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Author Topic: The dangers of woman keeping silent...  (Read 1537 times)

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Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2019, 08:09:05 pm »
well I see a few things wrong with the video....

One is his assertion that Gen. says that woman will want their man's authority.  Where does it say that?  The desire is for their husband...not their husbands authority or position.

Second, he leaves out all the "likewise" in the total passage...likewise men....is a reference to the same commands.

That is where I will start with a rebuttal.  I am NOT advocating that he is totally wrong but that he missed some key points that are vital to an accurate understanding of what Paul is teaching.

Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man)

**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"   Gen 3:16

God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow. In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we have come and how far down we have fallen.

We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can hookup just about anywhere.


"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."


God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this commandment  specifically to the women. Here to we also see just how far we have come and how far we have fallen.

You might ask why did he write the commandments?

Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this command on their own.

Is it not also true, there is  a slight chance (depending on the command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed even when it is given.

GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be subjective to your husband.

He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of Man in the Church.

*********

You then said:"likewise in the total passage" 

"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more specific?

The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically or not.

Blade



1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2019, 08:47:20 am »
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man) [/quote] the chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only interested in what scripture tells us...no chip
Quote


**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"   Gen 3:16
look at the context....16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The context is clearly talking about the pain of child birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.  The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word is important to our understanding of the text.

Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man. 
Quote



God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow. In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we have come and how far down we have fallen.
please show this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT there.
Quote


We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can hookup just about anywhere.
Just because a society is out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in scripture.
Quote



"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Now...let's look at this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.  So obviously there is more to that phrase.  "Nor to usurp authority over the man"  Now I asked you where she got the authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did NOT answer the question.  Obviously she was given authority by someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet spirit...just as men are to have.  So no, in a study of the passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
Quote



God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this commandment  specifically to the women. Here to we also see just how far we have come and how far we have fallen.
look at the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9 where we transition into woman what does it say?  IN LIKE MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit not words out of the mouth.
Quote


You might ask why did he write the commandments?

Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this command on their own.

Is it not also true, there is  a slight chance (depending on the command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed even when it is given.

GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be subjective to your husband.
now...let's talk about godly and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader like that of Christ.  But we fail to teach this, wanting woman to be subservient to men.  If you start looking into the meaning of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non military terms it means to work together, you know, going back to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
Quote


He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of Man in the Church.
Here is what people do NOT get when they talk to me about this topic.  I was raised to be a slave to men...and I was comfortable with that.  It's all I knew.  My husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that that is NOT what Paul is teaching here.  How can I hold to what I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is wrong?  Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me if I ever do.  In fact, I cannot count the number of times I have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of servant leadership.  Amen and amen.
Quote

*********

You then said:"likewise in the total passage" 

"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more specific?
see above...
Quote

The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically or not.
I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not just some proof texted passage.

patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2019, 09:16:35 am »
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not a woman's, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:31:07 am by patrick jane »
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2019, 10:49:08 am »
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not a woman's, in my opinion.
Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her authority over the man....where does that authority come from?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority but the womans....over the man's

patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 10:52:45 am »
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not a woman's, in my opinion.
Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her authority over the man....where does that authority come from?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority but the womans....over the man's
The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what that is?
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 10:56:13 am »
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not a woman's, in my opinion.
Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her authority over the man....where does that authority come from?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority but the womans....over the man's
The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what that is?
how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?  She has no control over his authority to usurp it over anyone...?

patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 12:24:45 pm »
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not a woman's, in my opinion.
Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her authority over the man....where does that authority come from?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority but the womans....over the man's
The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what that is?
how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?  She has no control over his authority to usurp it over anyone...?
I don't understand the question, how can a woman NOT assume control over a man, is that what you're asking because that's how it reads. So let's say that women have some authority. Where does the Bible say that and explain what that entails?








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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2019, 12:38:14 pm »
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not a woman's, in my opinion.
Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her authority over the man....where does that authority come from?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority but the womans....over the man's
The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what that is?
how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?  She has no control over his authority to usurp it over anyone...?
I don't understand the question, how can a woman NOT assume control over a man, is that what you're asking because that's how it reads. So let's say that women have some authority. Where does the Bible say that and explain what that entails?








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what I am saying is that the passage instructs women to not usurp authority over the man...now in the culture of the day the woman had no authority to usurp...so where in the verse does that authority come from?  If she has no authority to usurp why would there be a teaching on not usurping the authority she does NOT have?  It would be like me giving an instruction to my baby on how to drive a car even though they couldn't drive yet...what is the point of such instruction if there is no authority for her to usurp in the first place?
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patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2019, 12:50:18 pm »
Lori, I can see how you can interpret that from the verse but then we need at least one more verse to reprove that. That leads to the question of where else in the whole Bible does God speak of a woman's authority, or any of the Bible authors?
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2019, 01:15:59 pm »
Lori, I can see how you can interpret that from the verse but then we need at least one more verse to reprove that. That leads to the question of where else in the whole Bible does God speak of a woman's authority, or any of the Bible authors?
fair enough....Proverbs 31...the wife of noble character for one....notice some of the things it says about the wife of noble character...she is doing business with the important men of the day...we also see woman in authority throughout scripture...like https://margmowczko.com/the-propriety-of-women-with-authority/

we can go further...Christianity was like the womens rights movement of the day....NOW that does NOT mean it is like our woman's movement but rather it was liberating for the woman of the day and they didn't have any basis to know what to do with that new found freedom they had in Christ.  So they needed instruction on how to use this new found freedom to the glory of God.  It doesn't mean that God was keeping them silent but rather trying to teach them that there is a time and place and since He gave them the authority, they needed to wait for Him to open the door to use it...

another scripture...Galatians 3:28
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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 10:51:10 pm »
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man)
the chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only interested in what scripture tells us...no chip
Quote


**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"   Gen 3:16
look at the context....16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The context is clearly talking about the pain of child birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.  The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word is important to our understanding of the text.[/quote]

Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the "; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the commands of our LORD changes.

God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and I both know there are many women who are married but desire someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires outside of the marriage.

In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of man over the woman in the marriage.


Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man. 


God did not give women any authority to usurp the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.

One verse is in GEN 3 and  One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are completely different in context yet the same to some degree.

One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows) and two commands concerning the marriage.

1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon, pastor or other Administrative position that places her above any MAN in the church.


God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow. In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we have come and how far down we have fallen.
please show this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT there.
Quote


We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can hookup just about anywhere.
Just because a society is out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in scripture.
Quote



"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Now...let's look at this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.  So obviously there is more to that phrase.  "Nor to usurp authority over the man"  Now I asked you where she got the authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did NOT answer the question.  Obviously she was given authority by someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet spirit...just as men are to have.  So no, in a study of the passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
Quote

The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the second part it is MAN.

The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.

Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the church.



God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this commandment  specifically to the women. Here to we also see just how far we have come and how far we have fallen.
look at the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9 where we transition into woman what does it say?  IN LIKE MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit not words out of the mouth.
Quote


You might ask why did he write the commandments?

Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this command on their own.

Is it not also true, there is  a slight chance (depending on the command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed even when it is given.

GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be subjective to your husband.
now...let's talk about godly and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader like that of Christ.  But we fail to teach this, wanting woman to be subservient to men.  If you start looking into the meaning of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non military terms it means to work together, you know, going back to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
Quote


He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of Man in the Church.
Here is what people do NOT get when they talk to me about this topic.  I was raised to be a slave to men...and I was comfortable with that.  It's all I knew.  My husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that that is NOT what Paul is teaching here.  How can I hold to what I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is wrong?  Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me if I ever do.  In fact, I cannot count the number of times I have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of servant leadership.  Amen and amen.
Quote

You husband is right, you said:"I was raised to be a slave to men",  This I  have seen all to many times as well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant behavior.

My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.

Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Many men do not do this.


*********

You then said:"likewise in the total passage" 

"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more specific?
see above...
Quote

The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically or not.


I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not just some proof texted passage.
[/quote]

Lori... in the end, we either have to obey God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and the Man has his commands from GOD.

I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph. 5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."




Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2019, 09:13:24 am »
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man)
the chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only interested in what scripture tells us...no chip
Quote


**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"   Gen 3:16
look at the context....16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The context is clearly talking about the pain of child birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.  The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word is important to our understanding of the text.

Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the "; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the commands of our LORD changes.

God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and I both know there are many women who are married but desire someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires outside of the marriage.

In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of man over the woman in the marriage.[/quote] HUH?  You want me to believe that the subject changes without warning from desiring your husband even though it will hurt to bear his children to the man's authority...how strange, either that or I am not following your argument...people, both men and woman are evil...what does that have to do with a change in subject without warning that there is a change midway? 
Quote



Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man. 


God did not give women any authority to usurp the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.

One verse is in GEN 3 and  One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are completely different in context yet the same to some degree.

One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows) and two commands concerning the marriage.

1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon, pastor or other Administrative position that places her above any MAN in the church.
So repeating your assumptions does NOT address what the text says.  Let's try this again...When the passage says that we woman are NOT to usurp authority over a man it is not the man's authority that she is not allowed to usurp over a man...so where did her authority she is not suppose to usurp over the man come from...?  that is the question...The passage in Gen. is talking about desiring your husband even though it will result in pain according to the context.as to marriage what part of that passage do you want to talk about?
Quote


God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow. In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we have come and how far down we have fallen.
please show this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT there.
Quote


We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can hookup just about anywhere.
Just because a society is out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in scripture.
Quote



"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Now...let's look at this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.  So obviously there is more to that phrase.  "Nor to usurp authority over the man"  Now I asked you where she got the authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did NOT answer the question.  Obviously she was given authority by someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet spirit...just as men are to have.  So no, in a study of the passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
Quote

The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the second part it is MAN.
so in this passage there is NO change in subject but in the Gen. passage there is?  What makes us think that is a solid exegesis of scripture?

Ah but that was not my point about teaching...my point was that obviously something is missing in our interpretation when we see "I do not suffer woman to teach" but then we see them admonished to teach both children and younger woman...so the "literal" teaching is a bit off based on what we know about teaching...
Quote


The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.

Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the church.[/shadow]
again you failed to make your case, all you did was repeat what was already said and offered no rebuttal of what I pointed out to you.

Silence means quiet as in quiet and peaceful spirit, just like the men...that is the point.
Quote


God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this commandment  specifically to the women. Here to we also see just how far we have come and how far we have fallen.
look at the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9 where we transition into woman what does it say?  IN LIKE MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit not words out of the mouth.
Quote


You might ask why did he write the commandments?

Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this command on their own.

Is it not also true, there is  a slight chance (depending on the command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed even when it is given.

GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be subjective to your husband.
now...let's talk about godly and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader like that of Christ.  But we fail to teach this, wanting woman to be subservient to men.  If you start looking into the meaning of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non military terms it means to work together, you know, going back to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
Quote


He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of Man in the Church.
Here is what people do NOT get when they talk to me about this topic.  I was raised to be a slave to men...and I was comfortable with that.  It's all I knew.  My husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that that is NOT what Paul is teaching here.  How can I hold to what I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is wrong?  Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me if I ever do.  In fact, I cannot count the number of times I have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of servant leadership.  Amen and amen.
Quote

You husband is right, you said:"I was raised to be a slave to men",  This I  have seen all to many times as well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant behavior.

My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.
No where that I know of does scripture tell woman to be silent in their marriage...and the passage in question does NOT command woman to be silent in their churches either...at least as it is studied using the totality of scripture to interpret scripture....now that does NOT mean I am advocating woman take over the church or even become pastors...what I am saying is that that teaching is no where in scripture that I can find and thus we dare not read into the scripture what is not there.

For example...who did Christ choose to first preach the truth of his resurrection?  A man or a woman?  Telling the world about His resurrection is the very message of the Church and it was women that first took the gospel message to the men of the church....so how then can we claim that woman have no authority to teach men when Christ Himself chose woman to teach the men about His resurrection...?  Did Christ violate the command of Paul about women teaching men?
Quote


Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Many men do not do this.[/shadow]

*********

You then said:"likewise in the total passage" 

"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more specific?
see above...
Quote

The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically or not.


I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not just some proof texted passage.

Lori... in the end, we either have to obey God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and the Man has his commands from GOD.
but you have failed to show how your interpretation of the passage is in correct line with the totality of scripture.
Quote


I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph. 5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."




Blade[/shadow]
not sure how that informs us of this passages intent...

Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2019, 11:15:07 pm »
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man)
the chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only interested in what scripture tells us...no chip
Quote


**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"   Gen 3:16
look at the context....16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The context is clearly talking about the pain of child birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.  The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word is important to our understanding of the text.

Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the "; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the commands of our LORD changes.

God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and I both know there are many women who are married but desire someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires outside of the marriage.

In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of man over the woman in the marriage.
HUH?  You want me to believe that the subject changes without warning from desiring your husband even though it will hurt to bear his children to the man's authority...how strange, either that or I am not following your argument...people, both men and woman are evil...what does that have to do with a change in subject without warning that there is a change midway? 
Quote



Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man. 


God did not give women any authority to usurp the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.

One verse is in GEN 3 and  One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are completely different in context yet the same to some degree.

One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows) and two commands concerning the marriage.

1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon, pastor or other Administrative position that places her above any MAN in the church.
So repeating your assumptions does NOT address what the text says.  Let's try this again...When the passage says that we woman are NOT to usurp authority over a man it is not the man's authority that she is not allowed to usurp over a man...so where did her authority she is not suppose to usurp over the man come from...?  that is the question...The passage in Gen. is talking about desiring your husband even though it will result in pain according to the context.as to marriage what part of that passage do you want to talk about?
Quote


God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow. In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we have come and how far down we have fallen.
please show this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT there.
Quote


We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can hookup just about anywhere.
Just because a society is out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in scripture.
Quote



"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Now...let's look at this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.  So obviously there is more to that phrase.  "Nor to usurp authority over the man"  Now I asked you where she got the authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did NOT answer the question.  Obviously she was given authority by someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet spirit...just as men are to have.  So no, in a study of the passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
Quote

The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the second part it is MAN.
so in this passage there is NO change in subject but in the Gen. passage there is?  What makes us think that is a solid exegesis of scripture?

Ah but that was not my point about teaching...my point was that obviously something is missing in our interpretation when we see "I do not suffer woman to teach" but then we see them admonished to teach both children and younger woman...so the "literal" teaching is a bit off based on what we know about teaching...
Quote


The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.

Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the church.[/shadow]
again you failed to make your case, all you did was repeat what was already said and offered no rebuttal of what I pointed out to you.

Silence means quiet as in quiet and peaceful spirit, just like the men...that is the point.
Quote


God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this commandment  specifically to the women. Here to we also see just how far we have come and how far we have fallen.
look at the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9 where we transition into woman what does it say?  IN LIKE MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit not words out of the mouth.
Quote


You might ask why did he write the commandments?

Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this command on their own.

Is it not also true, there is  a slight chance (depending on the command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed even when it is given.

GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be subjective to your husband.
now...let's talk about godly and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader like that of Christ.  But we fail to teach this, wanting woman to be subservient to men.  If you start looking into the meaning of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non military terms it means to work together, you know, going back to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
Quote


He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of Man in the Church.
Here is what people do NOT get when they talk to me about this topic.  I was raised to be a slave to men...and I was comfortable with that.  It's all I knew.  My husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that that is NOT what Paul is teaching here.  How can I hold to what I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is wrong?  Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me if I ever do.  In fact, I cannot count the number of times I have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of servant leadership.  Amen and amen.
Quote

You husband is right, you said:"I was raised to be a slave to men",  This I  have seen all to many times as well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant behavior.

My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.
No where that I know of does scripture tell woman to be silent in their marriage...and the passage in question does NOT command woman to be silent in their churches either...at least as it is studied using the totality of scripture to interpret scripture....now that does NOT mean I am advocating woman take over the church or even become pastors...what I am saying is that that teaching is no where in scripture that I can find and thus we dare not read into the scripture what is not there.

For example...who did Christ choose to first preach the truth of his resurrection?  A man or a woman?  Telling the world about His resurrection is the very message of the Church and it was women that first took the gospel message to the men of the church....so how then can we claim that woman have no authority to teach men when Christ Himself chose woman to teach the men about His resurrection...?  Did Christ violate the command of Paul about women teaching men?
Quote


Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Many men do not do this.[/shadow]

*********

You then said:"likewise in the total passage" 

"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more specific?
see above...
Quote

The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically or not.


I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not just some proof texted passage.

Lori... in the end, we either have to obey God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and the Man has his commands from GOD.
but you have failed to show how your interpretation of the passage is in correct line with the totality of scripture.
Quote


I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph. 5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."




Blade[/shadow]
not sure how that informs us of this passages intent...
[/quote]

********************

Lori..1 Tim 2:11-12.."“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet” NASB95

1 Tim 2: 11-12  "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."  KJV

Paul here defines women as learners during the worship service. They are not to be teachers in that context, but neither are they to be shut out of the learning process.1

There have been a lot of women who have used as you have a different meaning of the word "quietly/silence". You Said: ".but to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet spirit.."

In other words, women can teach and preach as long as they have the proper attitude. Is this what you mean!

Paul's words in verse 12, implies that women wanted (desired) to teach and have authority (over man). We have this in today's church as well as women who do not want or like their GOD-given roles in this life.  They want authority over men and more.

Paul took the right road and forbids Women from taking an authoritative teacher-pastor role in the church. He forbids women from exercising authority over a man1.

The Greek word "authentein" meaning "“exercise authority over,”  was discussed at the Atlantic District Convention (June 3-4, 1994) requesting that the Commission on Theology and Church Relations address concerns related to the “terms and definitions” 3. Their conclusion was:

"Though they have expanded and refined Knight‟s analysis, the lexical studies conducted since 1985, in the Commission‟s view, have strongly confirmed Knight‟s basic conclusion. The studies have confirmed that the term ought to be translated “exercise authority over.” In the Commission‟s view the English Standard Version accurately translates 1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” [/b] Adopted April 16, 2005..... 2

“As in all the churches of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says . . . it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church” (1 Corinthians 14:33–35, NIV).

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."   1 Cor 14:33-35..KJV

While Paul wrote this epistle to Timothy and to the church of Ephesus in general, one might interpret this command was for this culture/churches only.However, Yet the way Paul uses the word (Forbids), made it for churches of today.

Lori... It is really up to you on which way you interpret these verses. I urge you to read some the references I have posted before you make up your mind.

********

Blade


(1)Can Women Exercise Authority in the Church? ,Unleashing God's Truth, One Verse at a Time

(2)AUTHENTEIN, the Atlantic District
Convention (June 3-4, 1994) requesting that the Commission on Theology and Church Relations address concerns related to the “terms and definitions” of the following “as they explicate how women function as the church”..


1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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