit a point that I’m not sure that I understand how Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like that are what this whole idea is about really.

Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please explain what you can from both perspectives. It’s something I’ve never understood.
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guest8

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2020, 06:26:03 pm »

You said:"What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?"

What a topic....One could go bananas thinking about this one topic...

To answer your question: He was born of woman, therefore HE is "Fully" Human, a man.

Blade

guest8

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2020, 06:28:38 pm »

You said:"What if we work from the premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?"

What a topic....One could go bananas thinking about this one topic...

To answer your question: He was born of woman, therefore HE is "Fully" Human, a man.

Blade

patrick jane

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2020, 06:53:44 pm »
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Now, we’ve hit a point that I’m not sure that I understand how Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like that are what this whole idea is about really.

Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please explain what you can from both perspectives. It’s something I’ve never understood.
I used to say and think that Jesus Christ was diminished or made lower concerning His Divinity WHILE IN THE EARTH AS A MAN. This seems to be what many people believe as well.

guest8

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2020, 07:23:37 pm »
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy Spirit and the information in God's words.
Now, we’ve hit a point that I’m not sure that I understand how Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like that are what this whole idea is about really.

Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please explain what you can from both perspectives. It’s something I’ve never understood.
I used to say and think that Jesus Christ was diminished or made lower concerning His Divinity WHILE IN THE EARTH AS A MAN. This seems to be what many people believe as well.

Jesus was not diminished while He was on earth....As He was a Man he is already in the image of GOD...... It is apparent throughout the scriptures that Jesus was unaware who HE was..;..Yes, He could have called down the armies of Heaven to stop the crucifixion but He did not.....At an early AGE, He knew who His father was....and He through John and others preaches that His father is the only GOD........We see this changes as after he is resurrected and knows who He is actually is....On the Cross, He did not know because of the Asking"Why have you forsaken me" and yet, in the end did know.

Fully Man,,,,because of His Birth of WOMAN and Fully GOD because He was the seed of Himself..........

Blade

guest5

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Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2020, 08:36:01 pm »
I used to say and think that Jesus Christ was diminished or made lower concerning His Divinity WHILE IN THE EARTH AS A MAN. This seems to be what many people believe as well.

See, I honestly think it’s hard to get to this kind of talking point in the discussion from the usual way of approaching the deity thing. Somewhere, I think it gets mistakenly read as being antagonistic if I were to start off by going “If Jesus was God, then Explain x,y,z”. Granted, some people are just antagonistic lol, but it’s hard to have a discussion when you’re always trying to go for the throat.

 

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