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Author Topic: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity  (Read 2846 times)

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Grace_Accepted

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Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« on: February 14, 2019, 11:16:39 pm »
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.  This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.
.
Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 09:33:24 pm by patrick jane »

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patrick jane

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 10:40:39 am »
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.  This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.
.
Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
Great study approach. Back in the day my Grandma would write notes in her Bible with cross references, concordance and her interpretations. I still have some of her Bibles and she was really in the spirit all her life. She taught me about Revelation starting when I was 4 or 5. I do the things you listed above, most of them, but I have written only pages of verses and what they're about. I have filled many pages but I put them all to the side when they fill up and they are just in a pile somewhere.

So basically, I do the studies in my head as I read and absorb scripture. I could and should study and read more and I always plan to. My memory isn't as good anymore either so I stay in the scriptures online. Most of my study has been in Paul's epistles for the last 5 years. That makes the OT easier for me to understand. I love Jesus' words the most though.

Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 06:43:49 pm »
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.  This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.
.
Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
Great study approach. Back in the day my Grandma would write notes in her Bible with cross references, concordance and her interpretations. I still have some of her Bibles and she was really in the spirit all her life. She taught me about Revelation starting when I was 4 or 5. I do the things you listed above, most of them, but I have written only pages of verses and what they're about. I have filled many pages but I put them all to the side when they fill up and they are just in a pile somewhere.

So basically, I do the studies in my head as I read and absorb scripture. I could and should study and read more and I always plan to. My memory isn't as good anymore either so I stay in the scriptures online. Most of my study has been in Paul's epistles for the last 5 years. That makes the OT easier for me to understand. I love Jesus' words the most though.

Your Grandmother knew how to enable complete call back when needed.

The Truth statements are ok for testing context but the best way is to let the Holy Spirit within you, teach you.   LISTEN to HIM!

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 10:47:29 pm »
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

But my dear friend Grace_Accepted, Jesus was Not 'God incarnate' and there is just no way you can make that a rational Bible teaching. It is clear that it was not God, but Gods son who was "sent into the world", which is the basis of the whole NT writings, .. especially John.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
.. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


God, the Father of Word sent him, and it was the "Word that became flesh", not God.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life


Can't get any more clearer than that

Quote from: Grace_Accepted
We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.

The Word, not God. It was Gods son Word who was sent from Heaven, and Not Jesus. Once we allow these seemingly minute changes to take hold in our minds, it leads to one of the most critical errors in understanding God. Just as the Fiery Angel of the Lord that spoke to Moses was not God, nor Moses was God, the same way Gods son Word was Not God. In all cases God was "manifesting" Himself through these different beings.

Manifest
verb
1. display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.
"Jesus manifested attributes of his Father God"
synonyms:
display, show, exhibit, demonstrate, betray, present, evince, reveal, indicate, make plain, express, declare

Quote
This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

1 pet3er 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
.. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Quote
This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.

Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.

If Infinite and Eternal could die, then He is NOT Infinite and Eternal. Only a created being could die, and the son Word was the "first of all Gods creations, this is why he is also referred to as "The First and the Last".

Yes my dear Christian friend, you are so close, but it does not go with what we read from the Bible, .. which is that "God sent His son Word (John 3:16) who became flesh (John 1:14) and died for us all.
This has nothing to do with what God is able to do as far as raising His son from the dead, even the Apostles were given that authority. This has to do with one of the Adams paying off the sin of the other.
Just as one Adam sinned and the whole world was now condemned, the same way one Adam remained sinless, and sacrificed for all mankind.

Jesus kept the whole law, this made him the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish. God would never keep a perfect man who kept all the commandments in death, so hell could not keep him, .. Satan had nothing on him.

But

because he took all our sins, God turned the other way and let him die. He died for OUR sins, took them to the grave with him, but he himself was faultless, so God, not breaking His commandments raised him. NOT because Jesus was God, but because he was found worthy.
This is why if we confess that Jesus was the son of God, and believe that it was he alone who took our sins to the grave, we too shall be raised from death into everlasting life. This is Scriptural and true.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

But what happens to billions of Christians who make the son of God Word aka Jesus out to be some sun-god, or part of a conspiracy doctrine that turns God/Infinite into a mortal, and kill Him?
Here is a Warning to us all:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the holy one, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?


Jesus was not God, nor one of the Christian gods that make up the idea of God, not Infinite who can become finite mortal and die,  but the son Word who became flesh, and took our sins to the grave, and because death cannot reign in a holy and just man, so God raised him, leaving all our sins in the grave, buried and forgotten. So this Trinity denies God our Infinite and Eternal Creator by making the mortal Jesus a god and anyone who does this is:

22 He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Arius
Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, and since Infinite is borderless, you can't have any other gods besides Him.

God did not die, His son Word did, for you and for me, because - John 3:16

God is not a being, but the Ground of being - Tillich

patrick jane

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 12:09:06 am »
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2019, 10:17:21 pm »
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Yes, it became flesh but retained the divinity of God.  There are a number of reasons this was necessary.  But let us first examine one argument at a time or we will become bogged down.

Jesus was God because the Word was God and we know that the Word was Jesus because the attributes of the Word match the Attributes of Christ, and verse 14 says as much.  The Jews of Christ's day definitely took offense with Jesus several time, understanding him to be claiming deity and he never corrected them.
 He accepted prayer, worship, forgave sins and gave life to the dead. Lastly we have it spelled out in Rev 19:13 that indeed he is the Word of God.

In order to make Christ out not to be divine one must rely on the false dilemma logical fallacy.  In the end, I think that all people who relay on adhere to and believe in Jesus will be saved regardless of their beliefs in this matter.

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2019, 11:00:04 pm »
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Yes, it became flesh but retained the divinity of God.  There are a number of reasons this was necessary.  But let us first examine one argument at a time or we will become bogged down.

Jesus was God because the Word was God and we know that the Word was Jesus because the attributes of the Word match the Attributes of Christ, and verse 14 says as much.  The Jews of Christ's day definitely took offense with Jesus several time, understanding him to be claiming deity and he never corrected them.
 He accepted prayer, worship, forgave sins and gave life to the dead. Lastly we have it spelled out in Rev 19:13 that indeed he is the Word of God.

In order to make Christ out not to be divine one must rely on the false dilemma logical fallacy.  In the end, I think that all people who relay on adhere to and believe in Jesus will be saved regardless of their beliefs in this matter.
Yes, I don't condemn people for not believing in the trinity. It's above my pay grade and I don't think God sends people to hell for being wrong or not understanding completely.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2019, 11:25:04 am »
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Matthew 14:26-33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 25:17-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ~ See prophecies about God being the only saviour

Luke 19:43-44 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3-4 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.








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Arius

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2019, 03:37:21 pm »
Brother @patrick jane
I can't get the buttons to work, like the bold, italic, underline, strike, so I have to type it out myself expl; [t] [/t]. Also I didn't get notifications on some posts, like this important one: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity

Can you please look into it, or tell me what I have turned off for it not working and not getting some notifications?

Love you Bro!


Arius/Evidence


P.S.

Gods willing I will go through this last post you made, and hopefully you will carefully consider my responses, they are not new, but I have been studying, and listening to replies from Christian Scholars to Pastors, Ministers from Catholic to 7DA, to Mormons, to JW's and so on .. you name it over the past 25 years. So my responses have been tested by many intelligent Bible believers and even atheists who know the Bible. Not the ones who just bash it ignorantly, you know the type!?
Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, and since Infinite is borderless, you can't have any other gods besides Him.

God did not die, His son Word did, for you and for me, because - John 3:16

God is not a being, but the Ground of being - Tillich

Arius

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2019, 07:40:10 pm »
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

God is Spirit, and no one has seen God at any time, because like our mind/spirit cannot be seen

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Now think about this question: When through the Angel of the Lord, in a bush that looked like it was on fire, God appeared to Moses, and throughout the 40 year of the Israelites wondering the desert, would you say: "God was with Israel", .. or that "God was with us" as in Moses, in their presence all the time with a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night?

How about later in the Ark, would you say "God was with us" in the Ark?
And now, God sent His son Word, became flesh and dwelt amongst us, who "revealed God His Father and our Father, his God and our God to us, so yes, he fulfilled Emanuel/God with us, .. but he was NOT God, just as Moses was not God, nor the Fiery Angel of the Lord was not God, nor the Ark of the Covenant was not God, and finally the only begotten son Word who never said he was God, yet in all of them we can say "God was with us".

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Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.


Ask yourself; "the next time Moses sees the Fiery Angel of the Lord in Heaven, will he bow down and worship him"?

But the son Word we are commanded to worship, because of what he did fulfilling God, that is his Gods request to save the world. God deified him as a god, just as Moses, and just as Joseph was worshipped because Pharaoh put him above everyone else in his Kingdom because of what he did. Pharaohs were worshipped as gods, and in the absence of Pharaoh, Joseph was a god, and people, including his brothers who left him for dead bowed down (as was the custom to give honor to kings and Pharaohs by bowing before them in respect)
In Heaven we will see Gods presence, His brilliance which is far brighter than the sun, but we cannot actually "see" God.

Next to Him, to Gods right hand side we shall actually see the Glorified Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords. Not a God, but as his glorified self.

God remains Infinite/Spirit, and to actually "see" an image, it has to be "created and finite", which is who the son Word aka Jesus Christ is. We are warned not to make a graven image of God, and making the created son Word as an image of God would be idolatry.

I know, he is the perfect image of God, just as we are to live our lives as images of God, as if God was living in us. The Ark was another image of God, the Fiery Angel of the Lord yet another, but we would not bow down to any of them as if they were God, .. but God in them.

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Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Yes, the son has power to forgive sins, because he is the perfect image of God and God gave him that authority, .. but he is Not God, or any 1/3 part of God, which would actually make God 2/3 created; the son + the Holy spirit 2/3 that the Trinity god is made of, and these were created, and can never be part of Infinite and Eternal.

Deuteronomy 5:8
‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;


There are hundreds of references Not-To make an image to identify God with, .. and anything and everyone who has been created is an image. As far as us, or Angels or the son Word/Jesus Christ radiating God through us, so people can see God in us is what God wants.

So let's not make God something we can accept, but we are to make ourselves a reflection of God; "God in us".

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Matthew 14:26-33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Again, what we don't read is: "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art God!"

But you see, that is how the Christian church made us read into all these verses, like; "Before Abraham was, I am" It does not say "I Am God" like it does in Exodus with Moses as God was talking through the Fiery Angel of the Lord.

Look up everywhere that God appears to anyone in whatever form He chooses, and you will see that "No One Ever doubts" if they are in the presence of God or not, not one. Jacob even wrestled with a man who he KNEW was God, and he made sure he acknowledge it. Read it for yourself.

But Jesus, they did as they pleased, and to make Jesus God, well, according to the Bible that's blasphemous. Because God would loose all respect, .. especially spit in the face of God, my Lord, forgive the Trinitarian Christians for they know not what they're talking about. And on top of that to claim to kill God, .. saying: "God died"!? Absolute blasphemy from those who invented this Doctrine. Not for us ignorant dumbed down sheep who were worshipping a Doctrine instead of God, and this while believing we were flying through space on a paper globe!

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Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Yes, son, as we are supposed to be: "Sons and children of the Living God" not God-Sons, or God Children, aka God.

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Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Again, who? Not God, but the son of man aka Jesus Christ sitting on the right hand of Power, capital 'P'. Funny how they always capitalize the word "son", but they forget who the Power is!?

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Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Yes, God told us to "worship the son", just as the Pharaoh told the people to worship Joseph. Believe me, if Jesus was God, NO ONE would doubt him, no one! They'd be pooping bricks in His presence, lying face first in the dirt as dead men.

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Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Exactly, .. "given power". But who could give power to God? Does Infinite and Eternal Almighty God need to be "given power in Heaven and in earth"? He would not be God who lacks power over all of His creation, right?

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Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

God does not sit to the right hand of no one, but the son does.

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Matthew 25:17-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Again, who? Does it say; "when God comes in His glory"?
Is there a time when God was without His Glory, where someone had to "glorify Him"? Only God can Glorify Himself, and He does sadly because there are not enough of us to glorify Him. This is why God so delighted in His son, because he fulfilled all Gods expectations, which glorifies God.

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Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ~ See prophecies about God being the only savior

Yes, all praise goes to God. The whole purpose of the son coming into the world is to let us see God through him. Don't forget who sent the son into the world. God did not send God into the world, no one "sends" God anywhere.

When someone falls overboard a ship and you throw a lifejacket to him, who is the savior, .. you, or the lifejacket?

When you hire a contractor to build you your house, who actually built it?

Or like this; I know many Contractors who built many houses, and never lifted a hammer, or put one nail into the house, yet he took me around to show me all the "houses he built". Then the Investor who he built them for, also shown the same houses that "he built", .. right? So who is the main builder? Is it the carpenters sawing and nailing the wood, or the Contractor making sure they got all the materials, and that they finish on time, or the Investor who hired the Contractor to build him all them houses every year?

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Luke 19:43-44 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem -

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Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

No One Appoints God a Kingdom.
So once again we have to ask: "Who is this talking about?"

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I have gone into great lengths to explain this in many threads, these are the verses that opened my eyes to the non-trinitary nature of God, and who exactly is his son!?
Please look at it again with an open mind, who is this talking about, is it God, or His son Word? It starts with: "in the beginning", so we know it's not about God for God is both Infinite and Eternal, has no beginning nor end. If God had a beginning we would have to explain "infinite regress", like "who was before God?" and so on.

Look my Brother, let's read it with the Trinity blinders on, it would read: "In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God.
Since it says "in the beginning, we know it is talking about Gods son, who Is the beginning and the end of all creation that God creates through and for. God has no need, so it's all for, and by the son Word.

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John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The only begotten son Word became flesh, was named Jesus.

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John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Again, who claimed this, did God, or the evil Jews?
It was the evil Jews, the Pharisees who were trying to find anything they could use against him, even made up "false acusations against him" and this was just another false accusation:

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


Where did Jesus say "I Am God" .. or "I Am equal/same as God"? Never, not once, and here was his answer:

John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Really, if he was God, you think God would say: "the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner". You will never find God getting authority, or permission from someone else, never. Or refer to Himself in the third person like someone with multiple personality disorder, right?

- to be continued -


Arius.
Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, and since Infinite is borderless, you can't have any other gods besides Him.

God did not die, His son Word did, for you and for me, because - John 3:16

God is not a being, but the Ground of being - Tillich

Arius

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2019, 10:25:16 pm »
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Yes, it became flesh but retained the divinity of God.  There are a number of reasons this was necessary.  But let us first examine one argument at a time or we will become bogged down.

Thank you @Grace_Accepted, I wasn't getting notifications on this thread.
A divine god is one who's been deified/Apotheosis like Pharaohs, or like the Queen of heaven Mary, or Odin, these are deities. No One deifies God, for He Is both Infinite and Eternal Spirit that no one can see, just as our spirit/mind cannot be seen.

God did deify Moses and now Jesus and raised him above all Principalities and Powers, but no one raises God, for not only is He Infinite and Eternal (and I don't mean like the ones who live in, or for an eternity, or one that travels through infinity) but Infinite and Eternal IS God.

Infinite is conscious, this is why He told Moses he was "I Am", to show that He exists as Himself a Conscious Spirit/Mind.

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Jesus was God because the Word was God and we know that the Word was Jesus because the attributes of the Word match the Attributes of Christ, and verse 14 says as much.

We can also say: "Eve was Adam", correct? Because that's what she was before Adam beget her with Gods doing of course. Wo-man or from man, as was the Word begotten of God, or from God. So of course the Word was God, before he was begotten of God.
But if we go with that, then so were we God, for before any creation, there was "I Am" God Infinite and Eternal.

And who became flesh? Does it say: "And God became flesh?"
No, it clearly says "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt amongst us" and was named Jesus. God can take on any form at any time, but He can never become flesh as His son Word did.

I mean you do believe what the Bible says, don't you?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Was God begotten of the Father? It does not make sense, but accepting it as it is written, it makes perfect sense: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

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The Jews of Christ's day definitely took offense with Jesus several time, understanding him to be claiming deity and he never corrected them.

Oh that's Trinity Propaganda claiming that he; "never corrected them", .. of course he did, just read the chapter and you see him correcting them. And right in there you will also find why the Jews were making up accusations, because they were trying to find a reason to kill him. He NEVER claimed equality with God his Father, never! Please read it again? You may want to read my response to my Brother @patrick jane above on the same quote.

Jews said: "You make yourself equal with God, .. KILL HIM, KILL HIM!"
Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing, combining other books): "No I didn't, I said I was the son of God, and here I am trying to bring Gods children, yes, that would be you Jews, whom God so loved that He sent me to you to hopefully bring you back to Him as His children, you prodigal sons and daughters back to God! I take no authority to what I say, whatever it is comes from my Father, who is my God as He is yours!"

But you see the Trinitarians want to take the Jews side, that as if they were right by accusing Jesus of blasphemy for saying he was the son of God. Then who are they if not claiming to be the sons of God?

Here is Jesus painting a picture of the Jews, exactly how it was going to happen:

Mark 12:2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers.
3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated.
5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some.

6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those vinedressers said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard.


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He accepted prayer, worship, forgave sins and gave life to the dead. Lastly we have it spelled out in Rev 19:13 that indeed he is the Word of God.

Yes, son Word, Gods only begotten son's name is Word. He was the first thing, who God also made into a being that God created, and through him He created all things John 1:1-14. and This is why he is called the "First and the Last". God/Infinite has no beginning nor end.

Also, God gave authority to Jesus just as Jesus gave authority to his Apostles, .. but neither Jesus or the Apostles were God.

John 20:23  (NKJV)
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Matthew 10:8  (NKJV)
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


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In order to make Christ out not to be divine one must rely on the false dilemma logical fallacy.

Yes, I heard all the "fallacy"excuses to turn Jesus into God, so they could enjoy the make-believe that not only did they kill the Jewish King Jesus, but that they killed their God too. This is why the RCC Christians carry around the big idol of "Jesus bleeding and suffering on the cross", only the poor sheep are too ignorant to see it.
Also is why the Romans have at the Eucharist eating the actual flesh of Jesus, and drinking his real blood, a Satanic practice that is going on today, as well as what has been going on for millennia. Another thing that poor Catholic sheep take no notice of, cannibalism in the Christian church.

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In the end, I think that all people who relay on adhere to and believe in Jesus will be saved regardless of their beliefs in this matter.

If those "real" (Eucharist) blood drinking, human flesh eating, blasphemers of God by making Him their sun-god, and creating an idol of the mutilated bleeding, disfigured, dying body of Jesus back on the cross hanging there front of the whole congregation, and claiming that they killed God Christians will be saved too, then hell will be a very quiet and lonely place for Satan and his angels I can tell you that much!

But yes, that is a common Protestant belief, that God will save the whole world, no matter which entity/god/spirit they believe in, as Billy Graham and many other Mason-Christians said over the years; "unknowingly, they all worship God!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MZWug3QAvs



Arius
Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, and since Infinite is borderless, you can't have any other gods besides Him.

God did not die, His son Word did, for you and for me, because - John 3:16

God is not a being, but the Ground of being - Tillich

patrick jane

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2019, 11:39:09 pm »
Brother @patrick jane
I can't get the buttons to work, like the bold, italic, underline, strike, so I have to type it out myself expl; [t] [/t]. Also I didn't get notifications on some posts, like this important one: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity

Can you please look into it, or tell me what I have turned off for it not working and not getting some notifications?

Love you Bro!


Arius/Evidence


P.S.

Gods willing I will go through this last post you made, and hopefully you will carefully consider my responses, they are not new, but I have been studying, and listening to replies from Christian Scholars to Pastors, Ministers from Catholic to 7DA, to Mormons, to JW's and so on .. you name it over the past 25 years. So my responses have been tested by many intelligent Bible believers and even atheists who know the Bible. Not the ones who just bash it ignorantly, you know the type!?
I'm sorry brother, we don't get notifications on this forum except for the new posts on the right. Do you see those? To use the bold and Underline and colors etc., just highlight what you want to bold and then hit the bold button. Same with all of them. In the second row to the left, the firstone is for images and the second one for videos to INSERT the url in between the bb codes. Do you get it?
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Arius

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Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2019, 02:15:29 am »
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, .. pick one, because Jesus made it clear who his God was. I choose the God and Father of Jesus.

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John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Yes he was, for he is the first and the last, so the son Word was way before creation of man on the earth, way before Abraham was, since God created all things through him and for him.

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John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As we all should be one with the Father, that was the son Words whole purpose for coming.
Right now Satan has us so split up, that the only way we'd come together is with his doctrine which is the original creation of Christianity, mainly; Roman Catholic Christian, with its foundation in the divined Trinity Doctrine.

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John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

A lie that the Jews made up to find an excuse to kill him.

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John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

And we as followers of Christ, the son of God Word do believe, and strive to have the Father in us also.

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John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And who is the Father? It is God, so Jesus is the gate to God. It doesn't say: "No one comes to Me, but by Me".

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John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Oh how true that is, because Jesus is the closest any of us will ever come to actually "seeing" the invisible Infinite and Eternal Spirit/God, is His physical son Word. And because we have heard and read what God commanded him to speak, we who have not seen the Physical Jesus can also see God through the words he spoke. We are truly blessed, because we no longer depend on sight, but faith in the word of God.

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

John 20:29  (NKJV)
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


.. because God is invisible Spirit/Mind, to truly see/know God is through His spoken word, which we find in the Bible as revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

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John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Exactly, .. God revealed Himself through His son Word aka now Jesus Christ. God did not reveal Himself through Himself because God is Spirit and no one has ever seen God.

John 1:18  (NKJV)
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [a]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


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John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

That explains it all, but this doesn't mean we are God, or make up who God Is.

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John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

.. when he was in Heaven with God his Father, when God created both the Heaven and the Earth with, by and through him.

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John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Finally Thomas "seen God" in Christ, unlike most of the other Jews Christ came for.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


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John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

the world may believe that thou hast sent me So are we to believe that God sent God?

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"

Are we also going to be added into some doctrine that make up the idea of God like the Mormons, for they believe they are all gods who together make up the idea of "God" like the Trinity does?

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2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Can't get any more clearer than that, For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and by this Christian Trinity Doctrine the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them!

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2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If Christ was God, then who was in whom? Was God in God, and God died to redeem us? I wouldn't worship a God who the Jews and the Romans could humiliate and murder, would any of you?
Remember God was in Moses, He was in the Fiery Angel of the Lord, in the Ark of the Covenant, none of them are mentioned in the Trinity? The Only reason they chose Jesus and not the Angel of Fire that appeared to Moses is because they seen that they could kill Jesus, not knowing that it is the very reason he came for. If they knew, they would not have killed him, not that they wouldn't want to, but because by Not killing him he could not have fulfilled the Prophesies, and the world would have no savior.

But now it's too late, so Satan changed plans, this time he attacks the Bible by confiscating it and twisting the message, making up doctrines of lies, and by making humanity believe that God died, which opened up the Bible to tens of thousands of interpretations, all under Satan's flag: His doctrine of the Three gods in one, where he made our One and Only Infinite and Eternal God, a threesome, plural, many.

to be continued

God bless you my Brother in Christ


Arius.

P.S.
maybe I already mentioned this, but did you know that Isaak Newton, who was made as the inventor of gravity actually was a follower of Arianism, friend of Arius, a non-Trinitarian?

Maybe not even a Christian!? I have to search more.
Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, and since Infinite is borderless, you can't have any other gods besides Him.

God did not die, His son Word did, for you and for me, because - John 3:16

God is not a being, but the Ground of being - Tillich
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