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Author Topic: The Genealogy of Jesus: Comments  (Read 7318 times)

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Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2020, 03:02:24 pm »
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?

you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately 12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt  happened sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1 BC.

I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from 2 years old down. 

My question is:  How did the regular soldier determine the age of a child or did he really care????????   

Like that or did you have something else in mind????

Blade


Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?

Jer 31:15  Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16  Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.

The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:3  Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4  And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5  Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6  Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7  Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8  For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9  And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isa 7:10  Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11  Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12  But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13  And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

**************
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a little long?


There are several scholars that have their own views, some around 3 BC and some around 4 BC.  What I told you was what I believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many times by several scholars and backup up by historical records. Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in verses here and there and comparing them to historical records.....

God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus where Jesus was raised. 

Look to  Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)

*****
you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more historical writings concerning Herod than any of his contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.


Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...

I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did  I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...

And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my postings......That is their right.   If you do not agree it is ok.....
 

Blade

And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we look at the OT references and you only reference one and then only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers" argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.

You said:
"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to the actual account in tho OT."

There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of His (Jesus) ascension.

Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew himself.

Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words, punctuation, etc.  in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and expects us to find them........


Blade

Well Blade, you have certainly found things (or at least others have way before you came on the scene) but the question remains, was it God who hid them under the rug to be found? God hides things in plain sight within his promises. It takes an understanding of His plan and purpose to find them and only He can direct you to them.
Your trust in the KJV's verses, words, punctuation etc. is not a trust in God I hope you come to realise. I use it almost exclusively myself but my trust isn't in it.  Holy men of old wrote as the Spirit of God gave them understanding. I trust them but I know that wolves in sheep's clothing have crept in to add to and subtract from their inspired writings since then. A little here, a little there, just enough to catch the one who forget's to honour the promises of God. We were warned so we are without excuse.
Thanks for the discussion Blade, it seems to have ended in a stalemate.

Probverbs 25:2..."It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

This should clear up who was hiding(concealing) things.....GOD, for WHO???????--->Kings,,,,,(us the Church (body of Christ))

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2020, 07:19:24 pm »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband, Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the Wilderness. 

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Geoff

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2020, 06:34:38 am »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband, Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the Wilderness. 

Blade

True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.

I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job.  :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the research points us in one direction...

Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2020, 05:48:19 pm »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband, Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the Wilderness. 

Blade

True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.

I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job.  :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the research points us in one direction...

Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.

I just don;'t understand what you are trying to say...That Heli is not Mary's Father?

are you trying to decide if there were TWO Josephs?
That Heli is Joseph's father. Luke (3:23, KJV)
That Jacob is Joseph's Father. (Mat 1:16, KJV)

What are you trying to say?

Mat 1:16 (KJV).
]."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

OK, here we Know that:
 1. Jacob is the Father of Joseph? right?????
2. Joseph is the Husband of Mary?   right?????
3. Mary is the Mother of Jesus ?????   right???

Are we on the same page to this point?????

Luke 3:23..(KJV)...
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

OK, Here we see that:

1. Jesus is the Son of Joseph ("as was supposed" according to customs-Adopted)
2. Joseph is the Father-in-law of Heli.
3. Joseph (the father of Jesus) is the son of Heli.

OK,   where are you at right here?


Let me add two more item to this discussion.

1. Both Matthew and Luke genealogies are identical from Adam to Abraham.


2. "The term in Luke 3:23 is nomizo in Greek: reckoned as by law. Joseph was adopted by Heli in accordance to the exception in the Torah for inheritance through brotherless sisters given to Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11; Joshua 17:3-6; Ezra 2:61; cf. Nehemiah 7:63; Numbers 32:41; 1 Chronicles 2:21-23, 34-35). "  (Koinonia House,The Gospel in Quadraphonic:)

I really would like to understand your rejection of whatever it is that you are trying to say...Please help me understand your postion(s) on these two scriptures..


Blade





1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2020, 10:30:54 pm »
There is a really good book in my opinion that covers the genealogy and the known historical facts of Jesus of Nazareth.  It is insightful at the same time as being controversial.   It is more academic than theological. 

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2020, 06:31:00 am »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband, Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the Wilderness. 

Blade

True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.

I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job.  :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the research points us in one direction...

Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.

I just don;'t understand what you are trying to say...That Heli is not Mary's Father?

are you trying to decide if there were TWO Josephs?
That Heli is Joseph's father. Luke (3:23, KJV)
That Jacob is Joseph's Father. (Mat 1:16, KJV)

What are you trying to say?

Mat 1:16 (KJV).
]."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

OK, here we Know that:
 1. Jacob is the Father of Joseph? right?????
2. Joseph is the Husband of Mary?   right?????
3. Mary is the Mother of Jesus ?????   right???

Are we on the same page to this point?????

Luke 3:23..(KJV)...
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

OK, Here we see that:

1. Jesus is the Son of Joseph ("as was supposed" according to customs-Adopted)
2. Joseph is the Father-in-law of Heli.
3. Joseph (the father of Jesus) is the son of Heli.

OK,   where are you at right here?


Let me add two more item to this discussion.

1. Both Matthew and Luke genealogies are identical from Adam to Abraham.


2. "The term in Luke 3:23 is nomizo in Greek: reckoned as by law. Joseph was adopted by Heli in accordance to the exception in the Torah for inheritance through brotherless sisters given to Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11; Joshua 17:3-6; Ezra 2:61; cf. Nehemiah 7:63; Numbers 32:41; 1 Chronicles 2:21-23, 34-35). "  (Koinonia House,The Gospel in Quadraphonic:)

I really would like to understand your rejection of whatever it is that you are trying to say...Please help me understand your postion(s) on these two scriptures..


Blade

Blade.
Okay, I'm saying that Luke is the authority I accept as the Divinely inspired version of events. If one reads the first three chapters of Luke without any preconceived notions about Jesus' parentage, taking into account the promises made to David concerning his posterity and reading the account of Mary's visitation by the angel Gabriel, one can only come to the conclusion that Jesus' conception was made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit alone. Joseph, the son of Heli was his father but had zero physical involvement in his conception.
Matthew's genealogical record is flawed in so many ways that it is impossible that it was Divinely inspired, let alone the dubious references to fulfilment of prophecy. But then, maybe you think there's a reasonable explanation based on... :)

So there you go, you asked, I gave. Make of it what you will. I'm thinking this will be goodbye on this topic... 

Geoff.

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2020, 06:36:22 am »
There is a really good book in my opinion that covers the genealogy and the known historical facts of Jesus of Nazareth.  It is insightful at the same time as being controversial.   It is more academic than theological.
And the name of that book would be?

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2020, 06:29:27 pm »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband, Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the Wilderness. 

Blade

True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.

I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job.  :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the research points us in one direction...

Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.

I just don;'t understand what you are trying to say...That Heli is not Mary's Father?

are you trying to decide if there were TWO Josephs?
That Heli is Joseph's father. Luke (3:23, KJV)
That Jacob is Joseph's Father. (Mat 1:16, KJV)

What are you trying to say?

Mat 1:16 (KJV).
]."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

OK, here we Know that:
 1. Jacob is the Father of Joseph? right?????
2. Joseph is the Husband of Mary?   right?????
3. Mary is the Mother of Jesus ?????   right???

Are we on the same page to this point?????

Luke 3:23..(KJV)...
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

OK, Here we see that:

1. Jesus is the Son of Joseph ("as was supposed" according to customs-Adopted)
2. Joseph is the Father-in-law of Heli.
3. Joseph (the father of Jesus) is the son of Heli.

OK,   where are you at right here?


Let me add two more item to this discussion.

1. Both Matthew and Luke genealogies are identical from Adam to Abraham.


2. "The term in Luke 3:23 is nomizo in Greek: reckoned as by law. Joseph was adopted by Heli in accordance to the exception in the Torah for inheritance through brotherless sisters given to Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11; Joshua 17:3-6; Ezra 2:61; cf. Nehemiah 7:63; Numbers 32:41; 1 Chronicles 2:21-23, 34-35). "  (Koinonia House,The Gospel in Quadraphonic:)

I really would like to understand your rejection of whatever it is that you are trying to say...Please help me understand your postion(s) on these two scriptures..


Blade

Blade.
Okay, I'm saying that Luke is the authority I accept as the Divinely inspired version of events. If one reads the first three chapters of Luke without any preconceived notions about Jesus' parentage, taking into account the promises made to David concerning his posterity and reading the account of Mary's visitation by the angel Gabriel, one can only come to the conclusion that Jesus' conception was made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit alone. Joseph, the son of Heli was his father but had zero physical involvement in his conception.
Matthew's genealogical record is flawed in so many ways that it is impossible that it was Divinely inspired, let alone the dubious references to fulfilment of prophecy. But then, maybe you think there's a reasonable explanation based on... :)

So there you go, you asked, I gave. Make of it what you will. I'm thinking this will be goodbye on this topic... 

Geoff.

If you insist Geoff we can terminate this thread. However, I assure you I was only simply trying (with an open mind) to understand you thought patterns on this subject....

Now you opened up another stream, Matthew. As you said:
"Matthew's genealogical record is flawed in so many ways that it is impossible that it was Divinely inspired, let alone the dubious references to fulfilment of prophecy. "

What is your proof of what you say...?????


"dubious references to fulfullment of Prophecy" is another stream but it can wait until another time.

Blade








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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2020, 05:48:39 am »
Quote
Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a different thread should you wish it.

Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.

However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli "assumption" as you called it....

In Luke 3:23.(KJV) ."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as given to you by GOD himself....

"AS WAS SUPPOSED"   meaning..νομίζω nomízō, nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.

So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law  adopted......

Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage :   to hold by custom or usage, own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose

Hope you have a good evening.


Blade


Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not wrap it up quite so soon...

Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed" in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was Joseph's actual son.

G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13

Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Next.

Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24  Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25  Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26  Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27  Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28  Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29  Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30  Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32  Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33  Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35  Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36  Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37  Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or "assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?

Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1  Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2  Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3  It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of Joseph....

Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.

Jesus is the  legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli, according to customs.....

We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.

Blade

Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds?  :)

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband, Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the Wilderness. 

Blade

True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.

I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job.  :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the research points us in one direction...

Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.

I just don;'t understand what you are trying to say...That Heli is not Mary's Father?

are you trying to decide if there were TWO Josephs?
That Heli is Joseph's father. Luke (3:23, KJV)
That Jacob is Joseph's Father. (Mat 1:16, KJV)

What are you trying to say?

Mat 1:16 (KJV).
]."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

OK, here we Know that:
 1. Jacob is the Father of Joseph? right?????
2. Joseph is the Husband of Mary?   right?????
3. Mary is the Mother of Jesus ?????   right???

Are we on the same page to this point?????

Luke 3:23..(KJV)...
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

OK, Here we see that:

1. Jesus is the Son of Joseph ("as was supposed" according to customs-Adopted)
2. Joseph is the Father-in-law of Heli.
3. Joseph (the father of Jesus) is the son of Heli.

OK,   where are you at right here?


Let me add two more item to this discussion.

1. Both Matthew and Luke genealogies are identical from Adam to Abraham.


2. "The term in Luke 3:23 is nomizo in Greek: reckoned as by law. Joseph was adopted by Heli in accordance to the exception in the Torah for inheritance through brotherless sisters given to Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11; Joshua 17:3-6; Ezra 2:61; cf. Nehemiah 7:63; Numbers 32:41; 1 Chronicles 2:21-23, 34-35). "  (Koinonia House,The Gospel in Quadraphonic:)

I really would like to understand your rejection of whatever it is that you are trying to say...Please help me understand your postion(s) on these two scriptures..


Blade

Blade.
Okay, I'm saying that Luke is the authority I accept as the Divinely inspired version of events. If one reads the first three chapters of Luke without any preconceived notions about Jesus' parentage, taking into account the promises made to David concerning his posterity and reading the account of Mary's visitation by the angel Gabriel, one can only come to the conclusion that Jesus' conception was made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit alone. Joseph, the son of Heli was his father but had zero physical involvement in his conception.
Matthew's genealogical record is flawed in so many ways that it is impossible that it was Divinely inspired, let alone the dubious references to fulfilment of prophecy. But then, maybe you think there's a reasonable explanation based on... :)

So there you go, you asked, I gave. Make of it what you will. I'm thinking this will be goodbye on this topic... 

Geoff.

If you insist Geoff we can terminate this thread. However, I assure you I was only simply trying (with an open mind) to understand you thought patterns on this subject....

Now you opened up another stream, Matthew. As you said:
"Matthew's genealogical record is flawed in so many ways that it is impossible that it was Divinely inspired, let alone the dubious references to fulfilment of prophecy. "

What is your proof of what you say...?????


"dubious references to fulfullment of Prophecy" is another stream but it can wait until another time.

Blade

I'll have to get back to you Blade as I'll be out of range for a several days.
I don't want to terminate, I just didn't expect you would want to continue after I explained that position.
 

Wayne Gabler

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2020, 08:53:54 pm »
I would agree that Luke contains the names of Mary's fathers tree. This is more about putting some names to the books that match the witnesses rather than which Scribe copied the version that was used in 323AD.

Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain two stories that only 3 Apostles saw, Peter and the brothers James and John. The Gospel of John was written by the 2nd disciple of his that followed Jesus that did not become an Apostle, so the term Gospel of John the Baptist should be applied. This verse might help.

Lu:24:10:
It was Mary Magdalene,
and Joanna,
and Mary the mother of James,
and other women that were with them,
which told these things unto the apostles.

Bladerunner

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2020, 10:04:32 pm »
I would agree that Luke contains the names of Mary's fathers tree. This is more about putting some names to the books that match the witnesses rather than which Scribe copied the version that was used in 323AD.

Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain two stories that only 3 Apostles saw, Peter and the brothers James and John. The Gospel of John was written by the 2nd disciple of his that followed Jesus that did not become an Apostle, so the term Gospel of John the Baptist should be applied. This verse might help.

Lu:24:10:
It was Mary Magdalene,
and Joanna,
and Mary the mother of James,
and other women that were with them,
which told these things unto the apostles.

there were four apostles present. You missed Andrew. 
But Matthew, Mark and  Luke, the three synoptic Gospels were thus authored by the one who told the Apostles in the first place.....John a separate but the same gospel.

Matthew was a tax Collector and a Jew....Therefore we see Jesus through Jewish Eyes and thoughts.

Mark was a pen writer (secretary) and thus we see Jesus as a Servant.

Luke, A doctor gives  a view of Jesus as a Man

John the same (beloved) John in Revelation, shows us Jesus Christ as GOD!

All  four Gospels are GOD authored with all the personality and character traits of each writer shown within the writing of each Book.

* you said: "which Scribe copied the version that was used in 323AD."

What scribe......in 323 AD and your references....

Blade


« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 07:03:22 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

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The Genealogy of Jesus
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2020, 12:04:11 am »
I would agree that Luke contains the names of Mary's fathers tree. This is more about putting some names to the books that match the witnesses rather than which Scribe copied the version that was used in 323AD.

Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain two stories that only 3 Apostles saw, Peter and the brothers James and John. The Gospel of John was written by the 2nd disciple of his that followed Jesus that did not become an Apostle, so the term Gospel of John the Baptist should be applied. This verse might help.

Lu:24:10:
It was Mary Magdalene,
and Joanna,
and Mary the mother of James,
and other women that were with them,
which told these things unto the apostles.

so you deny the WORD of GOD and His POWER!

psa 12:6-7..(KJV).."The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. v7..Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Blade
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 08:06:57 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

patrick jane

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Re: The Genealogy of Jesus: Comments
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2020, 06:06:58 pm »

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/september/andrew-wilson-jesus-genealogies-matthew-luke.html








God Knew What He Was Doing When He Gave Jesus Two Family Trees










How to sort out the many disparities between the genealogies of Matthew and Luke.


Problems in Scripture work like speed bumps: They may be frustrating, and they can do damage to the unwary, but they effectively slow us down and focus our attention. Tensions provoke thought. Apparent contradictions force us to wrestle with texts in greater detail. When God inspired them, he knew what he was doing.

Studying the Gospels, we immediately encounter the problem of major differences between the genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. Matthew 1 lists 42 generations going back to Abraham; Luke 3 has 77 generations going back to Adam. Of the dozens of names between David and Jesus, only five appear on both lists. Worse, Jesus has two different paternal grandfathers: Jacob (Matt. 1:16) and Heli (Luke 3:23).

Efforts to sort out the disparities often focus on Matthew’s side, partly because his genealogy looks more theologically motivated—the numerous gaps, the women who feature, the three groups of 14, and so on. Luke, we assume, is giving “just the facts,” while Matthew is fiddling with them to make a point. But this demeans both the historian in Matthew and the theologian in Luke. I think Luke’s genealogy has a theological agenda just as strong as Matthew’s, if not more so.

Consider how he lists 77 generations from Adam to Christ. That number points to the Sabbath. It reminds us of the 77-fold vengeance of Lamech (Gen. 4:24) and the 77-fold forgiveness of Jesus (Matt. 18:22). It evokes the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:8–55), observed once for every seven sets of seven years. Jesus proclaims his fulfillment of the Jubliee promise in Luke 4:16–21, a development foreshadowed two chapters earlier, when the summons to report home for a census recalls the Jubilee command to return to one’s “family property” (Lev. 25:10).

It’s also noteworthy that Luke introduces his genealogy not at the start of Jesus’ life but at the start of his ministry, when he was “about thirty years old” (3:23). Thirty is a striking number. Priests began their ministry at that age (Num. 4:3), the same age at which David became king (2 Sam. 5:4) and Ezekiel saw prophetic visions of God (Ezek. 1:1). By inserting his genealogy at this stage, Luke is connecting Jesus’ ancestry to his ministry as prophet, priest, and king. By tracing it back to Adam, not just Abraham, he portrays Jesus as a prophet to the nations, a priest for all peoples, and king of the whole earth.

Then there is the question of Jesus’ paternal grandfather(s). Ever since the early third century, people have speculated that Joseph had two fathers, either because he was legally adopted or because he was the child of a levirate marriage. (In this Jewish custom, if a man died without children, his brother would marry the widow to preserve the family line.) If so, then Joseph was the son of both Heli and Jacob. That always sounded like apologetic desperation to me. But then I started noticing all the other references in Luke 3 to levirate marriage or legal adoption.

One relates to Herod and his brother Philip (Luke 3:1). Herod had married Philip’s wife, angering observant Jews—and eventually getting John the Baptist beheaded (Mark 6:17). So Luke’s account of Jesus’ adult life begins with a man enacting an adulterous “levirate marriage” while his brother was still alive.

Another concerns Jesus himself: “He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph” (Luke 3:23). Legally, Jesus was Joseph’s son, but Joseph was not his biological father. As Gabriel explained to Mary, Jesus would be called “Son of the Most High” and “Son of God” (1:32, 35).

We even find an example in John the Baptist, who famously contrasts himself with one “the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie” (3:16). Untying a sandal strap was the key moment in the halizah, the process that released a man from levirate marriage (Deut. 25:9; Ruth 4:7). Perhaps, as Gregory the Great argued, John was declaring himself not just beneath Christ but also unworthy to displace him as Israel’s true husband. John is the best man, not the bridegroom (John 3:29).
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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