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Author Topic: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.  (Read 1184 times)

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True Believer

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Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« on: January 07, 2021, 12:49:40 pm »
A little bit about my Back Ground...

For Many years I had been a Hardcore defender of the Trinity doctrine.. in fact, could defend it better than 90% of present day Trinitarians.

Then I was faced with a plethora of Questions..

Who died on the Cross?
Who Sent God to do their Will?
Who's words was God speaking?
How can you blaspheme/speak words against God and it be forgivable?

Hard facts of the Trinity Doctrine...

God from God
God became Flesh
God is the Son

then I had to ask myself.. If God was the Father of Jesus, then who was the one the Angel said that Jesus was conceived of if not God?

The very Beginning of the Lords prayer states "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name."

Scripture that debunks the very notion of a trinity.

John 14:23,24 "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

Had Jesus been "God in the Flesh" their would not have been "WE' but it would have read "I"

John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

.Just to name a couple, but there are plenty in the first 4 books of the NT.

Please try to keep the insults to a minimum, if you can.. I know ic can be hard as I am guilty of them as well..

There is nothing in Scripture that validates God from God, God is the Son, Nor that Jesus was God in the Flesh.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 06:54:29 pm by patrick jane »

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patrick jane

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2021, 01:29:54 pm »
A little bit about my Back Ground...

For Many years I had been a Hardcore defender of the Trinity doctrine.. in fact, could defend it better than 90% of present day Trinitarians.

Then I was faced with a plethora of Questions..

Who died on the Cross?
Who Sent God to do their Will?
Who's words was God speaking?
How can you blaspheme/speak words against God and it be forgivable?

Hard facts of the Trinity Doctrine...

God from God
God became Flesh
God is the Son

then I had to ask myself.. If God was the Father of Jesus, then who was the one the Angel said that Jesus was conceived of if not God?

The very Beginning of the Lords prayer states "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name."

Scripture that debunks the very notion of a trinity.

John 14:23,24 "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

Had Jesus been "God in the Flesh" their would not have been "WE' but it would have read "I"

John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

.Just to name a couple, but there are plenty in the first 4 books of the NT.

Please try to keep the insults to a minimum, if you can.. I know ic can be hard as I am guilty of them as well..

There is nothing in Scripture that validates God from God, God is the Son, Nor that Jesus was God in the Flesh.
See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 01:40:12 pm »
]See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.

The "We" in Question is God and Jesus.. a duality.

Jesus often says Him that sent me and He who sent me.



Bladerunner

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 11:08:17 pm »
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
]See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.

The "We" in Question is God and Jesus.. a duality.

Jesus often says Him that sent me and He who sent me.

Good evening True Believer :

If you say is true then all believers who are justified (including yourself) have been lied to and will be condemned to The Lake of Fire along with Lucifer,

For in Deu 6:4..God (the author) tells us this..."Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

There is only one GOD yet, one must be baptized in all three entities of the GodHead. Mat 28:19.

Oh yes, the GodHead??..Col 2:6.."As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:"

indwelling spirit of GOD Yet, to get here at this place in time, we must first be baptized in what?:  Mat 28:19.."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

I do not insult you but rather care about the reasons why you changed from the Trinity.   For among all doctrines of the Bible, an error in this doctrine is by far the most dangerous. 

If you wish, we can debate this misgivings of your where all can see.


Blade







1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2021, 06:59:50 am »
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
]See, now I think these verses show the triune God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this thread.

The "We" in Question is God and Jesus.. a duality.

Jesus often says Him that sent me and He who sent me.

Good evening True Believer :

If you say is true then all believers who are justified (including yourself) have been lied to and will be condemned to The Lake of Fire along with Lucifer,

For in Deu 6:4..God (the author) tells us this..."Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

There is only one GOD yet, one must be baptized in all three entities of the GodHead. Mat 28:19.

Oh yes, the GodHead??..Col 2:6.."As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:"

indwelling spirit of GOD Yet, to get here at this place in time, we must first be baptized in what?:  Mat 28:19.."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

I do not insult you but rather care about the reasons why you changed from the Trinity.   For among all doctrines of the Bible, an error in this doctrine is by far the most dangerous. 

If you wish, we can debate this misgivings of your where all can see.


Blade

If you would like to debate we can certainly do that as well.. as soon as you can answer one question...

Whose will was Jesus doing, if he were in fact God in the Flesh, if not his own? because he clearly states that he is doing the will of the one who sent him..
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patrick jane

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 07:41:33 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2021, 08:14:21 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.

I believe in the Divinity of Jesus as well but Divinity does not equal Deity.. this is where people get things mixed up...
When you say diminished, are you saying that the Angels of God that came down to minister to Jesus were not being completely forthcoming???

The second you split God into 3 separate persons you are creating 3 separate Gods.. now when a person states that Jesus was God in the flesh then you open a can of worms you cannot close because by that very statement Jesus was , In Fact, God, therefore Jesus would be doing his own will and not that of someone else..

I know many will look at what I just said and take it all out of context because they will only focus on one thing, which is what Trinitarians do, find the one thing they can rail against.

Example, do you believe that we are free from the Law of God?

Lori Bolinger

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2021, 08:36:05 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.

I believe in the Divinity of Jesus as well but Divinity does not equal Deity.. this is where people get things mixed up...
When you say diminished, are you saying that the Angels of God that came down to minister to Jesus were not being completely forthcoming???
I feel like we are trying to bite off more than we can chew in one bite...so I'll try to jump in...starting here.  I do NOT believe that we can fully understand the trinity in the flesh, it takes faith.  That being said one explanation I heard which is valid from the standpoint of scripture is that of a government...One government but different rulers.  Of course, this isn't a perfect illustration in that we have to accept it by faith but it does show the concept in a manner that makes logical sense which as I understand your current argument it is about logic, not scripture.
This understanding then leaves no quandary that I understand here.
Quote

The second you split God into 3 separate persons you are creating 3 separate Gods.. now when a person states that Jesus was God in the flesh then you open a can of worms you cannot close because by that very statement Jesus was , In Fact, God, therefore Jesus would be doing his own will and not that of someone else..
as I understand trinity teaching (not orthodox but mainstream) God revealed Himself in three different personifications...iow's not three different persons which we know that as one being Spirit would be the "logical" teaching, but rather three different manifestations of One being.  A modern day example would be that I am daughter, wife, and mother.  One person three different manifestations of who I am in totality.
Quote

I know many will look at what I just said and take it all out of context because they will only focus on one thing, which is what Trinitarians do, find the one thing they can rail against.

Example, do you believe that we are free from the Law of God?
Not sure what you mean by this, which law?  There is the law of sin and death, the Mosaic law, the ten commandment law, and the law of Love...which are you referring to here?

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 08:45:17 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.

I believe in the Divinity of Jesus as well but Divinity does not equal Deity.. this is where people get things mixed up...
When you say diminished, are you saying that the Angels of God that came down to minister to Jesus were not being completely forthcoming???
I feel like we are trying to bite off more than we can chew in one bite...so I'll try to jump in...starting here.  I do NOT believe that we can fully understand the trinity in the flesh, it takes faith.  That being said one explanation I heard which is valid from the standpoint of scripture is that of a government...One government but different rulers.  Of course, this isn't a perfect illustration in that we have to accept it by faith but it does show the concept in a manner that makes logical sense which as I understand your current argument it is about logic, not scripture.
This understanding then leaves no quandary that I understand here.
Quote

The second you split God into 3 separate persons you are creating 3 separate Gods.. now when a person states that Jesus was God in the flesh then you open a can of worms you cannot close because by that very statement Jesus was , In Fact, God, therefore Jesus would be doing his own will and not that of someone else..
as I understand trinity teaching (not orthodox but mainstream) God revealed Himself in three different personifications...iow's not three different persons which we know that as one being Spirit would be the "logical" teaching, but rather three different manifestations of One being.  A modern day example would be that I am daughter, wife, and mother.  One person three different manifestations of who I am in totality.
Quote

I know many will look at what I just said and take it all out of context because they will only focus on one thing, which is what Trinitarians do, find the one thing they can rail against.

Example, do you believe that we are free from the Law of God?
Not sure what you mean by this, which law?  There is the law of sin and death, the Mosaic law, the ten commandment law, and the law of Love...which are you referring to here?

there is only one Law of God...
I was actually hoping you would pop in here...TY for showing up...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 08:49:08 am by True Believer »

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2021, 09:22:22 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.

I believe in the Divinity of Jesus as well but Divinity does not equal Deity.. this is where people get things mixed up...
When you say diminished, are you saying that the Angels of God that came down to minister to Jesus were not being completely forthcoming???
I feel like we are trying to bite off more than we can chew in one bite...so I'll try to jump in...starting here.  I do NOT believe that we can fully understand the trinity in the flesh, it takes faith.  That being said one explanation I heard which is valid from the standpoint of scripture is that of a government...One government but different rulers.  Of course, this isn't a perfect illustration in that we have to accept it by faith but it does show the concept in a manner that makes logical sense which as I understand your current argument it is about logic, not scripture.
This understanding then leaves no quandary that I understand here.
Quote

The second you split God into 3 separate persons you are creating 3 separate Gods.. now when a person states that Jesus was God in the flesh then you open a can of worms you cannot close because by that very statement Jesus was , In Fact, God, therefore Jesus would be doing his own will and not that of someone else..
as I understand trinity teaching (not orthodox but mainstream) God revealed Himself in three different personifications...iow's not three different persons which we know that as one being Spirit would be the "logical" teaching, but rather three different manifestations of One being.  A modern day example would be that I am daughter, wife, and mother.  One person three different manifestations of who I am in totality.
Quote

I know many will look at what I just said and take it all out of context because they will only focus on one thing, which is what Trinitarians do, find the one thing they can rail against.

Example, do you believe that we are free from the Law of God?
Not sure what you mean by this, which law?  There is the law of sin and death, the Mosaic law, the ten commandment law, and the law of Love...which are you referring to here?

there is only one Law of God...
which one are you referring to?  I'm not following the question.
Quote
I was actually hoping you would pop in here...TY for showing up...
I don't know whether to be nervous, scared, or complimented....lol

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2021, 09:47:34 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.

I believe in the Divinity of Jesus as well but Divinity does not equal Deity.. this is where people get things mixed up...
When you say diminished, are you saying that the Angels of God that came down to minister to Jesus were not being completely forthcoming???
I feel like we are trying to bite off more than we can chew in one bite...so I'll try to jump in...starting here.  I do NOT believe that we can fully understand the trinity in the flesh, it takes faith.  That being said one explanation I heard which is valid from the standpoint of scripture is that of a government...One government but different rulers.  Of course, this isn't a perfect illustration in that we have to accept it by faith but it does show the concept in a manner that makes logical sense which as I understand your current argument it is about logic, not scripture.
This understanding then leaves no quandary that I understand here.
Quote

The second you split God into 3 separate persons you are creating 3 separate Gods.. now when a person states that Jesus was God in the flesh then you open a can of worms you cannot close because by that very statement Jesus was , In Fact, God, therefore Jesus would be doing his own will and not that of someone else..
as I understand trinity teaching (not orthodox but mainstream) God revealed Himself in three different personifications...iow's not three different persons which we know that as one being Spirit would be the "logical" teaching, but rather three different manifestations of One being.  A modern day example would be that I am daughter, wife, and mother.  One person three different manifestations of who I am in totality.
Quote

I know many will look at what I just said and take it all out of context because they will only focus on one thing, which is what Trinitarians do, find the one thing they can rail against.

Example, do you believe that we are free from the Law of God?
Not sure what you mean by this, which law?  There is the law of sin and death, the Mosaic law, the ten commandment law, and the law of Love...which are you referring to here?

there is only one Law of God...
which one are you referring to?  I'm not following the question.
Quote
I was actually hoping you would pop in here...TY for showing up...
I don't know whether to be nervous, scared, or complimented....lol

There is only one Law of God and Jesus himself spoke of it and it alone... even quoted it...

I would say complimented mainly...

Lori Bolinger

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 10:04:58 am »
As I understand God, He is One. God is triune in nature, three persons of God. Therefore, the Father's Will is always done. Jesus Christ in uncreated and God IS the Holy Ghost as well. I believe completely in the divinity of Jesus and His knowledge and power were diminished while He was in the flesh, in my opinion.
please repeat it so I know what we are talking about...as I pointed out there are several laws talked about in scripture.  If I don't know which one we are talking about I can't possibly know how to answer.

I believe in the Divinity of Jesus as well but Divinity does not equal Deity.. this is where people get things mixed up...
When you say diminished, are you saying that the Angels of God that came down to minister to Jesus were not being completely forthcoming???
I feel like we are trying to bite off more than we can chew in one bite...so I'll try to jump in...starting here.  I do NOT believe that we can fully understand the trinity in the flesh, it takes faith.  That being said one explanation I heard which is valid from the standpoint of scripture is that of a government...One government but different rulers.  Of course, this isn't a perfect illustration in that we have to accept it by faith but it does show the concept in a manner that makes logical sense which as I understand your current argument it is about logic, not scripture.
This understanding then leaves no quandary that I understand here.
Quote

The second you split God into 3 separate persons you are creating 3 separate Gods.. now when a person states that Jesus was God in the flesh then you open a can of worms you cannot close because by that very statement Jesus was , In Fact, God, therefore Jesus would be doing his own will and not that of someone else..
as I understand trinity teaching (not orthodox but mainstream) God revealed Himself in three different personifications...iow's not three different persons which we know that as one being Spirit would be the "logical" teaching, but rather three different manifestations of One being.  A modern day example would be that I am daughter, wife, and mother.  One person three different manifestations of who I am in totality.
Quote

I know many will look at what I just said and take it all out of context because they will only focus on one thing, which is what Trinitarians do, find the one thing they can rail against.

Example, do you believe that we are free from the Law of God?
Not sure what you mean by this, which law?  There is the law of sin and death, the Mosaic law, the ten commandment law, and the law of Love...which are you referring to here?

there is only one Law of God...
which one are you referring to?  I'm not following the question.
Quote
I was actually hoping you would pop in here...TY for showing up...
I don't know whether to be nervous, scared, or complimented....lol

There is only one Law of God and Jesus himself spoke of it and it alone... even quoted it...

I would say complimented mainly...

True Believer

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Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 10:57:34 am »
When a Trinitarian cannot show proof of Jesus being God in the flesh they fall back to the "Second Person of or in God"

they then say that Jesus was actually God in the flesh, reverting back to the same argument that they couldn't validate the very first time, thereby contradicting themselves before they even get started..

so when they are asked a question, which is validated by scripture, "if Jesus were God in the Flesh, then whose will did he come to do if not his own?"

this is where the jumbled mess comes in and all the deflections because they know they cannot explain that verse without making Jesus out to be a liar.

The Deity of the Holy Spirit is factual and Jesus makes it so when he said " God is a Spirit".. where does the Father come in???.... He calls God his father, who is, in fact the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

It doesn't say shall be God, it says Son of God.

Twisting scripture and dividing God up into 3 separate beings has no solid foundation in scripture, anywhere...

People who utilize Paul as a defense do not comprehend what it is that Paul is actually saying...

I love it when they say that "Paul says we are free from the Law of God." then they say that Paul says that the Law is sin and death... completely ignoring the Question Paul stated Romans 7:7 " What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

they completely reject Paul..

Paul even says that the Law is Holy, and the commandment is holy, and good and just." Romans 7:12

how would people know they were sinning if God hadn't told that what not to do?
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Your Favorite Music, Images and Memes by patrick jane
Today at 11:23:28 am

PATRICK JANE FORUMS MILESTONES by patrick jane
Today at 10:09:47 am

THREAD FOR POSTING ANYTHING JUST TO RAISE THE POST COUNT by truthjourney
Today at 05:24:05 am

FACE LIKE THE SUN - CANARY CRY NEWS TALK (CCNT) by truthjourney
Today at 02:15:18 am

Salvation, Doctrine and Rightly Dividing - MAD by patrick jane
July 25, 2021, 11:05:13 pm

Prayer Forum by Chaplain Mark Schmidt
July 25, 2021, 10:41:56 pm

Scriptures - Verse Of The Day and Discussion by Chaplain Mark Schmidt
July 25, 2021, 10:03:50 pm

VIDEO MINISTRY BY LION OF JUDAH by patrick jane
July 25, 2021, 06:41:56 pm

What's on your mind? Chat Thread by Bladerunner
July 25, 2021, 02:14:39 pm

Just curious... by Bladerunner
July 25, 2021, 01:10:24 pm

Fear and Loathing In The Flat Earth by patrick jane
July 25, 2021, 11:07:32 am

Philosophy and Theology with Jay Dyer by patrick jane
July 25, 2021, 11:06:26 am

Killer Whale Channels - YouTube Live Streams by truthjourney
July 25, 2021, 10:16:28 am

Christian Music by truthjourney
July 25, 2021, 10:05:23 am

TOMMY TRAVELS YOUTUBE CHANNEL by patrick jane
July 24, 2021, 06:24:54 pm

Woman's Suffrage Movement Compared To Feminism Today by patrick jane
July 23, 2021, 08:56:04 pm

Sleeping With Fire - Not All Sins Are the Same (SEXUAL SIN) by patrick jane
July 23, 2021, 07:16:07 pm

ROBERT SEPEHR - ANTHROPOLOGY - Myths and Mythology by patrick jane
July 23, 2021, 06:55:12 pm