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Author Topic: Amillenialism vs Pre-Trib Millennialism: Comments  (Read 8363 times)

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joechan82

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2018, 10:07:54 pm »
No. I was a Baptist before and I am still one today. About 20 years ago I was driving the car and my wife was reading the Bible out loud. She read
Rev 20:5-6  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I asked her to read it again. The part about the first resurrection caught my attention. When we got home I started trying to understand it. I kept this all to myself at first, because to be anything but pre-trib in my church is anathema. Eventually I asked a few close friends to show me my error. I wrote a small paper to help me organize my thoughts. I read many of the dispensationalists to see if I could be wrong. I read Things to Come by D. Pentecost, I read John MacArthur's book on it. I have read C. Ryrie, C. Larkin, and somebody else. Then I got on a forum to see what other thought about it. I learned from them. I don't know if I am pre-wrath or post-tribulation yet. My arguments may not be compelling to you, but I trust you will see that I at least do have some Bible or my position. I'm still saved. :)


Rev 20:5-6 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. v6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

"I ask that you read verse 4 and tell us what it means to you as it is connected with verses 5 and 6. v4."And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Let me touch on the 1st resurrection. Of, course Jesus Christ was first fruits of the 1st resurrection. There are several people of both races (Jewish and Gentiles) who are redeemed to Heaven during the first part of Daniel's 70th week. These are the "Body of Christ" represented by the Elders, The Martyred that are under the altar awaiting God to avenge them. We have the 144,000 who are very possibly left behind on purpose as they have to be sealed before the 1st seal is opened.  Then there are the Multitudes that are a result of the 144,000 which happen to have palms in their hands. This identifies them as Jewish. The palms is a symbol of Israel on the present day coins. By the way, the 144,000, the multitude and of course those that are under the altar are redeemed. All martyrs, having their heads removed before and during the first part of the tribulations.  Of course the two witness are removed from the earth. These are those that are part of the first fruits (the 1st resurrection)

Knowing this (if you agree or not), what is 20:4-6 saying to you!

BLade   


I got it. This is better. Sorry for the repetition, Blade.
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patrick jane

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 12:33:52 am »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.
To quote a post it's on TOP at the top right of the post you're quoting. Every other forum I've ever seen hast the quote/reply button at the bottom right, except this forum. Confusing but I'm used to it. Is that what you're talking about?
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Bladerunner

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2018, 12:42:18 am »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier

We agree there will be 2 resurrections!

The  1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)

The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers) to the Lake of Fire. That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended the 1st resurrection.

 When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st Resurrection began.

Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),

Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the 1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection. All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see Jesus as He is as we will be.

Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.

The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of the Abomination of Desolation will  be  protected by GOD in the Petra Mountains.  They are of mortal bodies.  They have the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely to be any unbelievers here).
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.
To quote a post it's on TOP at the top right of the post you're quoting. Every other forum I've ever seen hast the quote/reply button at the bottom right, except this forum. Confusing but I'm used to it. Is that what you're talking about?

 


1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Bladerunner

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 12:44:08 am »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier

We agree there will be 2 resurrections!

The  1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)

The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers) to the Lake of Fire. That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended the 1st resurrection.

 When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st Resurrection began.

Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),

Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the 1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection. All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see Jesus as He is as we will be.

Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.

The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of the Abomination of Desolation will  be  protected by GOD in the Petra Mountains.  They are of mortal bodies.  They have the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely to be any unbelievers here).

Whether we redeemed,  stay at the New Jerusalem (which is still in the third Heaven during the Millennium)or at the 5x50x50x50 mile temple grounds is unknown. I really won't mind either way.

Blade


1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Bladerunner

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2018, 01:05:44 am »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.

 All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the 144,000 .

The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the millennium.

The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!

The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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joechan82

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 06:55:20 pm »







These are the two main arguments of Escathology today.

The amellinnialism argument is usually associated with replacement theology which states that Israel forfeited their rights to the covenants given to them by GOD (Jehovah) in ancient times. Their covenants were therefore transferred to the Church (Body of Christ). Because of this, there will be no Millennial as we are in it and Jesus is ruling spiritually today.

Premillennialism argues that we are living during the Age of the Church and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is future to us. There are several disciplines associated with this argument.  They are Pre-Rapture, Mid Rapture or Post Rapture.  Post-Rapture had its day in the mid 1900's but disappeared when the things did not get any better as was prophesied. It is coming back with a vengeance.

Through literal, historical and grammatical interpretations of the Bible (KJV) pre-mil, pre-trib is the only game in town.

Blade


One of my most influential verses in posture are the following...

Acts 1:6-12

But zoom in on 9-11 then focus on Verse 12 and carry locational Revelation from verse 12 into Zechariah 14:1-4. Now pair Zechariah 14:4ís locational revelation and circumstances with Acts 1:12, then consider the Apostles Question to Christ in Acts 1:6-8, followed by Chriatís Answer.

If you take it literally and catch it, it should be a Holy moly moment.

All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.

Thatís my opinion, of course.  I am aware it can be read many different ways, but see if you can see it.

I just did as you suggested. Olivet is one of those special places. Do you think the disciples went there to wait for Christ's return in Acts 1:12. Or maybe to pray for divine guidance before going into all the world? Maybe they went there often to wait. I have friends who have gone to Israel and told me that it was life changing to walk where He walked.
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joechan82

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 06:59:05 pm »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier

We agree there will be 2 resurrections!

The  1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)

The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers) to the Lake of Fire. That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended the 1st resurrection.

 When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st Resurrection began.

Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),

Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the 1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection. All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see Jesus as He is as we will be.

Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.

The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of the Abomination of Desolation will  be  protected by GOD in the Petra Mountains.  They are of mortal bodies.  They have the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely to be any unbelievers here).

Whether we redeemed,  stay at the New Jerusalem (which is still in the third Heaven during the Millennium)or at the 5x50x50x50 mile temple grounds is unknown. I really won't mind either way.

Blade



Yes, you are right. We seem to be in total agreement on those points.
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joechan82

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 07:27:34 pm »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.

 All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the 144,000 .

The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the millennium.

The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!

The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.

Blade


Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them. The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 
Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 
Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 
Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 

You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!"

I completely agree with this, but it fits with pretribulation or pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation, where in the world to all the saved people come from that are beheaded etc?
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Sasha

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2018, 08:08:13 pm »







These are the two main arguments of Escathology today.

The amellinnialism argument is usually associated with replacement theology which states that Israel forfeited their rights to the covenants given to them by GOD (Jehovah) in ancient times. Their covenants were therefore transferred to the Church (Body of Christ). Because of this, there will be no Millennial as we are in it and Jesus is ruling spiritually today.

Premillennialism argues that we are living during the Age of the Church and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is future to us. There are several disciplines associated with this argument.  They are Pre-Rapture, Mid Rapture or Post Rapture.  Post-Rapture had its day in the mid 1900's but disappeared when the things did not get any better as was prophesied. It is coming back with a vengeance.

Through literal, historical and grammatical interpretations of the Bible (KJV) pre-mil, pre-trib is the only game in town.

Blade


One of my most influential verses in posture are the following...

Acts 1:6-12

But zoom in on 9-11 then focus on Verse 12 and carry locational Revelation from verse 12 into Zechariah 14:1-4. Now pair Zechariah 14:4ís locational revelation and circumstances with Acts 1:12, then consider the Apostles Question to Christ in Acts 1:6-8, followed by Chriatís Answer.

If you take it literally and catch it, it should be a Holy moly moment.

All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.

Thatís my opinion, of course.  I am aware it can be read many different ways, but see if you can see it.

I just did as you suggested. Olivet is one of those special places. Do you think the disciples went there to wait for Christ's return in Acts 1:12. Or maybe to pray for divine guidance before going into all the world? Maybe they went there often to wait. I have friends who have gone to Israel and told me that it was life changing to walk where He walked.

How could they not have.  The Son ascended from there.  Now that you say it, I wish I could go there!

Good point Joe!
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patrick jane

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2018, 08:09:49 pm »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.

 All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the 144,000 .

The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the millennium.

The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!

The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.

Blade


Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them. The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!"

I completely agree with this, but it fits with pretribulation or pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation, where in the world to all the saved people come from that are beheaded etc?
I'd like to tell you what I've run into with MAD. It's hard to explain for me by typing and other excuses but I know by reading them and through right division. I think I'm Acts 9 and that is 1 program 1 dispensation 1 unit. Here is a link and Acts 9 is on top with the Acts 9 and Acts 9/28 and Acts 28 but does not include Acts 2 or Acts 13.

Very confusing to some. I'm still studying and I study with Grace Ambassadors and post in my thread from Justin Johnson. I watch/listen to a lot of his videos too. I know you're busy and I jump around a bit in my thread but try reading a post sometimes. I only feature 5 Youtube channels and they are one and so is Joe at TF, lol.


Chart I'm talking about :
https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/dispensational-timelines-acts-9-acts-28-acts-9-28-hybrid1.pdf

Other Charts :
https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/bible-timeline-other-study-aids/


Grace Ambassadors Youtube channel :
https://www.youtube.com/user/GraceAmbassador


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Bladerunner

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2018, 09:48:16 pm »
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you a better answer.

The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.

 All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the 144,000 .

The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the millennium.

The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!

The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.

Blade


Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them. The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!"

I completely agree with this, but it fits with pre-tribulation or pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation, where in the world to all the saved people come from that are beheaded etc?

Where did it go... I had written a fews down and now it is gone. Oh-well...

Joe, I ask that you read these points.

* God has not left HIS people behind. This shown throughout prophecy in the OT and NT. The Covenants are and will be in effect. especially GEn 12:3.   oh, and GOD is in control, HE left them.

*If you rightly divide the Bible, everything will make sense and be easier to read ACTs 2:1 was the beginning of the CHurch because that was the day the Holy Spirit came into the Church.

*These are people that are left behind. You probably know some that believe in Jesus but do not believe in everythin He has said.
 the 144,000 will evangelize around the world and bring in multitudes . They themselves will be martyred. The two Witnesses will bring in many believers after they are rapture to heaven. These will also Die in Christ.  and the OT saints (their souls are in Heaven already) will be resurrected from their graves unto life again. They too are redeemed.

The Jews that flee Jerusalem when the Antichrist performed the Abomination of Desolate, will be protected by GOD (the Father) in the mountains of Petra. There He will feed and water them for the next 3. 5 years of Daniel's 70th week. These Jews will He give New Covenant, Jeremiah speaks of, into their hearts and removes all of their sins, forever. They will rule the Nation of Israel with Jesus during the millennium. Their Children will have 100 years to decide (to believe or Not to believe)

The last group are those that lived through Daniel's 70th week. They are the "maybe" believers as all the unbelievers are dead. These did not take the mark of the beast but managed to survive.  They will be given land and will turn their swords into plows.
They will have 100 years to make a decision (to believe or Not to Believe).

The Church (body of Christ) saints will judge from Thrones with Jesus

The Tribulation Saints will serve the Lord day and night. (at what I do not know)

It does not say what the 144,000 will be doing.

Blade







1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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joechan82

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2018, 04:17:49 pm »







These are the two main arguments of Escathology today.

The amellinnialism argument is usually associated with replacement theology which states that Israel forfeited their rights to the covenants given to them by GOD (Jehovah) in ancient times. Their covenants were therefore transferred to the Church (Body of Christ). Because of this, there will be no Millennial as we are in it and Jesus is ruling spiritually today.

Premillennialism argues that we are living during the Age of the Church and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is future to us. There are several disciplines associated with this argument.  They are Pre-Rapture, Mid Rapture or Post Rapture.  Post-Rapture had its day in the mid 1900's but disappeared when the things did not get any better as was prophesied. It is coming back with a vengeance.

Through literal, historical and grammatical interpretations of the Bible (KJV) pre-mil, pre-trib is the only game in town.

Blade


One of my most influential verses in posture are the following...

Acts 1:6-12

But zoom in on 9-11 then focus on Verse 12 and carry locational Revelation from verse 12 into Zechariah 14:1-4. Now pair Zechariah 14:4ís locational revelation and circumstances with Acts 1:12, then consider the Apostles Question to Christ in Acts 1:6-8, followed by Chriatís Answer.

If you take it literally and catch it, it should be a Holy moly moment.

All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.

Thatís my opinion, of course.  I am aware it can be read many different ways, but see if you can see it.

I just did as you suggested. Olivet is one of those special places. Do you think the disciples went there to wait for Christ's return in Acts 1:12. Or maybe to pray for divine guidance before going into all the world? Maybe they went there often to wait. I have friends who have gone to Israel and told me that it was life changing to walk where He walked.

How could they not have.  The Son ascended from there.  Now that you say it, I wish I could go there!

Good point Joe!

It has to be amazing beyond belief. If I read my Bible right, we will have a chance to see the Lord return there one day soon.

joechan82

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Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2018, 04:45:29 pm »
Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them. The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st resurrection!"

I completely agree with this, but it fits with pre-tribulation or pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation, where in the world to all the saved people come from that are beheaded etc?
[/quote]

Where did it go... I had written a fews down and now it is gone. Oh-well...

Joe, I ask that you read these points.

* God has not left HIS people behind. This shown throughout prophecy in the OT and NT. The Covenants are and will be in effect. especially GEn 12:3.   oh, and GOD is in control, HE left them.

*If you rightly divide the Bible, everything will make sense and be easier to read ACTs 2:1 was the beginning of the CHurch because that was the day the Holy Spirit came into the Church.

*These are people that are left behind. You probably know some that believe in Jesus but do not believe in everythin He has said.
 the 144,000 will evangelize around the world and bring in multitudes . They themselves will be martyred. The two Witnesses will bring in many believers after they are rapture to heaven. These will also Die in Christ.  and the OT saints (their souls are in Heaven already) will be resurrected from their graves unto life again. They too are redeemed.

The Jews that flee Jerusalem when the Antichrist performed the Abomination of Desolate, will be protected by GOD (the Father) in the mountains of Petra. There He will feed and water them for the next 3. 5 years of Daniel's 70th week. These Jews will He give New Covenant, Jeremiah speaks of, into their hearts and removes all of their sins, forever. They will rule the Nation of Israel with Jesus during the millennium. Their Children will have 100 years to decide (to believe or Not to believe)

The last group are those that lived through Daniel's 70th week. They are the "maybe" believers as all the unbelievers are dead. These did not take the mark of the beast but managed to survive.  They will be given land and will turn their swords into plows.
They will have 100 years to make a decision (to believe or Not to Believe).

The Church (body of Christ) saints will judge from Thrones with Jesus

The Tribulation Saints will serve the Lord day and night. (at what I do not know)

It does not say what the 144,000 will be doing.

Blade

[/quote]
I need to learn how to quote just part of the conversations. When I quote a post, it quotes all the posts that have been quoted. I have read the book called One Book Rightly Divided, so I know what you mean by 'rightly dividing'. That alone should help you see where I am coming from. I just have some verses that challenge where exactly to divide. I am not pretending to be schooling you. I just want you to see where I am coming from. I already cited Matt 24:29-31 compared to 1Thes 4:13-18 so I won't keep saying the same thing over and over. I assume that you are very familiar with those verses, and can hopefully see why I see one event, not two.
My next comparison of passages is Matt 24:15-21 with 2Thes 2:1-4. Here Paul tells the church to look for the abomination of desolation, just like Jesus said in Matt 24. If Matt 24 is just for the Jews, why then does Paul explain it to the church?
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