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Christian Theology with DOUG and TED T. => Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE) => Topic started by: Ted T. on May 11, 2019, 05:11:13 pm

Title: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 11, 2019, 05:11:13 pm
  Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
 
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.


Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated by physical  conception.


The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.


In this forum I will discuss as I can the scriptures in support of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.


Of course I do not take my interpretation to be the only option - I present it to encourage lateral thinking about the blasphemies underlying Christian doctrine to encourage a search for the best solution. I do not believe there is any one or two verses that are so perfect they prove without doubt that PCE is true any more than there are any such verses that prove Calvinism, Arminianism or Catholicism are true.


I also challenge anyone to find even one verse that even simply implies that PCE might be theologically impossible - waste all the time you want on this one; it is not there.

I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you know of any blasphemies at the base of Christian orthodoxy? If not, why not? Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have never come across anything that someone has suggested is a blasphemy at the base of Christianity? Should be fun, eh?


     Here are some hints for understanding the posts in this section: When it asks you a question, try to answer it. Don't put finding the answer off. Secondly, don't read it so fast. You will notice that you just can't breeze over it and have it make sense immediately. On the other hand, it will make good sense if you go slow and answer the questions (or, at least, try to). You're going to have to do some work to see things this way. Blessed are those who are hungry enough to do the work, at least, that's what everyone says who has already worked hard enough to have climbed this mountain. They all say that the view is absolutely out of this world, and that the fruit at the top is even better, definitely worth the effort.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: patrick jane on May 11, 2019, 05:27:52 pm
  Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
 
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.


Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated by physical  conception.


The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.


In this forum I will present as I can the scriptures in support of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.


I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you know of any blasphemies at the base of Cristian orthodoxy? If not, why not?Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have never come across anything that someone has suggested is a blasphemy at the base of Chrisitany? Should be fun, eh?
Very interesting and I think supported. I read some interesting testimony from Edgar Cayce who many say was in touch with the spirit of God and he said all souls were created in the beginning and none have been created since. He also talked about reincarnation while in a trance like state. He could speak other languages and could see and know things in the trance that he did not know when he was awake.

I'm not trying to change the subject nor am I relating PCE to Edgar Cayce or reincarnation. I'm only relaying what I read as I was reading that book before I started reading the Bible. Thank you Ted, I will enjoy your posts very much.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 12, 2019, 02:15:15 pm
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...


Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the world believed.


But I do think the Bible supports PCE.


As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other. There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced inevitably. It may also account for the sinfulness of animals (proven later) if they are inhabited by 'dead' sinful spirits.


To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth. 
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: patrick jane on May 18, 2019, 11:47:16 pm
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...


Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the world believed.


But I do think the Bible supports PCE.


As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other. There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced inevitably.


To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to creation?
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 19, 2019, 01:11:13 pm
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to creation?

I read the answer in Romans 1 where it talks about sinners repressing, suppressing, the truth becomes they love sin more than the truth. It is one of the more pernicious effects of becoming a sinner, sigh. Romans does speak specifically to those under HIS wrath and I believe John 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. tells us that sinful believers are never under condemnation, ie, wrath, but I have experienced this repression in myself in my sin so I am comfortable thinking it applies to the uncondemned sinful elect also.

Also, there is whole Christian sub-culture that insists on death as a return home which is perfectly PCE even without the theology and it implies that some residual memory of pre-earth as our home might exist.


Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Bladerunner on May 19, 2019, 09:14:54 pm
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to creation?

I read the answer in Romans 1 where it talks about sinners repressing, suppressing, the truth becomes they love sin more than the truth. It is one of the more pernicious effects of becoming a sinner, sigh. Romans does speak specifically to those under HIS wrath and I believe John 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. tells us that sinful believers are never under condemnation, ie, wrath, but I have experienced this repression in myself in my sin so I am comfortable thinking it applies to the uncondemned sinful elect also.

Also, there is whole Christian sub-culture that insists on death as a return home which is perfectly PCE even without the theology and it implies that some residual memory of pre-earth as our home might exist.

This follows the Gap theory between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2

Blade
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 20, 2019, 12:20:41 pm
This follows the Gap theory between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2
Believing in the Deity of Christ does not make a Calvinist nor Arminian a Catholic.  Similar aspects are differentiated by the bulk of the theology.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Tambora on September 12, 2019, 02:19:31 pm
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.

One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble himself to a lower state.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on September 13, 2019, 02:55:34 pm
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.
Which theory"? The GAP theory which I reject or PCE which I espouse? I do not find the following in PCE traditions:
Quote
One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble himself to a lower state.

Now this is fanciful, :)


Please consider:
Satan and his crew sinned the unforgivable sin of attributing to GOD evil in HIS nature, in HIS intent and in HIS actions. IF they were still forgivable then they would be forgiven; ie, no one who can be saved will not be saved.

Then he and his were flung to the earth and bound by chains OF darkness ie blinded to the truth of YHWH's Divinity and Righteousness by their own desire to be evil, Rom 1:21+

  Revelation 12:4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Flung is the same word used twice in Rev 12:7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.  Since flung has a meaning of harsh treatment from anger and it is also a strange thing for Satan to dispel a third of his cohorts BEFORE the war with Michael et al started, I suggest that the 1/3 he flung to earth were the elect who came under his spell and sinned which, though sinners, were of no use to him (since they were elect) therefore he rejected them, got them out of his way, before the war started.

Thus all sinners, elect sinners and eternally evil sinners, were sent to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their time to be sown into the world as per Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil...to which the wicked return upon death: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back to / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God.  Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to back to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.
   
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Bladerunner on September 18, 2019, 08:30:53 pm
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.
Which theory"? The GAP theory which I reject or PCE which I espouse? I do not find the following in PCE traditions:
Quote
One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble himself to a lower state.

Now this is fanciful, :)


Please consider:
Satan and his crew sinned the unforgivable sin of attributing to GOD evil in HIS nature, in HIS intent and in HIS actions. IF they were still forgivable then they would be forgiven; ie, no one who can be saved will not be saved.

Then he and his were flung to the earth and bound by chains OF darkness ie blinded to the truth of YHWH's Divinity and Righteousness by their own desire to be evil, Rom 1:21+

  Revelation 12:4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Flung is the same word used twice in Rev 12:7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.  Since flung has a meaning of harsh treatment from anger and it is also a strange thing for Satan to dispel a third of his cohorts BEFORE the war with Michael et al started, I suggest that the 1/3 he flung to earth were the elect who came under his spell and sinned which, though sinners, were of no use to him (since they were elect) therefore he rejected them, got them out of his way, before the war started.

Thus all sinners, elect sinners and eternally evil sinners, were sent to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their time to be sown into the world as per Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil...to which the wicked return upon death: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back to / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God.  Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to back to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.
 

Your PCE theology would make a good science fiction book.

Blade
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on October 21, 2019, 12:40:01 pm
  That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is possible that our being created on earth bias has taken over as the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted to infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.


Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life: Jeremiah 1:5  "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."  Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox  doctrine...that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning  rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine... ie, pure eisegesis!


That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as something else for centuries means that you can read them and never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence though the best will mention it.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: patrick jane on March 09, 2020, 02:22:05 pm
  Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
 
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.


Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated by physical  conception.


The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.


In this forum I will discuss as I can the scriptures in support of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.


Of course I do not take my interpretation to be the only option - I present it to encourage lateral thinking about the blasphemies underlying Christian doctrine to encourage a search for the best solution. I do not believe there is any one or two verses that are so perfect they prove without doubt that PCE is true any more than there are any such verses that prove Calvinism, Arminianism or Catholicism are true.


I also challenge anyone to find even one verse that even simply implies that PCE might be theologically impossible - waste all the time you want on this one; it is not there.

I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you know of any blasphemies at the base of Christian orthodoxy? If not, why not? Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have never come across anything that someone has suggested is a blasphemy at the base of Christianity? Should be fun, eh?


     Here are some hints for understanding the posts in this section: When it asks you a question, try to answer it. Don't put finding the answer off. Secondly, don't read it so fast. You will notice that you just can't breeze over it and have it make sense immediately. On the other hand, it will make good sense if you go slow and answer the questions (or, at least, try to). You're going to have to do some work to see things this way. Blessed are those who are hungry enough to do the work, at least, that's what everyone says who has already worked hard enough to have climbed this mountain. They all say that the view is absolutely out of this world, and that the fruit at the top is even better, definitely worth the effort.
Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Bladerunner on March 09, 2020, 03:42:28 pm
  That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is possible that our being created on earth bias has taken over as the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted to infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.


Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life: Jeremiah 1:5  "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."  Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox  doctrine...that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning  rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine... ie, pure eisegesis!


That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as something else for centuries means that you can read them and never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence though the best will mention it.

Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on March 10, 2020, 01:12:02 pm
Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?
No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed and appreciated!


I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was the fall before the foundation of the world?

I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and false god.

I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.  as the call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for destruction.

This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus of your question.
   


Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: patrick jane on March 10, 2020, 01:49:34 pm
Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?
No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed and appreciated!


I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was the fall before the foundation of the world?

I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and false god.

I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.  as the call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for destruction.

This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus of your question.
 
Thank you Ted, let me read this post several times as I ponder and meditate on it. I will certainly reply soon. God willing.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on March 10, 2020, 02:07:52 pm
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the  doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.


We makes our choice and we sticks to it...
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Bladerunner on March 10, 2020, 07:41:07 pm
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the  doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.


We makes our choice and we sticks to it...

Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never knew them?

Blade
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on March 11, 2020, 12:27:38 pm
Quote
Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never knew them?Blade
Do you mean because they hid their true nature from me??  No one hides from the Living GOD, Blade.

Jesus said there were people who would claim to be of Him whom He NEVER knew!!! This has to make sense somehow in light of the fact He created us, He elected us, He sowed, planted, us into mankind (Matt 13:37-38) so how could He NEVER know some of us???

The only thing that makes sense is that HE had a prior good relationship with those called the good seed aka His sheep whom He knew and loved but who went astray into sin but now are RETURNING to Him through the gift of grace: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.  When were you one His sheep before you were created sinful in Adam? In Adam's sin you believe we are are spiritually separated from GOD until rebirth so when were we His sheep in our sin?

How did we go astray into sin if we had no choice to sin nor opportunity to be anything but sinful in Adam?  Either He did not pay attention to us or our sin was due to some rebellion in us...and which is more likely that our sin is His fault for not being a good Shepherd or our rebellion?  None of this makes any sense whatsoever without our pre-earth faith in Him by which we became His sheep, aka His elect, aka His good seed, and then rebelled  against Him, pre-conception.