+- +-

+- User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 122
Latest: Boaz
New This Month: 2
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 19942
Total Topics: 938
Most Online Today: 439
Most Online Ever: 771
(July 30, 2019, 01:13:39 am)
Users Online
Members: 1
Guests: 440
Total: 441

Author Topic: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?  (Read 1606 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Lori Bolinger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 1
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2020, 10:43:23 am »
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this article http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm

I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I think about it beyond interesting.  I'm still studying and praying over what i have found.

Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’ day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were representations of flying creatures which did exist on this planet, at some time.)

We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures (pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip – compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5 metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)

Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel 22:11 and Psalms 18:10.

The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have looked like.

A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.) What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings. Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as “front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like grip-organs.

Lori Bolinger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 1
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2020, 10:46:01 am »
In relation to the symbolism of the Cherubim I found Ezekiel 10 especially interesting...in my visual mind I read this and see the cherubim kind of like (different but kind of like) those who carry the liter of a King or Queen through the streets.  Attendants that raise the real King of kings high so that His glory can be seen.  What a beautiful picture of the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords. 
Winner Winner x 1 View List

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2165
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2020, 07:10:36 pm »
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this article http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm

I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I think about it beyond interesting.  I'm still studying and praying over what i have found.

Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’ day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were representations of flying creatures which did exist on this planet, at some time.)

We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures (pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip – compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5 metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)

Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel 22:11 and Psalms 18:10.

The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have looked like.

A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.) What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings. Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as “front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like grip-organs.

interesting you comparing Satan with a winged dinosaur.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Mr E

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2020, 10:26:33 pm »
Follow some logic...  an exercise.

Angels (including cherubim) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

If you are inclined to say "both"  -- resist the temptation.

If you can't resist the temptation and insist on saying that angels are both spiritual and physical.... then:

Humans (including you and me) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

Now, likely EVERYONE will say we are both spiritual and physical.

.....and if you did, then good--- you recognize duality. 

So let's circle back to the original proposal concerning angels--- does it affect how you look at angels?

As humans-- what is our spiritual nature?  We are flesh and spirit....

Where does the spirit part come from? 

As angels--- they are spirit and flesh...

Where does the flesh part come from?
Like Like x 1 View List

Lori Bolinger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 1
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2020, 07:19:58 am »
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this article http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm

I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I think about it beyond interesting.  I'm still studying and praying over what i have found.

Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’ day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were representations of flying creatures which did exist on this planet, at some time.)

We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures (pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip – compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5 metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)

Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel 22:11 and Psalms 18:10.

The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have looked like.

A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.) What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings. Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as “front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like grip-organs.

interesting you comparing Satan with a winged dinosaur.

Blade
wait, what?  So now cherubim are satan?  How?  I don't get it...a whole bunch of satan's (especially since there is only one satan) holding up the throne of sapphire and carrying along God's voice with their wings, not to mention calling God holy....how do you even make that work in your mind?
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Lori Bolinger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 1
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2020, 07:23:58 am »
Follow some logic...  an exercise.

Angels (including cherubim) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

If you are inclined to say "both"  -- resist the temptation.

If you can't resist the temptation and insist on saying that angels are both spiritual and physical.... then:

Humans (including you and me) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

Now, likely EVERYONE will say we are both spiritual and physical.

.....and if you did, then good--- you recognize duality. 

So let's circle back to the original proposal concerning angels--- does it affect how you look at angels?

As humans-- what is our spiritual nature?  We are flesh and spirit....

Where does the spirit part come from? 

As angels--- they are spirit and flesh...

Where does the flesh part come from?
Apparently you and I are talking about two different "physical and spiritual" beings since I never once said that I believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that they are real creatures.  i see nothing in scripture to suggest that they are not real living beings.  Are they flesh, obviously not since that goes against what the scripture says about them.  Are they real living beings?  Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths....truths some seem to be missing.
Like Like x 1 View List

Mr E

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2020, 10:46:20 am »
Lori--you are all over the map on this.  The one thing you haven't done is say what you actually think.  A couple of posts back you were entertaining the idea that cherub bones had been found, that looked like pteredactyls or some such nonsense.  You've insisted, or certainly implied that you believe that cherubim were among the people to the extent that people were familiar with them because they interacted, and that is why no description or design was needed for the gold-covered carvings on the ark of the covenant.  This, you contend without ever saying what you believe regarding their nature, so I ask-- spiritual beings, or physical beings?

It's a simple question and I didn't even limit you to picking one or the other.

You'll have to explain this>>> "I never once said that I believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that they are real creatures."

What do you mean by 'not flesh', rather 'physical in nature meaning real creatures' ?

That's what flesh means... it means physical creatures.

And "real living beings" applies to both living physical beings as well as living spiritual beings.

If I understand you then-- you believe that they are NOT flesh (not physical) and that they are real living (spiritual) beings.  Do I have you correctly?  You could have provided that by marking "B" on my original question concerning the nature of angels.

Let's skip the human nature question for a moment and hit on the last bit...

IF as you say, angels are only spiritual beings, then there is no 'flesh part' and they are created by God as spirit only, then as messengers from God to mankind they travel in spirit, and appear only in spirit. 

The image of them, that Moses had made would have had to have been either given to him as design, or it was based on his own idea of what they looked like-- which was either given to him, or which he had seen himself in spirit (that is in such as a vision of these spiritual beings)

But then you completely contradict yourself by saying>>>> "Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths."


You say--- "are they flesh?  -obviously not, since that goes against what scripture says about them"

Then you say--- "Are they real living beings?  Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths..."


So what distinction is it that you are making between the following?  Please define:

A. Flesh
B. Physical beings
C. Living beings
D. Spiritual beings

This will help us get on the same page.  Also if you could reference the scriptures you say that determine they are not flesh, and also the ones that say they are physical beings.


patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11945
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 41
    • Theology Forums
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2020, 11:22:03 am »
Angels can manifest physically and nephilim are physical beings who have evil spirits I believe, who knows?
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
Like Like x 1 View List

Lori Bolinger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 1
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2020, 11:42:25 am »
Lori--you are all over the map on this.  The one thing you haven't done is say what you actually think.
oiy vey....I have been clear about what I believe....you must not be reading it very well.
Quote
  A couple of posts back you were entertaining the idea that cherub bones had been found, that looked like pteredactyls or some such nonsense.
lol...actually what I said was that I found the article interesting and didn't know what to make of their assertions....
Quote
  You've insisted, or certainly implied that you believe that cherubim were among the people to the extent that people were familiar with them because they interacted, and that is why no description or design was needed for the gold-covered carvings on the ark of the covenant.
yes, I believe that the generation of Moses must have seen cherubim...it would explain how they all knew what cherubim looked like as well as explaining why a detailed description was not given 

The discussion (keeping context is important to reading comprehension) was whether they were real beings or symbolic only...to which I replied that they were physical beings in that they exist literally but that they are also there to teach us something spiritual...not sure why you can't figure that out.
Quote

It's a simple question and I didn't even limit you to picking one or the other.

You'll have to explain this>>> "I never once said that I believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that they are real creatures."

What do you mean by 'not flesh', rather 'physical in nature meaning real creatures' ?
not sure how I can explain it any clearer....I do Not believe that cherubim as flesh and blood like man is, but I do believe they are literal beings...a good example comes straight out of scripture and the resurrected Christ...He was NoT flesh and blood in the resurrected body but He was a being none the less.  Same principle applies to what I am and have been saying to you this whole time....why can't you understand it?
Quote


That's what flesh means... it means physical creatures.

And "real living beings" applies to both living physical beings as well as living spiritual beings.

If I understand you then-- you believe that they are NOT flesh (not physical) and that they are real living (spiritual) beings.  Do I have you correctly?  You could have provided that by marking "B" on my original question concerning the nature of angels.
no you don't have me right but you didn't even try to respond to my clarification so that would be a good reason why you don't understand.
Quote


Let's skip the human nature question for a moment and hit on the last bit...

IF as you say, angels are only spiritual beings, then there is no 'flesh part' and they are created by God as spirit only, then as messengers from God to mankind they travel in spirit, and appear only in spirit. 
so instead of talking about cherubim, you now want to change the discussion to what a spirit looks like....this is largely the problem, you keep changing the topic without warning.

I will say the same thing I told someone else long ago.  WE do NOT know what a spirit "looks" like but we do know that in scripture, physical descriptions are given for that which is spirit, for example, God is spirit and yet there are descriptions of Him and even His clothes...does that mean that spirit looks like air?  probably not but it also doesn't tell us what spirit looks like.
Quote


The image of them, that Moses had made would have had to have been either given to him as design, or it was based on his own idea of what they looked like-- which was either given to him, or which he had seen himself in spirit (that is in such as a vision of these spiritual beings)

But then you completely contradict yourself by saying>>>> "Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths."
if you don't think we can learn anything from the symbollism of the cherubim I don't know what to tell you, that is what parables do and they are all over scripture.
Quote


You say--- "are they flesh?  -obviously not, since that goes against what scripture says about them"

Then you say--- "Are they real living beings?  Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths..."


So what distinction is it that you are making between the following?  Please define:

A. Flesh
B. Physical beings
C. Living beings
D. Spiritual beings

This will help us get on the same page.  Also if you could reference the scriptures you say that determine they are not flesh, and also the ones that say they are physical beings.
Like i said, cherubim are not flesh and blood like man is but they are literal beings with spiritual purpose...not sure how I can be any clearer.

patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11945
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 41
    • Theology Forums
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11945
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 41
    • Theology Forums
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11945
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 41
    • Theology Forums

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/june-web-only/michael-heiser-angels-demons-unseen-realm.html







The Truth About Angels and Demons Is Staring Us in the Face









Michael Heiser’s books cut through the myths and legends surrounding these supernatural beings.


M. Night Shyamalan’s film The Sixth Sense catapulted the director to overnight stardom. Most people who saw the film will never forget the shock they felt when the trick ending was revealed and they were forced to reassess the meaning of each and every scene they had just witnessed. In the flash of an eye, it became a very different movie, far richer and far stranger than they had first imagined.

If I may leap from the secular to the sacred, from pop culture to inspired Scripture, I suppose the two travelers on the road to Emmaus must have felt the same way when Jesus opened up the Old Testament to them (Luke 24:27). So, they must have thought to themselves, that’s what Moses really meant—and David and Isaiah and Ezekiel and Daniel! How could we have missed it when the truth was staring us in the face all these years?

It is as if the viewers of the film and the travelers to Emmaus were trying to put together a thousand-piece puzzle without having been shown a picture of what the finished puzzle looks like. Only when the director of the film, or the gospel, revealed that picture were they able to use it as a key for assembling the pieces into a coherent image and narrative. I felt something of that sense of revelation when I happened upon Michael Heiser’s book The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, first published in 2015.

Heiser, who holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic languages and is the executive director of the School of Theology at Celebration Church in Jacksonville, Florida, has devoted his career to expanding the horizons of Bible-believing Christians who have never known what to make of Scripture’s frequent references to “gods” and “sons of God.” Using Psalm 82 as his starting point, Heiser argues that God chose to work through a divine council of supernatural beings whom he created and over whom he holds full sovereignty. He intended for his council to also include human representatives who would meet at Eden, itself a nexus point between heaven and earth.

But man, tempted by a rebellious member of the council, sinned and lost Eden. Things devolved further when a series of supernatural beings assumed bodies and mated with human women to produce a race of giants, the Nephilim (Gen. 6:1–4). The evil of this race furthered the wickedness of men and led to the Flood, but even that event did not put an end to human and divine wickedness. The campaign to build the Tower of Babel showed that evil and rebellion were still rampant among men and gods alike.

As a result of that rebellion, God portioned the land and turned over those portions to the control of supernatural members of his council (Deut. 32:8–9), leaving Israel for himself as a remaining plot of holy land to be inhabited by the descendants of Abraham, whom he called for that purpose. But the supernatural guardians of those portions turned, one by one, to evil, causing God to judge and curse them, as recorded in Psalm 82. Worse yet, the descendants of Abraham turned to evil and began to worship the rebellious gods of the other nations, causing God to exile them to Babylon, the very land where the Tower of Babel had been built.

Angelic Ministry
Since the publication of The Unseen Realm, Heiser has continued to flesh out the supernatural worldview of the Bible with two recent books on the nature, origin, and functions of angels and demons. Cutting through the myths and legends that have surrounded these divine beings, Heiser allows us to see them through the eyes of the writers of the Old and New Testament as well as the Jewish and Greek writers who lived in the intertestamental period.

Although Heiser presents his case and offers his conclusions in an accessible manner, his points are backed up by a mountain of textual, historical, anthropological, and linguistic research. Indeed, one of Heiser’s great strengths is taking findings from esoteric, highly academic papers and helping ordinary, non-specialist readers understand their relevance for interpreting the Bible and seeing the overall shape of God’s work in human history.

In his 2018 book Angels: What the Bible Really Says About God’s Heavenly Host, Heiser explains that message-bearing (what the word angel means in Greek) marks only one of the many functions performed by the supernatural, non-physical beings that God created. Angels also act as ministers of God’s will, watchers who are ever vigilant, soldiers in God’s heavenly host (or army), interpreters to men of God’s messages, protectors of God’s holiness, executors of God’s divine judgment, and members of God’s council who participate in and bear witness to God’s sovereign decisions and decrees.

Heiser presents a dynamic picture of God holding session with his divine council, but he also lays down biblical limits for angelic authority and advice. One of the best examples in Scripture of God convening his council is 1 Kings 22:19–23, when he asks how the wicked king Ahab might be defeated. After performing a close analysis on the passage, Heiser concludes that the “text presents us with a clear instance where God has sovereignly decided to act but allows his lesser, intelligent servants to participate in how his decision is carried out. God wasn’t searching for ideas, as though he couldn’t conceive of a plan. He allowed those who serve him the latitude to propose options.”

In his overview of the study of angels between the period of Exile and the ministry of Christ, Heiser marshals his prodigious research to dispel two popular myths. First, he demonstrates that Second Temple Jewish writers, including the translators of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) and the Qumran community that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, did not eliminate the language of angels as sons of god out of a fear of promoting polytheism. Their writing shows quite the opposite: a clear understanding that Yahweh is the only God but that he is surrounded by a divine council of supernatural beings who are often called gods. Second, he shows that the Dead Sea Scrolls do not embody a dualistic vision of good and evil as equal and opposite forces, but of angelic warfare between beings created by the omnipotent and always-benevolent Yahweh.

Whereas the Old Testament speaks of the angel of the Lord carrying out the judgment of God, the New Testament, written after God became man, no longer mentions the Angel of the Lord—because judgment has been “entrusted” to Christ (John 5:22). Angels are described as exacting God’s vengeance in the apocalyptic book of Revelation, but in the rest of the New Testament, they are usually seen as ministering to believers.

Some have argued that Christ’s death on the cross redeemed fallen angels as well as fallen human beings, Heiser refutes this theory, making it clear that “the sacrifice of Jesus does not help angels. It helps believers—the children of Abraham by faith.”

Demonic Rebellion
In his most recent book, Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness, Heiser takes up the story of those fallen angels whom even the death of Christ could not redeem. The book dispels the myth, popularized in John Milton’s classic poem Paradise Lost, of a single rebellion against God led by Satan before the world was created, a myth that has little actual scriptural support. Instead, Heiser defines demons, or evil spirits, as “members of God’s heavenly host who have chosen to rebel against his will.” Rather than taking place once, as it does in Paradise Lost, this rebellion (as noted earlier in this review) took different forms at different times: the serpent in Eden, the sons of God who slept with the daughters of men, and the disobedient sons of god Yahweh put in charge of the nations after the Tower of Babel.

Still, despite their rebellion, the evil spirits continued to be spirits living in a spiritual realm. As Heiser observes, “Their rebellion did not mean they were no longer part of that world or that they became something other than what they were. They are still spiritual beings. Rather, rebellion affected (and still characterizes) their disposition toward, and relationship to, Yahweh.” As for the demons described in the Old Testament, Heiser explains that some are “associated with the realm of the dead and its inhabitants,” some are linked to specific geographical locations opposed to God’s rule, and some are “preternatural creatures associated with idolatry and unholy ground.”

Regarding the third kind, Heiser notes that, while in theory any ground “not occupied by the presence of God” could be considered unholy, all places outside Jerusalem were not therefore places of spiritual danger. Nevertheless, Heiser writes, “forbidding, uninhabitable places in lands associated with other gods were unholy in the sense of sinister and evil. This was especially true of the desert wilderness, whether literal or used metaphorically to describe places ravaged by divine judgment.” It was into that wilderness that the scapegoat was sent on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16), a wilderness quite literally viewed as a locus of “a cosmic struggle involving the spiritual world.” Many modern readers, even if they believe in biblical inerrancy, will find these themes unsettling, but they are attested to in the Old Testament, carried forward into the Second Temple period after Israel’s exile, and glimpsed in the exorcisms performed by Jesus in the New Testament.

What Heiser has to say about Satan will be familiar to many, but perhaps not his argument that the demons who seek to tempt, subvert, and possess human beings were believed to have their origin in the hybrid Nephilim that were born to the sons of god and daughters of men. When those Nephilim died, Heiser claims, their disembodied spirits became demons. Another unfamiliar theme concerns the origin of the cosmic, political-territorial spiritual warfare we discover in the Bible. Heiser says it began not in a primeval rebellion by Satan and his minions, but instead when “the sons of god [to whom God had apportioned the nations] transgressed Yahweh’s desire for earthly order and just rule of his human imagers, sowing chaos in the nations.”

But we need not fear, Heiser assures us; after Christ defeated the power of Satan, he opened the way to a reclamation of the demon-controlled nations. This reclamation took place at Pentecost (Acts 2), when the gospel was carried to all those lands previously ruled by the rebellious sons of god. Good Friday, Easter, and Pentecost together healed the division begun by Babel, making it possible for the Gentiles to free themselves from false gods and embrace Jesus as Lord.

Breaking Down the Darkness
Though many readers might trip over the technical aspects of Angels and Demons, with their lengthy charts and heavy emphasis on the parsing of Hebrew and Greek terms, Heiser keeps things moving and skillfully sums up his main points. I do wish, however, that he had been more sympathetic to modern spiritual-warfare advocates who share Heiser’s concept of cosmic strife that includes a strong territorial element. Though I agree with Heiser that the fallen sons of god were disinherited by the Cross, the Resurrection, and the spreading of the gospel, it’s hard to deny that certain areas of the globe remain immersed in spiritual darkness.

Spiritual-warfare advocates have located just such an area in a rectangle that stretches from the 10th to the 40th latitude north of the equator. This “10/40 window,” as missions strategists sometimes call it, encompasses North Africa, the Middle East, China, Pakistan, and India. Given that the vast majority of unreached people groups live in this window and that persecution of the church is strongest there, it does not seem unreasonable to suggest that a territorial reign of evil (or stronghold) exists in that area of the globe, and that intense prayer on the part of believers may help break down demonic communication.

I believe Heiser’s books can inspire that needed movement of prayer just as they have illuminated the full meaning and extent of spiritual warfare in the pages of God’s Word.




Louis Markos is professor in English and scholar in residence at Houston Baptist University and holds the Robert H. Ray Chair in Humanities. His books include Heaven and Hell: Visions of the Afterlife in the Western Poetic Tradition (Cascade Books).
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11945
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 41
    • Theology Forums
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

 

+-Recent Topics

Why Can't Women Preach, Teach, or Lead in the Church?? by Bladerunner
Today at 10:10:39 pm

Ministry On Video by Lion Of Judah by patrick jane
Today at 01:37:03 pm

Your Favorite Music, Images and Memes by patrick jane
Today at 12:56:43 pm

Tiny Houses, Affordable Living and More by patrick jane
Today at 12:19:08 pm

Conspiracy - NWO, NASA and More by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 11:02:51 pm

Trump Historic Tweets - The Best President In American History by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 10:45:59 pm

Politics Today by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 10:45:43 pm

Re: Trump by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 10:45:12 pm

Re: Politics Today by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 10:45:00 pm

CITIZEN MAN on YOUTUBE by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 09:19:46 pm

End Times - Tracking The Signs by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 07:48:36 pm

THE LORD CHOSE ISRAEL by Bladerunner
November 22, 2020, 07:41:20 pm

Cultural Marxism and the Decline of the West - ROBERT SEPEHR by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 12:02:08 pm

Steven Crowder - Conservative Commentary by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 12:01:16 pm

Project Veritas and More - EXPOSED by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 12:01:00 pm

2020 Election Took Place Under Trump-Declared “National Emergency” ELECTION DAY TRAP by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 11:57:22 am

Creepy Joe Biden by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 11:56:38 am

Democrats Try To "FIX" The 2020 Election - Fake Ballots by patrick jane
November 22, 2020, 11:56:18 am