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Author Topic: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.  (Read 1184 times)

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Lori Bolinger

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2021, 11:25:03 am »
When a Trinitarian cannot show proof of Jesus being God in the flesh they fall back to the "Second Person of or in God"
I have been told I'm not trine because I am not of orthodox trinity view...so some of what you are saying will slip by me without understanding because the only trinity I am familiar with is 1. scripture and 2. what most non catholic churches I have heard teach, which is NOT orthodoxy.
Quote

they then say that Jesus was actually God in the flesh, reverting back to the same argument that they couldn't validate the very first time, thereby contradicting themselves before they even get started..
I believe there are two ways that Jesus was God in the flesh...first, John 1:14, I take by faith and 2. as the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God, He would be God in flesh...John 3:16
Quote

so when they are asked a question, which is validated by scripture, "if Jesus were God in the Flesh, then whose will did he come to do if not his own?"
The Father's...as of above, there are two ways to understand it, 1. that of the government analogy that I posted in my first response and 2. as the Son, He would have a Father, just as at His baptism we see the HS appearing as a dove all the while the voice of God is speaking from heaven...you see, if Jesus took on the flesh of man, He would need the will of the NON flesh portion (for lack of a better word) to be the voice/will/command that He would follow.  Not to mention He is our example of obedience.
Quote
this is where the jumbled mess comes in and all the deflections because they know they cannot explain that verse without making Jesus out to be a liar.
which verse am I supposedly deflecting?  You lost me again, just like you not specifying what law you are referring to is confusing me.
Quote

The Deity of the Holy Spirit is factual and Jesus makes it so when he said " God is a Spirit".. where does the Father come in???.... He calls God his father, who is, in fact the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
and yet in the case of Jesus baptism we see the Father speaking from heaven while the Spirit descends like a dove....I am always confused by non trins who try to use the Father is spirit as a way to negate Jesus being God in the flesh.
Quote

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

It doesn't say shall be God, it says Son of God.
as son of God, He is the God man which is what I have always heard taught.
Quote

Twisting scripture and dividing God up into 3 separate beings has no solid foundation in scripture, anywhere...
now it sounds like you are back to orthodoxy rather than mainstream.
Quote

People who utilize Paul as a defense do not comprehend what it is that Paul is actually saying...

I love it when they say that "Paul says we are free from the Law of God." then they say that Paul says that the Law is sin and death... completely ignoring the Question Paul stated Romans 7:7 " What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
you are confusing two different laws...when Paul talks about the law he is referring to the Mosaic law or the ten commandments which are like a summary...the law of sin and death is a natural law thus very different.
Quote


they completely reject Paul..

Paul even says that the Law is Holy, and the commandment is holy, and good and just." Romans 7:12
do you know why the Mosaic law is good and holy and just?  It is because it is a more detailed understanding of the law of Love which is the law we are called to obey.  Matthew 22:40...iow's Love is holy, good, and just...amen and the Law (Mosaic) teaches us what real Love is.
Quote

how would people know they were sinning if God hadn't told that what not to do?
Thus the law...not sure why the question but that is the purpose of the law as in the Mosaic law, the law of sin and death is a very different law.

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2021, 11:50:01 am »
everyone bear with me.. I am still trying to figure out the whole quoting thing on here...
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patrick jane

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2021, 12:48:51 pm »
TB, when the angels ministered to Him they were sent from the Father, we can only assume.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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patrick jane

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2021, 12:57:41 pm »
You see TB? How this thread started, that's why I don't really debate this topic. It is settled whether or not we comprehend. There are simply too many instances of Jesus Christ being equal with God for me to ignore. In fact, I refuse to ignore them. John 1:1-3 tells me everything and nothing can refute that.


My belief is that this particular topic is too deep for mankind to grasp. We can't prove it yet God's words in the Bible prove the trinity. I say Jesus' powers were diminished or veiled as it were, and this was God's Will. In His earthly ministry Jesus prayed to God, asked God for help and always said He did nothing with God the Father saying so. Jesus could still call 12 Legions of Angels and raise the dead and heal and perform miracles. He was worshipped as God.


True Believer, it is you who need to prove that Jesus is not God because the scriptures proclaim it.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Bladerunner

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2021, 09:43:09 pm »
Quote from: True Believer on Today at 10:57:34 am
"The Deity of the Holy Spirit is factual and Jesus makes it so when he said " God is a Spirit".. where does the Father come in???.... He calls God his father, who is, in fact the Holy Ghost/Spirit."

In Gen 1:2.." ...............And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Here we see that GOD as a whole has a Spirit. This spirit is composed of six other spirits... It is clear from this that God can manifest himself in different personalities (I am saying this loosely because the Holy Spirit is not a figure as Jesus was). In Psa 2, we can see all three of them speaking to each other.  In 1 Tim, Jesus Himself tells us GOD had become flesh (that is if Jesus authored the Bible).

Let me answer your question to me: "Whose will was Jesus doing, if he were in fact God in the Flesh, if not his own? because he clearly states that he is doing the will of the one who sent him.."

It is apparent that Jesus as a man had abdicated any Godly powers. For to me, He expected the Jews would indeed accept Him and the Kingdom of Heaven would be brought in. He did not know what awaited Him as that was evident at Gethsemane garden. Mat 26:39.."And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Had he known he was GOD, all he had to do was call down his army of angels. Yet, it seems he did not know He was GOD  but rather; as you (TB) state "He was doing the will of God, His father"

In Mat 26:63, Caiaphas ask Jesus if He was:"that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."

in the next verse, Jesus tells Caiaphas: "........ Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Here, we we Jesus knows that the Son of Man will sit at the right hand of GOD...Yet he did not dispute Caiaphas' statement! You see, Jesus knew that God was His father but he does not seem to  know at that time his power.

Why did Jesus cry " Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" before his next to last breath on the Cross....could it be that He did not know at all what was going to happen to him..

The trinity is so much more that Jesus saying I am GOD! He tells us in so many ways, yet there is a movement states Jesus is not GOD....This is very dangerous direction to take.

One last point: In Isa 44:6, God states:" I am the first, and I am the last; "

In Isa 48:12..God tells us : " I am the first, I also am the last."

In Rev 1:11..Jesus (speaking to John states).." I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:"

OOPS,,,, Jesus said He was what....

to be clear: Rev 1:17..Jesus said to John, when he John fell at Jesus' feet..."Fear not; I am the first and the last:"


OOPS again.....

THEN Jesus tells us in the next verse (Rev 1:18).."I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Regardless of what most will tell you, After the first verse of Revelation, Jesus not GOD (the father) is speaking and here in Rev 1:17-18 [proves the speaker is Jesus) and also proves He is the same GOD who spoke through Isaiah 850 years past.

Blade




« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 09:51:31 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Lori Bolinger

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2021, 10:30:26 am »
Quote from: True Believer on Today at 10:57:34 am
"The Deity of the Holy Spirit is factual and Jesus makes it so when he said " God is a Spirit".. where does the Father come in???.... He calls God his father, who is, in fact the Holy Ghost/Spirit."

In Gen 1:2.." ...............And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Here we see that GOD as a whole has a Spirit. This spirit is composed of six other spirits... It is clear from this that God can manifest himself in different personalities (I am saying this loosely because the Holy Spirit is not a figure as Jesus was). In Psa 2, we can see all three of them speaking to each other.  In 1 Tim, Jesus Himself tells us GOD had become flesh (that is if Jesus authored the Bible).

Let me answer your question to me: "Whose will was Jesus doing, if he were in fact God in the Flesh, if not his own? because he clearly states that he is doing the will of the one who sent him.."

It is apparent that Jesus as a man had abdicated any Godly powers. For to me, He expected the Jews would indeed accept Him and the Kingdom of Heaven would be brought in. He did not know what awaited Him as that was evident at Gethsemane garden. Mat 26:39.."And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
this obviously shows us that we read things differently depending on what we want it to say, because to many in this world, it is a picture of Jesus yielding His fleshly will to the spiritual will of the Father, something we all should do...iow's Jesus saying, "this is what my flesh wants, My spirit however wants what You want.
Quote

Had he known he was GOD, all he had to do was call down his army of angels. Yet, it seems he did not know He was GOD  but rather; as you (TB) state "He was doing the will of God, His father"
or, maybe, He was just wiling to accept God's will over the will of His flesh...hum...
Quote

In Mat 26:63, Caiaphas ask Jesus if He was:"that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."

in the next verse, Jesus tells Caiaphas: "........ Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Here, we we Jesus knows that the Son of Man will sit at the right hand of GOD...Yet he did not dispute Caiaphas' statement! You see, Jesus knew that God was His father but he does not seem to  know at that time his power.[/qutoe] please prove in scripture where Jesus didn't know His power or place in the Kingdom?  All I see so far is speculations based on a partial understanding of scripture.
Quote

Why did Jesus cry " Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" before his next to last breath on the Cross....could it be that He did not know at all what was going to happen to him..
?????? That one doesn't even hint of making sense...
Quote


The trinity is so much more that Jesus saying I am GOD! He tells us in so many ways, yet there is a movement states Jesus is not GOD....This is very dangerous direction to take.

One last point: In Isa 44:6, God states:" I am the first, and I am the last; "

In Isa 48:12..God tells us : " I am the first, I also am the last."

In Rev 1:11..Jesus (speaking to John states).." I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:"

OOPS,,,, Jesus said He was what....

to be clear: Rev 1:17..Jesus said to John, when he John fell at Jesus' feet..."Fear not; I am the first and the last:"


OOPS again.....

THEN Jesus tells us in the next verse (Rev 1:18).."I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Regardless of what most will tell you, After the first verse of Revelation, Jesus not GOD (the father) is speaking and here in Rev 1:17-18 [proves the speaker is Jesus) and also proves He is the same GOD who spoke through Isaiah 850 years past.

Blade

Ted T.

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2021, 11:34:54 am »
See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.


ImCo:
The scriptures validate nothing... Our personal interpretations of what they mean validates our preconceptions.


The only true validation comes from the Spirit, personally, the One who leads us into all truth. This is a personal validation that can be shared but not proven...like all doctrine.

I have put my faith in the One GOD in 3 persons, amen. Not because I have proof, (faith is an unproven hope, remember) but because I have faith in the Spirit who leads me to be
Divine.
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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patrick jane

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2021, 11:37:39 am »
See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.


ImCo:
The scriptures validate nothing... Our personal interpretations of what they mean validates our preconceptions.


The only true validation comes from the Spirit, personally, the One who leads us into all truth. This is a personal validation that can be shared but not proven...like all doctrine.

I have put my faith in the One GOD in 3 persons, amen. Not because I have proof, (faith is an unproven hope, remember) but because I have faith in the Spirit who leads me to be
Divine.
Well put, and I am the same way. The triune God was revealed to me by the holy spirit as a child and many times since. Thanks Ted -
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Bladerunner

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2021, 03:02:12 pm »
See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.


ImCo:
The scriptures validate nothing... Our personal interpretations of what they mean validates our preconceptions.


The only true validation comes from the Spirit, personally, the One who leads us into all truth. This is a personal validation that can be shared but not proven...like all doctrine.

I have put my faith in the One GOD in 3 persons, amen. Not because I have proof, (faith is an unproven hope, remember) but because I have faith in the Spirit who leads me to be
Divine.
Well put, and I am the same way. The triune God was revealed to me by the holy spirit as a child and many times since. Thanks Ted -

may I ask about ImCO? and who/what this is?

The literal interpretation needs no further interpretation

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Ted T.

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2021, 09:27:35 am »
Quote
may I ask about ImCO? and who/what this is?The literal interpretation needs no further interpretation
Blade



In my Christian
opinion...
[/size]
[/size]If there was no need for help above the literal interpretation then there could be no contrary interpretations, no? Everyone believes they have the literal interpretation...yet they contradict.
[/size]
[/size]I don't know why the word Christian is not coming thru properly but my toggle view link is not working to fix it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 09:34:02 am by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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rstrats

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2021, 06:29:55 am »
Can the father, and the son and the holy spirit converse back and forth among themselves, and can God join in when he so wishes?

Also, not that it proves anything, of course, but I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the holy spirit in any of his letter's salutations. 

rstrats

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2021, 06:39:46 am »

Bladerunner,
re:  "indwelling spirit of GOD Yet, to get here at this place in time, we must first be baptized in what?:  Mat 28:19.."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

For what it's worth, if anything:

The Catholic Encyclopedia II (Page 263)
“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”

Britannica Encyclopedia 11th Edition, Vol 3 (Page 82, and Pages 365-366)
“Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the name of Jesus Christ.”- “The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century.”

Canney Encylopedia of Religion (Page 53)
“The early church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until development of the Trinity doctrine in the 2nd century.”

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patrick jane

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2021, 10:16:31 am »
Can the father, and the son and the holy spirit converse back and forth among themselves, and can God join in when he so wishes?

Also, not that it proves anything, of course, but I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the holy spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
Maybe not in the salutations but he does in the scriptures he writes.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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