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Author Topic: The dangers of woman keeping silent...  (Read 1395 times)

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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #78 on: April 12, 2019, 10:08:45 am »
Let me tell you a funny story about MacArthur's teaching on this matter. 

Some time ago, my husband was pastoring a church in which two of the women were trying to run the church.  They were gossips, controlling, etc. woman that obviously were NOT living according to a yielded life to the living God.  They however, used MacArthur's teaching on the subject of woman to try to silence not only other woman who could teach them how to be a woman of God but to try to silence the men as well so that they could continue on their agenda.

What I am proposing the passage means would not be very easy to use in the same way.  In fact, what I am proposing it is teaching is that all people, both men and woman alike are to live in quietness and peace (in their behaviors) waiting patiently for God to open the doors He wants opened.  That would have instantly disqualified these two ladies....from trying to run the church, but because they used MacArthur's teaching they could weasel their way into various positions and in doing so take over the church.

Now I am NOT advocating that is a reason to accept how I understand the passage...please don't make the mistake of assuming that is what I am saying....what I am saying however, is that I believe that truth always holds up to challenge, so that would be just one more checks and balances to add to our careful study of the discrepancies between the teaching and the text.
I thought I basically said the same things about the verses.
I was just hoping for a discussion about where we get that understanding verse the traditional understanding like MacArthur...I'm about study of scripture....

patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2019, 10:16:55 am »
Let me tell you a funny story about MacArthur's teaching on this matter. 

Some time ago, my husband was pastoring a church in which two of the women were trying to run the church.  They were gossips, controlling, etc. woman that obviously were NOT living according to a yielded life to the living God.  They however, used MacArthur's teaching on the subject of woman to try to silence not only other woman who could teach them how to be a woman of God but to try to silence the men as well so that they could continue on their agenda.

What I am proposing the passage means would not be very easy to use in the same way.  In fact, what I am proposing it is teaching is that all people, both men and woman alike are to live in quietness and peace (in their behaviors) waiting patiently for God to open the doors He wants opened.  That would have instantly disqualified these two ladies....from trying to run the church, but because they used MacArthur's teaching they could weasel their way into various positions and in doing so take over the church.

Now I am NOT advocating that is a reason to accept how I understand the passage...please don't make the mistake of assuming that is what I am saying....what I am saying however, is that I believe that truth always holds up to challenge, so that would be just one more checks and balances to add to our careful study of the discrepancies between the teaching and the text.
I thought I basically said the same things about the verses.
I was just hoping for a discussion about where we get that understanding verse the traditional understanding like MacArthur...I'm about study of scripture....
I think we get that authority and power from the Holy Spirit. Our conscience as well. Discernment and testing the spirits.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2019, 10:18:45 am »
Let me tell you a funny story about MacArthur's teaching on this matter. 

Some time ago, my husband was pastoring a church in which two of the women were trying to run the church.  They were gossips, controlling, etc. woman that obviously were NOT living according to a yielded life to the living God.  They however, used MacArthur's teaching on the subject of woman to try to silence not only other woman who could teach them how to be a woman of God but to try to silence the men as well so that they could continue on their agenda.

What I am proposing the passage means would not be very easy to use in the same way.  In fact, what I am proposing it is teaching is that all people, both men and woman alike are to live in quietness and peace (in their behaviors) waiting patiently for God to open the doors He wants opened.  That would have instantly disqualified these two ladies....from trying to run the church, but because they used MacArthur's teaching they could weasel their way into various positions and in doing so take over the church.

Now I am NOT advocating that is a reason to accept how I understand the passage...please don't make the mistake of assuming that is what I am saying....what I am saying however, is that I believe that truth always holds up to challenge, so that would be just one more checks and balances to add to our careful study of the discrepancies between the teaching and the text.
I thought I basically said the same things about the verses.
I was just hoping for a discussion about where we get that understanding verse the traditional understanding like MacArthur...I'm about study of scripture....
I think we get that authority and power from the Holy Spirit. Our conscience as well. Discernment and testing the spirits.
exactly...but if a woman has no authority, there is nothing for her to usurp over the man...that was kind of the point on that one.  Someone had to give her authority to usurp....that authority came from God...so how can she be forbidden from exercising what God gave her?
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2019, 10:31:19 am »
Here is another story related to this topic....in our church some years ago, a man who actually holds the MacArthur view of the passage, was wanting to step down from his Sunday School teaching.  He was looking for someone who was available to take over who was qualified and ultimately asked me to do it...but remember, this would have been a violation of MacArthurs understanding of the passage in question.

He eventually asked me to teach for him, after much prayer, I did and not only did several people in the class talk about how I was gifted to teach, but the class grow out of the room we were in and continued to grow until some nasty stuff went down that involved the "male" leadership of the church.  Notice that a woman, who was yielded to God and waiting on Him to open the doors of authority He wanted opened, saw growth in the SS while a man who was not called and violated scriptural qualifications brought divisiveness and strife.....why is that if women are NOT allowed to teach men, period?  Again, not saying we should base our understanding on anecdotal evidence but that anecdotal evidence is a challenge that should hold up to truth.
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2019, 10:40:22 am »
I kind of wanted someone to weigh in on the prophecy issue before moving on to the next one.

The next one on my short list would be the likewise...or in the same manner...part of the passage in context.

In context we see that men are told that their authority is to be done in quiet and peacefulness....then we see "Likewise" or "in the same manner" woman...authority...quiet/silent....what would compel us to change the meaning of quiet to silent if the two are the same manner....not to mention why would we withhold authority from woman if their behavior with authority was to be the same as the men of authority?  This is a discrepancy that does not make sense with the traditional understanding of this passage.

The same goes for the passage I Corinthians 11 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Notice that both men and women are praying and prophesying yet we are asked to believe that I Timothy is teaching woman not to pray or prophesy in church.... why should we believe that is the correct teaching of the Timothy passage when we see in I Cor. that that teaching is challenged?  Discrepancies in the traditional teaching...
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Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2019, 06:02:02 pm »
I kind of wanted someone to weigh in on the prophecy issue before moving on to the next one.

The next one on my short list would be the likewise...or in the same manner...part of the passage in context.

In context we see that men are told that their authority is to be done in quiet and peacefulness....then we see "Likewise" or "in the same manner" woman...authority...quiet/silent....what would compel us to change the meaning of quiet to silent if the two are the same manner....not to mention why would we withhold authority from woman if their behavior with authority was to be the same as the men of authority?  This is a discrepancy that does not make sense with the traditional understanding of this passage.

The same goes for the passage I Corinthians 11 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Notice that both men and women are praying and prophesying yet we are asked to believe that I Timothy is teaching woman not to pray or prophesy in church.... why should we believe that is the correct teaching of the Timothy passage when we see in I Cor. that that teaching is challenged?  Discrepancies in the traditional teaching...

Lori, My dear Lady...I really don't think you think that (1 Tim 2) prevents women from praying in church. It says they are not to lead the prayers (authoritative). The women in the Bible who have prophesied were not inside the church walls (the House of GOD)...

I know , it is I who keep failing you and at the same time I pray that GOD will help give you direction toward literal Word of God. The church at Corinth was a little different than the one from Ephesus and Timothy.  This is another discussion but is relevant in the differences in 1 Tim and 1 Cor.

Please allow me to post two more videos (of someone else I agree with), as it seems Dr. MacArthur is in the same boat I am with your dissatisfaction with our answers. What I will do is present the two videos in the order I think will convey the correct message. I ask that you watch them in that order.

The first is titled " Is this why some women are miserable. " and the second is  "The roles of Men and Women are not hard to figure out". As you are teaching other people in the church, it is incumbent to make sure your teachings are instructive but short of being authoritarian.

I hope this hits the mark as I will leave it to someone else to bring you back into the fold, if you are still not satisfied your questions have been answered?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpC9X4EpbsE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osNlrpQnAv4

May you have a good day and enjoy the videos

Blade




1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2019, 12:07:04 pm »
Blade...you still didn't address the passage...let me quote it again...before we move on, how about addressing the passage that seems to disagree with what you are saying....?

I Corinthians 11
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Make sure to look at the context when you explain how this passage says the same thing you are saying about I Timothy 2....thank you in advance.

Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2019, 12:43:15 pm »
As to the videos...Blade if you think these videos address what I am saying, you have no idea what I am saying or suggesting.

In fact, what I am suggesting the passage says when studied rather than listening to teacher tell us what they want it to say, it is a much much harder teaching than what the teachers are teaching you it means.

I came here wanting to talk about the discrepancies in the passage and totality of scripture and teachings like you are presenting...if you are willing to talk about those discrepancies let me know.  I already presented one about "likewise" or "in like manner" that you didn't address.

Look I have already told you that I am looking for an excuse to believe these teachers you are presenting are right...but I can't find it.
I have no problem with roles...or submission (which I also believe most people get wrong but that is another discussion and again, what I believe it means is a harder teaching than what most mean)

What I have a problem with is the discrepancies I see in scripture when it comes to teachings like you post videos of...and just for the record, this guy confessed that at least in part the teaching comes from a reaction to modern day schemes of Satan which assault our woman in society...let me point out that that is a very good reason to look into the likewise part of the passage, cause men are being bombarded with the same kinds of lies....thus any passage that says likewise is referring to the same things....


patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2019, 01:09:09 pm »
As to the videos...Blade if you think these videos address what I am saying, you have no idea what I am saying or suggesting.

In fact, what I am suggesting the passage says when studied rather than listening to teacher tell us what they want it to say, it is a much much harder teaching than what the teachers are teaching you it means.

I came here wanting to talk about the discrepancies in the passage and totality of scripture and teachings like you are presenting...if you are willing to talk about those discrepancies let me know.  I already presented one about "likewise" or "in like manner" that you didn't address.

Look I have already told you that I am looking for an excuse to believe these teachers you are presenting are right...but I can't find it.
I have no problem with roles...or submission (which I also believe most people get wrong but that is another discussion and again, what I believe it means is a harder teaching than what most mean)

What I have a problem with is the discrepancies I see in scripture when it comes to teachings like you post videos of...and just for the record, this guy confessed that at least in part the teaching comes from a reaction to modern day schemes of Satan which assault our woman in society...let me point out that that is a very good reason to look into the likewise part of the passage, cause men are being bombarded with the same kinds of lies....thus any passage that says likewise is referring to the same things....
I still think if you made a numbered list like 1 thru 10 or whatever, of each discrepancy in the order they are received. lol, we could better tackle each of them one by one. What do you think?
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2019, 01:24:36 pm »
I'm leaving for the weekend (the forum)

I have something to think on while I am gone...if we understand I Tim the way these videos teach it, what does that tell the men about their authority in the church?  More when I return...it's an interesting discussion.
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Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2019, 08:44:03 pm »
I'm leaving for the weekend (the forum)

I have something to think on while I am gone...if we understand I Tim the way these videos teach it, what does that tell the men about their authority in the church?  More when I return...it's an interesting discussion.

This should be interesting?

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2019, 10:37:58 am »
Here are my notes from a bigger study on the role of woman.....it probably leaves out some important things since I am trying to pick through it to only address the Timothy passage.  The whole study looks at submission too and what it means not only that but what Love looks like in all relationships and it has a very heavy lean on the marriage relationship/the Church's relationship as the bride of Christ.

I don't believe we can talk about women submitting to their husbands, without also touching on I Timothy 2:12 and I Corinthians 14:34.  Notice that in Titus, woman are to teach what is good, and then in Timothy and Corinthians, they are told not to teach.  This then either becomes a contradiction in Paul's teaching, or it is necessary to take a bit deeper look into Timothy and Corinthians.  The words here for teach and keeping silent, mirror the teaching in Titus.  In Timothy, the woman is told to not teach by usurping authority over the man.  This usurping is one who with his own hand kills another or self, acts on his own authority, is the absolute master. (Thayer's Lexicon)  If we read the text this way, then the teaching is in fact consistent with Titus, a woman can teach, but only with the authority given her by God, not an authority she forces upon others. (Mark 1:27; II Corinthians 2:17; I Thessalonians 2:4; Titus 2:15; I Peter 4:11) Now keep in mind, that woman were just given the power to be heirs, that is equals with men, this is a new power a new authority they do not know how to deal with, a teaching such as this would be very beneficial to woman and is also consistent with Galatians 3:18 (NIV) There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Likewise, in both passages, the command to keep silent is a word used to refer to a quietness of spirit, that is to keep the peace, don't stir trouble, meekness.  Now go back to I Peter 3:4 (NIV)  Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in Godís sight.  Soon, we will look into the woman of noble character in Proverbs 31 and discover this theme, of a woman having authority, being strong and business like, working as equals along with men, but using that authority only with a quiet and gentle spirit is part of both Old Testament and New Testament teaching.

As I review this, it doesn't talk about the men and the likewise in the men which is also consistent with what I understand it is saying based on this study....have a look at how men with authority are to behave and compare that to what I see here about woman....I Timothy 2 8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

They are to do so with  lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting...IN THE SAME WAY WOMEN...how can woman do it the same way if they are NOT to do it at all?

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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2019, 11:36:37 am »
So question I purposed we think about....I have something to think on while I am gone...if we understand I Tim the way these videos teach it, what does that tell the men about their authority in the church?  More when I return...it's an interesting discussion.

As the Bride of Christ, the church is to take on the role of the wife in Ephesians 5....so when we are talking about men and the church, the men must (if the traditional understanding is correct) stop trying to run the church and usurp their own authority over that of Christ and be silent.   IOW's the men who claim to be in authority to run the local church have no excuse to assert their decisions over that of Christ.  In fact, in the early church, they made decisions based on everyone being in one accord, thus they were exercising the "silence" that men preach woman are instructed to have....how many churches do that today?  How many churches require a 100% vote before making any decisions?  How many men are silent before the HEAD of the CHURCH which is Christ?  Please show me even one.....now, isn't the head the example?  So if men cannot be silent before Christ, why are they so determined to force women or try to shame them into being silent before them, mere human beings?

 

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