Patrick Jane Forums | Anthropology - Theology - Conspiracy

Theology, Anthropology & Archaeology => Theology With Lori Bolinger (CLICK HERE) => Topic started by: Lori Bolinger on April 11, 2020, 08:27:52 am

Title: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 11, 2020, 08:27:52 am
I'm looking into the symbolism of the tabernacle/temple...how do you think the people knew what the cherubim looked like that they were to fashion so much of the tabernacle from? What does this tell us about the relationship between God and the cherubim?
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on April 11, 2020, 08:35:18 am
I'm looking into the symbolism of the tabernacle/temple...how do you think the people knew what the cherubim looked like that they were to fashion so much of the tabernacle from? What does this tell us about the relationship between God and the cherubim?

Look at all of the images that come up in a search in 2020
Click Here Lori on this link
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS829US829&sxsrf=ALeKk03H7xanrbq4Bgf_bzi2IqVs7sB4Uw:1586611834129&q=cherubim+images&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6tZPWveDoAhUCWK0KHQrtAMQQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=929&bih=900


(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i-sjqRROBvc/maxresdefault.jpg)


Ezekiel depiction - Vision
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/42/f6/13/42f613a6dc8e61cc455e23e3deb4abd9.jpg)
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 11, 2020, 10:38:47 am
Right, but the israelites that were building the tabernacle didn't have access to all of the internet drawings and depictions...the instructions given by God didn't even describe what they looked like, so how would they have known what they looked like?  Were cherubim common sightings in those days?  If so why the change to no sightings today?
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Ted T. on April 11, 2020, 11:07:55 am
 They were spiritually aware people in touch with the Holy Spirit. Since cherbum et al are spirit beings, not corporeal, all physical descriptions are physical expressions of their spiritual attributes which may very well vary with each viewer.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 11, 2020, 11:27:43 am
Yes-- the saw spiritual beings in the spiritual realm-- that is, in visions or dreams.

I will share a recent dream I had from a week or so ago... that I shared with a friend.  Cherubim?

I saw the strangest things I have ever seen.  They were winged birds that could hover like hummingbirds moving in any direction.
They were big—bigger than humans, but with human faces—like with big human heads where the bird head should have been.
I guess these were -angels?  -of a sort?  Harvesters?—As they had come for some of my family members- to take them away.
I don’t recall it all, but I wept at the thought of them taking my brothers and sisters—I think there were 4 of these creatures.
As the first two took away one each, I wept and said something about at least not all would be gone, and then I was told that there
would be multiple trips.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on April 11, 2020, 11:38:16 am
Yes-- the saw spiritual beings in the spiritual realm-- that is, in visions or dreams.

I will share a recent dream I had from a week or so ago... that I shared with a friend.  Cherubim?

I saw the strangest things I have ever seen.  They were winged birds that could hover like hummingbirds moving in any direction.
They were big—bigger than humans, but with human faces—like with big human heads where the bird head should have been.
I guess these were -angels?  -of a sort?  Harvesters?—As they had come for some of my family members- to take them away.
I don’t recall it all, but I wept at the thought of them taking my brothers and sisters—I think there were 4 of these creatures.
As the first two took away one each, I wept and said something about at least not all would be gone, and then I was told that there
would be multiple trips.
Interesting, brother. How old are you Mr E? I think I posted in one of your other threads a few days ago, but alas, you never see my posts. I'm just "ribbing" ya.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 11, 2020, 12:05:25 pm
There are several peculiarities of this site that I'm having trouble navigating.  Not meant as a criticism- just my observations and personal challenges.

When you click on a person's name, instead of it bringing up any kind of profile, it brings up an IP address and such.  There is no way (that I've discovered) for example for me to see all the posts you've posted lately.  I'd have to notice the thread to respond to it and I don't seem to know how to navigate content to discover this.  One of the features I like on the other site is the notification system that flags when anyone has responded to any thread you've posted in or otherwise quoted something you've said.  Are any of these features available here?  Are they here and I'm missing them?  Profiles? Notifications?

I turned fifty-two years ago.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 11, 2020, 07:14:53 pm
Yes-- the saw spiritual beings in the spiritual realm-- that is, in visions or dreams.

I will share a recent dream I had from a week or so ago... that I shared with a friend.  Cherubim?

I saw the strangest things I have ever seen.  They were winged birds that could hover like hummingbirds moving in any direction.
They were big—bigger than humans, but with human faces—like with big human heads where the bird head should have been.
I guess these were -angels?  -of a sort?  Harvesters?—As they had come for some of my family members- to take them away.
I don’t recall it all, but I wept at the thought of them taking my brothers and sisters—I think there were 4 of these creatures.
As the first two took away one each, I wept and said something about at least not all would be gone, and then I was told that there
would be multiple trips.
Interesting, brother. How old are you Mr E? I think I posted in one of your other threads a few days ago, but alas, you never see my posts. I'm just "ribbing" ya.

I think maybe these were demons of Satan.....instead of Cherubs..... which are higher angels of authority. Lucifer was as Cherub as seen Ezk 28:12-19

Blade
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 13, 2020, 08:19:06 am
Blade sort of made the point I was going to make but somehow this morning I can't find some of the buttons for reply.

So the question is this...if it was all through vision, how did they all have the same vision that Joe down the road didn't come along and say, "nope, in my dream, the cherubim looked like this..." and Sally walked into the tabernacle and said, "nope you got it wrong, God told me in a dream that they looked like this..." etc.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on April 13, 2020, 09:04:40 am
There are several peculiarities of this site that I'm having trouble navigating.  Not meant as a criticism- just my observations and personal challenges.

When you click on a person's name, instead of it bringing up any kind of profile, it brings up an IP address and such.  There is no way (that I've discovered) for example for me to see all the posts you've posted lately.  I'd have to notice the thread to respond to it and I don't seem to know how to navigate content to discover this.  One of the features I like on the other site is the notification system that flags when anyone has responded to any thread you've posted in or otherwise quoted something you've said.  Are any of these features available here?  Are they here and I'm missing them?  Profiles? Notifications?

I turned fifty-two years ago.
I'm sorry about the navigation as it is an older type forum. All new posts will be on the right side and will have the orange flag to indicate a new post. When you get used to using the Forum button on the top left you will know which threads are active and also the newest posts appear at the top of the list of threads. Confusing but you will get used to it soon. No, there are no alerts for a reply to your posts.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 13, 2020, 11:21:46 am
Blade sort of made the point I was going to make but somehow this morning I can't find some of the buttons for reply.

So the question is this...if it was all through vision, how did they all have the same vision that Joe down the road didn't come along and say, "nope, in my dream, the cherubim looked like this..." and Sally walked into the tabernacle and said, "nope you got it wrong, God told me in a dream that they looked like this..." etc.

Because God gave the dreams.  And God isn't at all confused regarding what cherubim might look like. So... if God were to allow you to make a copy, He would give you the understanding required to do so.

OR... you could ask dakk, but he might say---

https://youtu.be/SSVDZ0MySk8
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 13, 2020, 07:09:46 pm
Blade sort of made the point I was going to make but somehow this morning I can't find some of the buttons for reply.

So the question is this...if it was all through vision, how did they all have the same vision that Joe down the road didn't come along and say, "nope, in my dream, the cherubim looked like this..." and Sally walked into the tabernacle and said, "nope you got it wrong, God told me in a dream that they looked like this..." etc.

Because God gave the dreams.  And God isn't at all confused regarding what cherubim might look like. So... if God were to allow you to make a copy, He would give you the understanding required to do so.

OR... you could ask dakk, but he might say---

https://youtu.be/SSVDZ0MySk8
I was using GOD's authority to describe the a cherub..only He knows exactly what they look like. As in:
Gen 3:24.."So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims1, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Satan was a cherub2and was probably over the cherubim like Michael was over the Lord's army of angels as an archangel.

Blade



1. Oh, excuse the one of the 200 errors of the KJV...Cherubim is already plural. It did not need the "s".
2. Eze 28:14.."Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 14, 2020, 07:18:28 am
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in order for there to be no debate over it.  Look how much debate there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they know which version or vision to use?  Did the people of that day see cherubim?  did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he was an artist?  was it a miracle that God just came down and gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers alike?  How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the gold?
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 14, 2020, 09:34:28 am
You are investigating a mystery that exists only because you insist it does.

Even if you've never been to a water park-  if I went to one and then described to you in detail what I had experienced you could gain enough understanding of water parks yourself to know what they are like.  And then if you ever had the chance to see one for yourself-- you'd immediately know it when you saw it.... ahhhh..... a water park....

But you are familiar with water parks because you've already seen them, or been to them, or heard about them already, right?

How about if I tell about a cave of wonders I explored in Carlsbad and the things I saw there, or the Joshua trees and strange landscape near where I had a house in the desert?  If I tell you about the things I saw in Peru, or in Rome--- some of these things you've never heard about and maybe you have never seen, but if I were to describe them to you and if you were willing to believe the words I say to you, then you could understand and 'get a picture' at least of what I'm describing.

The cherubim on the ark those creatures depict something.  They are models or copies of something.  They are an artists' rendering of something... but what is that something.  Ezekiel's vision is often referred to the chariot of fire-- or the chariot of God.  What these things we loosely call cherubim do is what we would associate with any winged thing.  They fly.  They swiftly move from one place to another.  They hover. They transport.  They carry.

Of the ark itself it is written that He stands atop the cherub wings-- that it is as the place He rests his feet... this isn't literal.  It speaks of a spiritual concept that being when the Spirit of God (which is His Word) is manifest on Earth, it is carried, transported, delivered by such as this chariot.  Carried on the wings of cherubim. 

I don't expect you to accept it because you are entrenched in your own ideas, like so many others... but there it is, and it is there-- if you take the time to read it just as it is written through out scripture by David, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, and certainly Enoch.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 14, 2020, 03:15:24 pm
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in order for there to be no debate over it.  Look how much debate there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they know which version or vision to use?  Did the people of that day see cherubim?  did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he was an artist?  was it a miracle that God just came down and gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers alike?  How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the gold?

we will only really know when we get to Heaven. All questions will have the answers.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 15, 2020, 07:28:59 am
You are investigating a mystery that exists only because you insist it does.

Even if you've never been to a water park-  if I went to one and then described to you in detail what I had experienced you could gain enough understanding of water parks yourself to know what they are like.  And then if you ever had the chance to see one for yourself-- you'd immediately know it when you saw it.... ahhhh..... a water park....

But you are familiar with water parks because you've already seen them, or been to them, or heard about them already, right?

How about if I tell about a cave of wonders I explored in Carlsbad and the things I saw there, or the Joshua trees and strange landscape near where I had a house in the desert?  If I tell you about the things I saw in Peru, or in Rome--- some of these things you've never heard about and maybe you have never seen, but if I were to describe them to you and if you were willing to believe the words I say to you, then you could understand and 'get a picture' at least of what I'm describing.

The cherubim on the ark those creatures depict something.  They are models or copies of something.  They are an artists' rendering of something... but what is that something.  Ezekiel's vision is often referred to the chariot of fire-- or the chariot of God.  What these things we loosely call cherubim do is what we would associate with any winged thing.  They fly.  They swiftly move from one place to another.  They hover. They transport.  They carry.

Of the ark itself it is written that He stands atop the cherub wings-- that it is as the place He rests his feet... this isn't literal.  It speaks of a spiritual concept that being when the Spirit of God (which is His Word) is manifest on Earth, it is carried, transported, delivered by such as this chariot.  Carried on the wings of cherubim. 

I don't expect you to accept it because you are entrenched in your own ideas, like so many others... but there it is, and it is there-- if you take the time to read it just as it is written through out scripture by David, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, and certainly Enoch.
Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange, I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.  2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own way.  Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 15, 2020, 07:29:46 am
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in order for there to be no debate over it.  Look how much debate there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they know which version or vision to use?  Did the people of that day see cherubim?  did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he was an artist?  was it a miracle that God just came down and gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers alike?  How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the gold?

we will only really know when we get to Heaven. All questions will have the answers.
true enough but an interesting topic nonetheless
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 15, 2020, 10:31:10 am

Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange, I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.  2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own way.  Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
[/quote]

No.

What you state is not what I believe.  Unless I say it as you state it, don't state that I said it.  Deal?

If you want to quote what I say, by all means- quote it.  But don't use your own words and ideas and then attribute to me, and I will do exactly the same for you.

Yes, the tabernacle Moses built was a real tent and it was made exactly to the specs that Moses was given and told to make it, just as the ark was made in exactly the manner that it was intended.  These were physical things made in the likeness of spiritual things.  You say- literal, and symbolic... yes- I prefer to say literal and conceptual. The difference is relatively subtle.  I'll give you an example-

If I present to you an image-- it can remind you of something else in that it is 'symbolic' of that something else, but the conceptual meaning can be much broader and deeper than the symbolism alone hearkens to.

Here's an image--- symbolically- what?


(https://i.etsystatic.com/12265857/r/il/780f53/895927212/il_794xN.895927212_qt1m.jpg)



Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 15, 2020, 10:53:43 am

Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange, I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.  2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own way.  Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that angels were still revealing themselves as necessary

No.

What you state is not what I believe.  Unless I say it as you state it, don't state that I said it.  Deal?

If you want to quote what I say, by all means- quote it.  But don't use your own words and ideas and then attribute to me, and I will do exactly the same for you.

Yes, the tabernacle Moses built was a real tent and it was made exactly to the specs that Moses was given and told to make it, just as the ark was made in exactly the manner that it was intended.  These were physical things made in the likeness of spiritual things.  You say- literal, and symbolic... yes- I prefer to say literal and conceptual. The difference is relatively subtle.  I'll give you an example-

If I present to you an image-- it can remind you of something else in that it is 'symbolic' of that something else, but the conceptual meaning can be much broader and deeper than the symbolism alone hearkens to.

Here's an image--- symbolically- what?


(https://i.etsystatic.com/12265857/r/il/780f53/895927212/il_794xN.895927212_qt1m.jpg)
[/quote]I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.

Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer scriptures understanding.

So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim looked like.

One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes  it hard to believe what scripture says.  As I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim could have been real.  That being said, I believe that many things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often times both.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 15, 2020, 11:27:33 am


I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.

Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer scriptures understanding.

So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim looked like.

One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes  it hard to believe what scripture says.  As I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim could have been real.  That being said, I believe that many things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often times both.
[/quote]

I bolded what you say you believe above--

Yes, but not 'sometimes'  --- always.  There is always a duality of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we were made.

The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.

The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on.  To a person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His presence.  They don't recognize the greater concept, which expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical expression of where He conceptually places His feet.  It's a much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.

As for literal?  Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.  In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more again, than a symbol-- of you.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 16, 2020, 06:05:06 am
I bolded what you say you believe above--

Yes, but not 'sometimes'  --- always.  There is always a duality of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we were made.[/quote] I have to disagree here....the parables for example do NOT have a literal understanding just a spiritual one.
Quote


The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.

The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on.  To a person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His presence.  They don't recognize the greater concept, which expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical expression of where He conceptually places His feet.  It's a much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.
I have a problem accepting what I THINK YOU ARE SAYING HERE in that God gave specific instructions and told Moses that those instructions were to be followed exactly.  Yet there is no detailed description of the cherubim not to mention that they were not only to make three dimensional cherubim on the ark but two dimensional woven cherubim as well.  If there was not detail of what they looked like, then just putting wings on the curtains and on the ark would not seem like enough to claim following the instructions exactly.
Quote

As for literal?  Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.  In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more again, than a symbol-- of you.
of course no "building" can contain the Living God but that isn't the discussion which might be why I confused your previous post where you claimed by posting that you were talking about the OP question but no apparently you wanted to change the topic.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 16, 2020, 06:31:10 am


I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.

Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer scriptures understanding.

So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim looked like.

One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes  it hard to believe what scripture says.  As I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim could have been real.  That being said, I believe that many things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often times both.

I bolded what you say you believe above--

Yes, but not 'sometimes'  --- always.  There is always a duality of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we were made.

The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.

The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on.  To a person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His presence.  They don't recognize the greater concept, which expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical expression of where He conceptually places His feet.  It's a much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.

As for literal?  Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.  In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more again, than a symbol-- of you.
[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 16, 2020, 10:39:25 am


[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
[/quote]

The quote feature in your post went awry, but in response to the comment above-- yes, this is true however the way you might think of it has this conceptual duality that I harp on about...

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....

The testimony-- which came to Moses and was written down on two stone tablets was the Word of God-- which is spirit, not physical.  The tablets of stone were physical of course, but just representative of the Word (testimony) and therein the presence of God- with - us  --   This is the same way that the Word came to us not on tablets of stone, but in the flesh-- in the body of Jesus -- the testimony once again delivered to men via the Spirit of God.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 16, 2020, 10:59:09 am


btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
[/quote]

The quote feature in your post went awry, but in response to the comment above-- yes, this is true however the way you might think of it has this conceptual duality that I harp on about...

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....

The testimony-- which came to Moses and was written down on two stone tablets was the Word of God-- which is spirit, not physical.  The tablets of stone were physical of course, but just representative of the Word (testimony) and therein the presence of God- with - us  --   This is the same way that the Word came to us not on tablets of stone, but in the flesh-- in the body of Jesus -- the testimony once again delivered to men via the Spirit of God.
[/quote]if you do NOT see the difference between an image and a text, i don't know how to help you.  The question is not about whether or not they were given instructions nor if the cherubim were real figures, or if they had another meaning, or any number of other things I could glean from your texts that you want to change the topic to...the question is how they knew what cherubim looked like given that God did not give detail descriptions of the cherubim.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 16, 2020, 03:25:09 pm
Okay Lori--

It's obvious that you don't want a discussion or any particular insight that one could offer, rather you are seeking someone to affirm your own ideas.  Good luck in your search for affirmation.

I've explained half a dozen times that Moses would know what he was looking at because he saw with his own eyes (vision) in spirit what a cherub looked like and he interacted with them (in spirit).  How he communicated what they looked like to another-- to a sculptor, or carver (who we are told were also inspired by God to do the work)...... who cares?  Only you it seems, because you want someone to tell you exactly what you want to hear?

And David, and then Solomon worked with what they already had... the ark that Moses had made.

Carry on.... sans moi
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 17, 2020, 06:56:37 am
Interesting take on who I am and what I believe since I already adjusted my thoughts and opinions on what others have contributed...not sure how changing my mind based on what others have said is me wanting affirmation but okay, it is what it is....

Also, I already told you that it is kind of important when someone says that the nephilim make it hard to take the bible seriously.  If the nephilim are fallen cherubim which is one prominent theory, then if Moses generation actually knew what the cherubim looked like then it would NOT be far fetched to assume they also knew about nephilim which means that you just showed someone who was questioning the accuracy of scripture that it is believable.

Now, do you want to talk about symbolism, I am still working on it, but we can change the topic before I'm ready to if you really insist.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 20, 2020, 10:43:23 am
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this article http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm

I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I think about it beyond interesting.  I'm still studying and praying over what i have found.

Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’ day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were representations of flying creatures which did exist on this planet, at some time.)

We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures (pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip – compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5 metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)

Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel 22:11 and Psalms 18:10.

The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have looked like.

A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.) What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings. Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as “front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like grip-organs.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 20, 2020, 10:46:01 am
In relation to the symbolism of the Cherubim I found Ezekiel 10 especially interesting...in my visual mind I read this and see the cherubim kind of like (different but kind of like) those who carry the liter of a King or Queen through the streets.  Attendants that raise the real King of kings high so that His glory can be seen.  What a beautiful picture of the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords. 
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 20, 2020, 07:10:36 pm
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this article http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm

I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I think about it beyond interesting.  I'm still studying and praying over what i have found.

Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’ day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were representations of flying creatures which did exist on this planet, at some time.)

We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures (pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip – compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5 metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)

Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel 22:11 and Psalms 18:10.

The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have looked like.

A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.) What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings. Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as “front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like grip-organs.

interesting you comparing Satan with a winged dinosaur.

Blade
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 20, 2020, 10:26:33 pm
Follow some logic...  an exercise.

Angels (including cherubim) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

If you are inclined to say "both"  -- resist the temptation.

If you can't resist the temptation and insist on saying that angels are both spiritual and physical.... then:

Humans (including you and me) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

Now, likely EVERYONE will say we are both spiritual and physical.

.....and if you did, then good--- you recognize duality. 

So let's circle back to the original proposal concerning angels--- does it affect how you look at angels?

As humans-- what is our spiritual nature?  We are flesh and spirit....

Where does the spirit part come from? 

As angels--- they are spirit and flesh...

Where does the flesh part come from?
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 21, 2020, 07:19:58 am
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this article http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm

I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I think about it beyond interesting.  I'm still studying and praying over what i have found.

Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’ day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were representations of flying creatures which did exist on this planet, at some time.)

We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures (pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip – compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5 metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)

Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel 22:11 and Psalms 18:10.

The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have looked like.

A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.) What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings. Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as “front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like grip-organs.

interesting you comparing Satan with a winged dinosaur.

Blade
wait, what?  So now cherubim are satan?  How?  I don't get it...a whole bunch of satan's (especially since there is only one satan) holding up the throne of sapphire and carrying along God's voice with their wings, not to mention calling God holy....how do you even make that work in your mind?
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 21, 2020, 07:23:58 am
Follow some logic...  an exercise.

Angels (including cherubim) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

If you are inclined to say "both"  -- resist the temptation.

If you can't resist the temptation and insist on saying that angels are both spiritual and physical.... then:

Humans (including you and me) are:

A.  Spiritual beings
B.  Physical beings

Now, likely EVERYONE will say we are both spiritual and physical.

.....and if you did, then good--- you recognize duality. 

So let's circle back to the original proposal concerning angels--- does it affect how you look at angels?

As humans-- what is our spiritual nature?  We are flesh and spirit....

Where does the spirit part come from? 

As angels--- they are spirit and flesh...

Where does the flesh part come from?
Apparently you and I are talking about two different "physical and spiritual" beings since I never once said that I believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that they are real creatures.  i see nothing in scripture to suggest that they are not real living beings.  Are they flesh, obviously not since that goes against what the scripture says about them.  Are they real living beings?  Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths....truths some seem to be missing.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Mr E on April 21, 2020, 10:46:20 am
Lori--you are all over the map on this.  The one thing you haven't done is say what you actually think.  A couple of posts back you were entertaining the idea that cherub bones had been found, that looked like pteredactyls or some such nonsense.  You've insisted, or certainly implied that you believe that cherubim were among the people to the extent that people were familiar with them because they interacted, and that is why no description or design was needed for the gold-covered carvings on the ark of the covenant.  This, you contend without ever saying what you believe regarding their nature, so I ask-- spiritual beings, or physical beings?

It's a simple question and I didn't even limit you to picking one or the other.

You'll have to explain this>>> "I never once said that I believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that they are real creatures."

What do you mean by 'not flesh', rather 'physical in nature meaning real creatures' ?

That's what flesh means... it means physical creatures.

And "real living beings" applies to both living physical beings as well as living spiritual beings.

If I understand you then-- you believe that they are NOT flesh (not physical) and that they are real living (spiritual) beings.  Do I have you correctly?  You could have provided that by marking "B" on my original question concerning the nature of angels.

Let's skip the human nature question for a moment and hit on the last bit...

IF as you say, angels are only spiritual beings, then there is no 'flesh part' and they are created by God as spirit only, then as messengers from God to mankind they travel in spirit, and appear only in spirit. 

The image of them, that Moses had made would have had to have been either given to him as design, or it was based on his own idea of what they looked like-- which was either given to him, or which he had seen himself in spirit (that is in such as a vision of these spiritual beings)

But then you completely contradict yourself by saying>>>> "Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths."


You say--- "are they flesh?  -obviously not, since that goes against what scripture says about them"

Then you say--- "Are they real living beings?  Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths..."


So what distinction is it that you are making between the following?  Please define:

A. Flesh
B. Physical beings
C. Living beings
D. Spiritual beings

This will help us get on the same page.  Also if you could reference the scriptures you say that determine they are not flesh, and also the ones that say they are physical beings.

Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on April 21, 2020, 11:22:03 am
Angels can manifest physically and nephilim are physical beings who have evil spirits I believe, who knows?
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on April 21, 2020, 11:42:25 am
Lori--you are all over the map on this.  The one thing you haven't done is say what you actually think.
oiy vey....I have been clear about what I believe....you must not be reading it very well.
Quote
  A couple of posts back you were entertaining the idea that cherub bones had been found, that looked like pteredactyls or some such nonsense.
lol...actually what I said was that I found the article interesting and didn't know what to make of their assertions....
Quote
  You've insisted, or certainly implied that you believe that cherubim were among the people to the extent that people were familiar with them because they interacted, and that is why no description or design was needed for the gold-covered carvings on the ark of the covenant.
yes, I believe that the generation of Moses must have seen cherubim...it would explain how they all knew what cherubim looked like as well as explaining why a detailed description was not given 

The discussion (keeping context is important to reading comprehension) was whether they were real beings or symbolic only...to which I replied that they were physical beings in that they exist literally but that they are also there to teach us something spiritual...not sure why you can't figure that out.
Quote

It's a simple question and I didn't even limit you to picking one or the other.

You'll have to explain this>>> "I never once said that I believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that they are real creatures."

What do you mean by 'not flesh', rather 'physical in nature meaning real creatures' ?
not sure how I can explain it any clearer....I do Not believe that cherubim as flesh and blood like man is, but I do believe they are literal beings...a good example comes straight out of scripture and the resurrected Christ...He was NoT flesh and blood in the resurrected body but He was a being none the less.  Same principle applies to what I am and have been saying to you this whole time....why can't you understand it?
Quote


That's what flesh means... it means physical creatures.

And "real living beings" applies to both living physical beings as well as living spiritual beings.

If I understand you then-- you believe that they are NOT flesh (not physical) and that they are real living (spiritual) beings.  Do I have you correctly?  You could have provided that by marking "B" on my original question concerning the nature of angels.
no you don't have me right but you didn't even try to respond to my clarification so that would be a good reason why you don't understand.
Quote


Let's skip the human nature question for a moment and hit on the last bit...

IF as you say, angels are only spiritual beings, then there is no 'flesh part' and they are created by God as spirit only, then as messengers from God to mankind they travel in spirit, and appear only in spirit. 
so instead of talking about cherubim, you now want to change the discussion to what a spirit looks like....this is largely the problem, you keep changing the topic without warning.

I will say the same thing I told someone else long ago.  WE do NOT know what a spirit "looks" like but we do know that in scripture, physical descriptions are given for that which is spirit, for example, God is spirit and yet there are descriptions of Him and even His clothes...does that mean that spirit looks like air?  probably not but it also doesn't tell us what spirit looks like.
Quote


The image of them, that Moses had made would have had to have been either given to him as design, or it was based on his own idea of what they looked like-- which was either given to him, or which he had seen himself in spirit (that is in such as a vision of these spiritual beings)

But then you completely contradict yourself by saying>>>> "Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths."
if you don't think we can learn anything from the symbollism of the cherubim I don't know what to tell you, that is what parables do and they are all over scripture.
Quote


You say--- "are they flesh?  -obviously not, since that goes against what scripture says about them"

Then you say--- "Are they real living beings?  Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual truths..."


So what distinction is it that you are making between the following?  Please define:

A. Flesh
B. Physical beings
C. Living beings
D. Spiritual beings

This will help us get on the same page.  Also if you could reference the scriptures you say that determine they are not flesh, and also the ones that say they are physical beings.
Like i said, cherubim are not flesh and blood like man is but they are literal beings with spiritual purpose...not sure how I can be any clearer.
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on May 19, 2020, 02:53:58 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZvPPZfY4s&list=WL&index=30&t=0s
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on June 01, 2020, 07:29:02 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMV26_yrHvM&list=WL&index=34&t=0s
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on June 12, 2020, 10:25:41 am
(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/117713.jpg?w=940)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/june-web-only/michael-heiser-angels-demons-unseen-realm.html







The Truth About Angels and Demons Is Staring Us in the Face









Michael Heiser’s books cut through the myths and legends surrounding these supernatural beings.


M. Night Shyamalan’s film The Sixth Sense catapulted the director to overnight stardom. Most people who saw the film will never forget the shock they felt when the trick ending was revealed and they were forced to reassess the meaning of each and every scene they had just witnessed. In the flash of an eye, it became a very different movie, far richer and far stranger than they had first imagined.

If I may leap from the secular to the sacred, from pop culture to inspired Scripture, I suppose the two travelers on the road to Emmaus must have felt the same way when Jesus opened up the Old Testament to them (Luke 24:27). So, they must have thought to themselves, that’s what Moses really meant—and David and Isaiah and Ezekiel and Daniel! How could we have missed it when the truth was staring us in the face all these years?

It is as if the viewers of the film and the travelers to Emmaus were trying to put together a thousand-piece puzzle without having been shown a picture of what the finished puzzle looks like. Only when the director of the film, or the gospel, revealed that picture were they able to use it as a key for assembling the pieces into a coherent image and narrative. I felt something of that sense of revelation when I happened upon Michael Heiser’s book The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, first published in 2015.

Heiser, who holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic languages and is the executive director of the School of Theology at Celebration Church in Jacksonville, Florida, has devoted his career to expanding the horizons of Bible-believing Christians who have never known what to make of Scripture’s frequent references to “gods” and “sons of God.” Using Psalm 82 as his starting point, Heiser argues that God chose to work through a divine council of supernatural beings whom he created and over whom he holds full sovereignty. He intended for his council to also include human representatives who would meet at Eden, itself a nexus point between heaven and earth.

But man, tempted by a rebellious member of the council, sinned and lost Eden. Things devolved further when a series of supernatural beings assumed bodies and mated with human women to produce a race of giants, the Nephilim (Gen. 6:1–4). The evil of this race furthered the wickedness of men and led to the Flood, but even that event did not put an end to human and divine wickedness. The campaign to build the Tower of Babel showed that evil and rebellion were still rampant among men and gods alike.

As a result of that rebellion, God portioned the land and turned over those portions to the control of supernatural members of his council (Deut. 32:8–9), leaving Israel for himself as a remaining plot of holy land to be inhabited by the descendants of Abraham, whom he called for that purpose. But the supernatural guardians of those portions turned, one by one, to evil, causing God to judge and curse them, as recorded in Psalm 82. Worse yet, the descendants of Abraham turned to evil and began to worship the rebellious gods of the other nations, causing God to exile them to Babylon, the very land where the Tower of Babel had been built.

Angelic Ministry
Since the publication of The Unseen Realm, Heiser has continued to flesh out the supernatural worldview of the Bible with two recent books on the nature, origin, and functions of angels and demons. Cutting through the myths and legends that have surrounded these divine beings, Heiser allows us to see them through the eyes of the writers of the Old and New Testament as well as the Jewish and Greek writers who lived in the intertestamental period.

Although Heiser presents his case and offers his conclusions in an accessible manner, his points are backed up by a mountain of textual, historical, anthropological, and linguistic research. Indeed, one of Heiser’s great strengths is taking findings from esoteric, highly academic papers and helping ordinary, non-specialist readers understand their relevance for interpreting the Bible and seeing the overall shape of God’s work in human history.

In his 2018 book Angels: What the Bible Really Says About God’s Heavenly Host, Heiser explains that message-bearing (what the word angel means in Greek) marks only one of the many functions performed by the supernatural, non-physical beings that God created. Angels also act as ministers of God’s will, watchers who are ever vigilant, soldiers in God’s heavenly host (or army), interpreters to men of God’s messages, protectors of God’s holiness, executors of God’s divine judgment, and members of God’s council who participate in and bear witness to God’s sovereign decisions and decrees.

Heiser presents a dynamic picture of God holding session with his divine council, but he also lays down biblical limits for angelic authority and advice. One of the best examples in Scripture of God convening his council is 1 Kings 22:19–23, when he asks how the wicked king Ahab might be defeated. After performing a close analysis on the passage, Heiser concludes that the “text presents us with a clear instance where God has sovereignly decided to act but allows his lesser, intelligent servants to participate in how his decision is carried out. God wasn’t searching for ideas, as though he couldn’t conceive of a plan. He allowed those who serve him the latitude to propose options.”

In his overview of the study of angels between the period of Exile and the ministry of Christ, Heiser marshals his prodigious research to dispel two popular myths. First, he demonstrates that Second Temple Jewish writers, including the translators of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) and the Qumran community that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, did not eliminate the language of angels as sons of god out of a fear of promoting polytheism. Their writing shows quite the opposite: a clear understanding that Yahweh is the only God but that he is surrounded by a divine council of supernatural beings who are often called gods. Second, he shows that the Dead Sea Scrolls do not embody a dualistic vision of good and evil as equal and opposite forces, but of angelic warfare between beings created by the omnipotent and always-benevolent Yahweh.

Whereas the Old Testament speaks of the angel of the Lord carrying out the judgment of God, the New Testament, written after God became man, no longer mentions the Angel of the Lord—because judgment has been “entrusted” to Christ (John 5:22). Angels are described as exacting God’s vengeance in the apocalyptic book of Revelation, but in the rest of the New Testament, they are usually seen as ministering to believers.

Some have argued that Christ’s death on the cross redeemed fallen angels as well as fallen human beings, Heiser refutes this theory, making it clear that “the sacrifice of Jesus does not help angels. It helps believers—the children of Abraham by faith.”

Demonic Rebellion
In his most recent book, Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness, Heiser takes up the story of those fallen angels whom even the death of Christ could not redeem. The book dispels the myth, popularized in John Milton’s classic poem Paradise Lost, of a single rebellion against God led by Satan before the world was created, a myth that has little actual scriptural support. Instead, Heiser defines demons, or evil spirits, as “members of God’s heavenly host who have chosen to rebel against his will.” Rather than taking place once, as it does in Paradise Lost, this rebellion (as noted earlier in this review) took different forms at different times: the serpent in Eden, the sons of God who slept with the daughters of men, and the disobedient sons of god Yahweh put in charge of the nations after the Tower of Babel.

Still, despite their rebellion, the evil spirits continued to be spirits living in a spiritual realm. As Heiser observes, “Their rebellion did not mean they were no longer part of that world or that they became something other than what they were. They are still spiritual beings. Rather, rebellion affected (and still characterizes) their disposition toward, and relationship to, Yahweh.” As for the demons described in the Old Testament, Heiser explains that some are “associated with the realm of the dead and its inhabitants,” some are linked to specific geographical locations opposed to God’s rule, and some are “preternatural creatures associated with idolatry and unholy ground.”

Regarding the third kind, Heiser notes that, while in theory any ground “not occupied by the presence of God” could be considered unholy, all places outside Jerusalem were not therefore places of spiritual danger. Nevertheless, Heiser writes, “forbidding, uninhabitable places in lands associated with other gods were unholy in the sense of sinister and evil. This was especially true of the desert wilderness, whether literal or used metaphorically to describe places ravaged by divine judgment.” It was into that wilderness that the scapegoat was sent on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16), a wilderness quite literally viewed as a locus of “a cosmic struggle involving the spiritual world.” Many modern readers, even if they believe in biblical inerrancy, will find these themes unsettling, but they are attested to in the Old Testament, carried forward into the Second Temple period after Israel’s exile, and glimpsed in the exorcisms performed by Jesus in the New Testament.

What Heiser has to say about Satan will be familiar to many, but perhaps not his argument that the demons who seek to tempt, subvert, and possess human beings were believed to have their origin in the hybrid Nephilim that were born to the sons of god and daughters of men. When those Nephilim died, Heiser claims, their disembodied spirits became demons. Another unfamiliar theme concerns the origin of the cosmic, political-territorial spiritual warfare we discover in the Bible. Heiser says it began not in a primeval rebellion by Satan and his minions, but instead when “the sons of god [to whom God had apportioned the nations] transgressed Yahweh’s desire for earthly order and just rule of his human imagers, sowing chaos in the nations.”

But we need not fear, Heiser assures us; after Christ defeated the power of Satan, he opened the way to a reclamation of the demon-controlled nations. This reclamation took place at Pentecost (Acts 2), when the gospel was carried to all those lands previously ruled by the rebellious sons of god. Good Friday, Easter, and Pentecost together healed the division begun by Babel, making it possible for the Gentiles to free themselves from false gods and embrace Jesus as Lord.

Breaking Down the Darkness
Though many readers might trip over the technical aspects of Angels and Demons, with their lengthy charts and heavy emphasis on the parsing of Hebrew and Greek terms, Heiser keeps things moving and skillfully sums up his main points. I do wish, however, that he had been more sympathetic to modern spiritual-warfare advocates who share Heiser’s concept of cosmic strife that includes a strong territorial element. Though I agree with Heiser that the fallen sons of god were disinherited by the Cross, the Resurrection, and the spreading of the gospel, it’s hard to deny that certain areas of the globe remain immersed in spiritual darkness.

Spiritual-warfare advocates have located just such an area in a rectangle that stretches from the 10th to the 40th latitude north of the equator. This “10/40 window,” as missions strategists sometimes call it, encompasses North Africa, the Middle East, China, Pakistan, and India. Given that the vast majority of unreached people groups live in this window and that persecution of the church is strongest there, it does not seem unreasonable to suggest that a territorial reign of evil (or stronghold) exists in that area of the globe, and that intense prayer on the part of believers may help break down demonic communication.

I believe Heiser’s books can inspire that needed movement of prayer just as they have illuminated the full meaning and extent of spiritual warfare in the pages of God’s Word.




Louis Markos is professor in English and scholar in residence at Houston Baptist University and holds the Robert H. Ray Chair in Humanities. His books include Heaven and Hell: Visions of the Afterlife in the Western Poetic Tradition (Cascade Books).
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on July 15, 2020, 12:49:43 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZKzig3Ho3Q
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on July 31, 2020, 12:52:00 pm
If you don't think the videos I have posted in this thread actually belong in this thread, then you haven't listened to them.

11 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYdv9e9xyNY
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on August 29, 2020, 10:17:22 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yhlfU-HPBY
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: Bladerunner on August 29, 2020, 11:02:27 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yhlfU-HPBY

I like the story about Elisha and the surrounding armies...There is another. Balaam and his donkey. It appears the donkey could see the "Angel of the Lord" on the other side of the bridge. Balaam could not until his eyes were opened..

Blade
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on August 31, 2020, 09:00:45 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjh1OPxH6hg
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on September 01, 2020, 09:23:29 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTgbfdgqACM
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on October 02, 2020, 12:07:08 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTgbfdgqACM
Very good
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on October 16, 2020, 09:00:50 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SwoBqUxr_w
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on October 21, 2020, 10:21:43 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CznRCSIkJhk
Title: Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
Post by: patrick jane on October 24, 2020, 01:09:21 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqhpZOXpM4