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Author Topic: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?  (Read 1147 times)

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Jon Wood

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First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« on: July 16, 2020, 06:36:10 pm »
TLDR:Is there anything within the nature of The Father, that required Him to act outwardly, or interact with ďanotherĒ, from the very fact that this trait was within His nature before creation? Think of the popular argument from First Cause (aka unmoved Mover)... does the problem of ďinfinite regressionĒ truly end when we state that God set everything else into motion?

Unnecessary Backstory:This is almost a reiteration of a thread I have going on at TF. The O.P. is partially inspired from both here and there by similar argumentation that I saw around the same time and debated whether Iíd engage in those threads or not on that point. Iím fine with the Trinity being discussed here because itís easier to manage discussion without the constant sidetracking elsewhere. One member is already part of the one at TF currently and Iíve enjoyed that so far, and they are welcome to interact in this thread especially with the ďrestrictionĒ lifted lol.
[Unnecessary Backstory Over]

I think it was in my last thread here that it was mentioned a starting point from God BEING love. I think the implication was that without a subject that was not the Father, the Father could not BE love. I had presumed that the argument works fine with the assumption that God is loving and the same logic applies, but I canít say for sure. I think God BEING love is meant to ground love to a stronger sense of permanence, but there could be more to that. Iíd like to hear more from that person, if they like that conversation still.

Of course, we donít have to start with love, it is only the thing that moved me to...(Iím sorry, I wonít finish the pun). We could even differentiate how something is not necessarily the nature of The Father/God but a certain expression of an element of His nature.

I DO (currently) think that the regression continues past God actuating everything else, IF God was bound to eventual outward action due to something within His nature, but Iím not sure Iíve thought about it quite long enough to make a call lol.
*I edited my post to remove the names of people that I did not consult for the use of their names here, sorry.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 08:01:12 pm by patrick jane »

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Jon Wood

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I decided to drop this in Philosophy since the argument from first cause is supposed to be used to establish a Creator in the general sense more  than any specific God. Plus, I didnít feel like throwing this into someoneís theology nook and just causing clutter If I forget to come back later, lol

patrick jane

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2020, 08:12:48 pm »
Jon, I wanted to Tweet this out like I do with every other thread on the forum, but this one will not come up on Twitter. I changed the title and moved the topic and still no luck. So I moved it back to Philosophy and you can change the title back. Very strange that I can't Tweet this thread.

Jon Wood

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2020, 08:21:01 pm »
That is pretty weird. The title looks the same to me
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patrick jane

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2020, 08:34:39 pm »
TLDR:Is there anything within the nature of The Father, that required Him to act outwardly, or interact with ďanotherĒ, from the very fact that this trait was within His nature before creation? Think of the popular argument from First Cause (aka unmoved Mover)... does the problem of ďinfinite regressionĒ truly end when we state that God set everything else into motion?

Unnecessary Backstory:This is almost a reiteration of a thread I have going on at TF. The O.P. is partially inspired from both here and there by similar argumentation that I saw around the same time and debated whether Iíd engage in those threads or not on that point. Iím fine with the Trinity being discussed here because itís easier to manage discussion without the constant sidetracking elsewhere. One member is already part of the one at TF currently and Iíve enjoyed that so far, and they are welcome to interact in this thread especially with the ďrestrictionĒ lifted lol.
[Unnecessary Backstory Over]

I think it was in my last thread here that it was mentioned a starting point from God BEING love. I think the implication was that without a subject that was not the Father, the Father could not BE love. I had presumed that the argument works fine with the assumption that God is loving and the same logic applies, but I canít say for sure. I think God BEING love is meant to ground love to a stronger sense of permanence, but there could be more to that. Iíd like to hear more from that person, if they like that conversation still.

Of course, we donít have to start with love, it is only the thing that moved me to...(Iím sorry, I wonít finish the pun). We could even differentiate how something is not necessarily the nature of The Father/God but a certain expression of an element of His nature.

I DO (currently) think that the regression continues past God actuating everything else, IF God was bound to eventual outward action due to something within His nature, but Iím not sure Iíve thought about it quite long enough to make a call lol.
*I edited my post to remove the names of people that I did not consult for the use of their names here, sorry.
So, is the basis for this topic the idea that God had to create? That an uncreated creator is bound to create? Or what does Unmovced mean in this context?

Bladerunner

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2020, 08:46:33 pm »
TLDR:Is there anything within the nature of The Father, that required Him to act outwardly, or interact with ďanotherĒ, from the very fact that this trait was within His nature before creation? Think of the popular argument from First Cause (aka unmoved Mover)... does the problem of ďinfinite regressionĒ truly end when we state that God set everything else into motion?

Unnecessary Backstory:This is almost a reiteration of a thread I have going on at TF. The O.P. is partially inspired from both here and there by similar argumentation that I saw around the same time and debated whether Iíd engage in those threads or not on that point. Iím fine with the Trinity being discussed here because itís easier to manage discussion without the constant sidetracking elsewhere. One member is already part of the one at TF currently and Iíve enjoyed that so far, and they are welcome to interact in this thread especially with the ďrestrictionĒ lifted lol.
[Unnecessary Backstory Over]

I think it was in my last thread here that it was mentioned a starting point from God BEING love. I think the implication was that without a subject that was not the Father, the Father could not BE love. I had presumed that the argument works fine with the assumption that God is loving and the same logic applies, but I canít say for sure. I think God BEING love is meant to ground love to a stronger sense of permanence, but there could be more to that. Iíd like to hear more from that person, if they like that conversation still.

Of course, we donít have to start with love, it is only the thing that moved me to...(Iím sorry, I wonít finish the pun). We could even differentiate how something is not necessarily the nature of The Father/God but a certain expression of an element of His nature.

I DO (currently) think that the regression continues past God actuating everything else, IF God was bound to eventual outward action due to something within His nature, but Iím not sure Iíve thought about it quite long enough to make a call lol.
*I edited my post to remove the names of people that I did not consult for the use of their names here, sorry.
So, is the basis for this topic the idea that God had to create? That an uncreated creator is bound to create? Or what does Unmovced mean in this context?

good question PJ. I got lost myself

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Jon Wood

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2020, 09:20:22 pm »
So, is the basis for this topic the idea that God had to create? That an uncreated creator is bound to create? Or what does Unmovced mean in this context?
... You know what, I guess that is about the least roundabout way of understanding the general concept, lol. Maybe to what degree that might mean God could fall into determinism Himself.

Jon Wood

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2020, 09:24:43 pm »

good question PJ. I got lost myself

Blade
I think he nailed it easier than I could have explained it. One specific thing that might come up is if God must have necessarily been the Trinitarian understanding to accommodate for His nature from square one. At least two people think so because of love. Iím not so sure.

Bladerunner

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2020, 07:52:28 am »

good question PJ. I got lost myself

Blade
I think he nailed it easier than I could have explained it. One specific thing that might come up is if God must have necessarily been the Trinitarian understanding to accommodate for His nature from square one. At least two people think so because of love. Iím not so sure.

I am going to venture out into this pool and see if it is hot or cool.

I guess it all comes down to how one sees WHAT God's Nature is? Is it like a grandfather, a dictator, a murderer, a non-caring entity.  He created us and gave us an eternal life. He gave us the ability to think and to at the very least degree carve out our path during this life time on earth. He gives a choice which most will ignore or throw back into His face. Yet, He remains silent and lets us continue.

What is His nature? I think it is caring, loving as a father would discipline his own children with all that love and more, that can be from a mere mortal father.

In my papers, I saw this scripture of His word and thought it be appropriate. Maybe not, you be the judge as each of us decides what the nature of GOD is in our minds.

Psalm 50:16-23..(KJV).."But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God. "

Blade



« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 07:56:06 am by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2020, 09:22:41 am »
Excellent scripture Blade. Jon, I believe I have answered this way before but I don't yet have a scripture(s) to back this up: I believe that God was compelled to share Himself; His love and power and glory. I think God as He existed before the beginning was always with His Eternal Son and His Spirit. Was there ever a moment when God was alone without His Spirit and Son?

Of course, we do not know. One can only imagine with our finite minds. So, I imagine that I existed before time with all knowledge, wisdom and power. I would want to create and share my infinite love.


Isaiah 46 KJV -

Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.

2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.

3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.

7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

patrick jane

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2020, 08:35:38 am »
Jon?

patrick jane

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Re: First Causeís Unmoved Mover(s?): Fated to Move?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 11:14:56 pm »
Interesting

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