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Author Topic: Wesleyan Theology  (Read 1183 times)

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Bladerunner

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2020, 06:13:30 pm »
As I have read more about this Theology I have come to one solid foundation thought of John Wesley to build my understanding from 

Wesley believed that the living core of Christianity was revealed in Scripture; and the Bible was the sole foundational source of theological development.  This seems to be ground zero for all of his theological thoughts.  This should be an interesting journey.

The most crucial point for any theology is the way to salvation......Certainly not by works as is most denominations world wide.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2020, 06:29:31 pm »
As I understand Wesley, is salvation came from God's grace
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2020, 11:58:48 pm »
In studying Wesley I have concluded he is not what I would call a Theologian's theologian.  He founded no system even though he is considered a systematic theologian.  He really belonged to no one school of thought, but seemed to embrace many for what became his Methodist approach.  He was more like the well-educated folk preacher that had a system and method.  He did his theology in service to the church and mission.   If not for the Methodist church growth, he would have gone unnoticed in the world of theology.

Just my thoughts at this point as I dig deeper.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 08:42:07 pm by Chaplain Mark Schmidt »
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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2020, 06:00:52 pm »
In studying Wesley I have concluded he is not what I would call a Theologian's theologian.  He founded no system even though he is considered a systematic theologian.  He really belonged to no one school of thought, but seemed to embrace many for what became his Methodist approach.  He was more like the well-educated fold preach that had a system and method.  He did his theology in service to the church and mission.   If not for the Methodist church growth, he would have gone unnoticed in the world of theology.

Just my thoughts at this point as I dig deeper.

Yes, He was a  rather complex individual

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2020, 01:16:35 pm »
I was reading through a book on Wesley's theology and found a passage.  I am paraphrasing it here.  I found it to be a pretty decent explanation in the short form of his Justification theory.   Please forgive the footnote numbers interlaced throughout.   Let me know what your thoughts are if any. 

John Wesley certainly confesses that believers are accepted by God ‘wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for them.’7 However, in the course of his development he became afraid of antinomianism to such an extent that in the end he did not any more use the term ‘imputation of the righteousness of Christ’.8 He rather emphasized that our faith is imputed to us as righteousness. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is characteristic! In Wesley’s thinking the inward aspect always prevails over the relationship with God in Christ.
Moreover, for Wesley it is not justification that is decisive for salvation, but sanctification. It is the new life that is most necessary. Of course, justification is necessary for salvation, but it is not sufficient. The real, essential change in a Christian’s life has to be sanctification, or rather holiness. Wesley mostly treats justification in view of sanctification. Justification for Wesley only means a relative change, sanctification a real one.9 There is a clear difference with Calvin in this respect. For Calvin, justification and sanctification are both given by the grace of God, and they are closely connected. The one cannot exist without the other. Essential to both is the relationship with Christ by faith.
This was not acceptable to Wesley. To him, Calvinism was an impediment on the way to holiness.10
Certainly Wesley confessed that to him justification is a work of God.11 At the same time, the fact that some people believe, and others don’t, is caused not by divine election, as Calvin and Whitefield would say, but by ‘the free responsiveness of human nature’12 that was not taken away.13
Wesley had developed a special construction in order to say that the free choice of man is still caused by free grace. Wesley was convinced that this ‘preventing’ or ‘prevenient’ grace is given to every human being.14 With this construction he could replace the doctrine of predestination of Calvinism. Nevertheless, Wesley’s doctrine of conditions must not be overlooked. In order to receive the grace of faith there must be repentance and ‘works meet for repentance’ that go before faith.15
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2020, 06:05:24 pm »
Very interesting Chaplain, thank you.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2020, 10:03:17 pm »
Wesley is of Armenian theology whose sole purpose was to find away around the WORD of GOD...We see this in the first paragraph. 

“However, in the course of his development he became afraid of antinomianism to such an extent that in the end he did not any more use the term ‘imputation of the righteousness of Christ’."

The imputation of Righteousness was to a person who has the faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"He rather emphasized that our faith is imputed to us as righteousness."

Here righteousness is imputed to the Faith not the person….Thus it could be said that this righteousness is very dependent on the faith of the person..An armenian would argue that Free-Will would be able to pull away from the faith thus foregoing righteousness.

 "Of course, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is characteristic! In Wesley’s thinking the inward aspect always prevails over the relationship with God in Christ.”

Of course this is ok with the author of this article.

"Moreover, for Wesley it is not justification that is decisive for salvation, but sanctification."

Justification is Salvation. Sanctification is the process of one’s walk from sinner to righteousness.

"It is the new life that is most necessary. Of course, justification is necessary for salvation, but it is not sufficient. The real, essential change in a Christian’s life has to be sanctification, or rather holiness. "

Here we see, a cross between Justification by faith and faith alone....to justification plus  the works of a change to a Christian’s life.

Again, it seems one can lose their justification based upon their successful change from sinner to a Christian’s Life?

"Wesley mostly treats justification in view of sanctification. Justification for Wesley only means a relative change, sanctification a real one. "

I think this is self explanatory.  God’s justification is only minor compared to the works of man, his sanctification to Christian Life.

"There is a clear difference with Calvin in this respect. For Calvin, justification and sanctification are both given by the grace of God, and they are closely connected. The one cannot exist without the other. Essential to both is the relationship with Christ by faith.

This was not acceptable to Wesley. To him, Calvinism was an impediment on the way to holiness."

It would seem that Romans 8:29-30 does not mean anything to Wesley even though it is GOD’s WORD as seen in the next paragraph.

"Certainly Wesley confessed that to him justification is a work of God. At the same time, the fact that some people believe, and others don’t, is caused not by divine election, as Calvin and Whitefield would say, but by ‘the free responsiveness of human nature’ that was not taken away.

Wesley had developed a special construction in order to say that the free choice of man is still caused by free grace. "

Once you get away from the WORD of GOD, then anything goes. As Wesley does in his special construction to make it say what He needs it to say.

Wesley was convinced that this ‘preventing’ or ‘prevenient’ grace is given to every human being. With this construction he could replace the doctrine of predestination of Calvinism. 

Replace the WORDs of GOD is the answer!

Nevertheless, Wesley’s doctrine of conditions must not be overlooked. In order to receive the grace of faith there must be repentance and ‘works meet for repentance’ that go before faith.


Or

In order to receive Justification though the grace of Jesus Christ one must have Faith in his Gospel and true repentance (a turn away from sin). If  one’s heart is true, the Holy Spirit will become an indwelling part of the Christian’s life and will guide, teach and protect them through the sanctification process to complete righteousness.
 
Those who subscribe to Fatih plus works, will bring up
Jas 2:18..”Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Salvation through faith does not require works prior but rather works after. Here the “Bema  Seat(1)” judgments will bestow awards based on the works of the person after they have received salvation. and it does not affect one’s salvation.


(1) 2 Co 5:10..”For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2020, 10:47:02 pm »
Blade I am going to assume here that you find no value in know anything about the theology of Welsey?
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2020, 05:57:59 pm »
I am just going to say this upfront I am not a pigeon-holed Christian that hate or accuse those from a different branch of thinking to be committing heresy.  That is not my right, only God gets to sit in judgement of others actions and beliefs.  I find certain historical figures that were and are still influencing the direction of Christianity.  John Wesley is one of those I find fascinating.  If he saw what had become of his thinking in the form of systematic theology, Wesleyan theology and the Methodists Churchs that claim his teachings as their found dogma, he would be shock and ashamed in large parts of it.

I do not believe in reading about him that he had the intention for his version of learning to study and understanding the Bible to be a theology.  As I understand him, he was writing both to a small elite group of theologians and trying to provide a way for the minimally educated churchgoers to be able to understand and appreciate the bible and learn both the words and the meaning. Let us all be honest.  Luther, Calvin, Arminius and even Wesley were trying to find ways to give the common person to understand.  Most of those that attended were barely literate if at all.  The learned by memorizing text and scripture, but most did not understand.  They chose to believe what the Priest or clergy told them it meant.  All these theologians wanted that changed.   No one way was wrong.  The systematic way was a direction that felt a system would work better than the others.  In my opinion, it was all that was meant in the way it was done.

The problem with everything, and what we all face now, is that the original intentions is lost throughout time and sides are taken.  That is what I have encountered in just presenting a look at an important figure in the historical development of Christianity. Look how far we have strayed from what Christ was trying to do.  He just wanted to reform the Jewish belief and way of doing business.  He wanted to change his religion, not be founder of another one.   He failed in his mission to reform but succeeded in finding another based on his teachings.   Instead of celebrating this, we all tend to fight over how to celebrate his teachings, each staking out our own beliefs as a territory and fighting against anything that is not the same.   Why can't we all just celebrate his coming, passing, and resurrection and not get tied down to a singular way to see it?  Just a question that vexes me. 

So when I am talking and researching Wesley, I am not trying to insult anyone or to tell you your belief is wrong.  I am celebrating just another way people have found to praise God and Jesus.  Thats is all that is important.

Okay, Soap box is done.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2020, 09:39:37 pm »
Blade I am going to assume here that you find no value in know anything about the theology of Welsey?

The value of his theology is knowing what it was. Much like the Catholic Theology. One needs to know in order to counter their arguments that their theology is the only way to  get to Heaven.

Blade

 
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2020, 09:53:51 pm »
But who gets to decide whats the right way to get to heaven?  I know I don't.  I  know none of the clergy I know do.  The only that knows if God and last I knew he expressed it through Jesus and we have been feeding over it since.   

I do not disagree knowing is important, but I no more think the Wesleyan, Catholics or ANY others are wrong in the beliefs anymore than I think I am right.  This is the issue that has fracture what should be unifed and because humans are involved it never will be.

Look at just you and me Blade.  We have been atdifferent ends on a few discussions, we still chat and still respect, but we are at odds on the path of belief.  There are many who would be spew hate over our conversations.   

But back to your point, I agree - knowing is important to understanding.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2020, 10:27:35 pm »
I am just going to say this upfront I am not a pigeon-holed Christian that hate or accuse those from a different branch of thinking to be committing heresy.  That is not my right, only God gets to sit in judgement of others actions and beliefs.  I find certain historical figures that were and are still influencing the direction of Christianity.  John Wesley is one of those I find fascinating.  If he saw what had become of his thinking in the form of systematic theology, Wesleyan theology and the Methodists Churchs that claim his teachings as their found dogma, he would be shock and ashamed in large parts of it.

I do not believe in reading about him that he had the intention for his version of learning to study and understanding the Bible to be a theology.  As I understand him, he was writing both to a small elite group of theologians and trying to provide a way for the minimally educated churchgoers to be able to understand and appreciate the bible and learn both the words and the meaning. Let us all be honest.  Luther, Calvin, Arminius and even Wesley were trying to find ways to give the common person to understand.  Most of those that attended were barely literate if at all.  The learned by memorizing text and scripture, but most did not understand.  They chose to believe what the Priest or clergy told them it meant.  All these theologians wanted that changed.   No one way was wrong.  The systematic way was a direction that felt a system would work better than the others.  In my opinion, it was all that was meant in the way it was done.

The problem with everything, and what we all face now, is that the original intentions is lost throughout time and sides are taken.  That is what I have encountered in just presenting a look at an important figure in the historical development of Christianity. Look how far we have strayed from what Christ was trying to do.  He just wanted to reform the Jewish belief and way of doing business.  He wanted to change his religion, not be founder of another one.   He failed in his mission to reform but succeeded in finding another based on his teachings.   Instead of celebrating this, we all tend to fight over how to celebrate his teachings, each staking out our own beliefs as a territory and fighting against anything that is not the same.   Why can't we all just celebrate his coming, passing, and resurrection and not get tied down to a singular way to see it?  Just a question that vexes me. 

So when I am talking and researching Wesley, I am not trying to insult anyone or to tell you your belief is wrong.  I am celebrating just another way people have found to praise God and Jesus.  Thats is all that is important.

Okay, Soap box is done.

good evening Mark:

You said:"Why can't we all just celebrate his coming, passing, and resurrection and not get tied down to a singular way to see it? "

"we all" is the key word here....Until then!!

we are charged by GOD to spread His WORD....and to point out the false teachers/preachers of His Gospel according to scripture.  surely you are in tune to that?

Blessings,

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2020, 11:19:16 pm »
I agree false prophets, fraud preaching for profits and teachers/preachers that do not teach as the Bible asks us to needed pointed out. 

But, my question who decides what makes a teaching false?   There are Calvinist I know that state that Catholic are all heretics.  Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but because the version of the bibles are different.  Those are the thinks that make me crazy.  What gave that single person the rights to spew hate because of their singular viewpoint.   I know a believe in coptic Christian that is more holy and spiritual in his beliefs and teaching than two of my theology instructors.  He teachs love understand and guidance to finding a belief that is similar to what I thin kwe both believe. 

So done with my able and done wearing out soap boxes.  lol
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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