+- +-

+- User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 117
Latest: relentlesshiker
New This Month: 0
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 14147
Total Topics: 816
Most Online Today: 459
Most Online Ever: 771
(July 30, 2019, 01:13:39 am)
Users Online
Members: 3
Guests: 444
Total: 447

Author Topic: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD  (Read 2019 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

doug

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« on: June 05, 2019, 01:01:09 pm »
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

God purposed to save the believing remnant of Israel to enter the Davidic kingdom on earth from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 Those that dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life are unbelieving Jews as can be seen in the verse below; they will worship the dragon and the beast.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 In the verse above, some are confused and interpret it as saying that "from the foundation of the world" applies to those whose names are not written in the book of life as it does in Revelation 17:8; however it is Jesus that is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world that is the correct reading.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 God purposed to save the body of Christ by the gospel of Christ, from before the foundation of the world; to bless us in heavenly places, to be holy and blameless before him in love.

 Therefore, seeing that there is a difference between before and from, we can determine that God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ. One is to have determined to save (by the gospel of the grace of God) the body of Christ before the foundation of the world to a position in heavenly places; the other is to save the remnant of Israel (by the gospel of the kingdom) to enter the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth, from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The Father loved Christ; and by his unmeasurable grace and kindness, we as being in Christ and members of his body, loved us before the foundation of the world.

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 02:13:22 pm »
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

God purposed to save the believing remnant of Israel to enter the Davidic kingdom on earth from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 Those that dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life are unbelieving Jews as can be seen in the verse below; they will worship the dragon and the beast.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 In the verse above, some are confused and interpret it as saying that "from the foundation of the world" applies to those whose names are not written in the book of life as it does in Revelation 17:8; however it is Jesus that is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world that is the correct reading.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 God purposed to save the body of Christ by the gospel of Christ, from before the foundation of the world; to bless us in heavenly places, to be holy and blameless before him in love.

 Therefore, seeing that there is a difference between before and from, we can determine that God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ. One is to have determined to save (by the gospel of the grace of God) the body of Christ before the foundation of the world to a position in heavenly places; the other is to save the remnant of Israel (by the gospel of the kingdom) to enter the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth, from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The Father loved Christ; and by his unmeasurable grace and kindness, we as being in Christ and members of his body, loved us before the foundation of the world.

Where did the "before" come into the article...I did not see it....

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

doug

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2019, 05:46:08 pm »
 Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ted T.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 184
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2019, 06:13:41 pm »
THIS:
Those that dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life are unbelieving Jews as can be seen in the verse below; they will worship the dragon and the beast.

The verse below is: Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I can see no reason to believe this is restricted to Jews and does not refer to the non-believing reprobate tares, the goats on the left who are the angels of Satan, in total.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 01:15:05 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2019, 09:08:38 pm »
THIS:
Those that dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life are unbelieving Jews as can be seen in the verse below; they will worship the dragon and the beast.

The verse blow is: Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I can see no reason to believe this is restricted to Jews and does not refer to the non-believing reprobate tares, the goats on the left who are the angels of Satan, in total.

Daniel's 70th week is (1) to hand out judgement for sinners of the world and (2) to bring Israel up against the wall in order to make them see that Jesus Christ is and was their messiah... Only 1/3 of Israel's pop will survive being called the Remnant of Israel.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Like Like x 1 View List

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2019, 09:09:07 pm »
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Thanks

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Like Like x 1 View List

Ted T.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 184
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 07:40:20 pm »
Therefore, seeing that there is a difference between before and from, we can determine that God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ.

So we find that the elect were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world and the Lamb was slain FROM the foundation of the world... and from that we can deduce that  God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ??

Applying these verses to "a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ" as if believing Israel was different from "the church, the body of Christ" is far too great a leap for me and I am known for great leaps of faith to solve problems of blasphemy...

I consider all of GOD's legitimate children on earth to be ONE though called by various names as various lessons were taught : Israel, the Church, the sheep gone astray, the sheep returned, the good (but sinful) seed...all one group, aka the sinful elect.

From my Pre-Conceptionist pov, before the foundation refers not just to the earth but before the creation of the physical universe. Since I reject the doctrine of UNconditional election (which I am prepared to defend vigorously) I believe we existed before the creation of the physical universe so we could actually meet the requirements of the condition for election, (not just in HIS imagination) before the foundation (creation) of the world...hence our pre-conception existence.

We the elect made our choice by faith to accept YHWH as our GOD and the Son to be our saviour before we saw the creation of the world or universe as per Job 38:7 when ALL the legitimate sons of GOD sang HIS praises at that event. IF you are a legitimate child of GOD, you were there singing your heart out!

  Christ was chosen to be the lamb slain for the redemption of His elect sometime before creation since 1 Peter 1:20  He was FOREKNOWN before the creation of the world to be the Lamb v.19, suggesting He was chosen BEFORE the creation of the world (as some bible translators have taken foreknown to mean) is not quite the same as  Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world.  is it?

He was foreknown to be slain BEFORE the creation of the world...
He was slain for us FROM the foundation of the world...

I contend that when YHWH decided to create HIS Bride, that is people in HIS image HE could have a marriage with, HE knew HE had to give us all a free will or the marriage was worthless so HE knew the possibility of some rejecting HIS proposal was open...so before that creation of everyone in HIS image YHWH decided that the Son was to be the ONE to die for any elect who sinned.

But it was only AFTER some of HIS elect (ie, those who got HIS promise to be HIS Bride) did in fact sin, that the necessity of being slain for them was established at the same time it was also a necessity to establish the world for their place of redemption.

Reconciled perfectly by PCE theology...


Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

doug

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2019, 07:48:21 am »
Hello

You said: "So we find that the elect were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world and the Lamb was slain FROM the foundation of the world... and from that we can deduce that  God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ?? "

You are comparing the wrong two verses that show the distinction between Israel and the church, the body of Christ. I was contrasting the two passages below:

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I was only showing how the verses in Revelation apply to Israel; it is Jews names written in the book of life. I was dealing with the passages that dealt with Israel first then the body in the post.

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2019, 01:40:31 pm »
I like your posts very much.

Our Lord is addressing the sheep on the right hand, you identify them as Jews. I identify them as having been taken out of the nations and separated. Evangelicals do not handle this event at all well in identifying these righteous sheep as the church ... they receive an inheritance on account of good works, they clothed the naked, fed the hungry etc

"insomuch as ye did it to the least of My brethren ... " "these My brethren" are the church, the least of them I believe are the Jews.

How can He be addressing the church and then say ye did it to these My brethren the church?

That is awful exegesis.

Look at what He says "Come ye blest of My Father" it is not "your Father....or even the Father"
again He said "ye did it to these My brethren" not "your brethren or the brethren"

To me it is impossible that we the church shall have reigned with Christ from heaven during 1,000 years and then be judged, but it is [to me] just as impossible that the Jews will have reigned with Him on earth during 1,000 years and be judged.

These righteous sheep are imo a separate people from the church and from the Jews, a people who inherit a reward upon the basis of good works.

This represents a much, much wider mercy on that day than is generally thought.
Have faith in God

doug

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2019, 04:52:04 pm »
I am glad you find my posts helpful

Let me clarify.....Matthew 25:32 is talking about the judgment of the nations NOT the church. The nations will enter the earthly Davidic kingdom along with believing Israel....In showing Matthew 25 I was only saying that it was dealing with the earthly kingdom promised Israel. The Gentile nations will enter the same kingdom as Israel, at the same time and I was only showing that it was established FROM the foundation of the world as opposed to the body of Christ, the church today, being chosen in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2019, 08:50:42 am »
I am glad you find my posts helpful

Let me clarify.....Matthew 25:32 is talking about the judgment of the nations NOT the church. The nations will enter the earthly Davidic kingdom along with believing Israel....In showing Matthew 25 I was only saying that it was dealing with the earthly kingdom promised Israel. The Gentile nations will enter the same kingdom as Israel, at the same time and I was only showing that it was established FROM the foundation of the world as opposed to the body of Christ, the church today, being chosen in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world

One might also say a remnant of the Gentiles nations.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Like Like x 1 View List

patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7429
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 40
    • Theology Forums
Re: BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 08:05:14 am »
Thanks Doug.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
2150 Views
Last post November 26, 2018, 08:49:52 pm
by patrick jane
42 Replies
3599 Views
Last post July 05, 2020, 05:22:51 pm
by Bladerunner
57 Replies
1652 Views
Last post July 11, 2019, 05:43:38 am
by patrick jane
2 Replies
1125 Views
Last post July 11, 2019, 06:04:20 am
by patrick jane
2 Replies
574 Views
Last post February 24, 2020, 08:18:39 am
by patrick jane

+-Recent Topics

Expectations of the Antichrist - Chuck Missler by patrick jane
Today at 12:59:44 am

Are our prayers powerful? by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 11:49:10 pm

Why stay awake and pray? by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 11:40:58 pm

Christianity Today Magazine - July 2020 by patrick jane
July 11, 2020, 09:58:28 pm

Mark & La Shonda Songwriting by La Shonda
July 11, 2020, 08:44:20 pm

Is scripture given to us for academic reasons or practice reasons? by patrick jane
July 11, 2020, 08:26:04 pm

What does Love for God look like? by patrick jane
July 11, 2020, 08:21:55 pm

Do you study scripture or the teachers you feel are right? by patrick jane
July 11, 2020, 08:20:57 pm

Coronavirus hoax to declare martial law (FEMA) by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:21:39 pm

Biblical Theology - Video and Audio Bible Lessons - For Serious Students by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:19:04 pm

Tiny Houses, Affordable Living and More by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:12:19 pm

Re: Trump 2020 - Winning !!! by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:08:53 pm

Politics Today by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:06:47 pm

Trump 2020 - Winning !!! by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:02:18 pm

Wesleyan Theology by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 06:00:52 pm

ONLY ONE GOSPEL ? by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 05:58:47 pm

Creepy Joe Biden by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 05:53:28 pm

VIDEO MINISTRY BY LION OF JUDAH by Bladerunner
July 11, 2020, 05:51:31 pm