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CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY with BLADERUNNER, LORI BOLINGER and BILLY EVMUR => EVANGELISM & THEOLOGY by BILLY EVMUR => Topic started by: Billy Evmur on April 03, 2020, 06:07:59 am

Title: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on April 03, 2020, 06:07:59 am
The first thing to do is to distinguish the Great Tribulation from the Wrath of God. Paul teaches that we are clean escaped from the wrath of God, nobody gets left behind in the Rapture, that is a bunch of nonsense, we have been bought with the precious blood of Jesus.
[/size]
[/size]But says Paul "through great tribulation must we be saved" he says this in relation to the persecution he and his fellow apostles were undergoing along with the Thessalonians.
[/size]
[/size]Tribulation is persecution and comes from man, the Great Tribulation is the great end-time persecution which Jesus warned about saying "you will be hated by all men for My name's sake."
[/size]
[/size]The persecutor will be Antichrist, the beast.
[/size]
[/size]Why am I sure that the church will go through the Great Tribulation?
[/size]
[/size]It's very simple, since the source of the tribulation is Antichrist, all must take his number or perish, but His career is ended when Jesus returns. As soon as he seats himself in the temple declaring that he himself is God the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and slay him with the breath of His mouth.
[/size]
[/size]But Antichrist will have had his career, opposing every thing called god. His mission will have been to stamp out all religion.
[/size]
[/size]The church is taken out at that time [what is left of it] Paul says "we who are left and remain" I dunno that just seems to indicate to me not very many. Jesus asks "but when the Son of man returns will He find faith on earth?"
[/size]
[/size]Then comes the wrath of God upon the unbelieving world.
[/size]
[/size]I believe many will be saved, we read of Enoch that he walked with God and was not for God took him. This is the first rapture recorded in the bible and thereafter "men began to call upon the Lord."
[/size]
[/size]The wicked who remain will flee to the end of the earth. The Millennium reign will be rolled out from Jerusalem, although His appearance is sudden and a worldwide event.
[/size]

Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 03, 2020, 07:05:02 am
The first thing to do is to distinguish the Great Tribulation from the Wrath of God. Paul teaches that we are clean escaped from the wrath of God, nobody gets left behind in the Rapture, that is a bunch of nonsense, we have been bought with the precious blood of Jesus.
[/size]
[/size]But says Paul "through great tribulation must we be saved" he says this in relation to the persecution he and his fellow apostles were undergoing along with the Thessalonians.
[/size]
[/size]Tribulation is persecution and comes from man, the Great Tribulation is the great end-time persecution which Jesus warned about saying "you will be hated by all men for My name's sake."
[/size]
[/size]The persecutor will be Antichrist, the beast.
[/size]
[/size]Why am I sure that the church will go through the Great Tribulation?
[/size]
[/size]It's very simple, since the source of the tribulation is Antichrist, all must take his number or perish, but His career is ended when Jesus returns. As soon as he seats himself in the temple declaring that he himself is God the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and slay him with the breath of His mouth.
[/size]
[/size]But Antichrist will have had his career, opposing every thing called god. His mission will have been to stamp out all religion.
[/size]
[/size]The church is taken out at that time [what is left of it] Paul says "we who are left and remain" I dunno that just seems to indicate to me not very many. Jesus asks "but when the Son of man returns will He find faith on earth?"
[/size]
[/size]Then comes the wrath of God upon the unbelieving world.
[/size]
[/size]I believe many will be saved, we read of Enoch that he walked with God and was not for God took him. This is the first rapture recorded in the bible and thereafter "men began to call upon the Lord."
[/size]
[/size]The wicked who remain will flee to the end of the earth. The Millennium reign will be rolled out from Jerusalem, although His appearance is sudden and a worldwide event.
[/size]

Nice article Billy, but not Biblical

Blade
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on April 03, 2020, 09:08:21 am
It's hardly biblical to think that people will have to accept the number of the beast in the Mill ... the beast is slain at the coming of the Lord and the devil locked up during the Mill.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 03, 2020, 03:15:40 pm
It's hardly biblical to think that people will have to accept the number of the beast in the Mill ... the beast is slain at the coming of the Lord and the devil locked up during the Mill.

The Church (body of Christ) will not go through GOD's Wrath which begins with the opening of the seals. some say the 6th seal is where GOD's wrath starts but it is Jesus Christ who sends the four horses to earth and those under the altar (Rev 5) are those Martyred (they were the ones left behind).

Blade
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: patrick jane on April 03, 2020, 07:14:32 pm
It's hardly biblical to think that people will have to accept the number of the beast in the Mill ... the beast is slain at the coming of the Lord and the devil locked up during the Mill.

The Church (body of Christ) will not go through GOD's Wrath which begins with the opening of the seals. some say the 6th seal is where GOD's wrath starts but it is Jesus Christ who sends the four horses to earth and those under the altar (Rev 5) are those Martyred (they were the ones left behind).

Blade
Yet are not the Four Horsemen always active in the earth at different places and times?
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 03, 2020, 08:00:46 pm
It's hardly biblical to think that people will have to accept the number of the beast in the Mill ... the beast is slain at the coming of the Lord and the devil locked up during the Mill.

The Church (body of Christ) will not go through GOD's Wrath which begins with the opening of the seals. some say the 6th seal is where GOD's wrath starts but it is Jesus Christ who sends the four horses to earth and those under the altar (Rev 5) are those Martyred (they were the ones left behind).

Blade
Yet are not the Four Horsemen always active in the earth at different places and times?

Not according to the Word of GOD!

Yes, there are Wars and Rumors of WAR....in Mat 24, Luke 21 but the Horsemen are very specific at a very specific period of time and they are part of GOD's Wrath.



Blade
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on April 04, 2020, 04:27:15 am
It's hardly biblical to think that people will have to accept the number of the beast in the Mill ... the beast is slain at the coming of the Lord and the devil locked up during the Mill.

The Church (body of Christ) will not go through GOD's Wrath which begins with the opening of the seals. some say the 6th seal is where GOD's wrath starts but it is Jesus Christ who sends the four horses to earth and those under the altar (Rev 5) are those Martyred (they were the ones left behind).

Blade


We will not go through God's wrath, we will go through the great tribulation ... Tribulation comes from the word trouble, it is not from God it is from man.


When Jesus first came the bible says Herod was troubled and all Jerusalem with him. It is called the time of "Jacob's trouble"


Now Jacob's trouble was when he fled from Laban and was returning to his own land to face [he thought] the wrath of Esau.


You would be so much better drawing your prophecy from open scriptures than trying to figger out Revelations, or reading the likes of crooks like Schofield and Lindsey. Not that Revelations is wrong but no two people agree on what it says.


Jeremiah says of the time of Jacob's trouble in plain language easily understood  Israel will be SAFE and none shall make him afraid. Jeremiah 30. Like Jacob himself it will be a time of fear and trembling but just as Jacob was safe, guarded by angels, so will Israel be. 
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 04, 2020, 04:25:59 pm
It's hardly biblical to think that people will have to accept the number of the beast in the Mill ... the beast is slain at the coming of the Lord and the devil locked up during the Mill.

WOW!,, you really got it bad....SO SAD!

Blade

The Church (body of Christ) will not go through GOD's Wrath which begins with the opening of the seals. some say the 6th seal is where GOD's wrath starts but it is Jesus Christ who sends the four horses to earth and those under the altar (Rev 5) are those Martyred (they were the ones left behind).

Blade


We will not go through God's wrath, we will go through the great tribulation ... Tribulation comes from the word trouble, it is not from God it is from man.


When Jesus first came the bible says Herod was troubled and all Jerusalem with him. It is called the time of "Jacob's trouble"


Now Jacob's trouble was when he fled from Laban and was returning to his own land to face [he thought] the wrath of Esau.


You would be so much better drawing your prophecy from open scriptures than trying to figger out Revelations, or reading the likes of crooks like Schofield and Lindsey. Not that Revelations is wrong but no two people agree on what it says.


Jeremiah says of the time of Jacob's trouble in plain language easily understood  Israel will be SAFE and none shall make him afraid. Jeremiah 30. Like Jacob himself it will be a time of fear and trembling but just as Jacob was safe, guarded by angels, so will Israel be.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on April 05, 2020, 05:09:38 pm
The great end-time persecution stops when Jesus returns for the great persecutor will be slain and the devil locked up.


This is Paul's description of the Rapture.


"the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds"


He doesn't say a thing about any left behind nor does any other scripture.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 06, 2020, 07:12:27 pm
The great end-time persecution stops when Jesus returns for the great persecutor will be slain and the devil locked up.


This is Paul's description of the Rapture.


"the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds"



He doesn't say a thing about any left behind nor does any other scripture.

Ah, you are using the Post Trib Rapture....It can be taken apart piece by piece, that is if by chance you read Rev. Literally.

Blade

Read the gospels literally

Jesus said "after [that is post] the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the four corners of heaven ..."
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on April 07, 2020, 06:14:35 pm
The great end-time persecution stops when Jesus returns for the great persecutor will be slain and the devil locked up.


This is Paul's description of the Rapture.


"the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds"


He doesn't say a thing about any left behind nor does any other scripture.


If you had been able to gather all the Jews in Germany together in 1930 and you had warned them of all that was about to befall them within the space of a very few years time they would not have believed you.


The church similarly is sleepwalking.


When the Great Persecution starts it will start suddenly, suddenly the most hated thing in the world to be will be to be a bible believing christian. The devil has been creeping up on the church for years, laying his trap, the trap will spring suddenly.


I believe a false prophet is to arise in Israel, doing great [pretended] signs and wonders and proclaiming the soon arrival of Messiah. The whole world will be amazed and will believe him. This will be the cause of the hatred poured upon the true church. The WHOLE church, the most prominent denominations will be the first to bear the brunt.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on April 07, 2020, 06:58:21 pm
The great end-time persecution stops when Jesus returns for the great persecutor will be slain and the devil locked up.


This is Paul's description of the Rapture.


"the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds"


He doesn't say a thing about any left behind nor does any other scripture.


If you had been able to gather all the Jews in Germany together in 1930 and you had warned them of all that was about to befall them within the space of a very few years time they would not have believed you.


The church similarly is sleepwalking.


When the Great Persecution starts it will start suddenly, suddenly the most hated thing in the world to be will be to be a bible believing christian. The devil has been creeping up on the church for years, laying his trap, the trap will spring suddenly.


I believe a false prophet is to arise in Israel, doing great [pretended] signs and wonders and proclaiming the soon arrival of Messiah. The whole world will be amazed and will believe him. This will be the cause of the hatred poured upon the true church. The WHOLE church, the most prominent denominations will be the first to bear the brunt.

wow!
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 01, 2020, 04:04:49 am
The great end-time persecution stops when Jesus returns for the great persecutor will be slain and the devil locked up.


This is Paul's description of the Rapture.


"the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds"



He doesn't say a thing about any left behind nor does any other scripture.

Ah, you are using the Post Trib Rapture....It can be taken apart piece by piece, that is if by chance you read Rev. Literally.

Blade

Read the gospels literally

Jesus said "after [that is post] the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the four corners of heaven ..."
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 02, 2020, 09:17:50 pm
Billy You sound more like a Catholic everyday.

Jesus did say that in Mat 24:30.(KJV).."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: v30..And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[ Notice that everyone can see him at His second coming!!!

But Jesus also said:

1 Thes 4:13-18..(KJV).."But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. v14..For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. v15..For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. v16..For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: v17..Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. v18.[/u].Wherefore comfort one another with these words".

[i]Here we meet him in the Clouds...He does not come to earth and he does not tell us that the whole earth sees him.[/i]

Jesus also tells us that we should take comfort in these words. Yet, it would be hard to take comfort if we are told that we will have to get beat up, possibly tortured and beheaded, etc. before we can go out to a bride's elect dinner. (Rev 19:7-9)

Rev 19:7-9.." Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. v8..And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. v9..And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

Billy "the Church" (His church, His body, His Bride Elect) will not go through Daniel's 70th week. 

In Rev 3:7, Jesus is speaking to the Church at Philadelphia  and he tells them..
Rev 3:10..(KJV).."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

For in Mat 24:24..(KJV).."For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

If it were possible::::::The only way it would not be possible for the false Christs to deceive the "VERY ELECT" is for the "VERY ELECT" not to be there.

There are many other verses that say the same thing.....

Have a good evening Billy

Blade





Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Jesus Truth on May 03, 2020, 05:13:54 am
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 03, 2020, 05:38:48 am
Billy You sound more like a Catholic everyday.

Jesus did say that in Mat 24:30.(KJV).."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: v30..And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[ Notice that everyone can see him at His second coming!!!

But Jesus also said:

1 Thes 4:13-18..(KJV).."But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. v14..For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. v15..For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. v16..For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: v17..Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. v18..Wherefore comfort one another with these words".

[i]Here we meet him in the Clouds...He does not come to earth and he does not tell us that the whole earth sees him.


Jesus also tells us that we should take comfort in these words. Yet, it would be hard to take comfort if we are told that we will have to get beat up, possibly tortured and beheaded, etc. before we can go out to a bride's elect dinner. (Rev 19:7-9)

Rev 19:7-9.." Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. v8..And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. v9..And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

Billy "the Church" (His church, His body, His Bride Elect) will not go through Daniel's 70th week. 

In Rev 3:7, Jesus is speaking to the Church at Philadelphia  and he tells them..
Rev 3:10..(KJV).."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

For in Mat 24:24..(KJV).."For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

If it were possible::::::The only way it would not be possible for the false Christs to deceive the "VERY ELECT" is for the "VERY ELECT" not to be there.

There are many other verses that say the same thing.....

Have a good evening Billy

Blade








There is only one coming in the clouds with great power and glory for the gathering of the elect by the holy angels. The one spoken of in Matt.24 is certainly the same as the one spoken of in 2.Thess.2. Paul does not say every eye shall see Him but Jesus does and so does John. So every eye SHALL see Him, the secret Rap is a myth.


And Jesus said it will be "AFTER the tribulation of those days" that is POST tribulation.


"The dead shall rise first ..." THIS is what Paul said we should take comfort in, the Thessies had worried that folk who had fallen asleep in Christ would miss the boat.


You cannot take Christ's message to the church of Philidelphia and apply it to the end-time church, Jesus said that many would be deceived by false prophets and false Christs, He said many will fall away, brethren will betray each other. The hearts of many will grow cold.


... but the elect will not be decieved.


Many saints have already been beat up and tortured and beheaded, look into what is happening to the Chinese church. The Reformation in Britain was sealed by the blood of martyrs, burned at the stake rather than adore the communion bread. "Take heart they cried to each other, we shall light a candle in England today which will never be extinguished..." One woman went to the stake dressed in her wedding dress for she said "Today I will meet my Bridegroom"
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 03, 2020, 05:41:30 am
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.


That's ok.


Blade and I have a history of disagreement but I hope we are still friends.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 03, 2020, 07:04:01 pm
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.


That's ok.


Blade and I have a history of disagreement but I hope we are still friends.

Of Course we are, but I am going to keep trying to get you to see the pretrib theology....


Blade
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 04, 2020, 04:11:16 am
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.


That's ok.


Blade and I have a history of disagreement but I hope we are still friends.




Of Course we are, but I am going to keep trying to get you to see the pretrib theology....


Blade


It is a modern doctrine, Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days ... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds" after means post.


Darby's interpretation was thrown out by British theologians so he took it to America. It is a lie.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 04, 2020, 09:21:04 pm
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.

That's ok.


Blade and I have a history of disagreement but I hope we are still friends.




Of Course we are, but I am going to keep trying to get you to see the pretrib theology....


Blade


It is a modern doctrine, Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days ... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds" after means post.


Darby's interpretation was thrown out by British theologians so he took it to America. It is a lie.


Billy.....Mat 24:29 starts out with your words.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Yet, you are forgetting the context of the previous verses that Jesus is speaking of...

Starting in Mat 24:15, Jesus is telling us about the AoD that will take place and He warns people to flea Judiah immediately.   

The in Mat 24:21, His words should jar the teeth of all humanity....(KJV).."For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This "Great Tribulation" is the same as  'Jacob's Trouble' spoken by Jeremiah 30:7.

And then Jesus speaks of something unrealistic in Mat 24:22.."And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  What would cause an earthly catastrophe that would kill all life on earth....Could this be Nuclear War?
It could not have been thought of in the 1860. a musket would /could not kill the whole world.

I regress,the context of your verses Mat 24:29-30..specifically Verse 29 starts out with "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Yes, immediately after the "Great Tribulation" where 2/3 of the Jewish Nation will die and 1/3 of them will become the Remnant of all Israel.

Yes, this is the second coming of Christ as prophecy has foretold.

YET, Jesus is speaking to the Jews of the time...His Church had not even started at this time.... He was telling the Jews what was going to happen to them specifially.....Later in Acts 2, the Church is born and those who believe in His Gospel will be spared the horrors of Daniel's 70th  containing "the Great Tribulation/ Jacob's trouble.

Billy, If you are in Christ totally, then you will not have to live through this time period. You and I will watch it from the Messinine of Heaven.

Darby did not interpret "that Lie" as you call it.....for it was taught prior to 1800's.

I found this in the Koinonia house archives: Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation  (The citation was found in a footnote in Paul J. Alexander's The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 1985, p. 210. Dr. Paul Alexander is probably the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church. )

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. 

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:  (The English translation of the Latin text in C.P. Caspari's Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelater (Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20) was provided by Cameron Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX. )

    "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."



Billy, I ask you,...there are all kinds of proof that the Rapture was preached back to Paul's days....FoDO you really doubt the WORD of JESUS that much?

 It is worth saying again.:Ephraem of Nisibis did NOT doubt. Again a part of His sermon in the fourth century (300s)..,

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Blade



Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 05, 2020, 07:26:14 am
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.

That's ok.


Blade and I have a history of disagreement but I hope we are still friends.




Of Course we are, but I am going to keep trying to get you to see the pretrib theology....


Blade


It is a modern doctrine, Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days ... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds" after means post.


Darby's interpretation was thrown out by British theologians so he took it to America. It is a lie.


Billy.....Mat 24:29 starts out with your words.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Yet, you are forgetting the context of the previous verses that Jesus is speaking of...

Starting in Mat 24:15, Jesus is telling us about the AoD that will take place and He warns people to flea Judiah immediately.   

The in Mat 24:21, His words should jar the teeth of all humanity....(KJV).."For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This "Great Tribulation" is the same as  'Jacob's Trouble' spoken by Jeremiah 30:7.

And then Jesus speaks of something unrealistic in Mat 24:22.."And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  What would cause an earthly catastrophe that would kill all life on earth....Could this be Nuclear War?
It could not have been thought of in the 1860. a musket would /could not kill the whole world.

I regress,the context of your verses Mat 24:29-30..specifically Verse 29 starts out with "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Yes, immediately after the "Great Tribulation" where 2/3 of the Jewish Nation will die and 1/3 of them will become the Remnant of all Israel.

Yes, this is the second coming of Christ as prophecy has foretold.

YET, Jesus is speaking to the Jews of the time...His Church had not even started at this time.... He was telling the Jews what was going to happen to them specifially.....Later in Acts 2, the Church is born and those who believe in His Gospel will be spared the horrors of Daniel's 70th  containing "the Great Tribulation/ Jacob's trouble.

Billy, If you are in Christ totally, then you will not have to live through this time period. You and I will watch it from the Messinine of Heaven.

Darby did not interpret "that Lie" as you call it.....for it was taught prior to 1800's.

I found this in the Koinonia house archives: Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation  (The citation was found in a footnote in Paul J. Alexander's The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 1985, p. 210. Dr. Paul Alexander is probably the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church. )

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. 

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:  (The English translation of the Latin text in C.P. Caspari's Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelater (Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20) was provided by Cameron Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX. )

    "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."



Billy, I ask you,...there are all kinds of proof that the Rapture was preached back to Paul's days....FoDO you really doubt the WORD of JESUS that much?

 It is worth saying again.:Ephraem of Nisibis did NOT doubt. Again a part of His sermon in the fourth century (300s)..,

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, andare taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Blade


Pershaw!! Ephraim of Nisibis [bizniz] is that the best you can do? It is better to go by scripture and the consensus of the church. Paul says the last days will be perilous when men are fierce haters of God. When Jesus says "you will be hated of all men for My sake"


He doesn't say "immediately after those days 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered and only a remnant left" YOU say that.


I've shown you and you AGREE that the tribulation responds to Jacob's trouble, the time of greatest trouble since there was a nation. Jeremiah talks about it, he says Israel will be SAVED, they shall be AT REST and NONE SHALL MAKE THEM AFRAID. Read it in chapter 30.


Daniel talks about it he says St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them. Read it in chapter 12.


It is the CHURCH that goes through the Great Tribulation or at least the first 3 and 1/2 years of it, for the elect's sake it will be shortened or no flesh would survive.

Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 05, 2020, 06:55:58 pm
you said: Pershaw!! Ephraim of Nisibis [bizniz] is that the best you can do? It is better to go by scripture and the consensus of the church. Paul says the last days will be perilous when men are fierce haters of God. When Jesus says "you will be hated of all men for My sake"

Yes, Jesus was speaking directly to the Jews and they have been hated but Anti-Semitics is making a come back after the WWII and it will hit the Jewish Nation with a vengeance. We have only seen the tip of the iceburg concerning the hatred for the Jews of the world.

Billy, It appears, that no matter what  proof I give you, you close your eyes and ears each time and will not research it for yourself if what I am saying is true...Here you are breaking a commandment of GOD......But it seems you really do not care.

Blade
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 06, 2020, 03:11:36 am
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in every case what the bible says.


Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St michael will stand up and they will be delivered.


The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church must go through the Great Tribulation.


I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation of those days the church will be gathered"


So who is it who is not researching?
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 06, 2020, 11:28:03 am
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in every case what the bible says.

Jesus was speaking to Jews and not the CHurch was not yet born...



Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St michael will stand up and they will be delivered.

Billy, at least insert the scripture you are quoting from?

The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church must go through the Great Tribulation.

Billy, Yes you are right about the Church (brick and mortar).   Ah I see the Problem you are having....It is separatig the CHurch (brick and Mortar from the Spiritual Church of Jesus (his Body /Bride Elect)...They are two different things...

The Church (brick and mortar) include most of the denominations and non-denominations including the RCC. They say they are in Christ but 90% are not.

The Spiritual Church contains the the only TRUE believers. These believers include both races of the earth. (Gentile and Jew)..I am part of that Church and support Israel at all times. 

If you will learn to separate these two entities, you and I will agree on much we have previous disagreed on.




I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation of those days the church will be gathered" 

No, Billy, you have it turned around., I can and have been proving the Rapture was actually believed in since the 100 AD and before. You have to really be careful with the "After the tribulation of those days".  I explained this before and I would bet you did not been read it....you are so set in your beliefs, you will not follow the commands of Jesus /Paul in (Acts 17:11).

so sad.



So who is it who is not researching?

Yes who ins not researching anything.......when you through off proof with a (BIZNIZ) comment....

Blade
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 07, 2020, 05:29:44 am
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in every case what the bible says.

Jesus was speaking to Jews and not the CHurch was not yet born...



Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St michael will stand up and they will be delivered.

Billy, at least insert the scripture you are quoting from?

The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church must go through the Great Tribulation.

Billy, Yes you are right about the Church (brick and mortar).   Ah I see the Problem you are having....It is separatig the CHurch (brick and Mortar from the Spiritual Church of Jesus (his Body /Bride Elect)...They are two different things...

The Church (brick and mortar) include most of the denominations and non-denominations including the RCC. They say they are in Christ but 90% are not.

The Spiritual Church contains the the only TRUE believers. These believers include both races of the earth. (Gentile and Jew)..I am part of that Church and support Israel at all times. 

If you will learn to separate these two entities, you and I will agree on much we have previous disagreed on.




I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation of those days the church will be gathered" 

No, Billy, you have it turned around., I can and have been proving the Rapture was actually believed in since the 100 AD and before. You have to really be careful with the "After the tribulation of those days".  I explained this before and I would bet you did not been read it....you are so set in your beliefs, you will not follow the commands of Jesus /Paul in (Acts 17:11).

so sad.



So who is it who is not researching?

Yes who ins not researching anything.......when you through off proof with a (BIZNIZ) comment....

Blade


Jesus was speaking to His disciples who are the church, "persecuted for My name's sake..." 

I'm afraid the antisemitism goes beyond brick and mortar, Luther who was used above everybody to reform the church hated the Jews and they were generally hated by the church.


And I say to you this idea that the Jews must go through the tribulation is a reflection of this ingrained idea.


I say God is no longer scattering Israel He is gathering them, He is no longer punishing them He is blessing them and will continue to do so.


The best theologians have ALL rejected pretrib. It is just the pop theologians. The church has always believed that the endtimes would be perilous.


I read ALL your replies very carefully. else I would not be able to respond to each point.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 07, 2020, 09:06:47 am
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in every case what the bible says.

Jesus was speaking to Jews and not the CHurch was not yet born...



Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St michael will stand up and they will be delivered.

Billy, at least insert the scripture you are quoting from?

The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church must go through the Great Tribulation.

Billy, Yes you are right about the Church (brick and mortar).   Ah I see the Problem you are having....It is separatig the CHurch (brick and Mortar from the Spiritual Church of Jesus (his Body /Bride Elect)...They are two different things...

The Church (brick and mortar) include most of the denominations and non-denominations including the RCC. They say they are in Christ but 90% are not.

The Spiritual Church contains the the only TRUE believers. These believers include both races of the earth. (Gentile and Jew)..I am part of that Church and support Israel at all times. 

If you will learn to separate these two entities, you and I will agree on much we have previous disagreed on.






I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation of those days the church will be gathered" 

No, Billy, you have ignored what proof I have given.The Pre-TRIB Doctrine is part of the Bible, God's Word., I can and have been proving the Rapture was actually believed in since the 100 AD and before. You have to really be careful with the "After the tribulation of those days".  I explained this before and I would bet you did not been read it....you are so set in your beliefs, you will not follow the commands of Jesus /Paul in (Acts 17:11).

so sad.



So who is it who is not researching?

Yes who ins not researching anything.......when you through off proof with a (BIZNIZ) comment....

Blade

****************Next day********************

Jesus was speaking to His disciples who are the church, "persecuted for My name's sake..." 

Your kidding right?, The disciples are not the whole Church (His Body/Bride Elect) of Jesus. Those of us who are true believers are also part of that Church.  There are still many people who are also true believers and they too are persecuted/oppressed even today. It is a blessing that you and I are not in that group being persecuted, right now that is!

I'm afraid the antisemitism goes beyond brick and mortar, Luther who was used above everybody to reform the church hated the Jews and they were generally hated by the church.
Quote

 You obviously do not have idea about Luther. He had a problem with the doctrine of 'Work before Faith = Salvation'.  He had decided that Salvation was apart from the works of a person and only needed Faith/belief in Jesus Christ. All other beliefs of the RCC, he retained and thereby he was as bad as the Church during the crusades.

In fact, the letter John wrote to the Church of 'Sardis in Rev 3:1. This church through out the years has been representing the churches that have the same characteristics and the original Sardis church. Here Jesus (the author of all seven letters) decribes this time period of Luther and Darby to a tee........and He gives NOTHING they have done right! It is all bad.  His warning to them in Rev 3:3-5 to change or else....

You really need to quite listening to who ever it is you are listening to..They are giving you bad history, etc.

And I say to you this idea that the Jews must go through the tribulation is a reflection of this ingrained idea.

 what ingrained idea..I see NO idea, (ingrained  idea)or otherwise that you have put forward with any type of proof.. Mainly because you have none.

I say God is no longer scattering Israel He is gathering them, He is no longer punishing them He is blessing them and will continue to do so.

 True, God scattered them in 135 AD and partially blinded them at the same time....While He is bringing them back home to Israel, since 1948, the partial blindness remains as evidence in your refusal to see the truth of GOD's WORD as it is simply, literally read.


The best theologians have ALL rejected pretrib. It is just the pop theologians. The church has always believed that the endtimes would be perilous.

No they are not....Pre-trib has been around since the 1st century and I have proven that through God's Word (scripture) time and time again. Yet, you continue to refuse to accept it. Blinded yes.


I read ALL your replies very carefully. else I would not be able to respond to each point.

You may read them but you do not follow Act 17:11....or you would find what I have said is true.   so sad..

Blade



Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Billy Evmur on May 09, 2020, 01:38:14 am
The Great Tribulation is the end time persecution that Jesus warned us to expect. The root of the word tribulation is trouble. As when Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Herod was greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Troublation comes from man, the picture is Jacob fleeing in great fear back to his homeland with Laban in hot pursuit and with meeting Esau who had vowed to kill him in prospect. But God was protecting Jacob.


Until you distinguish between the prophecies that deal with Israel's FALL and the prophecies that deal with Israel's RISE you will continue to jumble up prophecy.
Title: Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
Post by: Bladerunner on May 09, 2020, 08:05:29 am
The Great Tribulation is the end time persecution that Jesus warned us to expect. The root of the word tribulation is trouble. As when Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Herod was greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Troublation comes from man, the picture is Jacob fleeing in great fear back to his homeland with Laban in hot pursuit and with meeting Esau who had vowed to kill him in prospect. But God was protecting Jacob.


Until you distinguish between the prophecies that deal with Israel's FALL and the prophecies that deal with Israel's RISE you will continue to jumble up prophecy.



So you are basing your salvation on a theory that GOD will save all ISrael, all those Jews who have lived....Does this include, Esau, Ishmael, etc...

Blade

Whatever "ALL" means it certainly doesn't mean only a 1/3rd. I am happy to let the Lord decide about Esau and Ishmael, I don't believe they are damned. On the other hand it is certain that Judas Iscariot was not saved, he is called the son of perdition.

Paul's statement "ALL Israel will be saved" is difficult to weigh.