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Author Topic: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell  (Read 2743 times)

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Jon Wood

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Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« on: September 09, 2018, 11:17:47 pm »



So im Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential problem and I dont know if its been pointed out elsewhere.

With full access to  your consciousness, you would have access to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you werent so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly be tormented for all eternity? If they arent subject to that torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea of Jesus? I dont think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to not be a selfish jerk, but im Sure its a pretty common way. So I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal torment.

On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially soothing information, is that person fully themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have been before they were altered for the torment?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 11:24:24 pm by patrick jane »

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1Mind1Spirit

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 01:20:28 am »
Judgement can be a bitch.
Thank God he sent Jesus, who came willingly.
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truthjourney

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2018, 04:45:13 am »
So im Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential problem and I dont know if its been pointed out elsewhere.

With full access to  your consciousness, you would have access to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you werent so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly be tormented for all eternity? If they arent subject to that torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea of Jesus? I dont think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to not be a selfish jerk, but im Sure its a pretty common way. So I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal torment.

On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially soothing information, is that person fully themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have been before they were altered for the torment?
I think I understand what you're saying and I agree.

I have always since I was a small child had a problem with the belief in hellfire as it was called then. Because when I was a child, I felt a closeness to God and the way He presented himself to me that his characteristics were unconditional love, mercy, compassion, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness. The idea that he could torment someone for eternity in hellfire was something that I would never have believed about Him. If I had believed that then there would have been a wall put up between me and Him, a separation, the closeness and trust and faith I had in Him would have been basically destroyed. Because I grew up in a very abusive environment with people who took pleasure in torture and other things I won't mention. So I did not view God as being the same way as these people were. He was the opposite of what they were. He was good and they were evil. He was light and they were darkness. He was love and they were hate. He was gentle and they were cruel. I thought of Him as a very loving heavenly Father who always made me feel loved and he gave me strength to endure what was happening to me.

But over the years as I was growing up, I went to churches and hellfire was continually preached to the point that I began to feel a morbid fear of God. I lost that closeness I had with Him. A wall was put up, a barrier, that separated me from Him. He was being misrepresented and described in human terms. The things that humans do to each other. The way that humans think. Down through history, and I learned about how people would be burned at the stake. I learned from the scriptures how babies were offered up to Baal and burned alive. Jer. 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind....Jer. 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
I learned how people used torture on others in the most heinous ways. And at the same time I was being taught in churches that God was the same way as humans, just as cruel or more so than humans because he was going to torture and torment people in hellfire for eternity. And I battled with this and became angry with God because I had been so conditioned to view him as being so much worse than humans and the things that humans do to each other.

When I was 15, I was in a foster home and there was this little girl brought there. She was 7 years old. Her mother had burned her hands on the stove and they were disfigured. Every night she would have nightmares, screaming in agony while clutching her hands together. Every night I would hear her screaming in pain and agony while clutching her hands together. I tried to calm and reassure her till she went back to sleep. And I started thinking about this. I was thinking about her mother and what a monster she was to do that to this little girl. And then the thought occurred to me, well isn't that the way you view God now? Do you really believe that God is as cruel as this little girl's mother was? Is he a monster the way you view her mother? That was a turning point for me. It really made a major impression on me.

Then after I got married and had children, there was no way that I would ever even consider the thought of burning my children alive. Does that mean that I have more love and compassion than God does? No, I do not. God is perfect and is love. His ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. He cannot be compared with humans that way. It is humans whose ways are cruel and evil and who enjoy the idea of torture, not all humans of course but many do.

So the walls have been torn down that separated me from God. the barriers are gone. I now view God almost the same way as I did when I was a child. I say almost because I can't quite recapture that childlike trust and faith that I had in God then. But it's close enough. I view Him as a loving Heavenly Father.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 05:05:18 am by truthjourney »
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Jon Wood

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2018, 08:36:32 am »
 
Yes maam, nobody had to scare me into following Jesus to know get to know God lol. I think its real easy for a lot of folks to twist God into their own personal form of revenge on an enemy. If they think real hard and their heart is in all the wrong places, they can make the Bible say nearly anything they want to justify being a horrible person themselves. People like that are why some people think that if the Bible is true, then God is evil. The crazy part is for me, even if God did turn out to be evil (which He isnt, we just think like humans) I dont think that id Care, because Jesus has shown me how to look past evil and love anyway. (Granted, im Not real good at it yet lol)

Gods judgement is truly just, whether I know what exactly that entails or not, im Not the source of all justness so im No expert on the matter lol. But there is a little bit of mental gymnastics to go through to show me that the standard explanation of eternal torture in hellfire works on an unbeliever who is selfless and can find comfort in the security of those who are not sentenced to the same fate as they are.

I think a part of what made that person who they were would have to be complete removed or changed to make the punishment work in that situation. im Not sure of how that could be so and it still be The same person/soul.
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joechan82

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 09:53:53 am »
I hate to be this guy, but the Bible says what the Bible says. When we prune the parts we don't like out of it, we form God in our own image. I hate the thought of hell, especially because I have friends and family who are going there. But look at the other side of it all.  Look at the betrayal, the mockery, the scourging, and the crucifixion of Christ. What suffering He endured for our sake! Why did He do that?
I had a cousin tell me that she could not imagine her children having a sin nature, therefore they don't need a savior. How sad. She denies the sin nature and thus a need for salvation. This is why I think it is crucial to believe all of the Bible. (Even the parts we cannot understand.)
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Jon Wood

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 03:18:03 pm »
I hate to be this guy, but the Bible says what the Bible says. When we prune the parts we don't like out of it, we form God in our own image. I hate the thought of hell, especially because I have friends and family who are going there. But look at the other side of it all.  Look at the betrayal, the mockery, the scourging, and the crucifixion of Christ. What suffering He endured for our sake! Why did He do that?
I had a cousin tell me that she could not imagine her children having a sin nature, therefore they don't need a savior. How sad. She denies the sin nature and thus a need for salvation. This is why I think it is crucial to believe all of the Bible. (Even the parts we cannot understand.)

The point wasnt necessarily where I stand on eternal hellfire (whether I believe it or not), but it was about an odd thought concerning the popular imagery involved (I do admit that I got tangential and put the discussion off track.) If God decided thats whats gonna happen to those who arent of Him, then I have no qualms about it lol. What we do have in this thread is a neat little theological question to ask God if He takes questions from idiots like me who like to know odd tidbits of information.

 Funny enough, as I was going about my day, I think there may be a certain fringe state of consciousness that could apply to the topic that is normally unobservable because it may typically be instantaneous in the human experience. There may be a perpetuation of a moment near a traumatically induces black out state, but again, is that state full consciousness? It reminds me of a dream I had of dying a few years back (I wish i could explain it, because it was a beautiful and disturbing dream, however that works lol)

 Anyway, I thought it was a good topic, the original concept took me all of 5 minutes to put together late last night and it took me all day to come up with my own best guess at an answer today. I think I make people worry about me unintentionally lol. Thanks for playing!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 03:50:40 pm by Jon Wood »

joechan82

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2018, 04:27:19 pm »
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
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patrick jane

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 04:35:01 pm »
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
It is a great topic to me. It's very meaning to us is eternal. As much as I don't want there to be eternal suffering for anyone we have to accept what God says. How can God do that? Deep thinking required.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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Jon Wood

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2018, 09:09:16 am »
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.

Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort and freedom I have with it is because I was never really indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and im Just weird lol. I dont think that Im deeper than anyone, I just look at things a different way than many I guess.

Jon Wood

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2018, 09:13:50 am »
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
It is a great topic to me. It's very meaning to us is eternal. As much as I don't want there to be eternal suffering for anyone we have to accept what God says. How can God do that? Deep thinking required.

Exactly, the question is based on a common understanding of a doctrine that most of us believe and goes into How in the Hell does that work? I understand that its a scary thought and kinda depressing too, but I think about it and I just wanna know if I can understand what goes on in that situation.
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Jon Wood

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2018, 09:19:25 am »
Also, ive Always worked under the assumption that Hell is forever and you suffer for all eternity with your mind working like it does in your daily life, so the question challenged that for me. I also hear that there is reason to look into the possibility of annihilation of the damned and Im intrigued if that can sway me in that direction as making more sense. I have researched neither in depth at all, but I feel free to consider and give plausibility to both until I can find reason that one is true and the other is misunderstanding. If they both have the same amount of validity, then that is a very interesting thing to look at as well. 
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patrick jane

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2018, 11:10:48 am »
Also, ive Always worked under the assumption that Hell is forever and you suffer for all eternity with your mind working like it does in your daily life, so the question challenged that for me. I also hear that there is reason to look into the possibility of annihilation of the damned and Im intrigued if that can sway me in that direction as making more sense. I have researched neither in depth at all, but I feel free to consider and give plausibility to both until I can find reason that one is true and the other is misunderstanding. If they both have the same amount of validity, then that is a very interesting thing to look at as well.
True, so true. Here's a cute little song by Phil Collins and Genesis from my high school days. Until just a few months ago I never knew the song was about going to hell and being in hell forever. I loved the song before but now it has a whole new depth to it. Listen to the words.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPacHTBavoc


"Home By The Sea"


Creeping up the blind side, shinning up the wall
stealing thru the dark of night
Climbing thru a window, stepping to the floor
checking to the left and the right
Picking up the pieces, putting them away
something doesn't feel quite right

Help me someone, let me out of here
then out of the dark was suddenly heard
welcome to the Home by the Sea

Coming out the woodwork, thru the open door
pushing from above and below
shadows but no substance, in the shape of men
round and down and sideways they go
adrift without direction, eyes that hold despair
then as one they sigh and they moan

Help us someone, let us out of here
living here so long undisturbed
dreaming of the time we were free
so many years ago
before the time when we first heard
welcome to the Home by the Sea

Sit down Sit down
as we relive our lives in what we tell you

Images of sorrow, pictures of delight
things that go to make up a life
endless days of summer longer nights of gloom
waiting for the morning light
scenes of unimportance, photos in a frame
things that go to make up a life

Help us someone, let us out of here
cos living here so long undisturbed
dreaming of the time we were free
so many years ago
before the time when we first heard
welcome to the Home by the Sea

Sit down Sit down
as we relive out lives in what we tell you
let us relive out lives in what we tell you

Sit down Sit down
cos you won't get away
no with us you will stay
for the rest of your days - Sit down
As we relive our lives in what we tell you
Let us relive our lives in what we tell you





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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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patrick jane

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Re: Looking at the C in an E.C.T. Hell
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2018, 11:18:34 am »
Where in the Old Testament does it talk about Hell and it being eternal?


Just for reference, Jon


40 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9R3TOwnYRc




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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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