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Author Topic: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?  (Read 1541 times)

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Mr E

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2020, 09:34:28 am »
You are investigating a mystery that exists only because you insist it does.

Even if you've never been to a water park-  if I went to one and then described to you in detail what I had experienced you could gain enough understanding of water parks yourself to know what they are like.  And then if you ever had the chance to see one for yourself-- you'd immediately know it when you saw it.... ahhhh..... a water park....

But you are familiar with water parks because you've already seen them, or been to them, or heard about them already, right?

How about if I tell about a cave of wonders I explored in Carlsbad and the things I saw there, or the Joshua trees and strange landscape near where I had a house in the desert?  If I tell you about the things I saw in Peru, or in Rome--- some of these things you've never heard about and maybe you have never seen, but if I were to describe them to you and if you were willing to believe the words I say to you, then you could understand and 'get a picture' at least of what I'm describing.

The cherubim on the ark those creatures depict something.  They are models or copies of something.  They are an artists' rendering of something... but what is that something.  Ezekiel's vision is often referred to the chariot of fire-- or the chariot of God.  What these things we loosely call cherubim do is what we would associate with any winged thing.  They fly.  They swiftly move from one place to another.  They hover. They transport.  They carry.

Of the ark itself it is written that He stands atop the cherub wings-- that it is as the place He rests his feet... this isn't literal.  It speaks of a spiritual concept that being when the Spirit of God (which is His Word) is manifest on Earth, it is carried, transported, delivered by such as this chariot.  Carried on the wings of cherubim. 

I don't expect you to accept it because you are entrenched in your own ideas, like so many others... but there it is, and it is there-- if you take the time to read it just as it is written through out scripture by David, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, and certainly Enoch.
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Bladerunner

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2020, 03:15:24 pm »
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in order for there to be no debate over it.  Look how much debate there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they know which version or vision to use?  Did the people of that day see cherubim?  did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he was an artist?  was it a miracle that God just came down and gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers alike?  How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the gold?

we will only really know when we get to Heaven. All questions will have the answers.
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2020, 07:28:59 am »
You are investigating a mystery that exists only because you insist it does.

Even if you've never been to a water park-  if I went to one and then described to you in detail what I had experienced you could gain enough understanding of water parks yourself to know what they are like.  And then if you ever had the chance to see one for yourself-- you'd immediately know it when you saw it.... ahhhh..... a water park....

But you are familiar with water parks because you've already seen them, or been to them, or heard about them already, right?

How about if I tell about a cave of wonders I explored in Carlsbad and the things I saw there, or the Joshua trees and strange landscape near where I had a house in the desert?  If I tell you about the things I saw in Peru, or in Rome--- some of these things you've never heard about and maybe you have never seen, but if I were to describe them to you and if you were willing to believe the words I say to you, then you could understand and 'get a picture' at least of what I'm describing.

The cherubim on the ark those creatures depict something.  They are models or copies of something.  They are an artists' rendering of something... but what is that something.  Ezekiel's vision is often referred to the chariot of fire-- or the chariot of God.  What these things we loosely call cherubim do is what we would associate with any winged thing.  They fly.  They swiftly move from one place to another.  They hover. They transport.  They carry.

Of the ark itself it is written that He stands atop the cherub wings-- that it is as the place He rests his feet... this isn't literal.  It speaks of a spiritual concept that being when the Spirit of God (which is His Word) is manifest on Earth, it is carried, transported, delivered by such as this chariot.  Carried on the wings of cherubim. 

I don't expect you to accept it because you are entrenched in your own ideas, like so many others... but there it is, and it is there-- if you take the time to read it just as it is written through out scripture by David, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, and certainly Enoch.
Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange, I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.  2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own way.  Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2020, 07:29:46 am »
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in order for there to be no debate over it.  Look how much debate there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they know which version or vision to use?  Did the people of that day see cherubim?  did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he was an artist?  was it a miracle that God just came down and gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers alike?  How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the gold?

we will only really know when we get to Heaven. All questions will have the answers.
true enough but an interesting topic nonetheless
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Mr E

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2020, 10:31:10 am »

Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange, I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.  2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own way.  Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
[/quote]

No.

What you state is not what I believe.  Unless I say it as you state it, don't state that I said it.  Deal?

If you want to quote what I say, by all means- quote it.  But don't use your own words and ideas and then attribute to me, and I will do exactly the same for you.

Yes, the tabernacle Moses built was a real tent and it was made exactly to the specs that Moses was given and told to make it, just as the ark was made in exactly the manner that it was intended.  These were physical things made in the likeness of spiritual things.  You say- literal, and symbolic... yes- I prefer to say literal and conceptual. The difference is relatively subtle.  I'll give you an example-

If I present to you an image-- it can remind you of something else in that it is 'symbolic' of that something else, but the conceptual meaning can be much broader and deeper than the symbolism alone hearkens to.

Here's an image--- symbolically- what?







Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2020, 10:53:43 am »

Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange, I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.  2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own way.  Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that angels were still revealing themselves as necessary

No.

What you state is not what I believe.  Unless I say it as you state it, don't state that I said it.  Deal?

If you want to quote what I say, by all means- quote it.  But don't use your own words and ideas and then attribute to me, and I will do exactly the same for you.

Yes, the tabernacle Moses built was a real tent and it was made exactly to the specs that Moses was given and told to make it, just as the ark was made in exactly the manner that it was intended.  These were physical things made in the likeness of spiritual things.  You say- literal, and symbolic... yes- I prefer to say literal and conceptual. The difference is relatively subtle.  I'll give you an example-

If I present to you an image-- it can remind you of something else in that it is 'symbolic' of that something else, but the conceptual meaning can be much broader and deeper than the symbolism alone hearkens to.

Here's an image--- symbolically- what?



[/quote]I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.

Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer scriptures understanding.

So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim looked like.

One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes  it hard to believe what scripture says.  As I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim could have been real.  That being said, I believe that many things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often times both.

Mr E

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2020, 11:27:33 am »


I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.

Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer scriptures understanding.

So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim looked like.

One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes  it hard to believe what scripture says.  As I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim could have been real.  That being said, I believe that many things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often times both.
[/quote]

I bolded what you say you believe above--

Yes, but not 'sometimes'  --- always.  There is always a duality of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we were made.

The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.

The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on.  To a person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His presence.  They don't recognize the greater concept, which expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical expression of where He conceptually places His feet.  It's a much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.

As for literal?  Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.  In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more again, than a symbol-- of you.
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2020, 06:05:06 am »
I bolded what you say you believe above--

Yes, but not 'sometimes'  --- always.  There is always a duality of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we were made.[/quote] I have to disagree here....the parables for example do NOT have a literal understanding just a spiritual one.
Quote


The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.

The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on.  To a person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His presence.  They don't recognize the greater concept, which expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical expression of where He conceptually places His feet.  It's a much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.
I have a problem accepting what I THINK YOU ARE SAYING HERE in that God gave specific instructions and told Moses that those instructions were to be followed exactly.  Yet there is no detailed description of the cherubim not to mention that they were not only to make three dimensional cherubim on the ark but two dimensional woven cherubim as well.  If there was not detail of what they looked like, then just putting wings on the curtains and on the ark would not seem like enough to claim following the instructions exactly.
Quote

As for literal?  Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.  In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more again, than a symbol-- of you.
of course no "building" can contain the Living God but that isn't the discussion which might be why I confused your previous post where you claimed by posting that you were talking about the OP question but no apparently you wanted to change the topic.

Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2020, 06:31:10 am »


I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.

Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer scriptures understanding.

So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim looked like.

One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes  it hard to believe what scripture says.  As I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim could have been real.  That being said, I believe that many things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often times both.

I bolded what you say you believe above--

Yes, but not 'sometimes'  --- always.  There is always a duality of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we were made.

The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.

The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on.  To a person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His presence.  They don't recognize the greater concept, which expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical expression of where He conceptually places His feet.  It's a much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.

As for literal?  Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.  In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more again, than a symbol-- of you.
[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Mr E

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2020, 10:39:25 am »


[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
[/quote]

The quote feature in your post went awry, but in response to the comment above-- yes, this is true however the way you might think of it has this conceptual duality that I harp on about...

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....

The testimony-- which came to Moses and was written down on two stone tablets was the Word of God-- which is spirit, not physical.  The tablets of stone were physical of course, but just representative of the Word (testimony) and therein the presence of God- with - us  --   This is the same way that the Word came to us not on tablets of stone, but in the flesh-- in the body of Jesus -- the testimony once again delivered to men via the Spirit of God.

Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2020, 10:59:09 am »


btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
[/quote]

The quote feature in your post went awry, but in response to the comment above-- yes, this is true however the way you might think of it has this conceptual duality that I harp on about...

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....

The testimony-- which came to Moses and was written down on two stone tablets was the Word of God-- which is spirit, not physical.  The tablets of stone were physical of course, but just representative of the Word (testimony) and therein the presence of God- with - us  --   This is the same way that the Word came to us not on tablets of stone, but in the flesh-- in the body of Jesus -- the testimony once again delivered to men via the Spirit of God.
[/quote]if you do NOT see the difference between an image and a text, i don't know how to help you.  The question is not about whether or not they were given instructions nor if the cherubim were real figures, or if they had another meaning, or any number of other things I could glean from your texts that you want to change the topic to...the question is how they knew what cherubim looked like given that God did not give detail descriptions of the cherubim.

Mr E

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2020, 03:25:09 pm »
Okay Lori--

It's obvious that you don't want a discussion or any particular insight that one could offer, rather you are seeking someone to affirm your own ideas.  Good luck in your search for affirmation.

I've explained half a dozen times that Moses would know what he was looking at because he saw with his own eyes (vision) in spirit what a cherub looked like and he interacted with them (in spirit).  How he communicated what they looked like to another-- to a sculptor, or carver (who we are told were also inspired by God to do the work)...... who cares?  Only you it seems, because you want someone to tell you exactly what you want to hear?

And David, and then Solomon worked with what they already had... the ark that Moses had made.

Carry on.... sans moi
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2020, 06:56:37 am »
Interesting take on who I am and what I believe since I already adjusted my thoughts and opinions on what others have contributed...not sure how changing my mind based on what others have said is me wanting affirmation but okay, it is what it is....

Also, I already told you that it is kind of important when someone says that the nephilim make it hard to take the bible seriously.  If the nephilim are fallen cherubim which is one prominent theory, then if Moses generation actually knew what the cherubim looked like then it would NOT be far fetched to assume they also knew about nephilim which means that you just showed someone who was questioning the accuracy of scripture that it is believable.

Now, do you want to talk about symbolism, I am still working on it, but we can change the topic before I'm ready to if you really insist.
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