Author Topic: Spotlight on the Pachamama Controversy (Read 3840 times)

epostle · « **on:** November 08, 2019, 11:54:36 pm »

Monsignor Arizmendi spoke from his own experience among indigenous populations. And he answered the question, giving the response of one who is baptized.

In fact, statuettes representing a pregnant woman and the child she is carrying were presented during the Synod on Amazonia, sparking accusations of idolatry. Five statuettes were thrown into the Tiber. Made of wood, they floated and the Italian police recovered three of them. Then, at the request of Cardinal Fernando Filoni, Prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, they were entrusted to that Dicastery.

Images and figurines, which were used in the opening ceremonies, in the Vatican Gardens, of the Pan-Amazonian Synod, and in the initial procession from Saint Peter’s Basilica to the Synodal Hall, in which Pope Francis took part, and then <used> in other churches of Rome, caused a great stir. Some condemned these actions as if they were idolatry, adoration of “Mother Earth” and other “divinities.”
***Nothing of that happened.***

They aren’t goddesses; it was not an idolatrous worship. They are symbols of Amazonian realities and experiences, with motivation that are not only cultural but also religious, but not of adoration, as this is owed only to God. It’s very bold to condemn the Pope as an idolater, as he never has been or will be. At the end of the ceremony in the Vatican Gardens, he was asked to speak and he limited himself to praying the Our Father. There is no other God than our Father in Heaven.

Years ago, in a CELAM meeting, which I had to coordinate in Cochabamba, Bolivia, on the different names of God in the native cultures of the Southern Cone, I asked an Aymara Indian woman if, for them, Pachamama (Mother Earth) and Inti (Father Sun) are gods, and she answered me:

Those who haven’t received evangelization consider them gods; for those of us who have been evangelized, they aren’t gods, but God’s best gifts.

Wonderful answer! That’s what they are! They are manifestations of God’s love, not gods.

In my previous diocese, when I heard with much affection and respect talk of “Mother Earth,” I felt uncomfortable, as I said to myself: My only mothers are my mamma, the Virgin Mary, and the Church. And when I saw them prostrate themselves and kiss the earth, I was even more bothered. However, living with the Indians, I understood they didn’t adore her Mother Earth as a goddess, but they wanted to value her and acknowledge her as a true mother, as she is the one that gives us food to eat, the one that gives us water, air and all that we need to live. They didn’t consider her a goddess; they didn’t adore her; they only expressed their respect and prayed, thanking God for her.

I felt the same when I saw them going to the four corners of the universe, the cardinal points, they revered them, they prayed and they also addressed the sun with great respect. Before knowing them and sharing the faith with them, I was tempted to judge them and condemn them as idolaters. Then I appreciated their respect for these elements of nature that give us life, and I was convinced that they didn’t adore them as gods, but as God’s work, His gifts to humanity, and this is also the way they educate their children – not to destroy them, but to look after them and respect them. They aren’t idolaters. Those that affirm this don’t know them and judge them at a distance, from afar and from outside. The earth and the sun are creatures of God and Him alone do we adore.

THINK

The Bible says: “Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground” (Genesis 2:7). On Ash Wednesday we are reminded: “Remember that you are dust and unto dust thou shalt return.” This is the reality of all humans.
In the Document of Aparecida, we give the name “mother” to Sister Earth, following the example of Saint Francis of Assisi, who wasn’t an idolater. “With the native people of America, we praise the Lord who created the universe as a space for life and the coexistence of all His sons and daughters and He left it to us as a sign of His goodness and His beauty. Creation is also a manifestation of God’s provident love: it has been given to us to look after it and to transform it into a fitting source of life for all. Although today a greater valuation of nature is generalized, we perceive clearly in how many ways man threatens and destroys his ‘habitat.’ “Our Sister Mother Earth” (Canticle of Creatures, 9) is our common home and that place of God’s covenant with human beings and with the whole of creation. To disregard mutual relations and the balance that God Himself established among created realities, is an offense to the Creator, an attempt against biodiversity and, definitely, against life. The missionary disciple, to whom God entrusted creation, must contemplate it, look after it and use it always respecting the order God gave it” (DA 125).

And to remove all doubt about the Pope’s attitude, suffice it to recall what he wrote in Laudato Si’:
“When we become aware of God’s reflection in all that exists, our heart feels the desire to adore the Lord for all His creatures and, together with them, as expressed in Saint Francis of Assisi’s beautiful hymn: ‘Be praised, my Lord, with all your creatures . . . ‘”(No. 87). “The creatures of this world cannot be considered a good without an owner: Thou sparest all things, for they are thine, O Lord who lovest the living” (Wisdom 11:26). This arouses the conviction that being created by the same Father, all beings of the universe are united by invisible ties and we make up a sort of universal family, a sublime communion that moves us to sacred, affectionate and humble respect” (No. 89). “This doesn’t mean making all living beings equal and taking away from the human being that peculiar value that implies at the same time a tremendous responsibility. Neither does it imply a divinization of the earth, which would deprive us of the call to collaborate with it and to protect its fragility” (No. 90).

ACT

As Jesus says, let us not judge as idolatry what is not so. Let us know in greater depth the native cultures. And it’s our task to share Jesus’ Gospel, which frees us from idolatries, wherever they might be.

https://zenit.org/articles/is-pachamama-a-goddess-asks-monsignor-felipe-arizmendi-esquivel/

Bladerunner · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2019, 07:22:20 pm »

Quote from: epostle on November 08, 2019, 11:54:36 pm

Monsignor Arizmendi spoke from his own experience among indigenous populations. And he answered the question, giving the response of one who is baptized.

In fact, statuettes representing a pregnant woman and the child she is carrying were presented during the Synod on Amazonia, sparking accusations of idolatry. Five statuettes were thrown into the Tiber. Made of wood, they floated and the Italian police recovered three of them. Then, at the request of Cardinal Fernando Filoni, Prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, they were entrusted to that Dicastery.

Images and figurines, which were used in the opening ceremonies, in the Vatican Gardens, of the Pan-Amazonian Synod, and in the initial procession from Saint Peter’s Basilica to the Synodal Hall, in which Pope Francis took part, and then <used> in other churches of Rome, caused a great stir. Some condemned these actions as if they were idolatry, adoration of “Mother Earth” and other “divinities.”
***Nothing of that happened.***

They aren’t goddesses; it was not an idolatrous worship. They are symbols of Amazonian realities and experiences, with motivation that are not only cultural but also religious, but not of adoration, as this is owed only to God. It’s very bold to condemn the Pope as an idolater, as he never has been or will be. At the end of the ceremony in the Vatican Gardens, he was asked to speak and he limited himself to praying the Our Father. There is no other God than our Father in Heaven.

Years ago, in a CELAM meeting, which I had to coordinate in Cochabamba, Bolivia, on the different names of God in the native cultures of the Southern Cone, I asked an Aymara Indian woman if, for them, Pachamama (Mother Earth) and Inti (Father Sun) are gods, and she answered me:

Those who haven’t received evangelization consider them gods; for those of us who have been evangelized, they aren’t gods, but God’s best gifts.

Wonderful answer! That’s what they are! They are manifestations of God’s love, not gods.

In my previous diocese, when I heard with much affection and respect talk of “Mother Earth,” I felt uncomfortable, as I said to myself: My only mothers are my mamma, the Virgin Mary, and the Church. And when I saw them prostrate themselves and kiss the earth, I was even more bothered. However, living with the Indians, I understood they didn’t adore her Mother Earth as a goddess, but they wanted to value her and acknowledge her as a true mother, as she is the one that gives us food to eat, the one that gives us water, air and all that we need to live. They didn’t consider her a goddess; they didn’t adore her; they only expressed their respect and prayed, thanking God for her.

I felt the same when I saw them going to the four corners of the universe, the cardinal points, they revered them, they prayed and they also addressed the sun with great respect. Before knowing them and sharing the faith with them, I was tempted to judge them and condemn them as idolaters. Then I appreciated their respect for these elements of nature that give us life, and I was convinced that they didn’t adore them as gods, but as God’s work, His gifts to humanity, and this is also the way they educate their children – not to destroy them, but to look after them and respect them. They aren’t idolaters. Those that affirm this don’t know them and judge them at a distance, from afar and from outside. The earth and the sun are creatures of God and Him alone do we adore.

THINK

The Bible says: “Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground” (Genesis 2:7). On Ash Wednesday we are reminded: “Remember that you are dust and unto dust thou shalt return.” This is the reality of all humans.
In the Document of Aparecida, we give the name “mother” to Sister Earth, following the example of Saint Francis of Assisi, who wasn’t an idolater. “With the native people of America, we praise the Lord who created the universe as a space for life and the coexistence of all His sons and daughters and He left it to us as a sign of His goodness and His beauty. Creation is also a manifestation of God’s provident love: it has been given to us to look after it and to transform it into a fitting source of life for all. Although today a greater valuation of nature is generalized, we perceive clearly in how many ways man threatens and destroys his ‘habitat.’ “Our Sister Mother Earth” (Canticle of Creatures, 9) is our common home and that place of God’s covenant with human beings and with the whole of creation. To disregard mutual relations and the balance that God Himself established among created realities, is an offense to the Creator, an attempt against biodiversity and, definitely, against life. The missionary disciple, to whom God entrusted creation, must contemplate it, look after it and use it always respecting the order God gave it” (DA 125).

And to remove all doubt about the Pope’s attitude, suffice it to recall what he wrote in Laudato Si’:
“When we become aware of God’s reflection in all that exists, our heart feels the desire to adore the Lord for all His creatures and, together with them, as expressed in Saint Francis of Assisi’s beautiful hymn: ‘Be praised, my Lord, with all your creatures . . . ‘”(No. 87). “The creatures of this world cannot be considered a good without an owner: Thou sparest all things, for they are thine, O Lord who lovest the living” (Wisdom 11:26). This arouses the conviction that being created by the same Father, all beings of the universe are united by invisible ties and we make up a sort of universal family, a sublime communion that moves us to sacred, affectionate and humble respect” (No. 89). “This doesn’t mean making all living beings equal and taking away from the human being that peculiar value that implies at the same time a tremendous responsibility. Neither does it imply a divinization of the earth, which would deprive us of the call to collaborate with it and to protect its fragility” (No. 90).

ACT

As Jesus says, let us not judge as idolatry what is not so. Let us know in greater depth the native cultures. And it’s our task to share Jesus’ Gospel, which frees us from idolatries, wherever they might be.

https://zenit.org/articles/is-pachamama-a-goddess-asks-monsignor-felipe-arizmendi-esquivel/

The pope calling this an idol all the while he has many many idols that people pray to...........

Blade

epostle · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2019, 10:41:44 pm »

Does being a moderator permit you post insulting, stupid and ignorant replies? How can I sign up?

MichaelC · « **Reply #3 on:** November 09, 2019, 11:19:40 pm »

Dear epostle,

I just have to say that you should ask Blade to explain more fully what he was saying. I do have a problem with the Pope worshiping Jesus' mother and other 'saints.' Jesus did not tell us to worship His mother. He said to worship GOD. The same thing goes with the various saints that they put on a pedestal.

There is no Mother Nature either. It is simply the Lord who causes all of the weather, etc. Hey, I've always felt this way. But, I do love the Catholic people and the fact that they accept Jesus as God's Son, and their own Savior. That tells me a lot and I feel they are Christians, too.

I'm not a moderator, but thought I should share these things. It is not right for them to play bingo at the church either, for that is gambling and it is a house of worship. Something is just not right.

Michael

epostle · « **Reply #4 on:** November 09, 2019, 11:28:35 pm »

Hi Michael,

10 Things Catholics are Sick of Hearing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DETqrhg39Qs

None of the formatting features are working, I don't understand why.

epostle · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2019, 05:39:12 am »

Quote from: MichaelC on November 09, 2019, 11:19:40 pm

Dear epostle,
Quote
I just have to say that you should ask Blade to explain more fully what he was saying.
I know exactly what he is saying. A meaningless flaming zinger based on blind prejudice.
Quote
I do have a problem with the Pope worshiping Jesus' mother and other 'saints.'
Of course you do. Anti-Catholic myths has been part of your training. It's so automatic you don't realize you are doing it. You will have to show me in any official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that instructs Catholics to worship Mary or other saints. It's a stupid canard.
Quote
Jesus did not tell us to worship His mother.
Please stop saying Catholics worship Mary. It's insulting. The honor we give to Mary is the same kind of honor that you give to Paul. Human to human. Only more of it. Paul didn't give birth to the Messiah. We think that makes Mary special. Don't you? The anti-Mary animus in Protestantism is not biblical. Are we not to imitate Christ? Did Jesus honor His mother? Oh sure, imitate Christ, but not that!?!

We honor saints because of their exemplary life in Christ. We marvel at their holiness centuries later, and even recent ones.
Quote
He said to worship GOD.
Catholics worship only God and God alone. But don't take my word for it; attend a Mass and see for yourself.
Quote
The same thing goes with the various saints that they put on a pedestal.
I'm sure you have met holy Christians in your life, who bear abundant fruit. Do you put them on a pedestal? Of course not.
Quote
There is no Mother Nature either. It is simply the Lord who causes all of the weather, etc. Hey, I've always felt this way.
Agreed. It's a common euphemism that doesn't necessarily mean creation worship. It's used in every day language.
Quote
But, I do love the Catholic people and the fact that they accept Jesus as God's Son, and their own Savior. That tells me a lot and I feel they are Christians, too.
Thank you.
Quote
I'm not a moderator, but thought I should share these things. It is not right for them to play bingo at the church either, for that is gambling and it is a house of worship. Something is just not right.
People go to bingos for fellowship and to raise money for charity. They are strictly regulated by various government entities. Every penny is accounted for according to the laws of the land. They were never held in a church, but in a hall. Now, various charities take turns running them in public places. I haven't seen a church bingo in 40 years. Equating church bingos with casinos is nit picking phariseeism.

MichaelC · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2019, 07:18:08 pm »

Quote from: epostle on November 09, 2019, 11:28:35 pm

Hi Michael,

10 Things Catholics are Sick of Hearing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DETqrhg39Qs

None of the formatting features are working, I don't understand why.

Dear Epostle,

I watched the video for about 5 mins. I am not going to watch it for an hour.

God's Blessing Upon You,

Michael

Bladerunner · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2019, 07:21:17 pm »

Quote from: epostle on November 10, 2019, 05:39:12 am

Quote from: MichaelC on November 09, 2019, 11:19:40 pm
Dear epostle,
Quote
I just have to say that you should ask Blade to explain more fully what he was saying.
I know exactly what he is saying. A meaningless flaming zinger based on blind prejudice.
Quote
I do have a problem with the Pope worshiping Jesus' mother and other 'saints.'
Of course you do. Anti-Catholic myths has been part of your training. It's so automatic you don't realize you are doing it. You will have to show me in any official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that instructs Catholics to worship Mary or other saints. It's a stupid canard.
Quote
Jesus did not tell us to worship His mother.
Please stop saying Catholics worship Mary. It's insulting. The honor we give to Mary is the same kind of honor that you give to Paul. Human to human. Only more of it. Paul didn't give birth to the Messiah. We think that makes Mary special. Don't you? The anti-Mary animus in Protestantism is not biblical. Are we not to imitate Christ? Did Jesus honor His mother? Oh sure, imitate Christ, but not that!?!

We honor saints because of their exemplary life in Christ. We marvel at their holiness centuries later, and even recent ones.
Quote
He said to worship GOD.
Catholics worship only God and God alone. But don't take my word for it; attend a Mass and see for yourself.
Quote
The same thing goes with the various saints that they put on a pedestal.
I'm sure you have met holy Christians in your life, who bear abundant fruit. Do you put them on a pedestal? Of course not.
Quote
There is no Mother Nature either. It is simply the Lord who causes all of the weather, etc. Hey, I've always felt this way.
Agreed. It's a common euphemism that doesn't necessarily mean creation worship. It's used in every day language.
Quote
But, I do love the Catholic people and the fact that they accept Jesus as God's Son, and their own Savior. That tells me a lot and I feel they are Christians, too.
Thank you.
Quote
I'm not a moderator, but thought I should share these things. It is not right for them to play bingo at the church either, for that is gambling and it is a house of worship. Something is just not right.
People go to bingos for fellowship and to raise money for charity. They are strictly regulated by various government entities. Every penny is accounted for according to the laws of the land. They were never held in a church, but in a hall. Now, various charities take turns running them in public places. I haven't seen a church bingo in 40 years. Equating church bingos with casinos is nit picking phariseeism.

The Pope deemed Mary as Co-redemtrix..She can save you as well as Jesus can.....wellllllllll NOT in the real world reality but only in the catholic church

While I do not subscribe to Wikipedia in any form, I did copy the following from its pages just for your info.....enjoy.....The Catholic Church has fallen away from Jesus Christ and if you read the letter to Thyatira you will find the problems they are having parallel the Catholic church down through the centuries.
Rev 2:18-29

Blade

MichaelC · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2019, 08:24:01 pm »

Quote from: epostle on November 10, 2019, 05:39:12 am

Quote from: MichaelC on November 09, 2019, 11:19:40 pm
Dear epostle,
Quote
I just have to say that you should ask Blade to explain more fully what he was saying.
I know exactly what he is saying. A meaningless flaming zinger based on blind prejudice.
Quote
I do have a problem with the Pope worshiping Jesus' mother and other 'saints.'
Of course you do. Anti-Catholic myths has been part of your training. It's so automatic you don't realize you are doing it. You will have to show me in any official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that instructs Catholics to worship Mary or other saints. It's a stupid canard.
Quote
Jesus did not tell us to worship His mother.
Please stop saying Catholics worship Mary. It's insulting. The honor we give to Mary is the same kind of honor that you give to Paul. Human to human. Only more of it. Paul didn't give birth to the Messiah. We think that makes Mary special. Don't you? The anti-Mary animus in Protestantism is not biblical. Are we not to imitate Christ? Did Jesus honor His mother? Oh sure, imitate Christ, but not that!?!

We honor saints because of their exemplary life in Christ. We marvel at their holiness centuries later, and even recent ones.
Quote
He said to worship GOD.
Catholics worship only God and God alone. But don't take my word for it; attend a Mass and see for yourself.
Quote
The same thing goes with the various saints that they put on a pedestal.
I'm sure you have met holy Christians in your life, who bear abundant fruit. Do you put them on a pedestal? Of course not.
Quote
There is no Mother Nature either. It is simply the Lord who causes all of the weather, etc. Hey, I've always felt this way.
Agreed. It's a common euphemism that doesn't necessarily mean creation worship. It's used in every day language.
Quote
But, I do love the Catholic people and the fact that they accept Jesus as God's Son, and their own Savior. That tells me a lot and I feel they are Christians, too.
Thank you.
Quote
I'm not a moderator, but thought I should share these things. It is not right for them to play bingo at the church either, for that is gambling and it is a house of worship. Something is just not right.
People go to bingos for fellowship and to raise money for charity. They are strictly regulated by various government entities. Every penny is accounted for according to the laws of the land. They were never held in a church, but in a hall. Now, various charities take turns running them in public places. I haven't seen a church bingo in 40 years. Equating church bingos with casinos is nit picking phariseeism.

Dear epostle,

I don't quite know how to answer {quote} separate sentences or paragraphs, so I'll write this in one post. I want to tell you that I have been to Mass a couple times and they placed more emphasis & attention on Mary than on her son, Jesus. She even got more attention than God there. We had to keep saying Hail Mary's and it was just unusual to me. But every church is different.

I love Mary just fine and can imagine how hard it must have been to have Jesus as a human son. Also, you have to balance your knees on a hard board of wood in order to pray. It sucked. I was so uncomfortable with the kneeling that I could hardly enjoy the prayer from the priest.

Then, I went to bingo about three times, and it was always in the same part of the Church. But, that happened back in the 80's. We went to Canada for bingo. I did not buy any bingo cards. I went with a couple of friends.

I also remember going into the church and sprinkling my face with some water and that hardly did it for me. I was baptized in a baptismal pool in a Baptist Church here in Phoenix. I am not a Baptist, though. I go there because of how the pastor preached when he was at my uncle's funeral. I am non-denominational. I wanted to get baptized sometime in my life, though.

Hey, I'm not trying to dis ya.' I love Catholics as much as I love Christians and that is what is in my heart. I see hardly a difference between them. Just because you have a couple of things different doesn't make much of a hoot to me. I love them as much as I love all brethren.

Now, I put most of my love and emphasis upon God, the Father. After that, His Son, Jesus. Then probably Mary. I don't put any emphasis on Paul, to be honest. I am thankful for all of the prophets, like Noah and Elijah, and also Mary, and the disciples. It must have been really hard for Mary to tell others that she was pregnant with God's baby! What a trip!! I do love her dearly as someone who is extraordinary, but I worship only God and Jesus. I do feel for her, though.

The Catholic Churches that I went to was one in Michigan and one in Canada. I did go to St. Peter's Cathedral while I was in NYC, also. I went there to try to tell them about some of my many extraordinary spiritual experiences. Well, I got no help, but the priest did hit on me. I don't care really because I have nothing against gay persons and priests are human, too.

I like to love as many people that I meet in life, for I believe that is what Jesus was all about. This includes loving my enemies. Everyone is loved by me most of the time, but I do not love their ways or actions at times.

I am not trying to bash Catholic brothers and sisters in the slightest. I'm glad that you love Jesus and God. I will see you in Heaven, if the Lord God deems us ready.

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael

MichaelC · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2019, 08:50:12 pm »

Quote from: Bladerunner on November 10, 2019, 07:21:17 pm

Quote from: epostle on November 10, 2019, 05:39:12 am
Quote from: MichaelC on November 09, 2019, 11:19:40 pm
Dear epostle,
Quote
I just have to say that you should ask Blade to explain more fully what he was saying.
I know exactly what he is saying. A meaningless flaming zinger based on blind prejudice.
Quote
I do have a problem with the Pope worshiping Jesus' mother and other 'saints.'
Of course you do. Anti-Catholic myths has been part of your training. It's so automatic you don't realize you are doing it. You will have to show me in any official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that instructs Catholics to worship Mary or other saints. It's a stupid canard.
Quote
Jesus did not tell us to worship His mother.
Please stop saying Catholics worship Mary. It's insulting. The honor we give to Mary is the same kind of honor that you give to Paul. Human to human. Only more of it. Paul didn't give birth to the Messiah. We think that makes Mary special. Don't you? The anti-Mary animus in Protestantism is not biblical. Are we not to imitate Christ? Did Jesus honor His mother? Oh sure, imitate Christ, but not that!?!

We honor saints because of their exemplary life in Christ. We marvel at their holiness centuries later, and even recent ones.
Quote
He said to worship GOD.
Catholics worship only God and God alone. But don't take my word for it; attend a Mass and see for yourself.
Quote
The same thing goes with the various saints that they put on a pedestal.
I'm sure you have met holy Christians in your life, who bear abundant fruit. Do you put them on a pedestal? Of course not.
Quote
There is no Mother Nature either. It is simply the Lord who causes all of the weather, etc. Hey, I've always felt this way.
Agreed. It's a common euphemism that doesn't necessarily mean creation worship. It's used in every day language.
Quote
But, I do love the Catholic people and the fact that they accept Jesus as God's Son, and their own Savior. That tells me a lot and I feel they are Christians, too.
Thank you.
Quote
I'm not a moderator, but thought I should share these things. It is not right for them to play bingo at the church either, for that is gambling and it is a house of worship. Something is just not right.
People go to bingos for fellowship and to raise money for charity. They are strictly regulated by various government entities. Every penny is accounted for according to the laws of the land. They were never held in a church, but in a hall. Now, various charities take turns running them in public places. I haven't seen a church bingo in 40 years. Equating church bingos with casinos is nit picking phariseeism.

The Pope deemed Mary as Co-redemtrix..She can save you as well as Jesus can.....wellllllllll NOT in the real world reality but only in the catholic church

While I do not subscribe to Wikipedia in any form, I did copy the following from its pages just for your info.....enjoy.....The Catholic Church has fallen away from Jesus Christ and if you read the letter to Thyatira you will find the problems they are having parallel the Catholic church down through the centuries.
Rev 2:18-29

Blade

Howdy, Blade --

I hope that you are doing decent, lately, and that you are full of joy regarding the time that is at hand. We are blessed to live during these days and will see many incredible occurrences.

Now, Blade, I don't know what to say to you right now. I know that His disciples were given the power or ability to heal others, but I don't know if they have the power to 'save' souls. No, I don't see that happening, so I can see what you mean.

She is indeed a lady with no match among women during our generation of Adam. It is good to revere her, but not to put her status above God or Jesus. I think that John the Baptist had a hard job to do, besides her.

That's really all that I have to say about it for now. Let's not be caught up in whether Mary is worthy of worship in saving souls, or not. I doubt it, too. I think we must leave it to her Son & God, to be saving souls.

Tons Of Love & Pleasant Times, For You & Yours,

Michael

Dear epostle,

I am just fine with you and figure that Mary is precious indeed. Perhaps, she can save souls because of how much the Lord God loved her, considering she birthed His son. That is beyond words in a way. She could certainly put in a good word to God or Jesus to help save that soul. So, you don't believe Mary can save souls? I don't either, but her influence must be enormous. I love her dearly, but God is my dear best friend, and Father.

Jesus is the same as God, even though they are different vessels. They both are filled with God's Spirit. I love them both very much, but God takes a bit more precedence than Jesus, because the Father is more than the Son. Still, I worship them as One. And the Holy Ghost is extremely excellent and He has visited me a number of times. Sometimes, I cry and laugh at the same time. I am so very thankful that the Lord God would send Him to me so often. He usually comes at a time when I really need the help, inspiration, and solace/ peace.

You are Catholic and that is fine with me. You're loved by God and Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and God's angels. You don't need any more than that. We all get difficulties sometimes because of our beliefs. Have to get going, buddy!

May Jesus Charge His Angels To Give You Strength and Joy!!

Michael

epostle · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2019, 11:52:41 pm »

Quote

The Pope deemed Mary as Co-redemtrix..She can save you as well as Jesus can.....wellllllllll NOT in the real world reality but only in the catholic church.

"Co" does not mean "equal to". Mary can't do anything without Jesus. I can't dummy that down any further. It's obvious to me that you are not the least bit interested in the truth of Catholic teaching, and making straw man fallacies as present tells me you just want to fight and argue with typical anti-Catholic fantasies found on every forum on the internet. If you have a question, I will do my best to answer you. But please, don't be making dogmatic statements about Catholicism that are based on falsehoods and lies, such as deceitfully changing the meaning of simple English words like "co".

Quote

While I do not subscribe to Wikipedia in any form, I did copy the following from its pages just for your info.....enjoy.....The Catholic Church has fallen away from Jesus Christ and if you read the letter to Thyatira you will find the problems they are having parallel the Catholic church down through the centuries.
Rev 2:18-29

You guys keep saying the Catholic Church is not in the Bible. Make up your mind.

patrick jane · « **Reply #11 on:** July 27, 2020, 10:23:03 am »

Where is the person who started this topic?

patrick jane · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2020, 04:56:56 pm »

Quote from: patrick jane on July 27, 2020, 10:23:03 am

Where is the person who started this topic?

gone

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