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Author Topic: The Genealogy of Jesus  (Read 3835 times)

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Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 05:25:23 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2020, 08:02:35 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2020, 07:10:24 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?




Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2020, 10:55:29 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade




1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2020, 05:36:30 am »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2020, 10:53:57 am »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

You said:
"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT."

There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of His (Jesus) ascension.

Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew himself.

Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words, punctuation, etc.  in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and expects us to find them........


Blade

1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2020, 02:42:26 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

You said:
"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT."

There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of His (Jesus) ascension.

Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew himself.

Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words, punctuation, etc.  in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and expects us to find them........


Blade

Well Blade, you have certainly found things (or at least others have way before you came on the scene) but the question remains, was it God who hid them under the rug to be found? God hides things in plain sight within his promises. It takes an understanding of His plan and purpose to find them and only He can direct you to them.
Your trust in the KJV's verses, words, punctuation etc. is not a trust in God I hope you come to realise. I use it almost exclusively myself but my trust isn't in it.  Holy men of old wrote as the Spirit of God gave them understanding. I trust them but I know that wolves in sheep's clothing have crept in to add to and subtract from their inspired writings since then. A little here, a little there, just enough to catch the one who forget's to honour the promises of God. We were warned so we are without excuse.
Thanks for the discussion Blade, it seems to have ended in a stalemate.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 02:44:56 pm by Geoff »
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Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2020, 03:02:24 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

You said:
"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT."

There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of His (Jesus) ascension.

Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew himself.

Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words, punctuation, etc.  in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and expects us to find them........


Blade

Well Blade, you have certainly found things (or at least others have way before you came on the scene) but the question remains, was it God who hid them under the rug to be found? God hides things in plain sight within his promises. It takes an understanding of His plan and purpose to find them and only He can direct you to them.
Your trust in the KJV's verses, words, punctuation etc. is not a trust in God I hope you come to realise. I use it almost exclusively myself but my trust isn't in it.  Holy men of old wrote as the Spirit of God gave them understanding. I trust them but I know that wolves in sheep's clothing have crept in to add to and subtract from their inspired writings since then. A little here, a little there, just enough to catch the one who forget's to honour the promises of God. We were warned so we are without excuse.
Thanks for the discussion Blade, it seems to have ended in a stalemate.

Probverbs 25:2..."It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

This should clear up who was hiding(concealing) things.....GOD, for WHO???????--->Kings,,,,,(us the Church (body of Christ))

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

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