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Forum > Christian Threads
Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
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guest55:
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.
For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible. This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths. Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means. Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.
1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.” To this statement we must simply ask . . . . . . Why? What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims? 2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.” . . . Can feelings be mistaken? 3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.” . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists. We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true. 4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.” . . . Can they be mistaken? What if one came from a Nazi background? 5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.” . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong? Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth. 6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.” . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time. Truth works overall. For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it. 7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.” . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?
But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.
Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.
Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.
* Jesus Was God Incarnate * Jesus Was Not divine but just a man We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible. We know the following points.
* The wages of sin is death * That death is eternal * That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
* Christ died to pay for our sins * Not only our sins but the whole world's sins * He rose again on the third day
First let's run the second truth statement through the test. Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine. This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death. It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.
This truth statement is not internally coherent.
Let's run the second statement through the test. . Jesus was God incarnate. God is infinite and has infinite life. This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do. Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over. This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.
This statement passes the truth test with flying colors. Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.
This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
patrick jane:
--- Quote from: Grace_Accepted on February 14, 2019, 11:16:39 pm ---When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.
For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible. This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths. Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means. Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.
1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.” To this statement we must simply ask . . . . . . Why? What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims? 2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.” . . . Can feelings be mistaken? 3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.” . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists. We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true. 4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.” . . . Can they be mistaken? What if one came from a Nazi background? 5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.” . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong? Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth. 6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.” . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time. Truth works overall. For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it. 7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.” . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?
But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.
Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.
Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.
* Jesus Was God Incarnate * Jesus Was Not divine but just a man We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible. We know the following points.
* The wages of sin is death * That death is eternal * That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
* Christ died to pay for our sins * Not only our sins but the whole world's sins * He rose again on the third day
First let's run the second truth statement through the test. Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine. This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death. It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.
This truth statement is not internally coherent.
Let's run the second statement through the test. . Jesus was God incarnate. God is infinite and has infinite life. This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do. Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over. This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.
This statement passes the truth test with flying colors. Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.
This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
--- End quote --- Great study approach. Back in the day my Grandma would write notes in her Bible with cross references, concordance and her interpretations. I still have some of her Bibles and she was really in the spirit all her life. She taught me about Revelation starting when I was 4 or 5. I do the things you listed above, most of them, but I have written only pages of verses and what they're about. I have filled many pages but I put them all to the side when they fill up and they are just in a pile somewhere.
So basically, I do the studies in my head as I read and absorb scripture. I could and should study and read more and I always plan to. My memory isn't as good anymore either so I stay in the scriptures online. Most of my study has been in Paul's epistles for the last 5 years. That makes the OT easier for me to understand. I love Jesus' words the most though.
guest8:
--- Quote from: patrick jane on February 15, 2019, 10:40:39 am --- --- Quote from: Grace_Accepted on February 14, 2019, 11:16:39 pm ---When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.
For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible. This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths. Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means. Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.
1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.” To this statement we must simply ask . . . . . . Why? What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims? 2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.” . . . Can feelings be mistaken? 3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.” . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists. We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true. 4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.” . . . Can they be mistaken? What if one came from a Nazi background? 5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.” . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong? Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth. 6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.” . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time. Truth works overall. For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it. 7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.” . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?
But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.
Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.
Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.
* Jesus Was God Incarnate * Jesus Was Not divine but just a man We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible. We know the following points.
* The wages of sin is death * That death is eternal * That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
* Christ died to pay for our sins * Not only our sins but the whole world's sins * He rose again on the third day
First let's run the second truth statement through the test. Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine. This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death. It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.
This truth statement is not internally coherent.
Let's run the second statement through the test. . Jesus was God incarnate. God is infinite and has infinite life. This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do. Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over. This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.
This statement passes the truth test with flying colors. Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.
This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
--- End quote --- Great study approach. Back in the day my Grandma would write notes in her Bible with cross references, concordance and her interpretations. I still have some of her Bibles and she was really in the spirit all her life. She taught me about Revelation starting when I was 4 or 5. I do the things you listed above, most of them, but I have written only pages of verses and what they're about. I have filled many pages but I put them all to the side when they fill up and they are just in a pile somewhere.
So basically, I do the studies in my head as I read and absorb scripture. I could and should study and read more and I always plan to. My memory isn't as good anymore either so I stay in the scriptures online. Most of my study has been in Paul's epistles for the last 5 years. That makes the OT easier for me to understand. I love Jesus' words the most though.
--- End quote ---
Your Grandmother knew how to enable complete call back when needed.
The Truth statements are ok for testing context but the best way is to let the Holy Spirit within you, teach you. LISTEN to HIM!
Blade
guest43:
--- Quote from: Grace_Accepted on February 14, 2019, 11:16:39 pm ---When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.
For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible. This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths. Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means. Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.
1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.” To this statement we must simply ask . . . . . . Why? What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims? 2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.” . . . Can feelings be mistaken? 3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.” . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists. We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true. 4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.” . . . Can they be mistaken? What if one came from a Nazi background? 5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.” . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong? Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth. 6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.” . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time. Truth works overall. For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it. 7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.” . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?
But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.
Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.
Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.
* Jesus Was God Incarnate * Jesus Was Not divine but just a man --- End quote ---
But my dear friend Grace_Accepted, Jesus was Not 'God incarnate' and there is just no way you can make that a rational Bible teaching. It is clear that it was not God, but Gods son who was "sent into the world", which is the basis of the whole NT writings, .. especially John.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. .. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
God, the Father of Word sent him, and it was the "Word that became flesh", not God.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
John 3:16 (NKJV) 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life
Can't get any more clearer than that
--- Quote from: Grace_Accepted ---We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible. We know the following points.
* The wages of sin is death * That death is eternal * That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
* Christ died to pay for our sins * Not only our sins but the whole world's sins * He rose again on the third day
First let's run the second truth statement through the test. Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine. --- End quote ---
The Word, not God. It was Gods son Word who was sent from Heaven, and Not Jesus. Once we allow these seemingly minute changes to take hold in our minds, it leads to one of the most critical errors in understanding God. Just as the Fiery Angel of the Lord that spoke to Moses was not God, nor Moses was God, the same way Gods son Word was Not God. In all cases God was "manifesting" Himself through these different beings.
Manifest verb 1. display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate. "Jesus manifested attributes of his Father God" synonyms: display, show, exhibit, demonstrate, betray, present, evince, reveal, indicate, make plain, express, declare
--- Quote --- This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death. It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck. --- End quote ---
1 pet3er 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, .. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
--- Quote ---This truth statement is not internally coherent.
Let's run the second statement through the test.
Jesus was God incarnate. God is infinite and has infinite life. This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do. Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over. This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.
This statement passes the truth test with flying colors. Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.
This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
--- End quote ---
If Infinite and Eternal could die, then He is NOT Infinite and Eternal. Only a created being could die, and the son Word was the "first of all Gods creations, this is why he is also referred to as "The First and the Last".
Yes my dear Christian friend, you are so close, but it does not go with what we read from the Bible, .. which is that "God sent His son Word (John 3:16) who became flesh (John 1:14) and died for us all. This has nothing to do with what God is able to do as far as raising His son from the dead, even the Apostles were given that authority. This has to do with one of the Adams paying off the sin of the other. Just as one Adam sinned and the whole world was now condemned, the same way one Adam remained sinless, and sacrificed for all mankind.
Jesus kept the whole law, this made him the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish. God would never keep a perfect man who kept all the commandments in death, so hell could not keep him, .. Satan had nothing on him.
But
because he took all our sins, God turned the other way and let him die. He died for OUR sins, took them to the grave with him, but he himself was faultless, so God, not breaking His commandments raised him. NOT because Jesus was God, but because he was found worthy. This is why if we confess that Jesus was the son of God, and believe that it was he alone who took our sins to the grave, we too shall be raised from death into everlasting life. This is Scriptural and true.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
But what happens to billions of Christians who make the son of God Word aka Jesus out to be some sun-god, or part of a conspiracy doctrine that turns God/Infinite into a mortal, and kill Him? Here is a Warning to us all:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the holy one, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
Jesus was not God, nor one of the Christian gods that make up the idea of God, not Infinite who can become finite mortal and die, but the son Word who became flesh, and took our sins to the grave, and because death cannot reign in a holy and just man, so God raised him, leaving all our sins in the grave, buried and forgotten. So this Trinity denies God our Infinite and Eternal Creator by making the mortal Jesus a god and anyone who does this is:
22 He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Arius
patrick jane:
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
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