Author Topic: Amillenialism vs Pre-Trib Millennialism: Comments (Read 20718 times)

guest2 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 14, 2018, 08:40:02 pm »

Daniels 70th week already happened.
Christ was crucified in the middle of it.

guest8 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 14, 2018, 09:08:57 pm »

Quote from: 1Mind1Spirit on August 14, 2018, 08:40:02 pm

Daniels 70th week already happened.
Christ was crucified in the middle of it.

Hey 1mind1spirit.. I remember you from TF. Amillennialism isn't it.? Thought so

Have a good evening

Blade

Billy Evmur · « **Reply #28 on:** August 15, 2018, 05:01:14 am »

Antichrist will have reigned, will have opposed everything called god [that IS the great tribulation] and seated himself in the temple declaring himself to be God, THEN the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and destroys Antichrist...this is the same coming of the Lord in which we meet Him in the air.

So this is the end of Antichrist not his first revealing.

The mistake [as I see it] is in equating Tribulation with Wrath of God.

Jesus says in the little apocalypses AFTER the tribulation of those days....they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and gather His elect....the tribes of the earth will mourn etc. He then describes what amounts to the wrath of God.

The same with John, the same with 2.Thess.1&2....definitely Antichrist comes first, and with him the most horrendous persecution ever...that IS the Great Tribulation.

Billy Evmur · « **Reply #29 on:** August 15, 2018, 05:08:48 am »

There's a trick to prophecy, I hope this will be a blessing.

Make Revelations fit into the prophecies of open scripture, as in Paul and the little apocalypses of Jesus along with the OT prophets, don't try to make the open prophecies fit into Revelations....there is where people get tangled.

Everything WE as the church need to know is in the open scriptures, a lot of Revs concerns the Jews.

Sasha · « **Reply #30 on:** August 15, 2018, 05:23:20 am »

Quote from: Billy Evmur on August 15, 2018, 05:08:48 am

There's a trick to prophecy, I hope this will be a blessing.

Make Revelations fit into the prophecies of open scripture, as in Paul and the little apocalypses of Jesus along with the OT prophets, don't try to make the open prophecies fit into Revelations....there is where people get tangled.

Everything WE as the church need to know is in the open scriptures, a lot of Revs concerns the Jews.

Well, that is A very true statement! Zechariah echoes much of Revelation and has some things that have already occurred, too. Isaiah and other books landscape multiple prophecies that have deep text that prophesies several different time periods and such.

Well said.

guest8 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 15, 2018, 06:44:52 pm »

Quote from: joechan82 on August 13, 2018, 07:27:34 pm

Quote from: Bladerunner on August 13, 2018, 01:05:44 am
Quote from: joechan82 on August 12, 2018, 10:05:51 pm
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.

All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the 144,000 .

The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the millennium.

The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!

The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.

Blade

Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them. The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!"

I completely agree with this, but it fits with pretribulation or pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation, where in the world to all the saved people come from that are beheaded etc?

Joe, I probably already answered this and if I did, disregard this as it most likely a duplicate.lol You speak of the 7 trumpets as the beginning of the God's wrath? God's wrath begin REv 6:1. Jesus referred to the last half of Daniel's week as the Great Tribulation. Well it is only one third of the problem. During the 6 seals, 1/4 of the population and earth (fish, etc) will die. DUring the trumpets, 1/3 of the remaining population and earth (fish, etc.) will die. During the final third of the Judgements of GOD. it gives no number of dead on population but all the fish, etc in the oceans will die. OH!, China will lose her 200 million man army and all those who have taken the mark of the beast will die. I will assume they will all die at the same time. When Jesus speaks that WORD? Only those who have not taken the mark and have survived all of God's wrath will be left.

IF you believe in the rapture, and believe it is pre-wrath, then look to prophecy to answer your questions? Hope this help.

Amellinnialism is Heresy. It actually calls GOD a liar! Please don't do that route?

Blade

Sasha · « **Reply #32 on:** August 15, 2018, 09:21:48 pm »

Quote from: 1Mind1Spirit on August 14, 2018, 08:40:02 pm

Daniels 70th week already happened.
Christ was crucified in the middle of it.

1Mind1Spirit

I just wanted to let ya know I’ve been called a Hairy tick before and I think you’re awesome.

joechan82 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 16, 2018, 10:54:31 am »

* God has not left HIS people behind. This shown throughout prophecy in the OT and NT. The Covenants are and will be in effect. especially GEn 12:3. oh, and GOD is in control, HE left them.

*If you rightly divide the Bible, everything will make sense and be easier to read ACTs 2:1 was the beginning of the CHurch because that was the day the Holy Spirit came into the Church.

*These are people that are left behind. You probably know some that believe in Jesus but do not believe in everythin He has said.
the 144,000 will evangelize around the world and bring in multitudes . They themselves will be martyred. The two Witnesses will bring in many believers after they are rapture to heaven. These will also Die in Christ. and the OT saints (their souls are in Heaven already) will be resurrected from their graves unto life again. They too are redeemed.

Mat 24:29-31 is the 2nd coming of Jesus WITH his elect.(Notice that all peoples of the earth see him.). 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the Rapture and only the Church those who are alive and those who have died in him with see him. A very small crowd. Notice He does not come to earth but to the clouds and He Comes FOR his ELECT. These are NOT the same.

I am sorry JOE, There was just no easy way to say it.

Blade

[/color]
[/quote]
Blade,
Don't worry about trying to say things the easy way. I appreciate you being direct.
As to the idea of Matt:24 and 1Thes being similar, but not the same, I look to Rev 1:4-8. Notice the clouds here too. He comes in the clouds AND every eye shall see Him.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

John wrote to the seven churches in Asia, which I believe were literal, historical churches, just like churches are today. Look what John tells them to look for. It is a coming of Christ with clouds where every eye shall see him. Please keep in mind that my main thrust in this discussion is not to convince you of my position, but for you to see that I can hold to my beliefs and still be a Bible believer. I consider you to be a Bible believer.

joechan82 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 16, 2018, 11:01:25 am »

Quote from: Billy Evmur on August 15, 2018, 05:01:14 am

Antichrist will have reigned, will have opposed everything called god [that IS the great tribulation] and seated himself in the temple declaring himself to be God, THEN the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and destroys Antichrist...this is the same coming of the Lord in which we meet Him in the air.

So this is the end of Antichrist not his first revealing.

The mistake [as I see it] is in equating Tribulation with Wrath of God.

Jesus says in the little apocalypses AFTER the tribulation of those days....they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and gather His elect....the tribes of the earth will mourn etc. He then describes what amounts to the wrath of God.

The same with John, the same with 2.Thess.1&2....definitely Antichrist comes first, and with him the most horrendous persecution ever...that IS the Great Tribulation.

Hello Billy,
Tribulation and wrath are definitely not the same. Calling Daniel's 70th week "The seven years of tribulation/great tribulation" is misleading. Controlling the lexicon controls the argument, so I am carefull to be precise in my terms. Do you think we differ as to when wrath begins? I bet we do. I say it begins at the last trump, which I say is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Tell me what you think. Appreciate your input.

guest8 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 16, 2018, 08:07:44 pm »

Quote from: 1Mind1Spirit on August 14, 2018, 08:40:02 pm

Daniels 70th week already happened.
Christ was crucified in the middle of it.

your kidding right.... Christ was crucified in 32 AD, Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD.
that is a full 38 years (oh, look at this,,,the exact amount of time Israel spent in the wilderness. Another prophecy fulfilled.)

How did Daniel's 7oth week already happen pray tell?

Blade

guest8 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 16, 2018, 09:22:26 pm »

Quote from: joechan82 on August 16, 2018, 10:54:31 am

* God has not left HIS people behind. This shown throughout prophecy in the OT and NT. The Covenants are and will be in effect. especially GEn 12:3. oh, and GOD is in control, HE left them.

*If you rightly divide the Bible, everything will make sense and be easier to read ACTs 2:1 was the beginning of the CHurch because that was the day the Holy Spirit came into the Church.

*These are people that are left behind. You probably know some that believe in Jesus but do not believe in everythin He has said.
the 144,000 will evangelize around the world and bring in multitudes . They themselves will be martyred. The two Witnesses will bring in many believers after they are rapture to heaven. These will also Die in Christ. and the OT saints (their souls are in Heaven already) will be resurrected from their graves unto life again. They too are redeemed.

Mat 24:29-31 is the 2nd coming of Jesus WITH his elect.(Notice that all peoples of the earth see him.). 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the Rapture and only the Church those who are alive and those who have died in him with see him. A very small crowd. Notice He does not come to earth but to the clouds and He Comes FOR his ELECT. These are NOT the same.

I am sorry JOE, There was just no easy way to say it.

Blade

[/color]

Blade,
Don't worry about trying to say things the easy way. I appreciate you being direct.
As to the idea of Matt:24 and 1Thes being similar, but not the same, I look to Rev 1:4-8. Notice the clouds here too. He comes in the clouds AND every eye shall see Him.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

John wrote to the seven churches in Asia, which I believe were literal, historical churches, just like churches are today. Look what John tells them to look for. It is a coming of Christ with clouds where every eye shall see him. Please keep in mind that my main thrust in this discussion is not to convince you of my position, but for you to see that I can hold to my beliefs and still be a Bible believer. I consider you to be a Bible believer.
[/quote]

Yes, Joe we both believe in Jesus Christ. To those that cannot read or have access to HIS WORD, this may be enough. However, we ()I think) are in a little different situation. One of us is wrong and the consequences will not be good.

Hope you have a Blessed evening

Blade

Sasha · « **Reply #37 on:** August 16, 2018, 10:26:40 pm »

Quote from: Bladerunner on August 16, 2018, 09:22:26 pm

Quote from: joechan82 on August 16, 2018, 10:54:31 am
* God has not left HIS people behind. This shown throughout prophecy in the OT and NT. The Covenants are and will be in effect. especially GEn 12:3. oh, and GOD is in control, HE left them.

*If you rightly divide the Bible, everything will make sense and be easier to read ACTs 2:1 was the beginning of the CHurch because that was the day the Holy Spirit came into the Church.

*These are people that are left behind. You probably know some that believe in Jesus but do not believe in everythin He has said.
the 144,000 will evangelize around the world and bring in multitudes . They themselves will be martyred. The two Witnesses will bring in many believers after they are rapture to heaven. These will also Die in Christ. and the OT saints (their souls are in Heaven already) will be resurrected from their graves unto life again. They too are redeemed.

Mat 24:29-31 is the 2nd coming of Jesus WITH his elect.(Notice that all peoples of the earth see him.). 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the Rapture and only the Church those who are alive and those who have died in him with see him. A very small crowd. Notice He does not come to earth but to the clouds and He Comes FOR his ELECT. These are NOT the same.

I am sorry JOE, There was just no easy way to say it.

Blade

[/color]

Quote
Blade,
Don't worry about trying to say things the easy way. I appreciate you being direct.
As to the idea of Matt:24 and 1Thes being similar, but not the same, I look to Rev 1:4-8. Notice the clouds here too. He comes in the clouds AND every eye shall see Him.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

John wrote to the seven churches in Asia, which I believe were literal, historical churches, just like churches are today. Look what John tells them to look for. It is a coming of Christ with clouds where every eye shall see him. Please keep in mind that my main thrust in this discussion is not to convince you of my position, but for you to see that I can hold to my beliefs and still be a Bible believer. I consider you to be a Bible believer.

Yes, Joe we both believe in Jesus Christ. To those that cannot read or have access to HIS WORD, this may be enough. However, we ()I think) are in a little different situation. One of us is wrong and the consequences will not be good.

Hope you have a Blessed evening

Blade

A friendly reminder that eschatology doesn’t save. I’ve ridden on some drastic campaigns in my day, but to be sincere, I always sit back and think, “hey, Jesus has got His bride and bodies backs.”

Disagreement on finer points of musterion don’t equal spiritual consequences. Some people will have to take some butthurt-be-gone and say; “Oh, so that’s what that meant, Jesus.”

I always remind myself that no one expected God to die for them, back in the day. That said, it’s going to be a real nail biter, however it all plays out and none of us really know what aspects of our understanding will serve up humble pie to us.

My two cents.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Blade.

- Sasha

guest8 · « **Reply #38 on:** August 17, 2018, 11:58:43 am »

Quote from: Sasha on August 16, 2018, 10:26:40 pm

Quote from: Bladerunner on August 16, 2018, 09:22:26 pm
Quote from: joechan82 on August 16, 2018, 10:54:31 am
* God has not left HIS people behind. This shown throughout prophecy in the OT and NT. The Covenants are and will be in effect. especially GEn 12:3. oh, and GOD is in control, HE left them.

*If you rightly divide the Bible, everything will make sense and be easier to read ACTs 2:1 was the beginning of the CHurch because that was the day the Holy Spirit came into the Church.

*These are people that are left behind. You probably know some that believe in Jesus but do not believe in everythin He has said.
the 144,000 will evangelize around the world and bring in multitudes . They themselves will be martyred. The two Witnesses will bring in many believers after they are rapture to heaven. These will also Die in Christ. and the OT saints (their souls are in Heaven already) will be resurrected from their graves unto life again. They too are redeemed.

Mat 24:29-31 is the 2nd coming of Jesus WITH his elect.(Notice that all peoples of the earth see him.). 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the Rapture and only the Church those who are alive and those who have died in him with see him. A very small crowd. Notice He does not come to earth but to the clouds and He Comes FOR his ELECT. These are NOT the same.

I am sorry JOE, There was just no easy way to say it.

Blade

[/color]

Quote
Blade,
Don't worry about trying to say things the easy way. I appreciate you being direct.
As to the idea of Matt:24 and 1Thes being similar, but not the same, I look to Rev 1:4-8. Notice the clouds here too. He comes in the clouds AND every eye shall see Him.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

John wrote to the seven churches in Asia, which I believe were literal, historical churches, just like churches are today. Look what John tells them to look for. It is a coming of Christ with clouds where every eye shall see him. Please keep in mind that my main thrust in this discussion is not to convince you of my position, but for you to see that I can hold to my beliefs and still be a Bible believer. I consider you to be a Bible believer.

Yes, Joe we both believe in Jesus Christ. To those that cannot read or have access to HIS WORD, this may be enough. However, we ()I think) are in a little different situation. One of us is wrong and the consequences will not be good.

Hope you have a Blessed evening

Blade

A friendly reminder that eschatology doesn’t save. I’ve ridden on some drastic campaigns in my day, but to be sincere, I always sit back and think, “hey, Jesus has got His bride and bodies backs.”

Disagreement on finer points of musterion don’t equal spiritual consequences. Some people will have to take some butthurt-be-gone and say; “Oh, so that’s what that meant, Jesus.”

I always remind myself that no one expected God to die for them, back in the day. That said, it’s going to be a real nail biter, however it all plays out and none of us really know what aspects of our understanding will serve up humble pie to us.

My two cents.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Blade.

- Sasha

Thank you Sasha...If we were talking about the MAD dispensationalist, I would agree. I cannot see any difference in Acts 2 where 3000+ Jewsh people became part of the "body of Christ" or Acts 10 where the Gentiles began becoming part of the Body of Christ. It is not like Gentiles were not saved during the 'Age of the Law' or in the early days of ACTs 2 forward.

Did the Bible tells us that for the first time, the gentiles were saved in Acts 10? If it did, I missed it.

However, this disagreement will not affect Salvation. We all (here) are Brothers in Christ.

However, Post-rapture and Amellinnialism go hand in hand. Both remove major parts of the OT and NEW Testament (Gen 12 through Acts 2 then Rev 1 through REV 17.) in most cases 3/4 of the Bible is thrown out. Unlike the above where there is a simple disagreement on when the "Body of Christ" actually started, the Post and Amillennialism theologies seem to be disregarding the WORD of GOD. In both cases, there can be no Millennium. There is no marriage supper, there is no Bema Judgment seat and there is no sheep and goat judgments to name a few. For when God comes to earth for us, we have to come right back down. And is as John 14:3 states, How can we (his Church) be with him at all times and everywhere he is, if we are still on earth being persecuted and killed?

I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion and boy am I opinionated lol.. However, one of us in any opposing conversation will be wrong and it may (is up to Jesus) have dire consequences.

In my case, If I am wrong as a Pre-trib rapturist, then I will die (one way or the other) in Christ and nothing is lost as My soul will still go to heaven.

It is said in the Bible, that after the Pre-trib Rapture, the greatest revival the world has ever known will be during Daniel's 70th week. This will include those who received the Gospel by the 144,000, resulting in multitudes, tribes and nations converting including the 1/3 (remnant ) Jewish people who will convert to Jesus at the Abomination of Desolate.

Those left behind will know exactly what happened and WHY! They too will instantly be converted, and will have to die during Daniel's 70th week to PROVE their new beliefs.

Joe and I are just one of many examples of the differences in the Biblical world. This Forum has to present the Best arguments (from all sides) that it can to educate people about Jesus Christ and His Gospel and give them a reasonable guideline to make decisions on.

Is this what GOD wants us to DO?

I think so... so much for the penny I offer!

Hope you have a Blessed day, Sasha, my sister in Christ.

Blade

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Author Topic: Amillenialism vs Pre-Trib Millennialism: Comments (Read 20718 times)

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