patrick jane forums

Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man)

the chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only interested in what scripture tells us...no chip

**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"   Gen 3:16

look at the context....16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The context is clearly talking about the pain of child birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.  The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word is important to our understanding of the text.[/quote]

Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the "; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the commands of our LORD changes.

God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and I both know there are many women who are married but desire someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires outside of the marriage.

In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of man over the woman in the marriage.

Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man. 

God did not give women any authority to usurp the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.

One verse is in GEN 3 and  One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are completely different in context yet the same to some degree.

One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows) and two commands concerning the marriage.

1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon, pastor or other Administrative position that places her above any MAN in the church.

God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow. In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we have come and how far down we have fallen.

please show this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT there.

We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can hookup just about anywhere.

Just because a society is out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in scripture.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Now...let's look at this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.  So obviously there is more to that phrase.  "Nor to usurp authority over the man"  Now I asked you where she got the authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did NOT answer the question.  Obviously she was given authority by someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet spirit...just as men are to have.  So no, in a study of the passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.

The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the second part it is MAN.

The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.

Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the church.

God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this commandment  specifically to the women. Here to we also see just how far we have come and how far we have fallen.

look at the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9 where we transition into woman what does it say?  IN LIKE MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit not words out of the mouth.

You might ask why did he write the commandments?

Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this command on their own.

Is it not also true, there is  a slight chance (depending on the command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed even when it is given.

GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be subjective to your husband.

now...let's talk about godly and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader like that of Christ.  But we fail to teach this, wanting woman to be subservient to men.  If you start looking into the meaning of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non military terms it means to work together, you know, going back to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.

He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of Man in the Church.

Here is what people do NOT get when they talk to me about this topic.  I was raised to be a slave to men...and I was comfortable with that.  It's all I knew.  My husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that that is NOT what Paul is teaching here.  How can I hold to what I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is wrong?  Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me if I ever do.  In fact, I cannot count the number of times I have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of servant leadership.  Amen and amen.

You husband is right, you said:"I was raised to be a slave to men",  This I  have seen all to many times as well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant behavior.

My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.

Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Many men do not do this.

*********

You then said:"likewise in the total passage" 

"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more specific?

see above...

The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically or not.

I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not just some proof texted passage.
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Lori... in the end, we either have to obey God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and the Man has his commands from GOD.

I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph. 5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."




Blade