Author Topic: Tobit (Read 3008 times)

patrick jane · « **on:** November 13, 2019, 11:44:55 am »

The Book of Tobit - KJV

By dakk:

Has anyone ever noticed some of the similarities found in the book of Tobit with the conversion of Saul?

Acts 9:10-18 ASV
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said unto him in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go to the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one named Saul, a man of Tarsus: for behold, he prayeth;
12 and he hath seen a man named Ananias coming in, and laying his hands on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many of this man, how much evil he did to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call upon thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him [hands = power = doctrine] said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized;

Tobit 3:16-17 KJV
[16] So the prayers of them both were heard before the majesty of the great God.
[17] And Raphael was sent to heal them both, that is, to scale away the whiteness of Tobit's eyes, and to give Sara the daughter of Raguel for a wife to Tobias the son of Tobit; and to bind Asmodeus the evil spirit; because she belonged to Tobias by right of inheritance. The selfsame time came Tobit home, and entered into his house, and Sara the daughter of Raguel came down from her upper chamber.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3729381

Tobit 5:4-12 KJV
[4] Therefore when he went to seek a man, he found Raphael that was an angel.
[5] But he knew not; and he said unto him, Canst thou go with me to Rages? and knowest thou those places well?
[6] To whom the angel said, I will go with thee, and I know the way well: for I have lodged with our brother Gabael.
[7] Then Tobias said unto him, Tarry for me, till I tell my father.
[8] Then he said unto him, Go and tarry not. So he went in and said to his father, Behold, I have found one which will go with me. Then he said, Call him unto me, that I may know of what tribe he is, and whether he be a trusty man to go with thee.
[9] So he called him, and he came in, and they saluted one another.
[10] Then Tobit said unto him, Brother, shew me of what tribe and family thou art.
[11] To whom he said, Dost thou seek for a tribe or family, or an hired man to go with thy son? Then Tobit said unto him, I would know, brother, thy kindred and name.
[12] Then he said, I am Azarias, the son of Ananias the great, and of thy brethren.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3729381

Tobit 11:7-14 KJV
[7] Then said Raphael, I know, Tobias, that thy father will open his eyes.
[8] Therefore anoint thou his eyes with the gall, and being pricked therewith, he shall rub, and the whiteness shall fall away, and he shall see thee.
[9] Then Anna ran forth, and fell upon the neck of her son, and said unto him, Seeing I have seen thee, my son, from henceforth I am content to die. And they wept both.
[10] Tobit also went forth toward the door, and stumbled: but his son ran unto him,
[11] And took hold of his father: and he strake of the gall on his fathers' eyes, saying, Be of good hope, my father.
[12] And when his eyes began to smart, he rubbed them;
[13] And the whiteness pilled away from the corners of his eyes: and when he saw his son, he fell upon his neck.
[14] And he wept, and said, Blessed art thou, O God, and blessed is thy name for ever; and blessed are all thine holy angels:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3729381

Tobit 12:14-15 KJV
[14] And now God hath sent me to heal thee and Sara thy daughter in law.
[15] I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, [see also Rev 8:3-4] and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3729381

Ananias the great(er) or elder is Hananyah, father-elder of Raphael
Ananias laid his hands/power, (Raphael, his "son", his doctrine), upon Saul
Raphael = "Healing of El", "Healer of El", "Physician of El"
Luke "the Physician" = Raphael "the Physician of El" (Physician of God)

Damascus = Qumran Damasek, (not Damascus, Syria)
Fragments of a Zadokite Work (The Damascus Document)

Related from several previous threads:
ALL scripture is inspired? #48, #59, #66, #77
What constitutes "scripture?" #9, #105, #112

patrick jane · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:45:47 am »

Was Tobit a Hobbit?

patrick jane · « **Reply #2 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:46:10 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:45:47 am

Was Tobit a Hobbit?

By dakk:

His wife's name was Anna, that is Hannah, the same as Yoakim the father of Maryah: Anna, that is Hannah, was her mother's name. And Tobit was blinded, just as Saulo, who then became Paulo, which is to say, "little", as in Paulo "the Little".

Therefore I say, that if indeed you say, Tobit was a Hobbit, then rightly so also, Paulo "the Little" was a Hobbit. :happy:

Moreover Sarah is the wife of Abraham, and she is an allegory for Yerushalem of above according to the Hobbit: but in this episode Sarah is the daughter of Raguel, who is elsewhere is called Yithro, which is to say, "His Excellency", or simply an ancient way to say "Sir", and that is Yithro Raguel, the Kohen of Midyan and the father of seven little birdies.

Moreover Moshe married into the Melki-Tzedek Elohim priesthood when he married Tzipporah, the daughter of Yithro "His Excellency" Raguel, and Tzipporah was of course one of the seven little birdies, (which are the beloved daughters of doctrine).

Moreover Raguel is also named as one of the seven holy Angels who watch, and that is of course is in the book of 1Enoch, and again, Moshe married one of seven little birdies named Tzipporah who is the beloved doctrine-daughter of Raguel.

Finally, the wife of Raguel in this episode is Edna.
Do you know who Edna is in 1Enoch?

Who therefore is Enoch? :laugh:

patrick jane · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:47:14 am »

By dakk:

It is written in the heavenly tablets. :happy:

PS:

Heavenly tablets:

Ezekiel 11:14-20
14 Again the Word of YHWH came to me, saying:
15 Son of man, your brethren, even your brethren the men of your kindred, and all the house of Yisrael entirely, are those unto whom the inhabitants of Yerushalem have said, "Get yourselves far from YHWH: unto us is this land given in possession!"
16 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH, Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the aretzot-lands, yet will I be to them as a little mikdash-sanctuary-temple in the aretzot-lands where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the aretzot-lands where you have been scattered, and I will give you the adamat-soil of Yisrael.
18 And they shall enter therein: and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof, and all the abominations thereof, out of that place.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their Elohim.

The adamat or adamah-soil is the same "virgin" fertile soil which Adam was taken from when he was formed from dust of the adamah, (soil), and thus the adamah-soil is the soil of the heart, (Parable of the Sower).

The stone tablets of the heart become flesh, that is, living, (heavenly tablets), and that is to say, when the heart is circumcised. The new Spirit is the Spirit of the new Covenant, which is the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts:

A new Spirit into a renewed-refreshed heart.
Neos-new wine into kainos-renewed wine skins.
See also Ezekiel 18:31 and Ezekiel 36:26.

patrick jane · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:48:02 am »

I want more dakk.

patrick jane · « **Reply #5 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:48:40 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:48:02 am

I want more dakk.

By dakk:

Lol, I was kinda hoping people would jump in on this but I guess not. By the way, the wife of "His Excellency", Enoch, is of course also named Edna: which is another form of the word Eden, that is, the Paradise Garden from the beginning, Gan Eden.

Keturah, feminine passive participle of H6999 qatar, incense, to burn incense.
Zimran, musical, music.
Jokshan, from H3369 yaqosh, to ensnare, fowler, (lay a) snare.
Medan, the same as H4090 mdan, a contest or quarrel.
Midian, the same as H4079 midyan, a contest or quarrel.
Ishbak, from an unused root corresponding to H7662, (to quit), he will leave, he leaves, he left, he left off, he quit.
Shuah, from 7743 shuwach, to sink, bow down, incline, humble
Sheba, foreign origin, Sabeans
Dedan, Ddan, Ddaneh, uncertain derivation, Kushites.
Asshurim, to be straight, or and inhabitant of Ashur, a district in Israel.
Letushim, masculine plural of passive participle of H3913, to hammer, hammered ones, hammering ones, teachers, instructors, sharpeners, (by instruction).
Leummim, communities, (plural of H3816 l'om, l'owm, a community).
Ephah, the same as H5890, obscurity, cloudy, gloomy, darkness.
Epher, a gazelle, a variation of H6082 opher, a fawn, from H6080 aphar, dust.
Hanock, Chanowk, same name as the antediluvian patriarch, Enoch, initiate, initiated: from H2596 chanak, to narrow, to initiate or discipline, to dedicate, to train up.
Abida, father of knowledge.
Eldaah, El of knowledge, mighty one of knowledge.

All these were the sons of Incense, (Keturah).

Genesis 25:1-4
1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Incense.
2 And she produced for him music, and a snare, and a quarrel, and a contest: and he left off, and was humbled.
3 And the snare produced Sheba and Dedan: but the sons of Dedan were straight, and instructor-teachers of the communities.
4 And the sons of the contest: obscurity, and a fawn-gazelle, and Enoch the father of knowledge and mighty one of knowledge: all these were the sons of Incense.

This is the genealogy of Yithrow Raguel, "His Execellency" Raguel, (Enoch initiate).

The Torah was given by the instrumentality of Messenger-Angels, (Acts 7:53), and was thoroughly prescribed-ordained by way of the Messenger-Angels in the hand of a Mediator, (Galatians 3:19), which Mediator in the case of the giving of the Torah was Moses.

"His Excellency" (Yithrow) Raguel, the "father-in-law" of Moses, is not is a Messenger: he represents Enoch, for his teaching is that of Enoch. And in this manner, (Genesis 25:1-4, the genealogy of Midian and therefore Yithrow Raguel, the Priest of Midian), Moses places himself squarely in the Elohim Priesthood which is after the order of Melki-Tzedek: for Abraham met with Melki-Tzedek, and Melki-Tzedek blessed him, and Abraham himself was therefore also a Priest after the order of Melki-Tzedek. Immediately after the meeting with Melki-Tzedek, (Gen 14:18-24), the Word comes to Abraham in a vision, and Elohim cuts covenant with Abraham, (Gen 15:1-21).

What therefore are the seven daughters of "His Excellency" Raguel? They are the "daughters" of his sevenfold doctrine. Moses marries into the Elohim Melki-Tzedek Priesthood when he marries "Tzipporah", that is, a clean bird. So the seven daughters of Yithrow Raguel are like seven little birdies with a doctrine, (like seven songs), that is to say, Moses "married" into the doctrine of Yithrow Raguel, who represents a Priest after the order of Enoch the Priest and Scribe, which is the same antediluvian Melki-Tzedek order from before the flood.

patrick jane · « **Reply #6 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:49:06 am »

So dakk, what do you make of the account in Tobit? Was it written before or after Pauls's writings and do you think one story is grafted from another, as are many Biblical accounts?

patrick jane · « **Reply #7 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:50:02 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:49:06 am

So dakk, what do you make of the account in Tobit? Was it written before or after Pauls's writings and do you think one story is grafted from another, as are many Biblical accounts?

By dakk:

It is full of symbolism just as is all of scripture, and yes, I believe it is written before the writings of Paul, and yes, I believe it is all interwoven, (scripture). For instance, you will find a somewhat partial explanation in Tobit concerning the three friends of Daniel, whose names were Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael. Mishael is likely a reference to Michael, (one of the seven holy Angels who watch), while the other two names transliterated from the LXX are the same as those found in Tobit where the Angel Raphael gives his name, that is Azarias, which is the same as Azariah.

Moreover, not only that, but you can see from Tobit 5:12 quoted above herein, that Raphael says, "I am Azarias, the son of Ananias the great(er)".

Azarias = Azariah (Dan 1:6)
Ananias = Hananiah (Dan 1:6)
Mishael = Michael (Dan 1:6)

Therefore, with Gabriel, we may actually have not two but rather four holy Angels in the book of Daniel: and this cannot likely be understood without the book of Tobit and what it says about Raphael. If therefore we have Raphael, (Azariah-Azarias, Dan 1:6), and Gabriel, (Dan 8:16, 9:21) and Michael, (Dan 10:13, 10:21, 12:1), who is the fourth holy Angel?

Enoch tells us about the four that are roundabout the throne, (they are the same four in the Apocalypse). Whoever the fourth one is: he is also likely Hananiah-Ananias the greater, (or more likely elder, that is, in antiquity).

patrick jane · « **Reply #8 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:50:38 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:50:02 am

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:49:06 am
So dakk, what do you make of the account in Tobit? Was it written before or after Pauls's writings and do you think one story is grafted from another, as are many Biblical accounts?
By dakk:

It is full of symbolism just as is all of scripture, and yes, I believe it is written before the writings of Paul, and yes, I believe it is all interwoven, (scripture). For instance, you will find a somewhat partial explanation in Tobit concerning the three friends of Daniel, whose names were Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael. Mishael is likely a reference to Michael, (one of the seven holy Angels who watch), while the other two names transliterated from the LXX are the same as those found in Tobit where the Angel Raphael gives his name, that is Azarias, which is the same as Azariah.

Moreover, not only that, but you can see from Tobit 5:12 quoted above herein, that Raphael says, "I am Azarias, the son of Ananias the great(er)".

Azarias = Azariah (Dan 1:6)
Ananias = Hananiah (Dan 1:6)
Mishael = Michael (Dan 1:6)

Therefore, with Gabriel, we may actually have not two but rather four holy Angels in the book of Daniel: and this cannot likely be understood without the book of Tobit and what it says about Raphael. If therefore we have Raphael, (Azariah-Azarias, Dan 1:6), and Gabriel, (Dan 8:16, 9:21) and Michael, (Dan 10:13, 10:21, 12:1), who is the fourth holy Angel?

Enoch tells us about the four that are roundabout the throne, (they are the same four in the Apocalypse). Whoever the fourth one is: he is also likely Hananiah-Ananias the greater, (or more likely elder, that is, in antiquity).

Interesting. I suppose I could find Tobit online and read it all. I have wondered about this because I heard there are four archangels but it doesn't seem the other two are mentioned much, only Gabriel and Michael. Where is Raphael mentioned in the 66?

patrick jane · « **Reply #9 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:51:14 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:50:38 am

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:50:02 am
Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:49:06 am
So dakk, what do you make of the account in Tobit? Was it written before or after Pauls's writings and do you think one story is grafted from another, as are many Biblical accounts?
By dakk:

It is full of symbolism just as is all of scripture, and yes, I believe it is written before the writings of Paul, and yes, I believe it is all interwoven, (scripture). For instance, you will find a somewhat partial explanation in Tobit concerning the three friends of Daniel, whose names were Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael. Mishael is likely a reference to Michael, (one of the seven holy Angels who watch), while the other two names transliterated from the LXX are the same as those found in Tobit where the Angel Raphael gives his name, that is Azarias, which is the same as Azariah.

Moreover, not only that, but you can see from Tobit 5:12 quoted above herein, that Raphael says, "I am Azarias, the son of Ananias the great(er)".

Azarias = Azariah (Dan 1:6)
Ananias = Hananiah (Dan 1:6)
Mishael = Michael (Dan 1:6)

Therefore, with Gabriel, we may actually have not two but rather four holy Angels in the book of Daniel: and this cannot likely be understood without the book of Tobit and what it says about Raphael. If therefore we have Raphael, (Azariah-Azarias, Dan 1:6), and Gabriel, (Dan 8:16, 9:21) and Michael, (Dan 10:13, 10:21, 12:1), who is the fourth holy Angel?

Enoch tells us about the four that are roundabout the throne, (they are the same four in the Apocalypse). Whoever the fourth one is: he is also likely Hananiah-Ananias the greater, (or more likely elder, that is, in antiquity).
Interesting. I suppose I could find Tobit online and read it all. I have wondered about this because I heard there are four archangels but it doesn't seem the other two are mentioned much, only Gabriel and Michael. Where is Raphael mentioned in the 66?

By dakk:

Loukas is "Leukos the White", the Physician-Healer of El, (Raphael means "Healer of El" or "Healing of El", ("God's Physician")). In Acts 13:1 Lukios, (generally rendered as "Lucius"), maybe a possible reference to him. Moreover Symeon Nijer is "Symeon the Black", (the meaning of Nijer is black), and Sopater Pyrrhus is "Sopater the Red", (the meaning of Pyrrhus is red, Acts 20:4), while the fourth is of course Philippos, ("friend of horses", (face of an eagle, Uriel)), one of the Seven, (Acts 21:

. And Philippos, like Uriel, has four virgin daughters of his doctrine which prophesy, (which is why you see in other writings that Uriel is combined with names of angels, such as in Enoch, where Uriel is also Phanuel as well as his name being a portion of the compound name Arsayalalyur, 1Enoch 10:1-2).

patrick jane · « **Reply #10 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:54:25 am »

Tambora said:

Quote

Many years ago I remember asking a Catholic why their church didn't disembowel a fish for exorcisms like the book of Tobit taught to do for exorcisms.

By dakk:

https://www.bibliacatolica.com.br/new-jerusalem-bible/tobit/8/

An interesting note about that portion is that some texts read that Raphael pursued the demon Asmodeus down to Egypt, (which always represents the flesh in typology), and strangled or choked him out there.

What happened to the swine in the Gospel accounts where the demon named "Legion" was cast out into the swine? The swine rushed down a hillside or steep place into the sea, (or lake, Luke 8:33), and were strangled or choked out.

In the parable of the sower, the thorns do the same in those who hear the Word but have thorns in the soil of the heart: the thorns choke out the Word from the soil of the heart, (Mat 13:7, Mrk 4:7, Luk 8:7). And yet the thorns are said to be the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, the riches and pleasures of this life, and the lusts of other things entering in, (Mat 13:22, Mrk 4:18, Luk 8:14).

Tobit 8:1-3 New Jerusalem Bible
1 When they had finished eating and drinking and it seemed time to go to bed, the young man was taken from the dining room to the bedroom.
2 Tobias remembered Raphael's advice; he went to his bag, took the fish's heart and liver out of it and put some on the burning incense.
3 The reek of the fish distressed the demon, who fled through the air to Egypt. Raphael pursued him there, shackled him and strangled him forthwith.

patrick jane · « **Reply #11 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:56:10 am »

Some **** said:

Tobit is part of the authentic Old Testament canon. It is not "apocrypha".
Tobit is accepted as part of the authentic Old Testament canon by Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Traditional Anglicans and Catholics.... ....in other words almost all of Christianity.

Most scholars date the book's composition between 225 and 175 BC.

The Old Testament includes:
The Book of Tobit
The Book of Judith
The First Book of Maccabees, also called 1 Maccabees
The Second Book of Maccabees, also called 2 Maccabees
The Wisdom of Solomon, also called The Book of Wisdom
The Book of Sirach, also called Ecclesiasticus
The Book of Baruch, with the Letter of Jeremiah as its last chapter
(The Book of Daniel and the Book of Esther are longer in Catholic Bibles than in Protestant Bibles because they have more stories.)

patrick jane · « **Reply #12 on:** November 13, 2019, 11:56:51 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on November 13, 2019, 11:56:10 am

Some **** said:

Tobit is part of the authentic Old Testament canon. It is not "apocrypha".
Tobit is accepted as part of the authentic Old Testament canon by Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Traditional Anglicans and Catholics.... ....in other words almost all of Christianity.

Most scholars date the book's composition between 225 and 175 BC.

The Old Testament includes:
The Book of Tobit
The Book of Judith
The First Book of Maccabees, also called 1 Maccabees
The Second Book of Maccabees, also called 2 Maccabees
The Wisdom of Solomon, also called The Book of Wisdom
The Book of Sirach, also called Ecclesiasticus
The Book of Baruch, with the Letter of Jeremiah as its last chapter
(The Book of Daniel and the Book of Esther are longer in Catholic Bibles than in Protestant Bibles because they have more stories.)

By dakk:

Hi CC, fair point, feel free to discuss Tobit and debate your point also, that is, if anyone decides to chime in and disagrees with you. I'm glad to see someone show an interest in the topic and post here in this thread. Thanks for you input.

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