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Author Topic: II Corinthians 4  (Read 664 times)

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Lori Bolinger

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II Corinthians 4
« on: June 14, 2021, 11:56:53 am »
#1
I've thought a lot about this passage since I studied it as part of another study...I'm wondering what all you you all see in it that helps us today as those of the world treat us with everything from lies and false witness to all-out persecution (as in beatings and murder)

II Corinthians 4:
7 Now we have this treasure in clay jars, so that this extraordinary power may be from God and not from us. 8 We are pressured in every way but not crushed; we are perplexed but not in despair; 9 we are persecuted but not abandoned; we are struck down but not destroyed. 10 We always carry the death of Jesus in our body, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who live are always given over to death because of Jesus, so that Jesusí life may also be revealed in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke, we also believe, and therefore speak. 14 We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. 15 Indeed, everything is for your benefit, so that grace, extended through more and more people, may cause thanksgiving to increase to Godís glory.
16 Therefore we do not give up. Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. 17 For our momentary light affliction[c] is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. 18 So we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Just for the record, I am looking mostly for more depth than just the "Sunday school" answers to this passage...especially in light of some of the persecution going on in countries that are close to our hearts not to mention the predicted coming persecution here. I quoted from HCSB because it is the most literal without being cumbersome.

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Mr E

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2021, 02:47:27 pm »
#1
I've thought a lot about this passage since I studied it as part of another study...I'm wondering what all you you all see in it that helps us today as those of the world treat us with everything from lies and false witness to all-out persecution (as in beatings and murder)

II Corinthians 4:
7 Now we have this treasure in clay jars, so that this extraordinary power may be from God and not from us. 8 We are pressured in every way but not crushed; we are perplexed but not in despair; 9 we are persecuted but not abandoned; we are struck down but not destroyed. 10 We always carry the death of Jesus in our body, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who live are always given over to death because of Jesus, so that Jesusí life may also be revealed in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke, we also believe, and therefore speak. 14 We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. 15 Indeed, everything is for your benefit, so that grace, extended through more and more people, may cause thanksgiving to increase to Godís glory.
16 Therefore we do not give up. Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. 17 For our momentary light affliction[c] is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. 18 So we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Just for the record, I am looking mostly for more depth than just the "Sunday school" answers to this passage...especially in light of some of the persecution going on in countries that are close to our hearts not to mention the predicted coming persecution here. I quoted from HCSB because it is the most literal without being cumbersome.

When I read it Lori, like you perhaps-- I wonder how folks can miss the meaning.  Yet they do.

Often, it's because they have a built-in bias of some kind, or because they parse and parcel a few verses rather than considering the whole of the passage, the book, the story -in other words, the context and in so doing they miss the meaning.

There is no doubt that 'the clay jars' written of, are us.  Our physical earthen bodies and the light that is within is the light of Christ that is not of us.  So why worry?  The outer jar, though it may be destroyed, broken, shattered or abandoned-- counts for nothing.  -And when that happens all that remains is that light (formerly hidden) that is within. 

Probably not going to hear that in Sunday School---- "Boys and Girls! Boys and Girls!  --Look look... listen listen....  Eyes up here on the flannelgraph.  Today we are going to tell the story of Gideon and how he sneak attacked the Midianites and scared them so bad that their army men just started killing each other and Gideon's men chased them and caught their leaders Oreb and Zeeb and they chopped their heads right off-- Praise Jesus!"

"Okay boys and girls.... everyone pick up your swords and everyone take also a trumpet.  I'm going to turn out all the lights in a minute so we can act out this scene from the Bible.   -Now light your torches and conceal them inside your clay jars and when I give the command-- SMASH your jar so that the light shines out, pick up your trumpet and blow it as loud as you can and if you see any Midianites come running- whack them with your swords!"


---'Okay, that WAS FUN!  --now gather round here on the carpet circle and everyone can have two animal crackers and a cup of juice.  Let's talk about the story... 

YOU are the clay jars.  Jesus is the torch light within you.  One day you are going to get smashed open and only the light will be left.

See ya next week when we are going to talk about temple prostitution.'
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2021, 07:16:41 am »
#1
I've thought a lot about this passage since I studied it as part of another study...I'm wondering what all you you all see in it that helps us today as those of the world treat us with everything from lies and false witness to all-out persecution (as in beatings and murder)

II Corinthians 4:
7 Now we have this treasure in clay jars, so that this extraordinary power may be from God and not from us. 8 We are pressured in every way but not crushed; we are perplexed but not in despair; 9 we are persecuted but not abandoned; we are struck down but not destroyed. 10 We always carry the death of Jesus in our body, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who live are always given over to death because of Jesus, so that Jesusí life may also be revealed in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke, we also believe, and therefore speak. 14 We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. 15 Indeed, everything is for your benefit, so that grace, extended through more and more people, may cause thanksgiving to increase to Godís glory.
16 Therefore we do not give up. Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. 17 For our momentary light affliction[c] is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. 18 So we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Just for the record, I am looking mostly for more depth than just the "Sunday school" answers to this passage...especially in light of some of the persecution going on in countries that are close to our hearts not to mention the predicted coming persecution here. I quoted from HCSB because it is the most literal without being cumbersome.

When I read it Lori, like you perhaps-- I wonder how folks can miss the meaning.  Yet they do.

Often, it's because they have a built-in bias of some kind, or because they parse and parcel a few verses rather than considering the whole of the passage, the book, the story -in other words, the context and in so doing they miss the meaning.

There is no doubt that 'the clay jars' written of, are us.  Our physical earthen bodies and the light that is within is the light of Christ that is not of us.  So why worry?  The outer jar, though it may be destroyed, broken, shattered or abandoned-- counts for nothing.  -And when that happens all that remains is that light (formerly hidden) that is within. 

Probably not going to hear that in Sunday School---- "Boys and Girls! Boys and Girls!  --Look look... listen listen....  Eyes up here on the flannelgraph.  Today we are going to tell the story of Gideon and how he sneak attacked the Midianites and scared them so bad that their army men just started killing each other and Gideon's men chased them and caught their leaders Oreb and Zeeb and they chopped their heads right off-- Praise Jesus!"

"Okay boys and girls.... everyone pick up your swords and everyone take also a trumpet.  I'm going to turn out all the lights in a minute so we can act out this scene from the Bible.   -Now light your torches and conceal them inside your clay jars and when I give the command-- SMASH your jar so that the light shines out, pick up your trumpet and blow it as loud as you can and if you see any Midianites come running- whack them with your swords!"


---'Okay, that WAS FUN!  --now gather round here on the carpet circle and everyone can have two animal crackers and a cup of juice.  Let's talk about the story... 

YOU are the clay jars.  Jesus is the torch light within you.  One day you are going to get smashed open and only the light will be left.

See ya next week when we are going to talk about temple prostitution.'
that was entertaining...lol

I have heard it taught my whole life that we have to be "cracked pots" for the light to shine out, which basically means broken as in a broken and contrite heart that is humbled and accepting of the work of Christ whether through persecution or other affliction or just a brokenness to the truth of our sins.

What I have been finding intriguing is the part that talks about being persecuted but not...what amazing power to be thrown in prison and just praise and sing and worship.  We all like to think that would but us but then we stub a toe and spend days complaining about how life isn't fair.  Or run out of money with a bill due and cry because we don't know what to do...maybe if we learned to rejoice and sing and worship God during the hard times we would discover a new strength that we have only heard about...just some thoughts.
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Mr E

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2021, 10:22:47 am »
One of the things I love to do is look at Paul's letters against the backdrop of history, not for any special kind of theological significance but for the enrichment of those stories.  Kind of like adding sound to silent movies, or color to what was once only black and white.  And I just like Paul for being authentic.  How can you not like a guy who calls skubala exactly what it is? (Phil 3:8 -and he didn't say "dung')

Paul hits the road... hops on a boat... hitchhikes to Europe (Macedonia).  He's doing what he thinks is best and teaching others to do the same, and along the way he faces all kinds of opposition which he understands better than most because he used to be one of the oppressors.  He easily forgives those who speak against him because he used to be just like they were, --until he wasn't anymore.  He was changed and he knows it wasn't because of any 'goodness' that was in him. It was because he was flooded by this Light that he later so often speaks of.  -And he knows-- it's what's inside that counts.
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Bladerunner

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2021, 08:35:14 pm »
One of the things I love to do is look at Paul's letters against the backdrop of history, not for any special kind of theological significance but for the enrichment of those stories.  Kind of like adding sound to silent movies, or color to what was once only black and white.  And I just like Paul for being authentic.  How can you not like a guy who calls skubala exactly what it is? (Phil 3:8 -and he didn't say "dung')

Paul hits the road... hops on a boat... hitchhikes to Europe (Macedonia).  He's doing what he thinks is best and teaching others to do the same, and along the way he faces all kinds of opposition which he understands better than most because he used to be one of the oppressors.  He easily forgives those who speak against him because he used to be just like they were, --until he wasn't anymore.  He was changed and he knows it wasn't because of any 'goodness' that was in him. It was because he was flooded by this Light that he later so often speaks of.  -And he knows-- it's what's inside that counts.

Have you taken a good look at the books he wrote. What 13 of them? How many epistles? What were the others? Were there any repeats?
Are any single or group parallel other singular or groups?

A bunch of questions for you my friend.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Mr E

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2021, 09:20:39 am »
One of the things I love to do is look at Paul's letters against the backdrop of history, not for any special kind of theological significance but for the enrichment of those stories.  Kind of like adding sound to silent movies, or color to what was once only black and white.  And I just like Paul for being authentic.  How can you not like a guy who calls skubala exactly what it is? (Phil 3:8 -and he didn't say "dung')

Paul hits the road... hops on a boat... hitchhikes to Europe (Macedonia).  He's doing what he thinks is best and teaching others to do the same, and along the way he faces all kinds of opposition which he understands better than most because he used to be one of the oppressors.  He easily forgives those who speak against him because he used to be just like they were, --until he wasn't anymore.  He was changed and he knows it wasn't because of any 'goodness' that was in him. It was because he was flooded by this Light that he later so often speaks of.  -And he knows-- it's what's inside that counts.


Have you taken a good look at the books he wrote. What 13 of them? How many epistles? What were the others? Were there any repeats?
Are any single or group parallel other singular or groups?

A bunch of questions for you my friend.

Blade

You have questions, we have answers.

https://youtu.be/H-9xIRe0VdA



You could say that much of what Paul wrote was building on, or expanding on things that Peter taught.  Re-Pete's.

You must have something specific in mind.  Yes, his writings are familiar to me.  It's of value to consider what he wrote as well as who he wrote it to...


patrick jane

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2021, 09:54:32 am »
I will say this until I die: Paul is a Chosen Vessel, like other men God chose to reveal Himself to. Paul received BY REVELATION, progressive revelation, NEW information never before known or revealed to God's servants. Peter could barely understand.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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Mr E

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2021, 01:13:17 pm »
I will say this until I die: Paul is a Chosen Vessel, like other men God chose to reveal Himself to. Paul received BY REVELATION, progressive revelation, NEW information never before known or revealed to God's servants. Peter could barely understand.

Peter could barely understand.....?  Understand what? English? Greek?  Hebrew?  Paul?  Jesus?

I think Peter did just fine, as did Paul.  Now Mary..... what ever happened to Mary?  The answer to that question my friend.....

https://youtu.be/Ld6fAO4idaI

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Lori Bolinger

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2021, 04:03:01 pm »
One of the things I love to do is look at Paul's letters against the backdrop of history, not for any special kind of theological significance but for the enrichment of those stories.  Kind of like adding sound to silent movies, or color to what was once only black and white.  And I just like Paul for being authentic.  How can you not like a guy who calls skubala exactly what it is? (Phil 3:8 -and he didn't say "dung')

Paul hits the road... hops on a boat... hitchhikes to Europe (Macedonia).  He's doing what he thinks is best and teaching others to do the same, and along the way he faces all kinds of opposition which he understands better than most because he used to be one of the oppressors.  He easily forgives those who speak against him because he used to be just like they were, --until he wasn't anymore.  He was changed and he knows it wasn't because of any 'goodness' that was in him. It was because he was flooded by this Light that he later so often speaks of.  -And he knows-- it's what's inside that counts.


Have you taken a good look at the books he wrote. What 13 of them? How many epistles? What were the others? Were there any repeats?
Are any single or group parallel other singular or groups?

A bunch of questions for you my friend.

Blade

You have questions, we have answers.

https://youtu.be/H-9xIRe0VdA



You could say that much of what Paul wrote was building on, or expanding on things that Peter taught.  Re-Pete's.

You must have something specific in mind.  Yes, his writings are familiar to me.  It's of value to consider what he wrote as well as who he wrote it to...
This is a good reason to listen to women who actually study the word of God rather than as some do, telling them to shut up or that they can't teach a man anything...just saying.

Mr E

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2021, 09:38:08 am »
Ha ha...

The gentler breed. Sometimes I wonder if men would bother talking at all if it werenít for women making us. We could get along fine communicating with grunts and nods, chuckles, winks and grimacing.

Iím pretty sure that Tower of Babel incident was precipitated by someoneís decision to put a lady in charge of communications and confusion was the result. Just kidding!  -but in truth it all did likely factor into Noah getting a boat.

Did you know a man and his buddies can have the best day fishing together without exchanging a word?  Itís true.

Lori Bolinger

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2021, 10:56:25 am »
Ha ha...

The gentler breed. Sometimes I wonder if men would bother talking at all if it werenít for women making us. We could get along fine communicating with grunts and nods, chuckles, winks and grimacing.

Iím pretty sure that Tower of Babel incident was precipitated by someoneís decision to put a lady in charge of communications and confusion was the result. Just kidding!  -but in truth it all did likely factor into Noah getting a boat.

Did you know a man and his buddies can have the best day fishing together without exchanging a word?  Itís true.
Some time ago my husband challenged me to watch after church to see which gender talked the most...most wives were still waiting on their husbands to get done talking so they could leave.

In fact, if you haven't had the pleasure of trying to get away from an old farmer who wants to chat you should try it...lol HE will talk your ear off whether you want him to or not.

Mr E

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2021, 12:41:06 pm »
Opinions vary (as does mileage) but my own dear Dad was one of those old farmers and while he could spin a yarn better than most heíd also be quick to note that an old farmer designed the tractoró and he made it single-seated. They remain so to this day.
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Bladerunner

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Re: II Corinthians 4
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2021, 10:39:45 pm »
Opinions vary (as does mileage) but my own dear Dad was one of those old farmers and while he could spin a yarn better than most heíd also be quick to note that an old farmer designed the tractoró and he made it single-seated. They remain so to this day.

there is a reason for that... The seat of a tractor provides some of the most quit solitude there is...No one to talk to, no one to listen to and a great place to talk to GOD! While in the hay field will ride it around 10-12 per day.  Lots of solitude.  YEah!

Blade

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

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