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Author Topic: The Genealogy of Jesus: Comments  (Read 7123 times)

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Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2019, 10:43:02 pm »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2019, 06:22:06 pm »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2019, 07:27:40 pm »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2020, 07:10:35 pm »


Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....

there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.

Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them.  NO (MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would have also affected Jesus.

Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were no males in the household, for the father to adopt the son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land, etc.  This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).

Hope this helps

Blade


Thanks for the welcome.
I understand the curse.
I have several problems with what you wrote.
You say that Joseph was the "legal" son of Heli. There is no scriptural evidence to support the inference of this statement that I am aware of. If you know of this evidence in scripture please present it.
You also say "In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's father". I am unaware of these passages. Would you please provide them?
You also seek to demonstrate that Mary had no male siblings. Would you provide the scriptural evidence for this please?
I am well aware that the statements you make are widely held to be true but I can't believe that God would leave us to make assumptions concerning something so important.
I mean, how does an assumption, however obvious it may seem, take the place of the word of God?

Psa 132:11  The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

You say assumptions which is not true...All that needs to be done is a backwards search sometimes.

Mat 1:1-16,,gives us the Genealogy of Adam to David and the royal LEGAL line from DAVID to Jesus..

In Mat 1:16.
." And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

We see above that Joseph was indeed in the LEGAL Royal line of DAVID, He is the Husband of MARY, the mother of Mary.

Thus so far we have established. Joseph (of the royal line) as the Husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus Christ.

In Luke 3:23-28, we find Luke's genealogy of Jesus from Abraham to David is the same as Matthews.   Yet, from David to Jesus, Luke does not follow the royal line but rather through the second surviving son of Bathsheba, Nathan.  This line starting at Nathan down through Heli, the father of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. The Genealogy in LUKE is backwards with HELI being first in verse


Luk 3:23..(KJV).."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

We also see that Jesus , the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

As above, Joseph already has a father in Matthew....so Heli has to be an adoptive Father as is Joseph being the LEGAL father of Jesus.......
By deductive reasoning, we can see that Mary was the daughter of HELI even though the Bible does not directly say... It can be see as no other way.

See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so Heli has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
What was Luke meaning by this statement?
Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements below are given to us as the word of God.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Listen to his mother...

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49  And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50  And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Why didn't Mary and Joseph understand what he told them? I'll bet you think you know what he meant! Why didn't they?

Quote
FYI: God does this from time to time.....Hiding events, names, etc for the His Kings and priest (the Church (body of Christ)) to seek out and find.

Oh yes, things are hidden. I don't deny that, but the facts are hidden and must be found. We are not supposed to follow rabbit trails riddled with assumptions and conjecture.

Quote
Are you familiar with Jewish LAWs and customs....If I am going over ground you already know, disregard.

On the trip out of Egypt to the wilderness, i was asked of Moses about the father "Zelophehad" who only had daughters and had no sons to receive His inheritance of Land given to them by GOD. This rule permitted the daughters to receive the inheritance if and only if they married within their tribe and their father legally adopted the son-in-law. This is also seen the book of Ruth. I suggest reading this book very cloesly for it is all about Jewish Law on redemption of Land by a Goel. (Boaz).

Yes it so happens I am very aware of all this.
I would be quite accepting of this solution if there was any evidence that it was the case in this situation, but there is not. You are basing your belief on the assumption that it is the case.
There is a stronger case to argue that Mary was of the house of Levi but you won't find me using it because, once again, it is conjecture, without scriptural evidence.
Jer 33:17  For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18  Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Luk 1:5  There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth....

Perhaps you are also aware that there are also snares laid to catch the unwary that would assume that which has not been spoken.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Quote
Here are some passages that you can look upon in your leisure as to the laws and customs of those seen in the above paragraph.  Numbers 26:33; 27:1-11; 36:2-12; Joshua 17:3-6; 1 Chronicles 7:15[/b][/b][/color]

Thank you but I am very familiar with them all.

Quote
Because Jesus was born through the "SEED of the WOMAN" (Mary), her husband Joseph whose biological father was Jacob (Mat 1:16), adopted Jesus as was also the customs and laws given to the Jewish people by GOD.   

There is no assumptions as you can see. Maybe deductive reasoning leaving only one true answer. Many people will say this is not good enough...... It is to me.....because I simply believe every WORD, period, comma, etc to be the true WORD of GOD....SIMPLE

Yes many people would say it's not good enough to apply "deductive reasoning" in place of scriptural evidence. I am one of them.
Supply scriptural support for your assertions and I'll be happy to concur.
You will need scriptural evidence that Mary was a descendant of David and that she had no male siblings. Find that and I will accept what you say. If not, your statement about believing the word of God to be true is just hot air.

Quote
Make no bones about, Satan is trying to stop any one part of the plan of God from being fulfilled.

It makes his job easy when we put our trust in assumptions.

Geoff: I understand your train of thought and I am not assuming anything as to the Father of Mary.

Your words:"See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so Heli has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

What was Luke meaning by this statement?

Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements below are given to us as the word of God."


Luke did two things that one has to stretch the mind to see...

First He did not mention Mary but His Genealogy was of Jesus...He started with HELI and went backwards. Therefore Heli was Jesus' Grandfather..and through Matthew we know that Mary was the Mother of Jesus...

Luke the stated the "As was Supposed" (Joseph the son of Heli) which is a reference to the customs of the Hebrew people under the Law. 

You already know the rest and can put two and two together...There are many things in the Bible that are left out but can only be interpreted in ONE way.   

We know that Heli was Mary's father simply because Luke stated the genealogy of Jesus at the end. That word :END: tells us everything...and the "as was supposed" was put in the BIBLE on purpose....You too see the magnificence of the Bible, the WORD of GOD...

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2020, 07:25:19 am »


Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....

there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.

Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them.  NO (MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would have also affected Jesus.

Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were no males in the household, for the father to adopt the son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land, etc.  This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).

Hope this helps

Blade


Thanks for the welcome.
I understand the curse.
I have several problems with what you wrote.
You say that Joseph was the "legal" son of Heli. There is no scriptural evidence to support the inference of this statement that I am aware of. If you know of this evidence in scripture please present it.
You also say "In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's father". I am unaware of these passages. Would you please provide them?
You also seek to demonstrate that Mary had no male siblings. Would you provide the scriptural evidence for this please?
I am well aware that the statements you make are widely held to be true but I can't believe that God would leave us to make assumptions concerning something so important.
I mean, how does an assumption, however obvious it may seem, take the place of the word of God?

Psa 132:11  The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

You say assumptions which is not true...All that needs to be done is a backwards search sometimes.

Mat 1:1-16,,gives us the Genealogy of Adam to David and the royal LEGAL line from DAVID to Jesus..

In Mat 1:16.
." And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

We see above that Joseph was indeed in the LEGAL Royal line of DAVID, He is the Husband of MARY, the mother of Mary.

Thus so far we have established. Joseph (of the royal line) as the Husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus Christ.

In Luke 3:23-28, we find Luke's genealogy of Jesus from Abraham to David is the same as Matthews.   Yet, from David to Jesus, Luke does not follow the royal line but rather through the second surviving son of Bathsheba, Nathan.  This line starting at Nathan down through Heli, the father of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. The Genealogy in LUKE is backwards with HELI being first in verse


Luk 3:23..(KJV).."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

We also see that Jesus , the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

As above, Joseph already has a father in Matthew....so Heli has to be an adoptive Father as is Joseph being the LEGAL father of Jesus.......
By deductive reasoning, we can see that Mary was the daughter of HELI even though the Bible does not directly say... It can be see as no other way.

See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so Heli has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
What was Luke meaning by this statement?
Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements below are given to us as the word of God.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Listen to his mother...

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49  And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50  And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Why didn't Mary and Joseph understand what he told them? I'll bet you think you know what he meant! Why didn't they?

Quote
FYI: God does this from time to time.....Hiding events, names, etc for the His Kings and priest (the Church (body of Christ)) to seek out and find.

Oh yes, things are hidden. I don't deny that, but the facts are hidden and must be found. We are not supposed to follow rabbit trails riddled with assumptions and conjecture.

Quote
Are you familiar with Jewish LAWs and customs....If I am going over ground you already know, disregard.

On the trip out of Egypt to the wilderness, i was asked of Moses about the father "Zelophehad" who only had daughters and had no sons to receive His inheritance of Land given to them by GOD. This rule permitted the daughters to receive the inheritance if and only if they married within their tribe and their father legally adopted the son-in-law. This is also seen the book of Ruth. I suggest reading this book very cloesly for it is all about Jewish Law on redemption of Land by a Goel. (Boaz).

Yes it so happens I am very aware of all this.
I would be quite accepting of this solution if there was any evidence that it was the case in this situation, but there is not. You are basing your belief on the assumption that it is the case.
There is a stronger case to argue that Mary was of the house of Levi but you won't find me using it because, once again, it is conjecture, without scriptural evidence.
Jer 33:17  For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18  Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Luk 1:5  There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth....

Perhaps you are also aware that there are also snares laid to catch the unwary that would assume that which has not been spoken.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Quote
Here are some passages that you can look upon in your leisure as to the laws and customs of those seen in the above paragraph.  Numbers 26:33; 27:1-11; 36:2-12; Joshua 17:3-6; 1 Chronicles 7:15[/b][/b][/color]

Thank you but I am very familiar with them all.

Quote
Because Jesus was born through the "SEED of the WOMAN" (Mary), her husband Joseph whose biological father was Jacob (Mat 1:16), adopted Jesus as was also the customs and laws given to the Jewish people by GOD.   

There is no assumptions as you can see. Maybe deductive reasoning leaving only one true answer. Many people will say this is not good enough...... It is to me.....because I simply believe every WORD, period, comma, etc to be the true WORD of GOD....SIMPLE

Yes many people would say it's not good enough to apply "deductive reasoning" in place of scriptural evidence. I am one of them.
Supply scriptural support for your assertions and I'll be happy to concur.
You will need scriptural evidence that Mary was a descendant of David and that she had no male siblings. Find that and I will accept what you say. If not, your statement about believing the word of God to be true is just hot air.

Quote
Make no bones about, Satan is trying to stop any one part of the plan of God from being fulfilled.

It makes his job easy when we put our trust in assumptions.

Geoff: I understand your train of thought and I am not assuming anything as to the Father of Mary.

Your words:"See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so Heli has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

What was Luke meaning by this statement?

Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements below are given to us as the word of God."


Luke did two things that one has to stretch the mind to see...

First He did not mention Mary but His Genealogy was of Jesus...He started with HELI and went backwards. Therefore Heli was Jesus' Grandfather..and through Matthew we know that Mary was the Mother of Jesus...

Luke the stated the "As was Supposed" (Joseph the son of Heli) which is a reference to the customs of the Hebrew people under the Law. 

You already know the rest and can put two and two together...There are many things in the Bible that are left out but can only be interpreted in ONE way.   

We know that Heli was Mary's father simply because Luke stated the genealogy of Jesus at the end. That word :END: tells us everything...and the "as was supposed" was put in the BIBLE on purpose....You too see the magnificence of the Bible, the WORD of GOD...

Blade
Blade, I have been a student of the bible for long enough to know that it is unwise to assume anything. If I have to "stretch the mind" as you say then experience says I'm reading something into scripture that isn't there. It isn't my mind that I have to stretch, it's the mind of Christ by the spirit of Christ that is received of faith through the word of God breathed. Put simply, it means one's mind is conformed to the thinking that is in Jesus himself, by the spirit of his Father that gives life also to Christ.
David, a man of God, received a promise, that of his seed, of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh would God raise up Christ to sit upon his throne.
You have zero scriptural evidence of that connection between Jesus and Mary.  You assume it to be true because your theology gives you no other option.
In fact the most compelling argument is that Mary is of the tribe of Levi but that argument also suffers from the same problem; it lacks definitive scriptural support.
I'll admit your ability to see another option limited, since to you, Jesus is God.

You say "There are many things in the Bible that are left out but can only be interpreted in ONE way".
I'm yet to find one.
I'll admit I've been guilty of that same thought myself. Even the same error I accuse you of, I once argued the same, but I've since found that the truth doesn't need assumptions to define it; rather the mind of Christ.

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2020, 02:03:29 pm »


Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....

there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.

Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them.  NO (MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would have also affected Jesus.

Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were no males in the household, for the father to adopt the son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land, etc.  This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).

Hope this helps

Blade


Thanks for the welcome.
I understand the curse.
I have several problems with what you wrote.
You say that Joseph was the "legal" son of Heli. There is no scriptural evidence to support the inference of this statement that I am aware of. If you know of this evidence in scripture please present it.
You also say "In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's father". I am unaware of these passages. Would you please provide them?
You also seek to demonstrate that Mary had no male siblings. Would you provide the scriptural evidence for this please?
I am well aware that the statements you make are widely held to be true but I can't believe that God would leave us to make assumptions concerning something so important.
I mean, how does an assumption, however obvious it may seem, take the place of the word of God?

Psa 132:11  The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

You say assumptions which is not true...All that needs to be done is a backwards search sometimes.

Mat 1:1-16,,gives us the Genealogy of Adam to David and the royal LEGAL line from DAVID to Jesus..

In Mat 1:16.
." And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

We see above that Joseph was indeed in the LEGAL Royal line of DAVID, He is the Husband of MARY, the mother of Mary.

Thus so far we have established. Joseph (of the royal line) as the Husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus Christ.

In Luke 3:23-28, we find Luke's genealogy of Jesus from Abraham to David is the same as Matthews.   Yet, from David to Jesus, Luke does not follow the royal line but rather through the second surviving son of Bathsheba, Nathan.  This line starting at Nathan down through Heli, the father of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. The Genealogy in LUKE is backwards with HELI being first in verse


Luk 3:23..(KJV).."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

We also see that Jesus , the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

As above, Joseph already has a father in Matthew....so Heli has to be an adoptive Father as is Joseph being the LEGAL father of Jesus.......
By deductive reasoning, we can see that Mary was the daughter of HELI even though the Bible does not directly say... It can be see as no other way.

See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so Heli has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
What was Luke meaning by this statement?
Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements below are given to us as the word of God.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Listen to his mother...

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49  And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50  And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Why didn't Mary and Joseph understand what he told them? I'll bet you think you know what he meant! Why didn't they?

Quote
FYI: God does this from time to time.....Hiding events, names, etc for the His Kings and priest (the Church (body of Christ)) to seek out and find.

Oh yes, things are hidden. I don't deny that, but the facts are hidden and must be found. We are not supposed to follow rabbit trails riddled with assumptions and conjecture.

Quote
Are you familiar with Jewish LAWs and customs....If I am going over ground you already know, disregard.

On the trip out of Egypt to the wilderness, i was asked of Moses about the father "Zelophehad" who only had daughters and had no sons to receive His inheritance of Land given to them by GOD. This rule permitted the daughters to receive the inheritance if and only if they married within their tribe and their father legally adopted the son-in-law. This is also seen the book of Ruth. I suggest reading this book very cloesly for it is all about Jewish Law on redemption of Land by a Goel. (Boaz).

Yes it so happens I am very aware of all this.
I would be quite accepting of this solution if there was any evidence that it was the case in this situation, but there is not. You are basing your belief on the assumption that it is the case.
There is a stronger case to argue that Mary was of the house of Levi but you won't find me using it because, once again, it is conjecture, without scriptural evidence.
Jer 33:17  For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18  Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Luk 1:5  There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth....

Perhaps you are also aware that there are also snares laid to catch the unwary that would assume that which has not been spoken.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Quote
Here are some passages that you can look upon in your leisure as to the laws and customs of those seen in the above paragraph.  Numbers 26:33; 27:1-11; 36:2-12; Joshua 17:3-6; 1 Chronicles 7:15[/b][/b][/color]

Thank you but I am very familiar with them all.

Quote
Because Jesus was born through the "SEED of the WOMAN" (Mary), her husband Joseph whose biological father was Jacob (Mat 1:16), adopted Jesus as was also the customs and laws given to the Jewish people by GOD.   

There is no assumptions as you can see. Maybe deductive reasoning leaving only one true answer. Many people will say this is not good enough...... It is to me.....because I simply believe every WORD, period, comma, etc to be the true WORD of GOD....SIMPLE

Yes many people would say it's not good enough to apply "deductive reasoning" in place of scriptural evidence. I am one of them.
Supply scriptural support for your assertions and I'll be happy to concur.
You will need scriptural evidence that Mary was a descendant of David and that she had no male siblings. Find that and I will accept what you say. If not, your statement about believing the word of God to be true is just hot air.

Quote
Make no bones about, Satan is trying to stop any one part of the plan of God from being fulfilled.

It makes his job easy when we put our trust in assumptions.

Geoff: I understand your train of thought and I am not assuming anything as to the Father of Mary.

Your words:"See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so Heli has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

What was Luke meaning by this statement?

Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements below are given to us as the word of God."


Luke did two things that one has to stretch the mind to see...

First He did not mention Mary but His Genealogy was of Jesus...He started with HELI and went backwards. Therefore Heli was Jesus' Grandfather..and through Matthew we know that Mary was the Mother of Jesus...

Luke the stated the "As was Supposed" (Joseph the son of Heli) which is a reference to the customs of the Hebrew people under the Law. 

You already know the rest and can put two and two together...There are many things in the Bible that are left out but can only be interpreted in ONE way.   

We know that Heli was Mary's father simply because Luke stated the genealogy of Jesus at the end. That word :END: tells us everything...and the "as was supposed" was put in the BIBLE on purpose....You too see the magnificence of the Bible, the WORD of GOD...

Blade
Blade, I have been a student of the bible for long enough to know that it is unwise to assume anything. If I have to "stretch the mind" as you say then experience says I'm reading something into scripture that isn't there. It isn't my mind that I have to stretch, it's the mind of Christ by the spirit of Christ that is received of faith through the word of God breathed. Put simply, it means one's mind is conformed to the thinking that is in Jesus himself, by the spirit of his Father that gives life also to Christ.
David, a man of God, received a promise, that of his seed, of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh would God raise up Christ to sit upon his throne.
You have zero scriptural evidence of that connection between Jesus and Mary.  You assume it to be true because your theology gives you no other option.
In fact the most compelling argument is that Mary is of the tribe of Levi but that argument also suffers from the same problem; it lacks definitive scriptural support.
I'll admit your ability to see another option limited, since to you, Jesus is God.

You say "There are many things in the Bible that are left out but can only be interpreted in ONE way".
I'm yet to find one.
I'll admit I've been guilty of that same thought myself. Even the same error I accuse you of, I once argued the same, but I've since found that the truth doesn't need assumptions to define it; rather the mind of Christ.

Mat 1:6. ."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

Blade
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:05:42 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2020, 05:25:23 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2020, 08:02:35 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Like Like x 1 View List

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2020, 07:10:24 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?




Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2020, 10:55:29 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade




1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2020, 05:36:30 am »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2020, 10:53:57 am »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

You said:
"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT."

There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of His (Jesus) ascension.

Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew himself.

Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words, punctuation, etc.  in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and expects us to find them........


Blade

1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2020, 02:42:26 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

You said:
"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT."

There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of His (Jesus) ascension.

Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew himself.

Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words, punctuation, etc.  in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and expects us to find them........


Blade

Well Blade, you have certainly found things (or at least others have way before you came on the scene) but the question remains, was it God who hid them under the rug to be found? God hides things in plain sight within his promises. It takes an understanding of His plan and purpose to find them and only He can direct you to them.
Your trust in the KJV's verses, words, punctuation etc. is not a trust in God I hope you come to realise. I use it almost exclusively myself but my trust isn't in it.  Holy men of old wrote as the Spirit of God gave them understanding. I trust them but I know that wolves in sheep's clothing have crept in to add to and subtract from their inspired writings since then. A little here, a little there, just enough to catch the one who forget's to honour the promises of God. We were warned so we are without excuse.
Thanks for the discussion Blade, it seems to have ended in a stalemate.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 02:44:56 pm by Geoff »
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