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Theology and Philosophy => Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE) => Topic started by: Ted T. on May 11, 2019, 05:11:13 pm

Title: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 11, 2019, 05:11:13 pm
  Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
 
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.


Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated by physical  conception.


The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.


In this forum I will discuss as I can the scriptures in support of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.


Of course I do not take my interpretation to be the only option - I present it to encourage lateral thinking about the blasphemies underlying Christian doctrine to encourage a search for the best solution. I do not believe there is any one or two verses that are so perfect they prove without doubt that PCE is true any more than there are any such verses that prove Calvinism, Arminianism or Catholicism are true.


I also challenge anyone to find even one verse that even simply implies that PCE might be theologically impossible - waste all the time you want on this one; it is not there.

I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you know of any blasphemies at the base of Christian orthodoxy? If not, why not? Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have never come across anything that someone has suggested is a blasphemy at the base of Christianity? Should be fun, eh?


     Here are some hints for understanding the posts in this section: When it asks you a question, try to answer it. Don't put finding the answer off. Secondly, don't read it so fast. You will notice that you just can't breeze over it and have it make sense immediately. On the other hand, it will make good sense if you go slow and answer the questions (or, at least, try to). You're going to have to do some work to see things this way. Blessed are those who are hungry enough to do the work, at least, that's what everyone says who has already worked hard enough to have climbed this mountain. They all say that the view is absolutely out of this world, and that the fruit at the top is even better, definitely worth the effort.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: patrick jane on May 11, 2019, 05:27:52 pm
  Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
 
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.


Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated by physical  conception.


The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.


In this forum I will present as I can the scriptures in support of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.


I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you know of any blasphemies at the base of Cristian orthodoxy? If not, why not?Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have never come across anything that someone has suggested is a blasphemy at the base of Chrisitany? Should be fun, eh?
Very interesting and I think supported. I read some interesting testimony from Edgar Cayce who many say was in touch with the spirit of God and he said all souls were created in the beginning and none have been created since. He also talked about reincarnation while in a trance like state. He could speak other languages and could see and know things in the trance that he did not know when he was awake.

I'm not trying to change the subject nor am I relating PCE to Edgar Cayce or reincarnation. I'm only relaying what I read as I was reading that book before I started reading the Bible. Thank you Ted, I will enjoy your posts very much.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 12, 2019, 02:15:15 pm
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...


Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the world believed.


But I do think the Bible supports PCE.


As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other. There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced inevitably. It may also account for the sinfulness of animals (proven later) if they are inhabited by 'dead' sinful spirits.


To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth. 
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: patrick jane on May 18, 2019, 11:47:16 pm
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...


Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the world believed.


But I do think the Bible supports PCE.


As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other. There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced inevitably.


To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to creation?
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 19, 2019, 01:11:13 pm
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to creation?

I read the answer in Romans 1 where it talks about sinners repressing, suppressing, the truth becomes they love sin more than the truth. It is one of the more pernicious effects of becoming a sinner, sigh. Romans does speak specifically to those under HIS wrath and I believe John 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. tells us that sinful believers are never under condemnation, ie, wrath, but I have experienced this repression in myself in my sin so I am comfortable thinking it applies to the uncondemned sinful elect also.

Also, there is whole Christian sub-culture that insists on death as a return home which is perfectly PCE even without the theology and it implies that some residual memory of pre-earth as our home might exist.


Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Bladerunner on May 19, 2019, 09:14:54 pm
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to creation?

I read the answer in Romans 1 where it talks about sinners repressing, suppressing, the truth becomes they love sin more than the truth. It is one of the more pernicious effects of becoming a sinner, sigh. Romans does speak specifically to those under HIS wrath and I believe John 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. tells us that sinful believers are never under condemnation, ie, wrath, but I have experienced this repression in myself in my sin so I am comfortable thinking it applies to the uncondemned sinful elect also.

Also, there is whole Christian sub-culture that insists on death as a return home which is perfectly PCE even without the theology and it implies that some residual memory of pre-earth as our home might exist.

This follows the Gap theory between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2

Blade
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on May 20, 2019, 12:20:41 pm
This follows the Gap theory between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2
Believing in the Deity of Christ does not make a Calvinist nor Arminian a Catholic.  Similar aspects are differentiated by the bulk of the theology.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Tambora on September 12, 2019, 02:19:31 pm
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.

One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble himself to a lower state.
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on September 13, 2019, 02:55:34 pm
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.
Which theory"? The GAP theory which I reject or PCE which I espouse? I do not find the following in PCE traditions:
Quote
One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble himself to a lower state.

Now this is fanciful, :)


Please consider:
Satan and his crew sinned the unforgivable sin of attributing to GOD evil in HIS nature, in HIS intent and in HIS actions. IF they were still forgivable then they would be forgiven; ie, no one who can be saved will not be saved.

Then he and his were flung to the earth and bound by chains OF darkness ie blinded to the truth of YHWH's Divinity and Righteousness by their own desire to be evil, Rom 1:21+

  Revelation 12:4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Flung is the same word used twice in Rev 12:7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.  Since flung has a meaning of harsh treatment from anger and it is also a strange thing for Satan to dispel a third of his cohorts BEFORE the war with Michael et al started, I suggest that the 1/3 he flung to earth were the elect who came under his spell and sinned which, though sinners, were of no use to him (since they were elect) therefore he rejected them, got them out of his way, before the war started.

Thus all sinners, elect sinners and eternally evil sinners, were sent to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their time to be sown into the world as per Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil...to which the wicked return upon death: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back to / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God.  Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to back to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.
   
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Bladerunner on September 18, 2019, 08:30:53 pm
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.
Which theory"? The GAP theory which I reject or PCE which I espouse? I do not find the following in PCE traditions:
Quote
One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble himself to a lower state.

Now this is fanciful, :)


Please consider:
Satan and his crew sinned the unforgivable sin of attributing to GOD evil in HIS nature, in HIS intent and in HIS actions. IF they were still forgivable then they would be forgiven; ie, no one who can be saved will not be saved.

Then he and his were flung to the earth and bound by chains OF darkness ie blinded to the truth of YHWH's Divinity and Righteousness by their own desire to be evil, Rom 1:21+

  Revelation 12:4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Flung is the same word used twice in Rev 12:7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.  Since flung has a meaning of harsh treatment from anger and it is also a strange thing for Satan to dispel a third of his cohorts BEFORE the war with Michael et al started, I suggest that the 1/3 he flung to earth were the elect who came under his spell and sinned which, though sinners, were of no use to him (since they were elect) therefore he rejected them, got them out of his way, before the war started.

Thus all sinners, elect sinners and eternally evil sinners, were sent to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their time to be sown into the world as per Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil...to which the wicked return upon death: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back to / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God.  Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to back to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.
 

Your PCE theology would make a good science fiction book.

Blade
Title: Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
Post by: Ted T. on October 21, 2019, 12:40:01 pm
  That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is possible that our being created on earth bias has taken over as the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted to infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.


Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life: Jeremiah 1:5  "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."  Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox  doctrine...that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning  rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine... ie, pure eisegesis!


That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as something else for centuries means that you can read them and never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence though the best will mention it.