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Author Topic: Wesleyan Theology  (Read 1506 times)

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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 11:41:06 pm »
The more I read and the more I study his reading the more interesting I find John Wesley.  Still do not think I can ever agree with his teachings, theory, and ideas.  However, for his time and the state of organized religion at that time, he would have made a lot of sense and found many that would agree with him and what he was trying to do and preach.   His 62 most important sermons can be eye-opening on what he was thinking more that all the writings about him. 
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Bladerunner

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2020, 07:00:25 pm »
I agree with false prophets, fraud preaching for profits and teachers/preachers that do not teach as the Bible asks us to needed pointed out. 

But, my question who decides what makes a teaching false?   There are Calvinist I know that state that Catholics are all heretics.  Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but because the version of the bibles is different.  Those are the things that make me crazy.  What gave that single person the right to spew hate because of their singular viewpoint.   I know a believer in Coptic Christianity that is more holy and spiritual in his beliefs and teaching than two of my theology instructors.  He teaches love, understanding, and guidance to finding a belief that is similar to what I think we both believe. 

So, done with my babble and done wearing out soapboxes.  lol
Mark, May I answer one or two of your points...They are valid and need answering.

I am a Calvinist. I believe that doctrine of Predestination...I believe in the five points of Calvinism. Beyond that, I have some problems with His (Calvin's) viewpoints.

I also believe that the Doctrine of Free-Will is alive and well (john 3:16). Both of these doctrines are spoken of in the WORD of GOD.

Therefore both of these doctrines are preached by Jesus Christ, yet many try to make it one or the other and Yes, many Calvinist and Armenians will attest to that.

 I teach He said both and does not tell us how He reconciles with one of them to the other. It is His word.

*********

You said : "Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but because the version of the bibles is different. "

I am one of those that believe in the KJV vs all those other versions. Mainly because of the references they used to be translated. Also, because the KJV has been with us for 400 years plus, without change except those editors notes and maps by the publisher. On the other hand, the other versions are edited frequently even yearly with the verses that Jesus spoke being changed to todays meanings. This presents a problem as back when I was growing up, a Hoe had a different meaning.  A Coke had a different meaning, etc.

I ask all of you. Take any of the newer version and apply them to the KJV. Lets look one one verse in two different bible versions (out of many) for brevity.

1 Tim 3:16.(KJV). "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

1 TIM  3:16 (NIV*).."Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit,[fn] was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory"


! I have put both of them in red for highlighting purposes only. I also will not try to translate them against each other but rather let the reader do that in their own time.

*NIV- is according to most sources the most popular version of the bible used in most of the churches today.

I do have a question about these two bible versions of the same verse.

Could someone that does not know about Jesus pick up a NIV version, read that verse and come away with the fact that Jesus is GOD.  My answer to this is apparent. NO!

There are many other verses that would lead a person away from Jesus Christ. These can be individual discussions, each and every one of them.

********

What is a Heretic??? via Cambridge Dictionary there are two defs.
1. someone who has an opinion that is opposite to or against the official or popular opinion:
2. someone who has beliefs that are against the principles of a particular religion:


Now if we take the 1. def, it would be hard to call ROC Heretics as they have over 1 Billion paritioners/believers , thus they are  the popular opinion!

The 2nd is a little different. Again this view 2nd view of His WORD has slipped into a minority status held by only 1 out of every ten churches on the earth. That view is that Jesus Christ and His Gospel (according to scriptures) are our salvation through Faith and Faith alone. This the ROC and 9 out of every denominational church and most non-denominational churches disagree with.

God tells us not to have any other Gods or idols before us.
* What is praying to the saints?
*What about Praying to Jesus' mother? They made her a co-redemptrix!  Able to save a person? like Jesus?   
*The ROC does not believe that a person will go to Hell but rather a place called Perdition where the person can work off His/her sin and finally get to heaven?
*The pope is called the Vicar of Christ...Does anyone know what that means? really?? It means that the Pope is taking the place of Christ here on earth.

I could go on, but it would only serve for those to say I am a ROC phobic which I am not...I just feel and pray for the people of that church knowing, the words of Jesus Christ in Revelation will take most of them to hell because of the False teaching of that Church.

***********

*Mark: are we not charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ (according to scriptures), not someone's beliefs?

*Are we not also charged with calling those out who are preaching or teaching a "FALSE" Gospel so the reader can make a informed decision?

That is what I try to do. Give the WORD's of Jesus Christ independent of my own interpretation and let them decide.

I hope this rant--did not offend you as it was only meant to answer some of your questions and thoughts...The last paragraph sums it all up, When I see something that is not right, I will use GOD's word if it literally, historically and grammatically differs, to call it out

Blade
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 07:14:22 pm by Bladerunner »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2020, 07:40:26 pm »
First Blade, I am not offended when it comes to how each person views their relationship with God.  That is theirs, not mine.  Second, you always take time to explain and flush out your point of view.  It is not insulting or name-calling or damning me to hell.  I am no a Calvinist nor a Wesleyan or for that matter any other defined theology at this point.  I find them all fascinating and worthy of study.  Some I enjoy more than others, some I struggle with.

I am the same when it comes to the choice of Bibles.  Each to their own.  I prefer the ESV for the academic side of things as much as I prefer the Oxford for the research side.  I love the KJV for its eloquence but find that its eloquence sometimes hinders its understanding.  But that is just my opinion and no one else's.  I do my best not to force how I see things on others, but I will still express how I feel.

You said : "Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but because the version of the bibles is different. "  I said this based on multiple different experiences and not as some generic overview.  If I was not clear it was from experience and only limited to that, I apologize.  But it does happen.   That is where we run afoul of choice of Bible and holding it so close to being the only acceptable view, that we can, in some instances, loose sight of spreading Jesus' teachings.  I can get into a tit for tat over which is more accurate which is more used, which is based on the oldest etc.  But that again defeats the complete purpose of the teachings of Jesus.

*Mark: are we not charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ (according to scriptures), not someone's beliefs?

*Are we not also charged with calling those out who are preaching or teaching a "FALSE" Gospel so the reader can make a informed decision?

That is what I try to do. Give the WORD's of Jesus Christ independent of my own interpretation and let them decide.


Amen to that and I am agreement.   I think we both have the same goals and desires on spreading the Gospel, we have just chosen a different approach to the same thing.

Thank you for your reply and the discussion.  I am always grateful for it.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Bladerunner

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2020, 09:51:18 pm »
First Blade, I am not offended when it comes to how each person views their relationship with God.  That is theirs, not mine.  Second, you always take time to explain and flush out your point of view.  It is not insulting or name-calling or damning me to hell.  I am no a Calvinist nor a Wesleyan or for that matter any other defined theology at this point.  I find them all fascinating and worthy of study.  Some I enjoy more than others, some I struggle with.

I am the same when it comes to the choice of Bibles.  Each to their own.  I prefer the ESV for the academic side of things as much as I prefer the Oxford for the research side.  I love the KJV for its eloquence but find that its eloquence sometimes hinders its understanding.  But that is just my opinion and no one else's.  I do my best not to force how I see things on others, but I will still express how I feel.

You said : "Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but because the version of the bibles is different. "  I said this based on multiple different experiences and not as some generic overview.  If I was not clear it was from experience and only limited to that, I apologize.  But it does happen.   That is where we run afoul of choice of Bible and holding it so close to being the only acceptable view, that we can, in some instances, loose sight of spreading Jesus' teachings.  I can get into a tit for tat over which is more accurate which is more used, which is based on the oldest etc.  But that again defeats the complete purpose of the teachings of Jesus.

*Mark: are we not charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ (according to scriptures), not someone's beliefs?

*Are we not also charged with calling those out who are preaching or teaching a "FALSE" Gospel so the reader can make a informed decision?

That is what I try to do. Give the WORD's of Jesus Christ independent of my own interpretation and let them decide.


Amen to that and I am agreement.   I think we both have the same goals and desires on spreading the Gospel, we have just chosen a different approach to the same thing.

Thank you for your reply and the discussion.  I am always grateful for it.

thank you for your kind words and understanding. you have brought much to this forum with your dedication and wisdom. Thank You.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2020, 02:16:36 am »
As I dig into John Wesley I am not sure he can be called a Theologian in the same sense as we do the reformers, but none the less he was a Theologian.   Some I have noticed say he is not a Theologian since he has no theology of his own.   Yet in same breath say I am a threologian because I have a degree in Theology.  That just does not make sense.

I know as far as I am concerned he was a theologian.  I believe he did have his own version of Theology.  That I find his Theology very optimistic for the human relationship with God.   He was very into us finding a holy love relationship with God. 

I still struggle with his version of Grace though.  Those that are Pauline oor Calvinist, will not like much about him has become obvious, even though he is kind of a closet Pauline in nature.   In fact one of the Seminary's I took my first few courses at were a Methodist/Wesletan Seminary called St Paul. 
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Bladerunner

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2020, 08:57:19 am »
As I dig into John Wesley I am not sure he can be called a Theologian in the same sense as we do the reformers, but none the less he was a Theologian.   Some I have noticed say he is not a Theologian since he has no theology of his own.   Yet in same breath say I am a threologian because I have a degree in Theology.  That just does not make sense.

I know as far as I am concerned he was a theologian.  I believe he did have his own version of Theology.  That I find his Theology very optimistic for the human relationship with God.   He was very into us finding a holy love relationship with God. 

I still struggle with his version of Grace though.  Those that are Pauline oor Calvinist, will not like much about him has become obvious, even though he is kind of a closet Pauline in nature.   In fact one of the Seminary's I took my first few courses at were a Methodist/Wesletan Seminary called St Paul.

Yes, John, his brother Charles and George Whitfield are considered the father of Methodism. However, like all the denominations of today, they brought with them the errors of the "Mother Church" (Catholic Church), including the "church state" and 'infant Baptism".

The first Methodist church "Methodist Episcopal Church" began in Baltimore in 1784.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2020, 12:11:01 am »
The mre I read about Wesley and his Theology the more I see a combination of Luthers struggle as he started his move to his reformer self, the mysticism of Tauler and a lot of simplest thought seen in the nominalist school of thought of Biel.

This has made it really hard to get a true handle on his thoughts and not what we see now. 
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Bladerunner

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Re: Wesleyan Theology
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2020, 08:43:12 pm »
The mre I read about Wesley and his Theology the more I see a combination of Luthers struggle as he started his move to his reformer self, the mysticism of Tauler and a lot of simplest thought seen in the nominalist school of thought of Biel.

This has made it really hard to get a true handle on his thoughts and not what we see now.

Luther followed Biel's writings which had a lot to do with His thoughts and actions during the Reformation. Don't know too much about Johann Tauler and how He influenced Luther thoughts if any.

Because of Biel and maybe a few others, Luther and major problems with freeing himself from the RCC's long tentacles.


Blade


1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

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