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Author Topic: Consequence or punishment?  (Read 2457 times)

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Lori Bolinger

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Consequence or punishment?
« on: September 26, 2018, 09:31:34 am »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.

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patrick jane

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 01:32:35 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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Lori Bolinger

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 08:55:51 am »
I personally side with hell being part of the consequence but it isn't something I would "die" defending.  If the consequence of sin is death and death is eternal separation from God (second death) then wouldn't hell be the consequence as well?
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Bladerunner

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2018, 09:13:47 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.

1st of all, Hell is used in the KJV 54x; Eternal 47x; Torment 11x;

everlasting punishment x1;

Don't believe everything you see on a video.. Eternal Torment is not in the Bible but in Rev. 14:11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:"

It is better to rely on the WORD of GOD instead of someone's words of wisdom.

Death is the Consequence of That First Initial Sin; Gen 2:17.."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For Punishment each different (Adam and Eve),

Eve: Gen 3:16  "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Adam:Gen 3:17.."And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Blade


1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 02:10:16 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.

1st of all, Hell is used in the KJV 54x; Eternal 47x; Torment 11x;

everlasting punishment x1;

Don't believe everything you see on a video.. Eternal Torment is not in the Bible but in Rev. 14:11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:"

It is better to rely on the WORD of GOD instead of someone's words of wisdom.

Death is the Consequence of That First Initial Sin; Gen 2:17.."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For Punishment each different (Adam and Eve),

Eve: Gen 3:16  "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Adam:Gen 3:17.."And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Blade

Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in? Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end? Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth? I suggest you read the Bible more to see if these things be true.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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Bladerunner

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2019, 09:35:05 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.

1st of all, Hell is used in the KJV 54x; Eternal 47x; Torment 11x;

everlasting punishment x1;

Don't believe everything you see on a video.. Eternal Torment is not in the Bible but in Rev. 14:11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:"

It is better to rely on the WORD of GOD instead of someone's words of wisdom.

Death is the Consequence of That First Initial Sin; Gen 2:17.."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For Punishment each different (Adam and Eve),

Eve: Gen 3:16  "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Adam:Gen 3:17.."And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Blade

Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in? Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end? Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth? I suggest you read the Bible more to see if these things be true.


Hello PJ.... The question is,,,,What kind of GOD condemns people to Hell and others to Heaven.

We all have a eternal soul and according to God's Word there are only two final destinations. Being born to darkness and death, we are all headed toward HELL unless?

1. There will not be one person in Hell who is not rebelling against GOD! Think of rebellion. What does it mean?  Is not following GOD's WORD in    1 TIM 2, 3 and Titan considered rebellion? Is Homosexuality considered rebellion?  Is murder, theft, adultery considered a rebellion against God's laws??????????

2. There will  not be one person in Hell who does not deserve to be there! What about the murderer on death row...Does He deserve to GO to HELL.. What about the typical MS-16 bag of trash. Does He or she deserve to go to Hell. What about the boy down the street who steals from everyone and knows no GOD. What about the girl in the neighborhood next to yours, who has child after child out of wedlock and does not want to know GOD. What about the Catholic, who believes in Jesus Christ, yet prays to idols of fallen saints, prays to the IDOL of Jesus' Mother, follows the Pope as the Victor (substitute) of GOD!

3. God has said that He predestined many where He changed their hearts in order for them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and search these things out. IS this not saving them from a eternal life of torment?

From Adam and Eve, the times we were in light, where no death occurred. Yes, we could have had all of that however, due to the Fall of Man, We are born to darkness, sin, death and eternal hell and its torment. 

Torment? Can a person really be tormented in Hell? That I do not know but I suspect it is so for in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:9), all information given indicated the word  is YES 1 . Here we see the Rich Man explaining the torment he was in. He also explains that he is conscious of everything for he can see, he can hear, he can feel, he can speak, he can remember, he can,he can,he can, etc.

To the READER:  Hell is not going to be a nice place to be. You only have one choice and as I am reminded about the traffic accident that took the choice away from a young lady this morning; her rapture happened today but for those of us still living, our rapture is????????

I can only hope and pray that her choice had already been made for Jesus. As for the reader, it is my hope and prayer, you will not dwell on whether GOD is a bad dude because it is a wide spread heresy about His condemning many to hell but rather focus on the salvation that is a gift from Him to you effectively raising your from the depths of HELL.

Blade


1.Many say this story is a parable, yet it is the only story/parable where an actual legal name has been used. From this, we take that Lazarus was indeed in Abraham's Bosom and was removed from His Bosom to paradise when Jesus spent three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.








1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 09:53:19 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.

1st of all, Hell is used in the KJV 54x; Eternal 47x; Torment 11x;

everlasting punishment x1;

Don't believe everything you see on a video.. Eternal Torment is not in the Bible but in Rev. 14:11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:"

It is better to rely on the WORD of GOD instead of someone's words of wisdom.

Death is the Consequence of That First Initial Sin; Gen 2:17.."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For Punishment each different (Adam and Eve),

Eve: Gen 3:16  "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Adam:Gen 3:17.."And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Blade

Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in? Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end? Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth? I suggest you read the Bible more to see if these things be true.


Hello PJ.... The question is,,,,What kind of GOD condemns people to Hell and others to Heaven.

We all have a eternal soul and according to God's Word there are only two final destinations. Being born to darkness and death, we are all headed toward HELL unless?

1. There will not be one person in Hell who is not rebelling against GOD! Think of rebellion. What does it mean?  Is not following GOD's WORD in    1 TIM 2, 3 and Titan considered rebellion? Is Homosexuality considered rebellion?  Is murder, theft, adultery considered a rebellion against God's laws??????????

2. There will  not be one person in Hell who does not deserve to be there! What about the murderer on death row...Does He deserve to GO to HELL.. What about the typical MS-16 bag of trash. Does He or she deserve to go to Hell. What about the boy down the street who steals from everyone and knows no GOD. What about the girl in the neighborhood next to yours, who has child after child out of wedlock and does not want to know GOD. What about the Catholic, who believes in Jesus Christ, yet prays to idols of fallen saints, prays to the IDOL of Jesus' Mother, follows the Pope as the Victor (substitute) of GOD!

3. God has said that He predestined many where He changed their hearts in order for them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and search these things out. IS this not saving them from a eternal life of torment?

From Adam and Eve, the times we were in light, where no death occurred. Yes, we could have had all of that however, due to the Fall of Man, We are born to darkness, sin, death and eternal hell and its torment. 

Torment? Can a person really be tormented in Hell? That I do not know but I suspect it is so for in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:9), all information given indicated the word  is YES 1 . Here we see the Rich Man explaining the torment he was in. He also explains that he is conscious of everything for he can see, he can hear, he can feel, he can speak, he can remember, he can,he can,he can, etc.

To the READER:  Hell is not going to be a nice place to be. You only have one choice and as I am reminded about the traffic accident that took the choice away from a young lady this morning; her rapture happened today but for those of us still living, our rapture is????????

I can only hope and pray that her choice had already been made for Jesus. As for the reader, it is my hope and prayer, you will not dwell on whether GOD is a bad dude because it is a wide spread heresy about His condemning many to hell but rather focus on the salvation that is a gift from Him to you effectively raising your from the depths of HELL.

Blade


1.Many say this story is a parable, yet it is the only story/parable where an actual legal name has been used. From this, we take that Lazarus was indeed in Abraham's Bosom and was removed from His Bosom to paradise when Jesus spent three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.

Thank you Blade, great post. Praise God for giving us the Way, the Truth and the Life. The free gift of salvation.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Bladerunner

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 10:15:34 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.

1st of all, Hell is used in the KJV 54x; Eternal 47x; Torment 11x;

everlasting punishment x1;

Don't believe everything you see on a video.. Eternal Torment is not in the Bible but in Rev. 14:11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:"

It is better to rely on the WORD of GOD instead of someone's words of wisdom.

Death is the Consequence of That First Initial Sin; Gen 2:17.."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For Punishment each different (Adam and Eve),

Eve: Gen 3:16  "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Adam:Gen 3:17.."And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Blade

Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in? Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end? Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth? I suggest you read the Bible more to see if these things be true.


Hello PJ.... The question is,,,,What kind of GOD condemns people to Hell and others to Heaven.

We all have a eternal soul and according to God's Word there are only two final destinations. Being born to darkness and death, we are all headed toward HELL unless?

1. There will not be one person in Hell who is not rebelling against GOD! Think of rebellion. What does it mean?  Is not following GOD's WORD in    1 TIM 2, 3 and Titan considered rebellion? Is Homosexuality considered rebellion?  Is murder, theft, adultery considered a rebellion against God's laws??????????

2. There will  not be one person in Hell who does not deserve to be there! What about the murderer on death row...Does He deserve to GO to HELL.. What about the typical MS-16 bag of trash. Does He or she deserve to go to Hell. What about the boy down the street who steals from everyone and knows no GOD. What about the girl in the neighborhood next to yours, who has child after child out of wedlock and does not want to know GOD. What about the Catholic, who believes in Jesus Christ, yet prays to idols of fallen saints, prays to the IDOL of Jesus' Mother, follows the Pope as the Victor (substitute) of GOD!

3. God has said that He predestined many where He changed their hearts in order for them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and search these things out. IS this not saving them from a eternal life of torment?

From Adam and Eve, the times we were in light, where no death occurred. Yes, we could have had all of that however, due to the Fall of Man, We are born to darkness, sin, death and eternal hell and its torment. 

Torment? Can a person really be tormented in Hell? That I do not know but I suspect it is so for in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:9), all information given indicated the word  is YES 1 . Here we see the Rich Man explaining the torment he was in. He also explains that he is conscious of everything for he can see, he can hear, he can feel, he can speak, he can remember, he can,he can,he can, etc.

To the READER:  Hell is not going to be a nice place to be. You only have one choice and as I am reminded about the traffic accident that took the choice away from a young lady this morning; her rapture happened today but for those of us still living, our rapture is????????

I can only hope and pray that her choice had already been made for Jesus. As for the reader, it is my hope and prayer, you will not dwell on whether GOD is a bad dude because it is a wide spread heresy about His condemning many to hell but rather focus on the salvation that is a gift from Him to you effectively raising your from the depths of HELL.

Blade


1.Many say this story is a parable, yet it is the only story/parable where an actual legal name has been used. From this, we take that Lazarus was indeed in Abraham's Bosom and was removed from His Bosom to paradise when Jesus spent three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.


PJ.. the direct answers to your questions?

You said: "Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in?"     Yes

You said:" Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end?"     Rev 20:10 for one of them: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

You said:"Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth?"

There are only two places to go for eternity after this life. Hell and Heaven.
I believe, NOT ONE PERSON will be in hell because they had faith in Jesus Christ, they followed His teachings, They followed His laws, etc., etc.. 

PJ. I tried to explain this in a previous post yet did not answer your questions. It is very easy to be sucked down into a hole where you have doubts as to GOD intentions. I feel your pain for I have those doubts from time to time. It is not meant for us to know.

We are HIS creations and we live or do not live by His Laws. It is our Free-Will by which He has given us that we make our Choice of those eternal afters.

As I sit here and think about this subject, its implications and our election by HIM, I cannot imagine my life if He had not come into it. I would not have changed for anything as I was living in high cotton (so to speak). Now, I try to live my life according to what He expects from me and I find His expectations in the Bible (KJV) that He has preserved forever. Together with the Holy Spirit within me, I have no fear of what is coming in the near future, I have no doubt that my salvation is secure and I have not doubt that I will be watching the final days on earth after the Rapture of the Church.

For what it is worth: for some reason, I have not had any anxieties for the coming year. Whatever comes, I am prepared for by wearing the whole armor of GOD.

Hang in there my friend and brother in Christ. I am always here for you.

Blade




 




1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 10:26:03 pm »
This discussion is multifaceted so we kind of need to build precept upon precept.

First let's start off with is death the consequence of sin or the punishment for sin? I submit Genesis 3 as the first scripture to look into this concept.

My personal take is that it is a consequence and that the punishment which is laid out in Genesis 3 has a huge purpose in our faith lives that we seldom or ever acknowledge but that will come as we hash out some of the rest of this.
I think you're right that death is a consequence of sin. Would hell be the punishment? I just watched/listened to and just posted here a video about the word hell and eternal torment is NOT mentioned in scripture. Very interesting study. I'll have to read Gen 3 later.

1st of all, Hell is used in the KJV 54x; Eternal 47x; Torment 11x;

everlasting punishment x1;

Don't believe everything you see on a video.. Eternal Torment is not in the Bible but in Rev. 14:11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:"

It is better to rely on the WORD of GOD instead of someone's words of wisdom.

Death is the Consequence of That First Initial Sin; Gen 2:17.."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

For Punishment each different (Adam and Eve),

Eve: Gen 3:16  "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Adam:Gen 3:17.."And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Blade

Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in? Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end? Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth? I suggest you read the Bible more to see if these things be true.


Hello PJ.... The question is,,,,What kind of GOD condemns people to Hell and others to Heaven.

We all have a eternal soul and according to God's Word there are only two final destinations. Being born to darkness and death, we are all headed toward HELL unless?

1. There will not be one person in Hell who is not rebelling against GOD! Think of rebellion. What does it mean?  Is not following GOD's WORD in    1 TIM 2, 3 and Titan considered rebellion? Is Homosexuality considered rebellion?  Is murder, theft, adultery considered a rebellion against God's laws??????????

2. There will  not be one person in Hell who does not deserve to be there! What about the murderer on death row...Does He deserve to GO to HELL.. What about the typical MS-16 bag of trash. Does He or she deserve to go to Hell. What about the boy down the street who steals from everyone and knows no GOD. What about the girl in the neighborhood next to yours, who has child after child out of wedlock and does not want to know GOD. What about the Catholic, who believes in Jesus Christ, yet prays to idols of fallen saints, prays to the IDOL of Jesus' Mother, follows the Pope as the Victor (substitute) of GOD!

3. God has said that He predestined many where He changed their hearts in order for them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and search these things out. IS this not saving them from a eternal life of torment?

From Adam and Eve, the times we were in light, where no death occurred. Yes, we could have had all of that however, due to the Fall of Man, We are born to darkness, sin, death and eternal hell and its torment. 

Torment? Can a person really be tormented in Hell? That I do not know but I suspect it is so for in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:9), all information given indicated the word  is YES 1 . Here we see the Rich Man explaining the torment he was in. He also explains that he is conscious of everything for he can see, he can hear, he can feel, he can speak, he can remember, he can,he can,he can, etc.

To the READER:  Hell is not going to be a nice place to be. You only have one choice and as I am reminded about the traffic accident that took the choice away from a young lady this morning; her rapture happened today but for those of us still living, our rapture is????????

I can only hope and pray that her choice had already been made for Jesus. As for the reader, it is my hope and prayer, you will not dwell on whether GOD is a bad dude because it is a wide spread heresy about His condemning many to hell but rather focus on the salvation that is a gift from Him to you effectively raising your from the depths of HELL.

Blade


1.Many say this story is a parable, yet it is the only story/parable where an actual legal name has been used. From this, we take that Lazarus was indeed in Abraham's Bosom and was removed from His Bosom to paradise when Jesus spent three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.


PJ.. the direct answers to your questions?

You said: "Sorry Blade, but I can't imagine a God that will eternally torment any member of mankind. Is that the God you believe in?"     Yes

You said:" Can you point to scripture that says people will burn in hell forever, with no end?"     Rev 20:10 for one of them: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

You said:"Is that a just punishment for any soul that lived in the earth?"

There are only two places to go for eternity after this life. Hell and Heaven.
I believe, NOT ONE PERSON will be in hell because they had faith in Jesus Christ, they followed His teachings, They followed His laws, etc., etc.. 

PJ. I tried to explain this in a previous post yet did not answer your questions. It is very easy to be sucked down into a hole where you have doubts as to GOD intentions. I feel your pain for I have those doubts from time to time. It is not meant for us to know.

We are HIS creations and we live or do not live by His Laws. It is our Free-Will by which He has given us that we make our Choice of those eternal afters.

As I sit here and think about this subject, its implications and our election by HIM, I cannot imagine my life if He had not come into it. I would not have changed for anything as I was living in high cotton (so to speak). Now, I try to live my life according to what He expects from me and I find His expectations in the Bible (KJV) that He has preserved forever. Together with the Holy Spirit within me, I have no fear of what is coming in the near future, I have no doubt that my salvation is secure and I have not doubt that I will be watching the final days on earth after the Rapture of the Church.

For what it is worth: for some reason, I have not had any anxieties for the coming year. Whatever comes, I am prepared for by wearing the whole armor of GOD.

Hang in there my friend and brother in Christ. I am always here for you.

Blade




 
Thank you God bless you brother. I feel no anxiety anymore either and I am prepared for whatever comes, even if I should die tonight. I know I'm secure and saved and sealed but I do think too much sometimes. I may sound or look confused with all of the different topics I post about but I spend time in the word everyday also.

I know we can never understand all the things of God here on earth. I have tasted the goodness of God and I have endured the sting and the pain the guilt of my sins, it nearly killed me. I knew during those times that Jesus Christ felt the weight of all of our sins and I was only feeling my own. I am astonished at His reproof.

Hey Blade, in the Chat thread here I'm going to start a conversation with you and anyone here about our pasts, like your medical career and your hard work now etc. Thank you brother for being here and being an elder in the Body.

Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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truthjourney

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2019, 11:29:24 am »
Rom. 6:23 seems to indicate that death is the wages or payment of sin.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

wages
ὀψώνια (opsōnia)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 3800: Neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as opsarion; rations for a soldier, i.e. his stipend or pay.

of sin
ἁμαρτίας (hamartias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 266: From hamartano; a sin.

This would apply to both spiritual death or physical death.

[is] death,
θάνατος (thanatos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2288: Death, physical or spiritual. From thnesko; death.



« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:34:51 am by truthjourney »

Lori Bolinger

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2019, 11:34:15 am »
Rom. 6:23 seems to indicate that death is the wages or payment of sin.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

wages
ὀψώνια (opsōnia)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 3800: Neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as opsarion; rations for a soldier, i.e. his stipend or pay.

This would apply to both spiritual death or physical death.

[is] death,
θάνατος (thanatos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2288: Death, physical or spiritual. From thnesko; death.
so if a wage, then how could it be a punishment?  Wouldn't that make it a consequence or that which is earned?  so many people believe that death/hell is the punishment for sin thus God is a big meany...but if we understand that death/hell is the consequence of the wage if you prefer based on this passage, then God is no longer a meaning.

truthjourney

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2019, 11:46:51 am »
Rom. 6:23 seems to indicate that death is the wages or payment of sin.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

wages
ὀψώνια (opsōnia)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 3800: Neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as opsarion; rations for a soldier, i.e. his stipend or pay.

This would apply to both spiritual death or physical death.

[is] death,
θάνατος (thanatos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2288: Death, physical or spiritual. From thnesko; death.
so if a wage, then how could it be a punishment?  Wouldn't that make it a consequence or that which is earned?  so many people believe that death/hell is the punishment for sin thus God is a big meany...but if we understand that death/hell is the consequence of the wage if you prefer based on this passage, then God is no longer a meaning.
We have the gift of God which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So death is not the end. There will be a resurrection.

Rev. 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

2Cor. 5:1,2 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:49:57 am by truthjourney »
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truthjourney

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Re: Consequence or punishment?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2019, 12:36:11 pm »
I just found this scripture from the Aramaic bible. This would indicate that death is a consequence of sin, more in line with what you said. I guess it's good to compare translations.

Rom. 6:23 But the product of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.
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