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CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY with BLADERUNNER, LORI BOLINGER and BILLY EVMUR => Theology With Lori Bolinger (CLICK HERE) => Topic started by: Lori Bolinger on July 04, 2020, 12:22:30 pm

Title: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on July 04, 2020, 12:22:30 pm
I don't like to start a new thread on Sat. since I take Sun. off but the topic came up on another thread so I thought I would go ahead.



Some years ago, I started reading a book, it was talking about all the possible meaning for what Gen. literally says.  For example, how long is a day?  Is it a 24 hour day? The span of daylight?  etc.  It isn't until day 4 that God gives us a way to measure a day.



As I understand a literal reading of scripture accepts that we don't know the length of the day that is recorded in scripture and yet most people who call themselves literalists claim that it is a 24 hour day...period, end of the discussion.



Another great example is that of the flood, we know that a literal understanding tells us that the only life that survived were those on the ark but it says nothing about a worldwide flood, what if life was not dispersed around the world at that time in history?  Would it then have to be a worldwide flood? or just a huge flood that was local to the life that existed at that time?



So lets talk about what being a literalist really means and what we try to turn it into.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 04, 2020, 03:10:41 pm
I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 05, 2020, 05:09:59 pm
I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is mos literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.

Since the Bible was authored by GOD, we read it literally, Historically, grammatically and syntheically.  You Mark take it a step further and read from it applications to you sheeps lives.

As far as Lori comments about the Bible, they are just fine. The Bible is specific in that the Woman is not to take place in the CHURCH's administration/leadership teaching of men..during sanctioned church functions which were at that time mostly on the Sabbath.

I see no problem in women teaching, discussing outside the above parameters. The only thing I do see is a problem is the Women who want to do away with GOD's WORD as they seem to take offense at its words...This is dangerous territory for some to take such a hard stand against GOD's Word.

Blade
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 05, 2020, 10:05:53 pm
See thats my problem Blade, is I have doubts that the words are God's any longer.  I never doubt the GODs word but there is some discernment that needs used.  I have an 1895 KJV a 1947 KJV a 1966 KJV and one bought in the last year.   Every single one has had a disclaimer that there has been changes made because never information has been discovered.   Major passages have been changed but the changing of words.

This bothers me when you take it literally as you see it in the latest version.  This happens in every single version whether it is a KJV, ESV or any other. 

As for Lori, I love the fact she is here, I love that she teaches, I have learned from her and her writings.  I am just trying to make the point that while we need to be literal with GOD's words, we need to use some discernment in how the wordsmiths have made changes and if it has altered what God wants us to know and to live by.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 05, 2020, 10:34:12 pm
See thats my problem Blade, is I have doubts that the words are God's any longer.  I never doubt the GODs word but there is some discernment that needs used.  I have an 1895 KJV a 1947 KJV a 1966 KJV and one bought in the last year.   Every single one has had a disclaimer that there has been changes made because never information has been discovered.   Major passages have been changed but the changing of words.

This bothers me when you take it literally as you see it in the latest version.  This happens in every single version whether it is a KJV, ESV or any other. 

As for Lori, I love the fact she is here, I love that she teaches, I have learned from her and her writings.  I am just trying to make the point that while we need to be literal with GOD's words, we need to use some discernment in how the wordsmiths have made changes and if it has altered what God wants us to know and to live by.

Mark will have to check out this editions to the King James....Have not noticed it before...I do know that the copyright is for the notes/study guides of the book. Maybe the page introductions.

The Authorized version of the King James is open to all.   not to change.

If those words have been changed in the KING James, as they have in many other versions, then I agree with you. One will be hard to understand what God's words were. However, if they have not changed?

I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

What does yours KJV Read?:

Blade

Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 06, 2020, 12:01:14 am
I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

My 1979 version of KJV is the same

My 1949 copy

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God manifested in human flesh, justified was he in the Spirit,  seen was he by angels, proclaimed was he by all nation, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed on in the world, received up was he into glory

My 1943 version of KJV by dad carried in WWII parallels your version.  I think the difference is the 1949 is a protestant Alter bible used in a church.

My baptismal gift Bible from 1966 different by just a little

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh: justified in Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, proclaimed on in the world, received up into glory.

My favorite as I think it is more eloquent and closer to the original Greek it would have been written in, this is from my great grandfather Bible of 1883.

And without conflict great is the mystery of holiness, manifest in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up into Glory.

I do not have issues as the true word of God based on what is said is not altered but the words used to say it seem to alter as our language use of the language has changed.
 
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on July 06, 2020, 09:31:18 am
I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
I would love to hear your thoughts on woman and the church, but alas another topic...you are right on the money for my way of thinking about culture and should be part of our understanding when studying. I think and I see it more and more, a lot of people claim literal understanding while reading their traditions into the text which is a problem and is NOT what literalist should mean.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on July 06, 2020, 09:55:16 am
See thats my problem Blade, is I have doubts that the words are God's any longer.  I never doubt the GODs word but there is some discernment that needs used.  I have an 1895 KJV a 1947 KJV a 1966 KJV and one bought in the last year.   Every single one has had a disclaimer that there has been changes made because never information has been discovered.   Major passages have been changed but the changing of words.

This bothers me when you take it literally as you see it in the latest version.  This happens in every single version whether it is a KJV, ESV or any other. 

As for Lori, I love the fact she is here, I love that she teaches, I have learned from her and her writings.  I am just trying to make the point that while we need to be literal with GOD's words, we need to use some discernment in how the wordsmiths have made changes and if it has altered what God wants us to know and to live by.
This is at least one of the reasons why God commands us to study, not just read wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 06, 2020, 01:52:48 pm
I totally agree.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 06, 2020, 08:08:24 pm
I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

My 1979 version of KJV is the same

My 1949 copy

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God manifested in human flesh, justified was he in the Spirit,  seen was he by angels, proclaimed was he by all nation, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed on in the world, received up was he into glory

My 1943 version of KJV by dad carried in WWII parallels your version.  I think the difference is the 1949 is a protestant Alter bible used in a church.

My baptismal gift Bible from 1966 different by just a little

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh: justified in Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, proclaimed on in the world, received up into glory.

My favorite as I think it is more eloquent and closer to the original Greek it would have been written in, this is from my great grandfather Bible of 1883.

And without conflict great is the mystery of holiness, manifest in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up into Glory.

I do not have issues as the true word of God based on what is said is not altered but the words used to say it seem to alter as our language use of the language has changed.

and these are King James authorized editions?? Who is the editor of your version?  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ????

Blade
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 06, 2020, 08:13:59 pm
Yes, they are all authorized edition by various publishers.   Now you understand why I struggle with just the words.  Worse yet none of this matches the oldest existing Greek text of 1 Timothy that is considered the authoritative version. 

The upside is that for me at least is the true meaning of the word of God divinely inspired was not lost.

Again this is just my humble opinion.

Oh, I would never use a latter-day saints text for anything.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 06, 2020, 08:33:51 pm
I have 1 tim 3:16 that reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

My 1979 version of KJV is the same

My 1949 copy

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God manifested in human flesh, justified was he in the Spirit,  seen was he by angels, proclaimed was he by all nation, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed on in the world, received up was he into glory

My 1943 version of KJV by dad carried in WWII parallels your version.  I think the difference is the 1949 is a protestant Alter bible used in a church.

My baptismal gift Bible from 1966 different by just a little

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh: justified in Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, proclaimed on in the world, received up into glory.

My favorite as I think it is more eloquent and closer to the original Greek it would have been written in, this is from my great grandfather Bible of 1883.

And without conflict great is the mystery of holiness, manifest in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up into Glory.

I do not have issues as the true word of God based on what is said is not altered but the words used to say it seem to alter as our language use of the language has changed.

and these are King James authorized editions?? Who is the editor of your version?  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ????

Blade

I might add that the only 1949 KJ Bible I can find is the Service Book of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

I use the 1792 Edition of the Authorized version...If it is not the Authorised version, I fear rampant changing of words.

Please check these verses out tosee what the 1949 copy says.

John 6:47.."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Most of these verses in other versions than the KJV state.."truly, truly, I say unto you, he who believes has eternal life"     WHO is he believing in...it is left out....

The 1 tim 3:16...with the NIV version (the most popular bible in the USA) states.."Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit,[fn] was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

Who is he...certainly not GOD,,maybe a man.....If He is Jesus then His deity is removed.   Compare this with your other Bibles...

I have Bibles that go back to my grandparents and they are Authorized KING JAMES "Edition" (NOT Versions).

They are all in complete agreement. as was your 1972 Edition....and your Dad's 1943 Edition......

Again all I can find for the 1949 version is it used as the Service Book of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

Mark: we cannot change the WORD of GOD because we are living differently....we are suppose to live by it not make it say how we live. I know you know this and am simply discussing this problem.

The KJV made from the Textus Receptus, 5600 manuscripts, pieces of various Papyri at the time and the westminister Leningrad codex and not the flawed trinity of the Alexander Codicies.

Blade

Blade
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 06, 2020, 08:37:04 pm
I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
I would love to hear your thoughts on woman and the church, but alas another topic...you are right on the money for my way of thinking about culture and should be part of our understanding when studying. I think and I see it more and more, a lot of people claim literal understanding while reading their traditions into the text which is a problem and is NOT what literalist should mean.

There are many versions out there that do just that Lori: add present day culture to the verses of the Bible.... We are to live by the verses, not change them to say how we are living and that it is OK.. there is a difference.

Blade
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 06, 2020, 09:01:31 pm
I am not in any disagreement with what you are saying.  How you approach the editions of the Bible and scriptures is wonderful and works for you.  It does not completely work for me.  I want to make sure I do have the divinely inspired word of God and not some wordsmith that change a word or misunderstood so tried to fix something and it ended up in an authorized Edition.   That is just me.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 06, 2020, 09:48:28 pm
I am not in any disagreement with what you are saying.  How you approach the editions of the Bible and scriptures is wonderful and works for you.  It does not completely work for me.  I want to make sure I do have the divinely inspired word of God and not some wordsmith that change a word or misunderstood so tried to fix something and it ended up in an authorized Edition.   That is just me.

oops, had to revise that as I reread your reply.   It is my understanding that other versions of the Bible change regularly. To my knowledge, the AKJEdition has not changed since 1611 with the exception of the 1792 edition where it changed from the Ole English translation to the New English. When I have a problem or a question about either the AKJ Edition or other versions, I use the Textus receptus or the Leningrad Codex to find out... I like you think it is very important that I not lead people to a false gospel...I might as well quite.  It is that important. In fact, I pray to GOD each day, that He prevent me from leading anyone astray with what I say about Him and His Word. I hope this makes sense? I am not a preacher who has a gift of words but rather a teacher that teaches what the Bible says , Literally, Historically, grammatically and synthetically.


Blade
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 06, 2020, 11:39:57 pm
I am not in any disagreement with what you are saying.  How you approach the editions of the Bible and scriptures is wonderful and works for you.  It does not completely work for me.  I want to make sure I do have the divinely inspired word of God and not some wordsmith that change a word or misunderstood so tried to fix something and it ended up in an authorized Edition.   That is just me.

oops, had to revise that as I reread your reply.   It is my understanding that other versions of the Bible change regularly. To my knowledge, the AKJEdition has not changed since 1611 with the exception of the 1792 edition where it changed from the Ole English translation to the New English. When I have a problem or a question about either the AKJ Edition or other versions, I use the Textus receptus or the Leningrad Codex to find out... I like you think it is very important that I not lead people to a false gospel...I might as well quite.  It is that important. In fact, I pray to GOD each day, that He prevent me from leading anyone astray with what I say about Him and His Word. I hope this makes sense? I am not a preacher who has a gift of words but rather a teacher that teaches what the Bible says , Literally, Historically, grammatically and synthetically.


Blade

Mark, thought I would just chat for as bit....I recently received a 2016 edition of a King James Study Bible...It has all the bells and whistles but it has something that most Bibles including a lot of the King James Authorized Edition especially the newer editions do not have. This is the Epistle to King James from the translators of the 1611 Edition. I have this Epistle and will make a copy here even though it is windy and somewhat long...It is worth reading. Here I have pasted the first paragraph. Notice the majestic wording of the Kings English.

  EPISTLE AND DEDICATORIE
To the most high and mightie Prince, James by the grace of God
King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, &c.
The translators of The Bible, wish Grace, Mercie, and Peace, through Jesus
Christ our Lord.
Great and manifold were the blessings (most dread Soveraigne) which
Almighty GOD, the Father of all Mercies, bestowed upon us the people of
ENGLAND, when first he sent your Majesties Royall person to rule and
raigne over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not
well unto our ZION, that upon the setting of that bright Occidentall Starre
Queene ELIZABETH of most happy memory, some thicke and palpable
cloudes of darkenesse would so have overshadowed this land, that men
should have bene in doubt which way they were to walke, and that it should
hardly be knowen, who was to direct the unsetled State: the appearance of
your MAJESTIE, as of the Sunne in his strength, instantly dispelled those
supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected,
exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the government
established in your HIGHNESSE, and your hopefull Seed, by an undoubted
Title, and this also accompanied with Peace and tranquillitie, at home and
abroad.                                                                                                                               
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on July 07, 2020, 06:52:43 am
I struggle with literalism when it comes to scriptures.  My issue is mainly I have no idea what the author's time really was and in what context they wrote and meant it in.  They can have a huge bearing on what they really meant and not what we think the literal meaning is.

If we took the scriptures literal, PJ would have to remove everything from you Lori as the bible makes it clear that the bible can only be used and interpreted by men as only men could be chosen for such.  That is the second problem is most literalist only take the parts they are comfortable with or believe in literally.  I do not believe that is you, but I know many that way.

Of course, as always, these are just my humble opinions.
I would love to hear your thoughts on woman and the church, but alas another topic...you are right on the money for my way of thinking about culture and should be part of our understanding when studying. I think and I see it more and more, a lot of people claim literal understanding while reading their traditions into the text which is a problem and is NOT what literalist should mean.

There are many versions out there that do just that Lori: add present day culture to the verses of the Bible.... We are to live by the verses, not change them to say how we are living and that it is OK.. there is a difference.

Blade
I wish I had a confused emoji...I am not saying we should apply the present-day culture to the verse to understand it's meaning...I am saying we should understand what it meant to the culture of the people that were being talked to and in that we can understand the teaching and apply it to our present-day lives.
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on July 07, 2020, 10:55:35 am
Well said Lori.  That is why you are a teacher
Title: Re: What does it mean to read scripture as a literalist?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on July 07, 2020, 11:25:26 am
Well said Lori.  That is why you are a teacher
Honestly, I don't try to teach and I would venture to say that I learn more than I end up teaching anyone.