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Author Topic: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?  (Read 890 times)

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Lori Bolinger

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What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
« on: July 04, 2020, 12:22:30 pm »
I don't like to start a new thread on Sat. since I take Sun. off but the topic came up on another thread so I thought I would go ahead.



Some years ago, I started reading a book, it was talking about all the possible meaning for what Gen. literally says.  For example, how long is a day?  Is it a 24 hour day? The span of daylight?  etc.  It isn't until day 4 that God gives us a way to measure a day.



As I understand a literal reading of scripture accepts that we don't know the length of the day that is recorded in scripture and yet most people who call themselves literalists claim that it is a 24 hour day...period, end of the discussion.



Another great example is that of the flood, we know that a literal understanding tells us that the only life that survived were those on the ark but it says nothing about a worldwide flood, what if life was not dispersed around the world at that time in history?  Would it then have to be a worldwide flood? or just a huge flood that was local to the life that existed at that time?



So lets talk about what being a literalist really means and what we try to turn it into.

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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Bladerunner

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I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is mos literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.

Since the Bible was authored by GOD, we read it literally, Historically, grammatically and syntheically.  You Mark take it a step further and read from it applications to you sheeps lives.

As far as Lori comments about the Bible, they are just fine. The Bible is specific in that the Woman is not to take place in the CHURCH's administration/leadership teaching of men..during sanctioned church functions which were at that time mostly on the Sabbath.

I see no problem in women teaching, discussing outside the above parameters. The only thing I do see is a problem is the Women who want to do away with GOD's WORD as they seem to take offense at its words...This is dangerous territory for some to take such a hard stand against GOD's Word.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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See thats my problem Blade, is I have doubts that the words are God's any longer.  I never doubt the GODs word but there is some discernment that needs used.  I have an 1895 KJV a 1947 KJV a 1966 KJV and one bought in the last year.   Every single one has had a disclaimer that there has been changes made because never information has been discovered.   Major passages have been changed but the changing of words.

This bothers me when you take it literally as you see it in the latest version.  This happens in every single version whether it is a KJV, ESV or any other. 

As for Lori, I love the fact she is here, I love that she teaches, I have learned from her and her writings.  I am just trying to make the point that while we need to be literal with GOD's words, we need to use some discernment in how the wordsmiths have made changes and if it has altered what God wants us to know and to live by.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Bladerunner

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See thats my problem Blade, is I have doubts that the words are God's any longer.  I never doubt the GODs word but there is some discernment that needs used.  I have an 1895 KJV a 1947 KJV a 1966 KJV and one bought in the last year.   Every single one has had a disclaimer that there has been changes made because never information has been discovered.   Major passages have been changed but the changing of words.

This bothers me when you take it literally as you see it in the latest version.  This happens in every single version whether it is a KJV, ESV or any other. 

As for Lori, I love the fact she is here, I love that she teaches, I have learned from her and her writings.  I am just trying to make the point that while we need to be literal with GOD's words, we need to use some discernment in how the wordsmiths have made changes and if it has altered what God wants us to know and to live by.

Mark will have to check out this editions to the King James....Have not noticed it before...I do know that the copyright is for the notes/study guides of the book. Maybe the page introductions.

The Authorized version of the King James is open to all.   not to change.

If those words have been changed in the KING James, as they have in many other versions, then I agree with you. One will be hard to understand what God's words were. However, if they have not changed?

I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

What does yours KJV Read?:

Blade

1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

My 1979 version of KJV is the same

My 1949 copy

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God manifested in human flesh, justified was he in the Spirit,  seen was he by angels, proclaimed was he by all nation, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed on in the world, received up was he into glory

My 1943 version of KJV by dad carried in WWII parallels your version.  I think the difference is the 1949 is a protestant Alter bible used in a church.

My baptismal gift Bible from 1966 different by just a little

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh: justified in Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, proclaimed on in the world, received up into glory.

My favorite as I think it is more eloquent and closer to the original Greek it would have been written in, this is from my great grandfather Bible of 1883.

And without conflict great is the mystery of holiness, manifest in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up into Glory.

I do not have issues as the true word of God based on what is said is not altered but the words used to say it seem to alter as our language use of the language has changed.
 
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Lori Bolinger

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I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
I would love to hear your thoughts on woman and the church, but alas another topic...you are right on the money for my way of thinking about culture and should be part of our understanding when studying. I think and I see it more and more, a lot of people claim literal understanding while reading their traditions into the text which is a problem and is NOT what literalist should mean.

Lori Bolinger

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See thats my problem Blade, is I have doubts that the words are God's any longer.  I never doubt the GODs word but there is some discernment that needs used.  I have an 1895 KJV a 1947 KJV a 1966 KJV and one bought in the last year.   Every single one has had a disclaimer that there has been changes made because never information has been discovered.   Major passages have been changed but the changing of words.

This bothers me when you take it literally as you see it in the latest version.  This happens in every single version whether it is a KJV, ESV or any other. 

As for Lori, I love the fact she is here, I love that she teaches, I have learned from her and her writings.  I am just trying to make the point that while we need to be literal with GOD's words, we need to use some discernment in how the wordsmiths have made changes and if it has altered what God wants us to know and to live by.
This is at least one of the reasons why God commands us to study, not just read wouldn't you say?

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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I totally agree.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Bladerunner

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I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

My 1979 version of KJV is the same

My 1949 copy

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God manifested in human flesh, justified was he in the Spirit,  seen was he by angels, proclaimed was he by all nation, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed on in the world, received up was he into glory

My 1943 version of KJV by dad carried in WWII parallels your version.  I think the difference is the 1949 is a protestant Alter bible used in a church.

My baptismal gift Bible from 1966 different by just a little

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh: justified in Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, proclaimed on in the world, received up into glory.

My favorite as I think it is more eloquent and closer to the original Greek it would have been written in, this is from my great grandfather Bible of 1883.

And without conflict great is the mystery of holiness, manifest in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up into Glory.

I do not have issues as the true word of God based on what is said is not altered but the words used to say it seem to alter as our language use of the language has changed.

and these are King James authorized editions?? Who is the editor of your version?  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ????

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Yes, they are all authorized edition by various publishers.   Now you understand why I struggle with just the words.  Worse yet none of this matches the oldest existing Greek text of 1 Timothy that is considered the authoritative version. 

The upside is that for me at least is the true meaning of the word of God divinely inspired was not lost.

Again this is just my humble opinion.

Oh, I would never use a latter-day saints text for anything.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Bladerunner

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I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

My 1979 version of KJV is the same

My 1949 copy

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God manifested in human flesh, justified was he in the Spirit,  seen was he by angels, proclaimed was he by all nation, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed on in the world, received up was he into glory

My 1943 version of KJV by dad carried in WWII parallels your version.  I think the difference is the 1949 is a protestant Alter bible used in a church.

My baptismal gift Bible from 1966 different by just a little

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh: justified in Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, proclaimed on in the world, received up into glory.

My favorite as I think it is more eloquent and closer to the original Greek it would have been written in, this is from my great grandfather Bible of 1883.

And without conflict great is the mystery of holiness, manifest in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up into Glory.

I do not have issues as the true word of God based on what is said is not altered but the words used to say it seem to alter as our language use of the language has changed.

and these are King James authorized editions?? Who is the editor of your version?  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ????

Blade

I might add that the only 1949 KJ Bible I can find is the Service Book of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

I use the 1792 Edition of the Authorized version...If it is not the Authorised version, I fear rampant changing of words.

Please check these verses out tosee what the 1949 copy says.

John 6:47.."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Most of these verses in other versions than the KJV state.."truly, truly, I say unto you, he who believes has eternal life"     WHO is he believing in...it is left out....

The 1 tim 3:16...with the NIV version (the most popular bible in the USA) states.."Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit,[fn] was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

Who is he...certainly not GOD,,maybe a man.....If He is Jesus then His deity is removed.   Compare this with your other Bibles...

I have Bibles that go back to my grandparents and they are Authorized KING JAMES "Edition" (NOT Versions).

They are all in complete agreement. as was your 1972 Edition....and your Dad's 1943 Edition......

Again all I can find for the 1949 version is it used as the Service Book of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

Mark: we cannot change the WORD of GOD because we are living differently....we are suppose to live by it not make it say how we live. I know you know this and am simply discussing this problem.

The KJV made from the Textus Receptus, 5600 manuscripts, pieces of various Papyri at the time and the westminister Leningrad codex and not the flawed trinity of the Alexander Codicies.

Blade

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Bladerunner

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I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
I would love to hear your thoughts on woman and the church, but alas another topic...you are right on the money for my way of thinking about culture and should be part of our understanding when studying. I think and I see it more and more, a lot of people claim literal understanding while reading their traditions into the text which is a problem and is NOT what literalist should mean.

There are many versions out there that do just that Lori: add present day culture to the verses of the Bible.... We are to live by the verses, not change them to say how we are living and that it is OK.. there is a difference.

Blade
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 08:39:09 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

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