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Author Topic: The dangers of woman keeping silent...  (Read 1524 times)

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Lori Bolinger

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The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« on: March 06, 2019, 08:55:18 am »
I do not want to talk about what you all think  I Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence....is really saying...that discussion is an old one and I have found after careful study of the passage that only a small handful of people really get what it is teaching.  However, I would like to talk about what the traditional understanding of I Timothy 2:12 results in when it comes to woman in Christ.



Some background...a few years ago, some things were going on in our lives and the result was that I felt God was telling me to take a traditional understanding of I Timothy 2:12 then listen to what He was teaching me about it.  The result was that I discovered that the traditional understanding is very dangerous to woman in the church.



To start this discussion about what some of the dangers are, I will offer up a few that I learned.

1. To demand that woman keep silent in church removes them from the body....I Corinthians 12:27

2.  To demand woman to keep silent quenches what the HS wants to do in the body of believers...1 Thessalonians 5:19

3.  To demand woman to keep silent quenches their testimony of what God has and is doing...in essence silencing the testimony of Christ to the world....1 Peter 3:15

4.  To demand woman to keep silent removes some wonderful wisdom from God...James 1:5

5.  To demand woman to keep silent is to dismiss scripture...Galatians 3:28-29



This is just a beginning list and offers a different perspective of why the traditional interpretation of this passage is flawed. 

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truthjourney

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2019, 06:09:48 pm »
I believe the scriptures speak of women who didn't keep silent. There are also examples in the Old Testament.

Luke 2:36 And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,

Acts 18:24And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spoke and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Acts 21:8And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9And the same man had four daughters, virgins, who did prophesy.

Philippians 4:3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Romans 16:1-2 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2I ask you to receive her in the LORD in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 06:18:07 pm by truthjourney »
Eph. 5:11 Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose and rebuke them.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2019, 09:13:49 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed. 
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patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2019, 10:01:51 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2019, 11:24:13 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
I've heard a lot of excuses but I don't recall hearing that one.  When I did an in depth study into it, I was amazed at how simple it seems...short version...Don't force your new found  freedom on the church but rather wait for ME to open the doors for you.
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Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2019, 07:11:21 pm »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
I've heard a lot of excuses but I don't recall hearing that one.  When I did an in depth study into it, I was amazed at how simple it seems...short version...Don't force your new found  freedom on the church but rather wait for ME to open the doors for you.

Hi Lori..... Was wondering what is your interpretation of the "traditional understanding" of the scriptures of 1 Tim 2.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 09:02:03 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
I've heard a lot of excuses but I don't recall hearing that one.  When I did an in depth study into it, I was amazed at how simple it seems...short version...Don't force your new found  freedom on the church but rather wait for ME to open the doors for you.

Hi Lori..... Was wondering what is your interpretation of the "traditional understanding" of the scriptures of 1 Tim 2.

Blade

the traditional understanding makes woman subservient to men and requires women to not speak or teach and pretends that they cannot know anything about scripture and God.  In fact, some go so far (not all) as to claim that Gen. says the woman will want her husbands authority, that women cannot study scripture for themselves, and that their salvation is through their husband not through Christ.  There are of course extremes but the basic traditional teaching says that woman cannot have a say in the church.  In fact, I was once told that I couldn't study scripture because I might accidently teach a man something he doesn't know which would violate that scripture about woman keeping silent in church.  Basically, it is a method of keeping men in control.
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patrick jane

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 09:24:58 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
I've heard a lot of excuses but I don't recall hearing that one.  When I did an in depth study into it, I was amazed at how simple it seems...short version...Don't force your new found  freedom on the church but rather wait for ME to open the doors for you.

Hi Lori..... Was wondering what is your interpretation of the "traditional understanding" of the scriptures of 1 Tim 2.

Blade

the traditional understanding makes woman subservient to men and requires women to not speak or teach and pretends that they cannot know anything about scripture and God.  In fact, some go so far (not all) as to claim that Gen. says the woman will want her husbands authority, that women cannot study scripture for themselves, and that their salvation is through their husband not through Christ.  There are of course extremes but the basic traditional teaching says that woman cannot have a say in the church.  In fact, I was once told that I couldn't study scripture because I might accidently teach a man something he doesn't know which would violate that scripture about woman keeping silent in church.  Basically, it is a method of keeping men in control.
I believe strongly that women can teach children and adults scripture, meaning and interpretation and doctrine in everyday life. Personally, I wouldn't have a woman as my pastor but that's because it's what I'm used to. I would rather hear a man preach. However on forums such as this it's an overall learning experience because everyone is anonymous. Women have wisdom and different perspectives than men that should embraced and appreciated.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2019, 10:12:40 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
I've heard a lot of excuses but I don't recall hearing that one.  When I did an in depth study into it, I was amazed at how simple it seems...short version...Don't force your new found  freedom on the church but rather wait for ME to open the doors for you.

Hi Lori..... Was wondering what is your interpretation of the "traditional understanding" of the scriptures of 1 Tim 2.

Blade

the traditional understanding makes woman subservient to men and requires women to not speak or teach and pretends that they cannot know anything about scripture and God.  In fact, some go so far (not all) as to claim that Gen. says the woman will want her husbands authority, that women cannot study scripture for themselves, and that their salvation is through their husband not through Christ.  There are of course extremes but the basic traditional teaching says that woman cannot have a say in the church.  In fact, I was once told that I couldn't study scripture because I might accidently teach a man something he doesn't know which would violate that scripture about woman keeping silent in church.  Basically, it is a method of keeping men in control.
I believe strongly that women can teach children and adults scripture, meaning and interpretation and doctrine in everyday life. Personally, I wouldn't have a woman as my pastor but that's because it's what I'm used to. I would rather hear a man preach. However on forums such as this it's an overall learning experience because everyone is anonymous. Women have wisdom and different perspectives than men that should embraced and appreciated.
It's interesting you say that about woman preachers...personally I find nothing in scripture against it, however, the only woman pastor I have had experience to was horrible!!!! and so it has pretty much turned me off of woman as clergy.  It shows the importance of men or woman truly being called by God not just claim they are.
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Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2019, 01:39:54 am »
I firmly believe that scripture interprets scripture....therefore if the traditional understanding of the passage cannot fit into the totality of scripture then the interpretation is flawed and needs to be reviewed.
Have you heard of the Biblical scholars believing that many of the church instructions fro Paul were NOT written by Paul but were added centuries later?
I've heard a lot of excuses but I don't recall hearing that one.  When I did an in depth study into it, I was amazed at how simple it seems...short version...Don't force your new found  freedom on the church but rather wait for ME to open the doors for you.

Hi Lori..... Was wondering what is your interpretation of the "traditional understanding" of the scriptures of 1 Tim 2.

Blade

the traditional understanding makes woman subservient to men and requires women to not speak or teach and pretends that they cannot know anything about scripture and God.  In fact, some go so far (not all) as to claim that Gen. says the woman will want her husbands authority, that women cannot study scripture for themselves, and that their salvation is through their husband not through Christ.  There are of course extremes but the basic traditional teaching says that woman cannot have a say in the church.  In fact, I was once told that I couldn't study scripture because I might accidently teach a man something he doesn't know which would violate that scripture about woman keeping silent in church.  Basically, it is a method of keeping men in control.
I believe strongly that women can teach children and adults scripture, meaning and interpretation and doctrine in everyday life. Personally, I wouldn't have a woman as my pastor but that's because it's what I'm used to. I would rather hear a man preach. However on forums such as this it's an overall learning experience because everyone is anonymous. Women have wisdom and different perspectives than men that should embraced and appreciated.
It's interesting you say that about woman preachers...personally I find nothing in scripture against it, however, the only woman pastor I have had experience to was horrible!!!! and so it has pretty much turned me off of woman as clergy.  It shows the importance of men or woman truly being called by God not just claim they are.

Lori, it has taken me some time to get back to you on this subject. As a man, I realize it is a sensitive subject but also a simple subject that has been taken out of context and blown out of shape in this day and age.

I know you know what I am about to say so please bare with me. Also, I am a firm believer that all the Words of Paul's epistle (down to the last Yot & Title) is that of Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy was an epistle of Paul to a young Timothy who had taken over the reigns of the Baby Christian Church at Ephesus. Please consider the times and what was going on.  In Chapter 1, Paul is telling Timothy how to be a good pastor and how to control the those causing trouble in the church.

In Chapter 2:1-3.. Paul writes in the first three verses that men are suppose to do the Prayers, etc. in PUBLIC.

Then in 1 Tim 2:4-8.. we see Paul is talking about the men (Preachers)  and What they are supposed to be (saved and believe in the truth (Gospel of Jesus Christ)). They are supposed to realize that Jesus is the mediator between man and His father and NOT a man is a mediator to GOD.

The Paul in verses 8-15. give the directions for women in the congregation. How they should act, dress. etc.

Then in verse 11.."Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."   Again this is in the church. My grandfather was a Baptist Preacher and His wife, my grandmother play the organ and taught the children and other women. But the Silence of verse 11 is (I believe) restricted to the administration of the church. This belief is based upon following verses.

Lori, I have been married fifty years this year and I can proudly say I wear the pants of the family!  OH,, no I heard that.......lol.....shame on you...LOL

Yet, I can also tell you, my wife tells me what color and type of pants to wear! lol
We work together as a team of good mules have to.

In verse 12. Paul emphasizes the woman is not to teach the gospel to men, or  try to correct the authority of man in the church.... The silence at the end is more to point to verse 11 as verse 12 is its definition.

1 Tim 2:12"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."


My other set of Grandparents were godly people who never missed a time in the church when the doors  were opened. Yet, my grandmother sang in the choir, played piano. There were a lot of women who had plenty of things to do in the church without having to bother with the administration of the church.  Of course their husbands did have access to the church administration and as my wife pick the colors and type of pants I wear, the woman has some control alibet it is in the background.

In verse 13-14, Paul gives the reason(straight out, cannot be said much plainer)why GOD has ruled this way.

I want to stress that in today's society, women are in all areas of what use to be man's treehouse. I have no problem with the women working but only if GOD has guided them to do so. WHY would I say this?

There are a lot of women that use the workforce to NOT have children. Some want to put off childbearing until later on in life when finances might be better. Others put it off for party time. As one can see the woman is exalted because of childbearing in verse 15.

verse 15:"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."


I have got to say that people have lost their fear of GOD. By losing that fear of GOD, we see that the commands of GOD are summarily dismissed in a lot of cases. Women pastor, deacon, elders are NOT an option in the church (according to GOD's direct commands at Ephesus).  The results have been the falling away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ as prophesied in

2 Thes 2:3.."Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The bottom line Lori is that silence in the church is only limited to the administration or the authority of man. Again this is limited to the church not life in general.

For as we see in Chapter 5:2, "Elder women are called mothers"... Motherhood has a very special place in the heart of Jesus Christ. No man can ever achieve that.

Chapter 3,4,5,6 are another post.

Hope this helped....Hope you have a great Monday...Lori

Blade



1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 08:46:16 am »
I enjoyed the response...mostly we agree so don't take this as a disagreement per say...

first I want to say that my husband is the one that first challenged me to look at what the text actually does say not how it is traditionally taught.  IOWs my husband, a man, challenged the traditional teaching, not me.  When I talk about what it means, most people (especially men) try to blame it on me being a woman.

Now that being said, let me ask you this and see what answer you can offer...I have repeatedly asked the question and no one has been able or willing to give me an answer....in verse 1 Tim 2:12"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

If a woman is NOT to usurp her authority over a man, where did her authority that she is not to usurp come from?  It could not come from the men at the time because at the time woman had no authority...so who gave her the authority she was NOT to usurp over men....this is just one curious comment in the passage if we are trying to understand what is really being said.

Bladerunner

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2019, 10:38:16 pm »
I enjoyed the response...mostly we agree so don't take this as a disagreement per say...

first I want to say that my husband is the one that first challenged me to look at what the text actually does say not how it is traditionally taught.  IOWs my husband, a man, challenged the traditional teaching, not me.  When I talk about what it means, most people (especially men) try to blame it on me being a woman.

Sounds like a smart man, and He is lucky to have you as his better half.

Now that being said, let me ask you this and see what answer you can offer...I have repeatedly asked the question and no one has been able or willing to give me an answer....in verse 1 Tim 2:12"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

If a woman is NOT to usurp her authority over a man, where did her authority that she is not to usurp come from?  It could not come from the men at the time because at the time woman had no authority...so who gave her the authority she was NOT to usurp over men....this is just one curious comment in the passage if we are trying to understand what is really being said.

Lori, Thank you for comments and question. In 1 Time 2:9-15..God is telling women how he wants them to be in the public church. To answer your question, here is a link to an old friend I have followed for a long time. His clarity of this subject is why I am sending you to him.  I do  ask that both you and your husband listen to the 1 TIM 2:9-15 explanation.

It sounds like you and your husband pull together like a good team of mules! Not a better sight to be found!

I do hope this video (22min) helps. If it does not, let me know, I will research your concerns a little further.

Thank you again and hope you and your husband have a great evening.

Blade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U94nTFxcd1g

1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Lori Bolinger

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Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 09:21:03 am »
well I see a few things wrong with the video....

One is his assertion that Gen. says that woman will want their man's authority.  Where does it say that?  The desire is for their husband...not their husbands authority or position.

Second, he leaves out all the "likewise" in the total passage...likewise men....is a reference to the same commands.

That is where I will start with a rebuttal.  I am NOT advocating that he is totally wrong but that he missed some key points that are vital to an accurate understanding of what Paul is teaching. 
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