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Christian Theology with DOUG and TED T. => Christian Theology => Topic started by: Grace_Accepted on February 14, 2019, 11:16:39 pm

Title: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on February 14, 2019, 11:16:39 pm
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog (https://www.brentcunningham.org/?p=584) as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.


We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.


The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.  This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.
.
Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on February 15, 2019, 10:40:39 am
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog (https://www.brentcunningham.org/?p=584) as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.  This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.
.
Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
Great study approach. Back in the day my Grandma would write notes in her Bible with cross references, concordance and her interpretations. I still have some of her Bibles and she was really in the spirit all her life. She taught me about Revelation starting when I was 4 or 5. I do the things you listed above, most of them, but I have written only pages of verses and what they're about. I have filled many pages but I put them all to the side when they fill up and they are just in a pile somewhere.

So basically, I do the studies in my head as I read and absorb scripture. I could and should study and read more and I always plan to. My memory isn't as good anymore either so I stay in the scriptures online. Most of my study has been in Paul's epistles for the last 5 years. That makes the OT easier for me to understand. I love Jesus' words the most though.

Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Bladerunner on February 15, 2019, 06:43:49 pm
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog (https://www.brentcunningham.org/?p=584) as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.  This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.
.
Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.
Great study approach. Back in the day my Grandma would write notes in her Bible with cross references, concordance and her interpretations. I still have some of her Bibles and she was really in the spirit all her life. She taught me about Revelation starting when I was 4 or 5. I do the things you listed above, most of them, but I have written only pages of verses and what they're about. I have filled many pages but I put them all to the side when they fill up and they are just in a pile somewhere.

So basically, I do the studies in my head as I read and absorb scripture. I could and should study and read more and I always plan to. My memory isn't as good anymore either so I stay in the scriptures online. Most of my study has been in Paul's epistles for the last 5 years. That makes the OT easier for me to understand. I love Jesus' words the most though.

Your Grandmother knew how to enable complete call back when needed.

The Truth statements are ok for testing context but the best way is to let the Holy Spirit within you, teach you.   LISTEN to HIM!

Blade
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on February 27, 2019, 10:47:29 pm
When we hear a truth statement or make a truth statement we should always check it for eternal coherence within the statement's context. We need to determine whether the belief is rationally consistent within itself and in relation to other beliefs of one’s larger worldview.

For spiritual truth statements, this would include the bible.  This test is not the traditional way most people determine spiritual truths.  Most people determine spiritual truths through non logical means.  Brent Cunningham outlined these ways in his blog (https://www.brentcunningham.org/?p=584) as follows.

1. Instinct — “It seems true to me.”
    To this statement we must simply ask . . .
    . . . Why?  What is guiding one’s instinctual ability to judge between competing truth-claims?
2. Feelings — “I like the feeling I get.” or “It feels right.”
    . . . Can feelings be mistaken?
3. Wish fulfillment — “The God that I (want to) believe in would never send someone to hell.”
    . . . Maybe not, but the God one wants to believe in may not be the God who actually exists.  We can never determine objective truth simply by what we want to be true.
4. Custom — “This is the way I / my family / my culture has always been.”
    . . . Can they be mistaken?  What if one came from a Nazi background?
5. Popularity contest — “Well, ‘everyone’ believes it.”
    . . . Again, can ‘everyone’ be wrong?  Counting noses is never a good means of determining truth.
6. Pragmatism — “It works for me, therefore it must be true.”
    . . . However, almost anything can ‘work’ for a time.  Truth works overall.  For instance, a belief may ‘work’ at ridding oneself of guilt by denying it rather than absolving it.
7. Significance — “It gives my life meaning.”
    . . . Is the meaning simply the result of wish-fulfillment or is it connected with reality?

But these often lead to false beliefs and teachings being believed as the truth.

Instead we need to apply logic and discernment to spiritual truth statements to see if they fit rationally with the bible's teachings.

Let's look at such 2 truth statements and put them through this test.

  • Jesus Was God Incarnate
  • Jesus Was Not divine but just a man

But my dear friend Grace_Accepted, Jesus was Not 'God incarnate' and there is just no way you can make that a rational Bible teaching. It is clear that it was not God, but Gods son who was "sent into the world", which is the basis of the whole NT writings, .. especially John.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
.. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


God, the Father of Word sent him, and it was the "Word that became flesh", not God.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life


Can't get any more clearer than that

Quote from: Grace_Accepted
We know the some aspects of the nature of sin from other parts of the bible.  We know the following points.

  • The wages of sin is death
  • That death is eternal
  • That death was passed to all men when Adam sinned

The things we know about Christ's death on the cross.
  • Christ died to pay for our sins
  • Not only our sins but the whole world's sins
  • He rose again on the third day


First let's run the second truth statement through the test.  Jesus was only a man sent from God and not divine.

The Word, not God. It was Gods son Word who was sent from Heaven, and Not Jesus. Once we allow these seemingly minute changes to take hold in our minds, it leads to one of the most critical errors in understanding God. Just as the Fiery Angel of the Lord that spoke to Moses was not God, nor Moses was God, the same way Gods son Word was Not God. In all cases God was "manifesting" Himself through these different beings.

Manifest
verb
1. display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.
"Jesus manifested attributes of his Father God"
synonyms:
display, show, exhibit, demonstrate, betray, present, evince, reveal, indicate, make plain, express, declare

Quote
This would mean that he could not have risien on the third day if he paid the price of eternal death.  It would also mean that he could have only given his life as a ransom for one other man and the rest of the world is out of luck.

1 pet3er 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
.. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Quote
This truth statement is not internally coherent.

Let's run the second statement through the test.

Jesus was God incarnate.  God is infinite and has infinite life.  This means he could divide that life into as many other infinite lives as he chose to do.  Yes, he could pay for all the world's eternal damnation and still have an infinite life left over.  This means he could still rise the third day even after suffering eternal death for all.

This statement passes the truth test with flying colors.  Therefore I discard the failed truth statement and adopt the one that passed.

This is only one of three truth test which can help you filter the BS from the real word of God and divide the scriptures rightly.

If Infinite and Eternal could die, then He is NOT Infinite and Eternal. Only a created being could die, and the son Word was the "first of all Gods creations, this is why he is also referred to as "The First and the Last".

Yes my dear Christian friend, you are so close, but it does not go with what we read from the Bible, .. which is that "God sent His son Word (John 3:16) who became flesh (John 1:14) and died for us all.
This has nothing to do with what God is able to do as far as raising His son from the dead, even the Apostles were given that authority. This has to do with one of the Adams paying off the sin of the other.
Just as one Adam sinned and the whole world was now condemned, the same way one Adam remained sinless, and sacrificed for all mankind.

Jesus kept the whole law, this made him the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish. God would never keep a perfect man who kept all the commandments in death, so hell could not keep him, .. Satan had nothing on him.

But

because he took all our sins, God turned the other way and let him die. He died for OUR sins, took them to the grave with him, but he himself was faultless, so God, not breaking His commandments raised him. NOT because Jesus was God, but because he was found worthy.
This is why if we confess that Jesus was the son of God, and believe that it was he alone who took our sins to the grave, we too shall be raised from death into everlasting life. This is Scriptural and true.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

But what happens to billions of Christians who make the son of God Word aka Jesus out to be some sun-god, or part of a conspiracy doctrine that turns God/Infinite into a mortal, and kill Him?
Here is a Warning to us all:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the holy one, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?


Jesus was not God, nor one of the Christian gods that make up the idea of God, not Infinite who can become finite mortal and die,  but the son Word who became flesh, and took our sins to the grave, and because death cannot reign in a holy and just man, so God raised him, leaving all our sins in the grave, buried and forgotten. So this Trinity denies God our Infinite and Eternal Creator by making the mortal Jesus a god and anyone who does this is:

22 He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Arius
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on February 28, 2019, 12:09:06 am
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on February 28, 2019, 10:17:21 pm
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Yes, it became flesh but retained the divinity of God.  There are a number of reasons this was necessary.  But let us first examine one argument at a time or we will become bogged down.

Jesus was God because the Word was God and we know that the Word was Jesus because the attributes of the Word match the Attributes of Christ, and verse 14 says as much.  The Jews of Christ's day definitely took offense with Jesus several time, understanding him to be claiming deity and he never corrected them.
 He accepted prayer, worship, forgave sins and gave life to the dead. Lastly we have it spelled out in Rev 19:13 that indeed he is the Word of God.

In order to make Christ out not to be divine one must rely on the false dilemma logical fallacy.  In the end, I think that all people who relay on adhere to and believe in Jesus will be saved regardless of their beliefs in this matter.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on February 28, 2019, 11:00:04 pm
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Yes, it became flesh but retained the divinity of God.  There are a number of reasons this was necessary.  But let us first examine one argument at a time or we will become bogged down.

Jesus was God because the Word was God and we know that the Word was Jesus because the attributes of the Word match the Attributes of Christ, and verse 14 says as much.  The Jews of Christ's day definitely took offense with Jesus several time, understanding him to be claiming deity and he never corrected them.
 He accepted prayer, worship, forgave sins and gave life to the dead. Lastly we have it spelled out in Rev 19:13 that indeed he is the Word of God.

In order to make Christ out not to be divine one must rely on the false dilemma logical fallacy.  In the end, I think that all people who relay on adhere to and believe in Jesus will be saved regardless of their beliefs in this matter.
Yes, I don't condemn people for not believing in the trinity. It's above my pay grade and I don't think God sends people to hell for being wrong or not understanding completely.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on March 07, 2019, 11:25:04 am
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Matthew 14:26-33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 25:17-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ~ See prophecies about God being the only saviour

Luke 19:43-44 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3-4 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.








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Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on March 08, 2019, 03:37:21 pm
Brother @patrick jane
I can't get the buttons to work, like the bold, italic, underline, strike, so I have to type it out myself expl; [t] [/t]. Also I didn't get notifications on some posts, like this important one: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity

Can you please look into it, or tell me what I have turned off for it not working and not getting some notifications?

Love you Bro!


Arius/Evidence


P.S.

Gods willing I will go through this last post you made, and hopefully you will carefully consider my responses, they are not new, but I have been studying, and listening to replies from Christian Scholars to Pastors, Ministers from Catholic to 7DA, to Mormons, to JW's and so on .. you name it over the past 25 years. So my responses have been tested by many intelligent Bible believers and even atheists who know the Bible. Not the ones who just bash it ignorantly, you know the type!?
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on March 08, 2019, 07:40:10 pm
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

God is Spirit, and no one has seen God at any time, because like our mind/spirit cannot be seen

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Now think about this question: When through the Angel of the Lord, in a bush that looked like it was on fire, God appeared to Moses, and throughout the 40 year of the Israelites wondering the desert, would you say: "God was with Israel", .. or that "God was with us" as in Moses, in their presence all the time with a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night?

How about later in the Ark, would you say "God was with us" in the Ark?
And now, God sent His son Word, became flesh and dwelt amongst us, who "revealed God His Father and our Father, his God and our God to us, so yes, he fulfilled Emanuel/God with us, .. but he was NOT God, just as Moses was not God, nor the Fiery Angel of the Lord was not God, nor the Ark of the Covenant was not God, and finally the only begotten son Word who never said he was God, yet in all of them we can say "God was with us".

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Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.


Ask yourself; "the next time Moses sees the Fiery Angel of the Lord in Heaven, will he bow down and worship him"?

But the son Word we are commanded to worship, because of what he did fulfilling God, that is his Gods request to save the world. God deified him as a god, just as Moses, and just as Joseph was worshipped because Pharaoh put him above everyone else in his Kingdom because of what he did. Pharaohs were worshipped as gods, and in the absence of Pharaoh, Joseph was a god, and people, including his brothers who left him for dead bowed down (as was the custom to give honor to kings and Pharaohs by bowing before them in respect)
In Heaven we will see Gods presence, His brilliance which is far brighter than the sun, but we cannot actually "see" God.

Next to Him, to Gods right hand side we shall actually see the Glorified Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords. Not a God, but as his glorified self.

God remains Infinite/Spirit, and to actually "see" an image, it has to be "created and finite", which is who the son Word aka Jesus Christ is. We are warned not to make a graven image of God, and making the created son Word as an image of God would be idolatry.

I know, he is the perfect image of God, just as we are to live our lives as images of God, as if God was living in us. The Ark was another image of God, the Fiery Angel of the Lord yet another, but we would not bow down to any of them as if they were God, .. but God in them.

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Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Yes, the son has power to forgive sins, because he is the perfect image of God and God gave him that authority, .. but he is Not God, or any 1/3 part of God, which would actually make God 2/3 created; the son + the Holy spirit 2/3 that the Trinity god is made of, and these were created, and can never be part of Infinite and Eternal.

Deuteronomy 5:8
‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;


There are hundreds of references Not-To make an image to identify God with, .. and anything and everyone who has been created is an image. As far as us, or Angels or the son Word/Jesus Christ radiating God through us, so people can see God in us is what God wants.

So let's not make God something we can accept, but we are to make ourselves a reflection of God; "God in us".

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Matthew 14:26-33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Again, what we don't read is: "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art God!"

But you see, that is how the Christian church made us read into all these verses, like; "Before Abraham was, I am" It does not say "I Am God" like it does in Exodus with Moses as God was talking through the Fiery Angel of the Lord.

Look up everywhere that God appears to anyone in whatever form He chooses, and you will see that "No One Ever doubts" if they are in the presence of God or not, not one. Jacob even wrestled with a man who he KNEW was God, and he made sure he acknowledge it. Read it for yourself.

But Jesus, they did as they pleased, and to make Jesus God, well, according to the Bible that's blasphemous. Because God would loose all respect, .. especially spit in the face of God, my Lord, forgive the Trinitarian Christians for they know not what they're talking about. And on top of that to claim to kill God, .. saying: "God died"!? Absolute blasphemy from those who invented this Doctrine. Not for us ignorant dumbed down sheep who were worshipping a Doctrine instead of God, and this while believing we were flying through space on a paper globe!

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Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Yes, son, as we are supposed to be: "Sons and children of the Living God" not God-Sons, or God Children, aka God.

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Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Again, who? Not God, but the son of man aka Jesus Christ sitting on the right hand of Power, capital 'P'. Funny how they always capitalize the word "son", but they forget who the Power is!?

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Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Yes, God told us to "worship the son", just as the Pharaoh told the people to worship Joseph. Believe me, if Jesus was God, NO ONE would doubt him, no one! They'd be pooping bricks in His presence, lying face first in the dirt as dead men.

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Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Exactly, .. "given power". But who could give power to God? Does Infinite and Eternal Almighty God need to be "given power in Heaven and in earth"? He would not be God who lacks power over all of His creation, right?

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Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

God does not sit to the right hand of no one, but the son does.

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Matthew 25:17-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Again, who? Does it say; "when God comes in His glory"?
Is there a time when God was without His Glory, where someone had to "glorify Him"? Only God can Glorify Himself, and He does sadly because there are not enough of us to glorify Him. This is why God so delighted in His son, because he fulfilled all Gods expectations, which glorifies God.

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Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ~ See prophecies about God being the only savior

Yes, all praise goes to God. The whole purpose of the son coming into the world is to let us see God through him. Don't forget who sent the son into the world. God did not send God into the world, no one "sends" God anywhere.

When someone falls overboard a ship and you throw a lifejacket to him, who is the savior, .. you, or the lifejacket?

When you hire a contractor to build you your house, who actually built it?

Or like this; I know many Contractors who built many houses, and never lifted a hammer, or put one nail into the house, yet he took me around to show me all the "houses he built". Then the Investor who he built them for, also shown the same houses that "he built", .. right? So who is the main builder? Is it the carpenters sawing and nailing the wood, or the Contractor making sure they got all the materials, and that they finish on time, or the Investor who hired the Contractor to build him all them houses every year?

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Luke 19:43-44 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem -

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Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

No One Appoints God a Kingdom.
So once again we have to ask: "Who is this talking about?"

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I have gone into great lengths to explain this in many threads, these are the verses that opened my eyes to the non-trinitary nature of God, and who exactly is his son!?
Please look at it again with an open mind, who is this talking about, is it God, or His son Word? It starts with: "in the beginning", so we know it's not about God for God is both Infinite and Eternal, has no beginning nor end. If God had a beginning we would have to explain "infinite regress", like "who was before God?" and so on.

Look my Brother, let's read it with the Trinity blinders on, it would read: "In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God.
Since it says "in the beginning, we know it is talking about Gods son, who Is the beginning and the end of all creation that God creates through and for. God has no need, so it's all for, and by the son Word.

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John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The only begotten son Word became flesh, was named Jesus.

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John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Again, who claimed this, did God, or the evil Jews?
It was the evil Jews, the Pharisees who were trying to find anything they could use against him, even made up "false acusations against him" and this was just another false accusation:

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


Where did Jesus say "I Am God" .. or "I Am equal/same as God"? Never, not once, and here was his answer:

John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Really, if he was God, you think God would say: "the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner". You will never find God getting authority, or permission from someone else, never. Or refer to Himself in the third person like someone with multiple personality disorder, right?

- to be continued -


Arius.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on March 08, 2019, 10:25:16 pm
Arius - The Word is God !!! The Bible says so. Therefore God became flesh.
Yes, it became flesh but retained the divinity of God.  There are a number of reasons this was necessary.  But let us first examine one argument at a time or we will become bogged down.

Thank you @Grace_Accepted, I wasn't getting notifications on this thread.
A divine god is one who's been deified/Apotheosis like Pharaohs, or like the Queen of heaven Mary, or Odin, these are deities. No One deifies God, for He Is both Infinite and Eternal Spirit that no one can see, just as our spirit/mind cannot be seen.

God did deify Moses and now Jesus and raised him above all Principalities and Powers, but no one raises God, for not only is He Infinite and Eternal (and I don't mean like the ones who live in, or for an eternity, or one that travels through infinity) but Infinite and Eternal IS God.

Infinite is conscious, this is why He told Moses he was "I Am", to show that He exists as Himself a Conscious Spirit/Mind.

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Jesus was God because the Word was God and we know that the Word was Jesus because the attributes of the Word match the Attributes of Christ, and verse 14 says as much.

We can also say: "Eve was Adam", correct? Because that's what she was before Adam beget her with Gods doing of course. Wo-man or from man, as was the Word begotten of God, or from God. So of course the Word was God, before he was begotten of God.
But if we go with that, then so were we God, for before any creation, there was "I Am" God Infinite and Eternal.

And who became flesh? Does it say: "And God became flesh?"
No, it clearly says "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt amongst us" and was named Jesus. God can take on any form at any time, but He can never become flesh as His son Word did.

I mean you do believe what the Bible says, don't you?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Was God begotten of the Father? It does not make sense, but accepting it as it is written, it makes perfect sense: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

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The Jews of Christ's day definitely took offense with Jesus several time, understanding him to be claiming deity and he never corrected them.

Oh that's Trinity Propaganda claiming that he; "never corrected them", .. of course he did, just read the chapter and you see him correcting them. And right in there you will also find why the Jews were making up accusations, because they were trying to find a reason to kill him. He NEVER claimed equality with God his Father, never! Please read it again? You may want to read my response to my Brother @patrick jane above on the same quote.

Jews said: "You make yourself equal with God, .. KILL HIM, KILL HIM!"
Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing, combining other books): "No I didn't, I said I was the son of God, and here I am trying to bring Gods children, yes, that would be you Jews, whom God so loved that He sent me to you to hopefully bring you back to Him as His children, you prodigal sons and daughters back to God! I take no authority to what I say, whatever it is comes from my Father, who is my God as He is yours!"

But you see the Trinitarians want to take the Jews side, that as if they were right by accusing Jesus of blasphemy for saying he was the son of God. Then who are they if not claiming to be the sons of God?

Here is Jesus painting a picture of the Jews, exactly how it was going to happen:

Mark 12:2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers.
3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated.
5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some.

6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those vinedressers said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard.


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He accepted prayer, worship, forgave sins and gave life to the dead. Lastly we have it spelled out in Rev 19:13 that indeed he is the Word of God.

Yes, son Word, Gods only begotten son's name is Word. He was the first thing, who God also made into a being that God created, and through him He created all things John 1:1-14. and This is why he is called the "First and the Last". God/Infinite has no beginning nor end.

Also, God gave authority to Jesus just as Jesus gave authority to his Apostles, .. but neither Jesus or the Apostles were God.

John 20:23  (NKJV)
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Matthew 10:8  (NKJV)
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


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In order to make Christ out not to be divine one must rely on the false dilemma logical fallacy.

Yes, I heard all the "fallacy"excuses to turn Jesus into God, so they could enjoy the make-believe that not only did they kill the Jewish King Jesus, but that they killed their God too. This is why the RCC Christians carry around the big idol of "Jesus bleeding and suffering on the cross", only the poor sheep are too ignorant to see it.
Also is why the Romans have at the Eucharist eating the actual flesh of Jesus, and drinking his real blood, a Satanic practice that is going on today, as well as what has been going on for millennia. Another thing that poor Catholic sheep take no notice of, cannibalism in the Christian church.

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In the end, I think that all people who relay on adhere to and believe in Jesus will be saved regardless of their beliefs in this matter.

If those "real" (Eucharist) blood drinking, human flesh eating, blasphemers of God by making Him their sun-god, and creating an idol of the mutilated bleeding, disfigured, dying body of Jesus back on the cross hanging there front of the whole congregation, and claiming that they killed God Christians will be saved too, then hell will be a very quiet and lonely place for Satan and his angels I can tell you that much!

But yes, that is a common Protestant belief, that God will save the whole world, no matter which entity/god/spirit they believe in, as Billy Graham and many other Mason-Christians said over the years; "unknowingly, they all worship God!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MZWug3QAvs



Arius
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on March 08, 2019, 11:39:09 pm
Brother @patrick jane
I can't get the buttons to work, like the bold, italic, underline, strike, so I have to type it out myself expl; [t] [/t]. Also I didn't get notifications on some posts, like this important one: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity

Can you please look into it, or tell me what I have turned off for it not working and not getting some notifications?

Love you Bro!


Arius/Evidence


P.S.

Gods willing I will go through this last post you made, and hopefully you will carefully consider my responses, they are not new, but I have been studying, and listening to replies from Christian Scholars to Pastors, Ministers from Catholic to 7DA, to Mormons, to JW's and so on .. you name it over the past 25 years. So my responses have been tested by many intelligent Bible believers and even atheists who know the Bible. Not the ones who just bash it ignorantly, you know the type!?
I'm sorry brother, we don't get notifications on this forum except for the new posts on the right. Do you see those? To use the bold and Underline and colors etc., just highlight what you want to bold and then hit the bold button. Same with all of them. In the second row to the left, the firstone is for images and the second one for videos to INSERT the url in between the bb codes. Do you get it?
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on March 09, 2019, 02:15:29 am
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, .. pick one, because Jesus made it clear who his God was. I choose the God and Father of Jesus.

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John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Yes he was, for he is the first and the last, so the son Word was way before creation of man on the earth, way before Abraham was, since God created all things through him and for him.

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John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As we all should be one with the Father, that was the son Words whole purpose for coming.
Right now Satan has us so split up, that the only way we'd come together is with his doctrine which is the original creation of Christianity, mainly; Roman Catholic Christian, with its foundation in the divined Trinity Doctrine.

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John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

A lie that the Jews made up to find an excuse to kill him.

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John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

And we as followers of Christ, the son of God Word do believe, and strive to have the Father in us also.

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John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And who is the Father? It is God, so Jesus is the gate to God. It doesn't say: "No one comes to Me, but by Me".

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John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Oh how true that is, because Jesus is the closest any of us will ever come to actually "seeing" the invisible Infinite and Eternal Spirit/God, is His physical son Word. And because we have heard and read what God commanded him to speak, we who have not seen the Physical Jesus can also see God through the words he spoke. We are truly blessed, because we no longer depend on sight, but faith in the word of God.

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

John 20:29  (NKJV)
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


.. because God is invisible Spirit/Mind, to truly see/know God is through His spoken word, which we find in the Bible as revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

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John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Exactly, .. God revealed Himself through His son Word aka now Jesus Christ. God did not reveal Himself through Himself because God is Spirit and no one has ever seen God.

John 1:18  (NKJV)
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [a]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


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John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

That explains it all, but this doesn't mean we are God, or make up who God Is.

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John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

.. when he was in Heaven with God his Father, when God created both the Heaven and the Earth with, by and through him.

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John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Finally Thomas "seen God" in Christ, unlike most of the other Jews Christ came for.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


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John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

the world may believe that thou hast sent me So are we to believe that God sent God?

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"

Are we also going to be added into some doctrine that make up the idea of God like the Mormons, for they believe they are all gods who together make up the idea of "God" like the Trinity does?

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2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Can't get any more clearer than that, For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and by this Christian Trinity Doctrine the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them!

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2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If Christ was God, then who was in whom? Was God in God, and God died to redeem us? I wouldn't worship a God who the Jews and the Romans could humiliate and murder, would any of you?
Remember God was in Moses, He was in the Fiery Angel of the Lord, in the Ark of the Covenant, none of them are mentioned in the Trinity? The Only reason they chose Jesus and not the Angel of Fire that appeared to Moses is because they seen that they could kill Jesus, not knowing that it is the very reason he came for. If they knew, they would not have killed him, not that they wouldn't want to, but because by Not killing him he could not have fulfilled the Prophesies, and the world would have no savior.

But now it's too late, so Satan changed plans, this time he attacks the Bible by confiscating it and twisting the message, making up doctrines of lies, and by making humanity believe that God died, which opened up the Bible to tens of thousands of interpretations, all under Satan's flag: His doctrine of the Three gods in one, where he made our One and Only Infinite and Eternal God, a threesome, plural, many.

to be continued

God bless you my Brother in Christ


Arius.

P.S.
maybe I already mentioned this, but did you know that Isaak Newton, who was made as the inventor of gravity actually was a follower of Arianism, friend of Arius, a non-Trinitarian?

Maybe not even a Christian!? I have to search more.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on March 09, 2019, 02:23:04 am
Brother @patrick jane
I can't get the buttons to work, like the bold, italic, underline, strike, so I have to type it out myself expl; [t] [/t]. Also I didn't get notifications on some posts, like this important one: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity

Can you please look into it, or tell me what I have turned off for it not working and not getting some notifications?

Love you Bro!


Arius/Evidence


P.S.

Gods willing I will go through this last post you made, and hopefully you will carefully consider my responses, they are not new, but I have been studying, and listening to replies from Christian Scholars to Pastors, Ministers from Catholic to 7DA, to Mormons, to JW's and so on .. you name it over the past 25 years. So my responses have been tested by many intelligent Bible believers and even atheists who know the Bible. Not the ones who just bash it ignorantly, you know the type!?
I'm sorry brother, we don't get notifications on this forum except for the new posts on the right. Do you see those? To use the bold and Underline and colors etc., just highlight what you want to bold and then hit the bold button. Same with all of them. In the second row to the left, the firstone is for images and the second one for videos to INSERT the url in between the bb codes. Do you get it?

Yes, it's old school, but like I said, I select it, click on the "italic button", and nothing happens. None of the blocks work.
It did in the beginning, but now I have to type it in.

It's OK, no big problem

Yes, I see the notifications, top left: "show new replies to your posts", .. right?


Thanks.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on March 29, 2019, 08:44:12 pm
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school until 5th grade so the trinity has always been ingrained into my mind. Until I started on forums and really just in the last year, I can't believe how many people to not believe that Jesus is GOD !!! It makes me question my own beliefs and all of the false teachers over on TF out doubts in my mind from reading so much of their garbage. Ahh, the life of a Forum-a-Holic.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on March 29, 2019, 10:14:24 pm
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school until 5th grade so the trinity has always been ingrained into my mind. Until I started on forums and really just in the last year, I can't believe how many people to not believe that Jesus is GOD !!! It makes me question my own beliefs and all of the false teachers over on TF out doubts in my mind from reading so much of their garbage. Ahh, the life of a Forum-a-Holic.

The bottom line is what is the penalty for sin?  Jesus bore that on the cross.  If it is eternal damnation than only divinity could have survived it.  If it was less than that and a mere mortal man could have ultimately survived it.  Than why not simply impose it on Adam and Eve and be done with the whole thing?
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on March 31, 2019, 08:54:17 am
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school until 5th grade so the trinity has always been ingrained into my mind. Until I started on forums and really just in the last year, I can't believe how many people to not believe that Jesus is GOD !!! It makes me question my own beliefs and all of the false teachers over on TF out doubts in my mind from reading so much of their garbage. Ahh, the life of a Forum-a-Holic.

The bottom line is what is the penalty for sin?  Jesus bore that on the cross.  If it is eternal damnation than only divinity could have survived it.  If it was less than that and a mere mortal man could have ultimately survived it.  Than why not simply impose it on Adam and Eve and be done with the whole thing?
Yes, sin and death entered the world by Adam & Eve, cursing all of mankind. We need to be redeemed and that was done by the blood of Jesus Christ.


Ephesians 1:3-14 KJV - 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.





Colossians 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;

8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on March 31, 2019, 09:47:40 am
Here is another thing to consider when deciding upon the divinity of Christ. Exodus 13:21 records God as being a cloud that was lit at night for the Children of Isreal.    And the LORD went before them in a pillar of cloud to guide their way by day, and in a pillar of fire to give them light at night, so that they could travel by day or night.

Who does Paul say this was? 1 Cor 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on March 31, 2019, 09:55:16 am
Here is another thing to consider when deciding upon the divinity of Christ. Exodus 13:21 records God as being a cloud that was lit at night for the Children of Isreal.    And the LORD went before them in a pillar of cloud to guide their way by day, and in a pillar of fire to give them light at night, so that they could travel by day or night.

Who does Paul say this was? 1 Cor 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Beautiful, and that proves the trinity again !!!
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Ted T. on March 31, 2019, 01:29:24 pm

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[size=78%] Yes...[/size]
[/size]
  The Septuagint translated echad, one or unity,  in Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One (echad). as εἷς, one, and εἷς is the same word used in  John 10:30  I and my Father are ONE (εἷς). [/size]
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Ted T. on March 31, 2019, 01:33:21 pm

 Again, I cannot edit - the links I see are only

Pages: 1 [2]   REPLY,    NOTIFY,   MARK UNREAD,  SEND THIS TOPIC,   PRINT



 
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on March 31, 2019, 02:30:01 pm

 Again, I cannot edit - the links I see are only

Pages: 1 [2]   REPLY,    NOTIFY,   MARK UNREAD,  SEND THIS TOPIC,   PRINT
I will promote you to Moderator. I think that should fix it but let me know, I want to fix this for you.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on March 31, 2019, 03:44:03 pm
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school until 5th grade so the trinity has always been ingrained into my mind. Until I started on forums and really just in the last year, I can't believe how many people to not believe that Jesus is GOD !!! It makes me question my own beliefs and all of the false teachers over on TF out doubts in my mind from reading so much of their garbage. Ahh, the life of a Forum-a-Holic.

My Brother P.J. I tell you this not of my own self, for I am no more than what Isaiah 64 wrote:
Isaiah 64:6  (NKJV)
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

But from the very words written in the Bible that: If you believe that Jesus was God, and that "GOD" died, then my Brother you better question your belief because your faith, your worship, your idea of God, His son Jesus and everything else in the Bible is worthless. You might as well go back to our Religious roots "Catholics" and kneel down before the holiest of fathers, the self claimed god on earth the Pope and kiss his ring, and ask for forgiveness for leaving his Christian church that he is the head of!

Just remember that according to the Bible: God is Infinite and Eternal. He is not some created "being" who lives in eternity, or travels through infinity and beyond, .. but Infinite and Eternal Is God. A Conscious Spirit/Mind who made in Himself the first of all His creations, which is His Word.
Just like all languages, just as words in books can create stories and even "worlds" like in sci-fi fantasy, God's first "language" He also made into His son, whom He properly called "Word".

John 1:1-14 and Colossians, and all the other Bible places I posted explains all this.
Yes, we are constantly bombarded with some really out of this world, or should I say: "Out of this Heaven and earth" ideologies, like we are in your CF and other Christian Forums.

No one so far has Biblically refuted my Biblical step-by-step picture of
1) who God Is
2) who His son Word is
3) how God created all things "though him"
4) who we, .. created in Gods image are
5) what the word "Christian" was originally used for
6) Why and how Satan used that mock word, and taken both the Jewish writings of the Prophets, and the writings of Christs chosen Apostles and created himself as God the old

Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’


and uses it again and again in the "son of God". See what he does: son of the morning / son of God all in mans worship of the sun. And there is no way anyone could deny that the creators of this mock Christian Religion, the Roman Catholics don't worship the sun?

To understand God, you will have to understand who you, if you believe you were created in Gods image, are? If we can't understand who we are, then how will we ever understand who our Creator God is? Satan is literally ripping us apart in tens of thousands of denominational pieces!

Don't try to find God in your body, you know how our Creator told Adam: "From dust thou art, to dust you shall return", but there is something else in that body, once you understand what and whose that is, you will understand God and the rest of God's creation enough to get a picture. With this wisdom you will start piecing together the rest of the Bible.

God bless you, and I pray that your Forums will blossom, and that it will remain a place where all walks of life, with all their crazy religious ideologies come together and learn, and finally see the light, that light of men who came into the world to reveal God, our God and his God to us?


Your friend and brother forever!
Arius/Evidence
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on March 31, 2019, 04:44:53 pm
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school until 5th grade so the trinity has always been ingrained into my mind. Until I started on forums and really just in the last year, I can't believe how many people to not believe that Jesus is GOD !!! It makes me question my own beliefs and all of the false teachers over on TF out doubts in my mind from reading so much of their garbage. Ahh, the life of a Forum-a-Holic.

My Brother P.J. I tell you this not of my own self, for I am no more than what Isaiah 64 wrote:
Isaiah 64:6  (NKJV)
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

But from the very words written in the Bible that: If you believe that Jesus was God, and that "GOD" died, then my Brother you better question your belief because your faith, your worship, your idea of God, His son Jesus and everything else in the Bible is worthless. You might as well go back to our Religious roots "Catholics" and kneel down before the holiest of fathers, the self claimed god on earth the Pope and kiss his ring, and ask for forgiveness for leaving his Christian church that he is the head of!

Just remember that according to the Bible: God is Infinite and Eternal. He is not some created "being" who lives in eternity, or travels through infinity and beyond, .. but Infinite and Eternal Is God. A Conscious Spirit/Mind who made in Himself the first of all His creations, which is His Word.
Just like all languages, just as words in books can create stories and even "worlds" like in sci-fi fantasy, God's first "language" He also made into His son, whom He properly called "Word".

John 1:1-14 and Colossians, and all the other Bible places I posted explains all this.
Yes, we are constantly bombarded with some really out of this world, or should I say: "Out of this Heaven and earth" ideologies, like we are in your CF and other Christian Forums.

No one so far has Biblically refuted my Biblical step-by-step picture of
1) who God Is
2) who His son Word is
3) how God created all things "though him"
4) who we, .. created in Gods image are
5) what the word "Christian" was originally used for
6) Why and how Satan used that mock word, and taken both the Jewish writings of the Prophets, and the writings of Christs chosen Apostles and created himself as God the old

Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’


and uses it again and again in the "son of God". See what he does: son of the morning / son of God all in mans worship of the sun. And there is no way anyone could deny that the creators of this mock Christian Religion, the Roman Catholics don't worship the sun?

To understand God, you will have to understand who you, if you believe you were created in Gods image, are? If we can't understand who we are, then how will we ever understand who our Creator God is? Satan is literally ripping us apart in tens of thousands of denominational pieces!

Don't try to find God in your body, you know how our Creator told Adam: "From dust thou art, to dust you shall return", but there is something else in that body, once you understand what and whose that is, you will understand God and the rest of God's creation enough to get a picture. With this wisdom you will start piecing together the rest of the Bible.

God bless you, and I pray that your Forums will blossom, and that it will remain a place where all walks of life, with all their crazy religious ideologies come together and learn, and finally see the light, that light of men who came into the world to reveal God, our God and his God to us?


Your friend and brother forever!
Arius/Evidence

It has been rebutted point by point several times. Understanding Christ's divinity is an Amazing eye opening Journey into God's character and love but for those that cannot hear it, it is not salvational.  It is edifying but not salvational.

You base your whole argument on several fallacies starting with the false dilemma that because Jesus was a man he couldn't be God.  You seem to have a huge anti-catholic bias that also creates a guilt by association fallacy that states Catholics are bad, Catholics believe in the divinity of Christ, therefore the divinity if Christ must be a bad doctrine.

Yet in the end, if Jesus were not divine, he could not pay for your sins.  Lucky for us he does it anyway whether we understand the truth about Him or not as long as we rely on adhere to and trust in Him.

It is crazy to believe that the one by whom all things exists isn't God.  If the one by whom all things exsist isn't God then who is?

We tend to view Jesus as only the son of Mary begotten of the Holy spirit but that was just the Word's incarnate phase.  Before that he was the great I am, the cloud that lead Israel through the wilderness. the one that parted the sea so that they might cross on dry land.  After He was finished doing what He had to do on the cross He has resumed His glory and complete divine Godhood.  In doing so the Father gave Him back all of the power he had laid aside to come as a babe in Bethlehem.  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth! Amen
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on April 02, 2019, 08:05:32 pm

It has been rebutted point by point several times. Understanding Christ's divinity is an Amazing eye opening Journey into God's character and love but for those that cannot hear it, it is not salvational.  It is edifying but not salvational.

I know all about the Christian Christs divinity, but obvious enough that Christians who defend the divine Trinity-gods don't, .. and no one has ever rebutted the Bibles claims that; from the divine come divinations, which is an abomination to the Lord! No one even tried, .. because the holy-Christian-divines are never to be Debated.
Besides, this post was for my dear friend @patrick jane, who are you, a Jesuit watcher, one of the Knight Templars making sure he does not deviate in his thinking?

Since you would not listen to Biblical Reasoning please watch this video that touches on the divine, divinations, and the gods in the Christian Trinity. But of course, that can only happen if the Christian spirits from the divine will allow you to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDFPQoqmYs


If you studied, .. no, if you "researched' history, you would have realized by now that the teaching about the divine is taught in Jesuit built Trinity Colleges, and Christian Schools of Divinity Yes, these were all orchestrated and built by the Jesuit Order aka Knights Templar whose head is the Black Pope aka Grand Master, wearing the white robe to cover the black.
Jesuit, the Knight Templar, the Illuminati, the Free Masons, Mormonism, .. these were all created by, and still are all under the "R.C. Christian" umbrella, yes, the same R.C. Christian who put up the Georgia Guide Stones, and yes, the 2.3 billion Christians are ready to take up Christs sword (Constantine's sword) and start the torture, beheading, and extermination of 6.5 billion people, lead by the same Knights Templar Grand Master, only this time as Pope aka God On Earth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vseEmfr88g

(just remove the word Christian when he is talking about the Believers, because he still doesn't know that the Jesuits he is referring to are the Real Christians!)

Quote from: Grace_accepted
You base your whole argument on several fallacies starting with the false dilemma that because Jesus was a man he couldn't be God.

Fallacies? Tell me then, who was the Angel of Fire talking to Moses, .. was he God?
If you say no, then I ask: "Why? Can't you imagine and believe that an Angel can be God? Especially if you believe a man can be God, then why not an Angel of the Lord?"

Quote
You seem to have a huge anti-catholic bias that also creates a guilt by association fallacy that states Catholics are bad, Catholics believe in the divinity of Christ, therefore the divinity if Christ must be a bad doctrine.

When have I ever said that; "Catholics are bad"? Show me one place?
Just because a man stole something would not make him bad. It is stealing that is bad. The same with divinations and going to Schools of Divinity to become witches and warlocks in the Christian Church so you can hypnotize the dumbed down sheep that Jesus was God, and you killed him. That is exactly the message, since in reality, it is our sins who put, and then killed our Lord Jesus on the cross. So by making Jesus God with your Jesuit School training, you kill God.

Quote
Yet in the end, if Jesus were not divine, he could not pay for your sins.  Lucky for us he does it anyway whether we understand the truth about Him or not as long as we rely on adhere to and trust in Him.

Oh no, .. you don't WANT to understand the truth about Jesus, instead, you are defending the Christian heresy that says God died.

Quote
It is crazy to believe that the one by whom all things exists isn't God.  If the one by whom all things exsist isn't God then who is?

Wow, .. where did you ever get this Trinity idea that; BY him (the son Word) all things exist? God created all things THROUGH him. Show me one place that says Jesus created anything?
John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.


Quote from: Grace_Acepted
We tend to view Jesus as only the son of Mary begotten of the Holy spirit but that was just the Word's incarnate phase.  Before that he was the great I am, the cloud that lead Israel through the wilderness. the one that parted the sea so that they might cross on dry land.  After He was finished doing what He had to do on the cross He has resumed His glory and complete divine Godhood.  In doing so the Father gave Him back all of the power he had laid aside to come as a babe in Bethlehem.  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth! Amen

Go divine your Jesuit lies to someone else, .. actually I take that back. In Jesus name I ask that you stop divining your lies to those who seek Jesus!
I know all about the Jesuit oath, and what Judgment our Lord Jesus Christ will bring with him upon those who lead even one of the little ones, those reading the Bible and seeking God astray!
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on April 02, 2019, 08:18:08 pm

It has been rebutted point by point several times. Understanding Christ's divinity is an Amazing eye opening Journey into God's character and love but for those that cannot hear it, it is not salvational.  It is edifying but not salvational.

I know all about the Christian Christs divinity, but obvious enough that Christians who defend the divine Trinity-gods don't, .. and no one has ever rebutted the Bibles claims that; from the divine come divinations, which is an abomination to the Lord! No one even tried, .. because the holy-Christian-divines are never to be Debated.
Besides, this post was for my dear friend @patrick jane, who are you, a Jesuit watcher, one of the Knight Templars making sure he does not deviate in his thinking?

Since you would not listen to Biblical Reasoning please watch this video that touches on the divine, divinations, and the gods in the Christian Trinity. But of course, that can only happen if the Christian spirits from the divine will allow you to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDFPQoqmYs


If you studied, .. no, if you "researched' history, you would have realized by now that the teaching about the divine is taught in Jesuit built Trinity Colleges, and Christian Schools of Divinity Yes, these were all orchestrated and built by the Jesuit Order aka Knights Templar whose head is the Black Pope aka Grand Master, wearing the white robe to cover the black.
Jesuit, the Knight Templar, the Illuminati, the Free Masons, Mormonism, .. these were all created by, and still are all under the "R.C. Christian" umbrella, yes, the same R.C. Christian who put up the Georgia Guide Stones, and yes, the 2.3 billion Christians are ready to take up Christs sword (Constantine's sword) and start the torture, beheading, and extermination of 6.5 billion people, lead by the same Knights Templar Grand Master, only this time as Pope aka God On Earth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vseEmfr88g

(just remove the word Christian when he is talking about the Believers, because he still doesn't know that the Jesuits he is referring to are the Real Christians!)

Quote from: Grace_accepted
You base your whole argument on several fallacies starting with the false dilemma that because Jesus was a man he couldn't be God.

Fallacies? Tell me then, who was the Angel of Fire talking to Moses, .. was he God?
If you say no, then I ask: "Why? Can't you imagine and believe that an Angel can be God? Especially if you believe a man can be God, then why not an Angel of the Lord?"

Quote
You seem to have a huge anti-catholic bias that also creates a guilt by association fallacy that states Catholics are bad, Catholics believe in the divinity of Christ, therefore the divinity if Christ must be a bad doctrine.

When have I ever said that; "Catholics are bad"? Show me one place?
Just because a man stole something would not make him bad. It is stealing that is bad. The same with divinations and going to Schools of Divinity to become witches and warlocks in the Christian Church so you can hypnotize the dumbed down sheep that Jesus was God, and you killed him. That is exactly the message, since in reality, it is our sins who put, and then killed our Lord Jesus on the cross. So by making Jesus God with your Jesuit School training, you kill God.

Quote
Yet in the end, if Jesus were not divine, he could not pay for your sins.  Lucky for us he does it anyway whether we understand the truth about Him or not as long as we rely on adhere to and trust in Him.

Oh no, .. you don't WANT to understand the truth about Jesus, instead, you are defending the Christian heresy that says God died.

Quote
It is crazy to believe that the one by whom all things exists isn't God.  If the one by whom all things exsist isn't God then who is?

Wow, .. where did you ever get this Trinity idea that; BY him (the son Word) all things exist? God created all things THROUGH him. Show me one place that says Jesus created anything?
John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.


Quote from: Grace_Acepted
We tend to view Jesus as only the son of Mary begotten of the Holy spirit but that was just the Word's incarnate phase.  Before that he was the great I am, the cloud that lead Israel through the wilderness. the one that parted the sea so that they might cross on dry land.  After He was finished doing what He had to do on the cross He has resumed His glory and complete divine Godhood.  In doing so the Father gave Him back all of the power he had laid aside to come as a babe in Bethlehem.  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth! Amen

Go divine your Jesuit lies to someone else, .. actually I take that back. In Jesus name I ask that you stop divining your lies to those who seek Jesus!
I know all about the Jesuit oath, and what Judgment our Lord Jesus Christ will bring with him upon those who lead even one of the little ones, those reading the Bible and seeking God astray!
Don't be so hard on GA, I don't think he's a Jesuit and he's our brother in Christ as far as I can tell. Good post brother and I will watch those videos soon.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on April 03, 2019, 01:39:36 am
I just re-read my last post to GA, and I guess, I was really hard on him, when my aim was not really him, but that Trinity point that to me is really important, yet no one seems to care one way or another?

I am really sorry @Grace_Accepted, I should not have used you as a target, but instead keep providing proof of my point.

Please forgive me, really. It's just so frustrating because I was exactly where you all are in this trinity. But I guess until you watch enough historical videos from all kinds of different people and can start getting a better and better picture until you are absolutely convinced the information matches the history I witnessed myself, and the news out there, going to a good church with family and friends, why should it matter.

All Christians are going to Heaven, except me, an Arian heretic.

Love you guys, and again Grace_accepted I didn't realize I went off the handle like that till PJ mentioned it.

I got to stop debating this subject, if God allowed it to flourish for the past 1,700 years, then who the hell am I to think I can make a difference?
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on April 03, 2019, 05:34:08 am
I just re-read my last post to GA, and I guess, I was really hard on him, when my aim was not really him, but that Trinity point that to me is really important, yet no one seems to care one way or another?

I am really sorry @Grace_Accepted, I should not have used you as a target, but instead keep providing proof of my point.

Please forgive me, really. It's just so frustrating because I was exactly where you all are in this trinity. But I guess until you watch enough historical videos from all kinds of different people and can start getting a better and better picture until you are absolutely convinced the information matches the history I witnessed myself, and the news out there, going to a good church with family and friends, why should it matter.

All Christians are going to Heaven, except me, an Arian heretic.

Love you guys, and again Grace_accepted I didn't realize I went off the handle like that till PJ mentioned it.

I got to stop debating this subject, if God allowed it to flourish for the past 1,700 years, then who the hell am I to think I can make a difference?
Thanks brother, and I was mostly kidding and GA can handle it. I like what you're doing and you make people think. Please don't stop debating the trinity because you're good at it and you make very good points with scripture. You're good bro, don't worry.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on April 03, 2019, 07:33:23 am

It has been rebutted point by point several times. Understanding Christ's divinity is an Amazing eye opening Journey into God's character and love but for those that cannot hear it, it is not salvational.  It is edifying but not salvational.

I know all about the Christian Christs divinity, but obvious enough that Christians who defend the divine Trinity-gods don't, .. and no one has ever rebutted the Bibles claims that; from the divine come divinations, which is an abomination to the Lord! No one even tried, .. because the holy-Christian-divines are never to be Debated.
Besides, this post was for my dear friend @patrick jane, who are you, a Jesuit watcher, one of the Knight Templars making sure he does not deviate in his thinking?

Since you would not listen to Biblical Reasoning please watch this video that touches on the divine, divinations, and the gods in the Christian Trinity. But of course, that can only happen if the Christian spirits from the divine will allow you to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDFPQoqmYs


If you studied, .. no, if you "researched' history, you would have realized by now that the teaching about the divine is taught in Jesuit built Trinity Colleges, and Christian Schools of Divinity Yes, these were all orchestrated and built by the Jesuit Order aka Knights Templar whose head is the Black Pope aka Grand Master, wearing the white robe to cover the black.
Jesuit, the Knight Templar, the Illuminati, the Free Masons, Mormonism, .. these were all created by, and still are all under the "R.C. Christian" umbrella, yes, the same R.C. Christian who put up the Georgia Guide Stones, and yes, the 2.3 billion Christians are ready to take up Christs sword (Constantine's sword) and start the torture, beheading, and extermination of 6.5 billion people, lead by the same Knights Templar Grand Master, only this time as Pope aka God On Earth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vseEmfr88g

(just remove the word Christian when he is talking about the Believers, because he still doesn't know that the Jesuits he is referring to are the Real Christians!)

Quote from: Grace_accepted
You base your whole argument on several fallacies starting with the false dilemma that because Jesus was a man he couldn't be God.

Fallacies? Tell me then, who was the Angel of Fire talking to Moses, .. was he God?
If you say no, then I ask: "Why? Can't you imagine and believe that an Angel can be God? Especially if you believe a man can be God, then why not an Angel of the Lord?"

Quote
You seem to have a huge anti-catholic bias that also creates a guilt by association fallacy that states Catholics are bad, Catholics believe in the divinity of Christ, therefore the divinity if Christ must be a bad doctrine.

When have I ever said that; "Catholics are bad"? Show me one place?
Just because a man stole something would not make him bad. It is stealing that is bad. The same with divinations and going to Schools of Divinity to become witches and warlocks in the Christian Church so you can hypnotize the dumbed down sheep that Jesus was God, and you killed him. That is exactly the message, since in reality, it is our sins who put, and then killed our Lord Jesus on the cross. So by making Jesus God with your Jesuit School training, you kill God.

Quote
Yet in the end, if Jesus were not divine, he could not pay for your sins.  Lucky for us he does it anyway whether we understand the truth about Him or not as long as we rely on adhere to and trust in Him.

Oh no, .. you don't WANT to understand the truth about Jesus, instead, you are defending the Christian heresy that says God died.

Quote
It is crazy to believe that the one by whom all things exists isn't God.  If the one by whom all things exsist isn't God then who is?

Wow, .. where did you ever get this Trinity idea that; BY him (the son Word) all things exist? God created all things THROUGH him. Show me one place that says Jesus created anything?
John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.


Quote from: Grace_Acepted
We tend to view Jesus as only the son of Mary begotten of the Holy spirit but that was just the Word's incarnate phase.  Before that he was the great I am, the cloud that lead Israel through the wilderness. the one that parted the sea so that they might cross on dry land.  After He was finished doing what He had to do on the cross He has resumed His glory and complete divine Godhood.  In doing so the Father gave Him back all of the power he had laid aside to come as a babe in Bethlehem.  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth! Amen

Go divine your Jesuit lies to someone else, .. actually I take that back. In Jesus name I ask that you stop divining your lies to those who seek Jesus!
I know all about the Jesuit oath, and what Judgment our Lord Jesus Christ will bring with him upon those who lead even one of the little ones, those reading the Bible and seeking God astray!
You are attacking a strawman created with a false dilemma.  You hate the Catholics so much that it has blinded you.  Your arguments are against tritheism as per your opening statement.

The fact is, I am so thrilled to accept the Grace given to me by God because God incarnate's infinite being and underived life was enough to bear my eternal damnation and not only mine but that of the whole world.  Having died my death he divided his perfect life and appropriated it for me and not for me only but for whomsoever believes on him shal have his eternal life in them.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on April 03, 2019, 05:04:35 pm
Quote from: Grace_Accepted
You are attacking a strawman created with a false dilemma.  You hate the Catholics so much that it has blinded you.  Your arguments are against tritheism as per your opening statement.

I don't hate Catholics, I don't hate NASA employees, I don't hate Trinitarians, and especially brother I don't hate you.
But words are just words, coming from an avatar named Arius. So to prove to you that I Do Not Hate any human on this earth, I extend this welcome for everyone and anyone reading this post:


This is an invitation for all to my house (wife and two children) for dinner
Call ahead before coming.
Menu - several Hungarian dishes;
Hungarian beef Goulash w/ home made noodles,
breaded pork chops (old country style) fresh salad w/ choice of dressing, fresh bread and drinks
My Filipino wife's famous home made egg rolls (chicken, beef and pork), also beef/chicken Adobo with oyster sauce, .. her also famous Pancit (Asian rice noodles with vegetables and small sliced chicken breast)

Or
Call if you would like something you heard about, but never tried before and would like to try it?
My aim, like my wife's is to please.

Quote from: Grace_accepted
The fact is, I am so thrilled to accept the Grace given to me by God because God incarnate's infinite being and underived life was enough to bear my eternal damnation and not only mine but that of the whole world.  Having died my death he divided his perfect life and appropriated it for me and not for me only but for whomsoever believes on him shal have his eternal life in them.

It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human". The Bible is clear how God revealed Himself throughout the Bible. And if God really had a spiritual/heavenly body like the Angels, or like His son Word, He would not have chosen to speak to Moses using the body of a Fiery Angel of his.

But now I understand, after 1,700 years of the most powerful organizations in the world: Jesuits/ Illuminati/ Mason, .. Emperors, .. pagan Satanic churches and other world rulers since our Lords assertion to heaven, no one on their own could just change what they throughout their whole life, including many, many previous generations were made to believe, and have sincerely mourned the death of God.

That is also 1,700 years of having been convinced that the word "Christian" was synonymous with "Bible".

Look how difficult it is to take the paper globe earth from peoples heads, and that has been only 500 years, while the "Christian/Bible" brainwashing has been around 1,200 years longer! Not only that, but just as the word Christian was made synonymous with the word "Bible", the paper "Globe Earth" was made synonymous with the word "science".

So if someone is against the paper globe, he is against science.
If against the Christian Trinity-god, he is against the Bible and Jesus Christ, and is a heretic who would benefit in being tortured to have him confess his heresy, than die in his anti-trinity blasphemy!

So do you want "evidence" to prove I do not hate people, but just as Jesus hated their perverted, unfair, unjust man-made dangerous ideologies that not only has caused pain and suffering over the past 1,700 years, but millions upon millions of innocent lives too?

It's just a call away.


Arius/Odon
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on April 04, 2019, 06:58:35 am
Quote from: Grace_Accepted
You are attacking a strawman created with a false dilemma.  You hate the Catholics so much that it has blinded you.  Your arguments are against tritheism as per your opening statement.

I don't hate Catholics, I don't hate NASA employees, I don't hate Trinitarians, and especially brother I don't hate you.
But words are just words, coming from an avatar named Arius. So to prove to you that I Do Not Hate any human on this earth, I extend this welcome for everyone and anyone reading this post:

My real name is Odon Sabo
44768 W. Desert Garden Rd.
Maricopa, AZ 85139
my phone is: (480) 603-7407
This is an invitation for all to my house (wife and two children) for dinner
Call ahead before coming.
Menu - several Hungarian dishes;
Hungarian beef Goulash w/ home made noodles,
breaded pork chops (old country style) fresh salad w/ choice of dressing, fresh bread and drinks
My Filipino wife's famous home made egg rolls (chicken, beef and pork), also beef/chicken Adobo with oyster sauce, .. her also famous Pancit (Asian rice noodles with vegetables and small sliced chicken breast)

Or
Call if you would like something you heard about, but never tried before and would like to try it?
My aim, like my wife's is to please.

Quote from: Grace_accepted
The fact is, I am so thrilled to accept the Grace given to me by God because God incarnate's infinite being and underived life was enough to bear my eternal damnation and not only mine but that of the whole world.  Having died my death he divided his perfect life and appropriated it for me and not for me only but for whomsoever believes on him shal have his eternal life in them.

It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human". The Bible is clear how God revealed Himself throughout the Bible. And if God really had a spiritual/heavenly body like the Angels, or like His son Word, He would not have chosen to speak to Moses using the body of a Fiery Angel of his.

But now I understand, after 1,700 years of the most powerful organizations in the world: Jesuits/ Illuminati/ Mason, .. Emperors, .. pagan Satanic churches and other world rulers since our Lords assertion to heaven, no one on their own could just change what they throughout their whole life, including many, many previous generations were made to believe, and have sincerely mourned the death of God.

That is also 1,700 years of having been convinced that the word "Christian" was synonymous with "Bible".

Look how difficult it is to take the paper globe earth from peoples heads, and that has been only 500 years, while the "Christian/Bible" brainwashing has been around 1,200 years longer! Not only that, but just as the word Christian was made synonymous with the word "Bible", the paper "Globe Earth" was made synonymous with the word "science".

So if someone is against the paper globe, he is against science.
If against the Christian Trinity-god, he is against the Bible and Jesus Christ, and is a heretic who would benefit in being tortured to have him confess his heresy, than die in his anti-trinity blasphemy!

So do you want "evidence" to prove I do not hate people, but just as Jesus hated their perverted, unfair, unjust man-made dangerous ideologies that not only has caused pain and suffering over the past 1,700 years, but millions upon millions of innocent lives too?

It's just a call away.


Arius/Odon
Oh yes, I recognize the name Odon Sabo from other forums. Good to know I have friends in AZ !!!
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on April 04, 2019, 11:30:57 am

Quote
It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human".
Love, My friend is not condescending. These are words of condescension stated as a fact when they are merely your misinterpretation of the language.  Christ is an infinite being whether you understand the word or not.  He is immeasurable and eternally existing in all dimensions of time.

And Why would you deny God is omnipotent?

Quote
The Bible is clear how God revealed Himself throughout the Bible. And if God really had a spiritual/heavenly body like the Angels, or like His son Word, He would not have chosen to speak to Moses using the body of a Fiery Angel of his.
The body of a fiery Angle? Why do you add parenthetical information to the text as if it were fact.  You must establish it as fact first.
Quote
But now I understand, after 1,700 years of the most powerful organizations in the world: Jesuits/ Illuminati/ Mason, .. Emperors, .. pagan Satanic churches and other world rulers since our Lords assertion to heaven, no one on their own could just change what they throughout their whole life, including many, many previous generations were made to believe, and have sincerely mourned the death of God.
You claim to love but have a tremendously condescending approach to your fiction.  I can understand holding opinions but we should all keep that in perspective and not cross the line to assuming that it is fact because we believe it. This begins to slip into holier than thou art territory.

There is one power in the universe that wishes to deny the Christ is divine.  Now if we spend some time studying and pondering on this fact we can come up with some pretty revealing things.  If christ is not divine then...

There will be many who do not realize this truth but put their faith in Jesus who will be saved but they miss out on the truths wondrous love of God they could have now.

Quote
That is also 1,700 years of having been convinced that the word "Christian" was synonymous with "Bible".
Are you a seer?

Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on April 04, 2019, 10:55:27 pm

Quote
It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human".

Love, My friend is not condescending. These are words of condescension stated as a fact when they are merely your misinterpretation of the language.  Christ is an infinite being whether you understand the word or not.  He is immeasurable and eternally existing in all dimensions of time.

Labeling someone "condescending" does not prove my interpretation of Infinite and Eternal is incorrect? Proving me wrong is, and I welcome any admonition, correction as long as it is backed up by evidence, not a man made belief created by a man-made doctrine. Also, just because a Disciple of Jesus is condemned to death for not accepting the Trinity doesn't mean he has no true love of his enemies.

John 8:48  (NKJV)
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”


You see, Christians accept the Jews accusing Jesus of blasphemy because he said he was the son of God, then as a Christian you must accept the accusation that Jesus had a demon too. It says it right there, if you accept one Jewish accusation, then why not the other?

But if we read why the Jews hated him, then we can understand why they tried to find any accusation they could invent to charge him with blasphemy. So accusing me of being condescending is not that painful. Here is why both the Jews, and the Christians hate Jesus and want to keep Jesus hanging on the cross, and the belief that they killed God, so Rome could now elevate the one who claimed; "I shall be like the Most High!"

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of myself, but He sent me. 43 Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to my word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


Quote from: G.A.
And Why would you deny God is omnipotent?

Again, the Christian Jesus sun-god is NOT omnipotent. He only wish he was.

Quote from: Arius
The Bible is clear how God revealed Himself throughout the Scriptures. And if God really had a spiritual/heavenly body like the Angels, or like His son Word, He would not have chosen to speak to Moses using the body of a Fiery Angel of his.
Quote from: GA
The body of a fiery Angel? Why do you add parenthetical information to the text as if it were fact.  You must establish it as fact first.

Acts 7:30
“And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”

Exodus 3:2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”


But of course, Christianity must deny any mention of the Angel of Fire that appeared to Moses because it would throw another wrench into this Trinity-god doctrine. It would destroy the trinity, making it four-ity, and since queen of heaven Mary, the "mother-of-all-gods" is part of this unholy alliance, this would make it a five-ity.

Quote from: Arius
But now I understand, after 1,700 years of the most powerful organizations in the world: Jesuits/ Illuminati/ Mason, .. Emperors, .. pagan Satanic churches and other world rulers since our Lords assertion to heaven, no one on their own could just change what they throughout their whole life, including many, many previous generations were made to believe, and have sincerely mourned the death of God.
Quote from: GA
You claim to love but have a tremendously condescending approach to your fiction.  I can understand holding opinions but we should all keep that in perspective and not cross the line to assuming that it is fact because we believe it. This begins to slip into holier than thou art territory.

Did I say these were my opinions? That's why I presented them as "facts". Even if I was tortured and tied to a burning stake I hope and pray I would stand on these Biblical truths, the first of which is that: "God Is One"

Fiction, or:
Fact: God/Infinite/Eternal cannot die. This Gentile made doctrine that killed Gods son, claim they killed God also.
In the Trinity, .. God died. is this fact or not?

Fact: for about 1,500 years, the Christian Church tortured, boiled in oil, burnt at the stake anyone who opposed their Triune-gods.

Fact The very Foundation of the (let's kill both Jesus and God) mock-Christian Religion is the Trinity Doctrine!

Fact: This doctrine is non-Biblical. It was invented by gentiles, who worshipped many gods, both before and after its creation.

Quote from: G.A.
There is one power in the universe that wishes to deny the Christ is divine.  Now if we spend some time studying and pondering on this fact we can come up with some pretty revealing things.  If christ is not divine then...
  • The ransom for sin is inadequate (ps 49:6-8)

I wish you could remove your Trinity glasses long enough to read verse 6?

Psalm 49:6-8  (NKJV)
6 Those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the multitude of their riches,


7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him—
8 For the redemption of their souls is costly,
And it shall cease forever—


Quote from: GA
  • Jesus could not have survived the Cross or God abrogated his own law
  • The cross is reduced to a mere blood sacrifice or is just symbolic

The man Jesus died, NOT God, or some Christian god/man! Look:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
..18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


It does NOT say: even so through one Gods righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life

Quote from: GA
There will be many who do not realize this truth but put their faith in Jesus who will be saved but they miss out on the truths wondrous love of God they could have now.

I endured persecution for 62 years for defending the Way and the Truth till this very day They are trying to kill me. My Gods wonderous love is not now, and definitely Not Here!

Mark 13:5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.
.. 9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.
.. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


Yes, the 2.5 billion Christians are enjoying the wonderous love of their sun-god Jesus Now, .. until that Terrible Day of the Lord when they hear the son of God say:
‘I tell you I do not know you where you are from? Depart from me all you workers of iniquity.’

Luke 13:23 And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many (2.5 billion), I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, (sun-god Jesus) open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from.

(because I never said I was God, or that my Father was made up of three persons. You have killed God in the hearts and minds of Billions of people, so now I tell you)
Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’  28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Quote from: Arius
That is also 1,700 years of having been convinced that the word "Christian" was synonymous with "Bible".

Quote from: G.A.
Are you a seer?

No, it's in the documented history of Christianity.


Arius
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Arius on April 05, 2019, 02:00:26 am
Quote from: Grace_Accepted
You are attacking a strawman created with a false dilemma.  You hate the Catholics so much that it has blinded you.  Your arguments are against tritheism as per your opening statement.

I don't hate Catholics, I don't hate NASA employees, I don't hate Trinitarians, and especially brother I don't hate you.
But words are just words, coming from an avatar named Arius. So to prove to you that I Do Not Hate any human on this earth, I extend this welcome for everyone and anyone reading this post:

My real name is Odon Sabo
44768 W. Desert Garden Rd.
Maricopa, AZ 85139
my phone is: (480) 603-7407
This is an invitation for all to my house (wife and two children) for dinner
Call ahead before coming.
Menu - several Hungarian dishes;
Hungarian beef Goulash w/ home made noodles,
breaded pork chops (old country style) fresh salad w/ choice of dressing, fresh bread and drinks
My Filipino wife's famous home made egg rolls (chicken, beef and pork), also beef/chicken Adobo with oyster sauce, .. her also famous Pancit (Asian rice noodles with vegetables and small sliced chicken breast)

Or
Call if you would like something you heard about, but never tried before and would like to try it?
My aim, like my wife's is to please.

Quote from: Grace_accepted
The fact is, I am so thrilled to accept the Grace given to me by God because God incarnate's infinite being and underived life was enough to bear my eternal damnation and not only mine but that of the whole world.  Having died my death he divided his perfect life and appropriated it for me and not for me only but for whomsoever believes on him shal have his eternal life in them.

It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human". The Bible is clear how God revealed Himself throughout the Bible. And if God really had a spiritual/heavenly body like the Angels, or like His son Word, He would not have chosen to speak to Moses using the body of a Fiery Angel of his.

But now I understand, after 1,700 years of the most powerful organizations in the world: Jesuits/ Illuminati/ Mason, .. Emperors, .. pagan Satanic churches and other world rulers since our Lords assertion to heaven, no one on their own could just change what they throughout their whole life, including many, many previous generations were made to believe, and have sincerely mourned the death of God.

That is also 1,700 years of having been convinced that the word "Christian" was synonymous with "Bible".

Look how difficult it is to take the paper globe earth from peoples heads, and that has been only 500 years, while the "Christian/Bible" brainwashing has been around 1,200 years longer! Not only that, but just as the word Christian was made synonymous with the word "Bible", the paper "Globe Earth" was made synonymous with the word "science".

So if someone is against the paper globe, he is against science.
If against the Christian Trinity-god, he is against the Bible and Jesus Christ, and is a heretic who would benefit in being tortured to have him confess his heresy, than die in his anti-trinity blasphemy!

So do you want "evidence" to prove I do not hate people, but just as Jesus hated their perverted, unfair, unjust man-made dangerous ideologies that not only has caused pain and suffering over the past 1,700 years, but millions upon millions of innocent lives too?

It's just a call away.


Arius/Odon
Oh yes, I recognize the name Odon Sabo from other forums. Good to know I have friends in AZ !!!

I make a lot of "comments" on YouTube that has my full name, especially on Evolution videos.

Yeah, I don't know if you ever visited the "Debating Christianity and Religion" forum? I was there for many years, over 1,000 posts, and they were long too. I learned a lot there, and made some awesome, very intelligent Frenemies.
Yes, it's awesome to still have the freedom to debate, met people from Australia, to Austria to UK and other European countries.

Well, if you and your wife ever come visiting this way, by all means, you are welcome to visit Bro! I would love to meet you, or anyone on either forums.

Is this the post you were telling me I didn't respond to?


Arius
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on April 08, 2019, 08:44:54 pm

Quote
It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human".

Love, My friend is not condescending. These are words of condescension stated as a fact when they are merely your misinterpretation of the language.  Christ is an infinite being whether you understand the word or not.  He is immeasurable and eternally existing in all dimensions of time.

Labeling someone "condescending" does not prove my interpretation of Infinite and Eternal is incorrect? Proving me wrong is, and I welcome any admonition, correction as long as it is backed up by evidence, not a man made belief created by a man-made doctrine. Also, just because a Disciple of Jesus is condemned to death for not accepting the Trinity doesn't mean he has no true love of his enemies.

John 8:48  (NKJV)
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”


You see, Christians accept the Jews accusing Jesus of blasphemy because he said he was the son of God, then as a Christian you must accept the accusation that Jesus had a demon too. It says it right there, if you accept one Jewish accusation, then why not the other?
You are completely missing the point.  Jesus would have stopped and corrected the Jews if He weren't divine.  Jesus would never have told the devil that worship belonged to God only and then accepted it when given to him from men and angles if He weren't divine.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. This was Jesus before He was jesus and while He was still called yahweh or LORD.



Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on June 12, 2019, 04:42:12 am

Quote
It is obvious my friend that you do not understand the definition of "Infinite" (even though I make it a point to explain it over and over again in almost every post), and that Infinite and being do not mix. And neither can Infinite be "fully human".

Love, My friend is not condescending. These are words of condescension stated as a fact when they are merely your misinterpretation of the language.  Christ is an infinite being whether you understand the word or not.  He is immeasurable and eternally existing in all dimensions of time.

Labeling someone "condescending" does not prove my interpretation of Infinite and Eternal is incorrect? Proving me wrong is, and I welcome any admonition, correction as long as it is backed up by evidence, not a man made belief created by a man-made doctrine. Also, just because a Disciple of Jesus is condemned to death for not accepting the Trinity doesn't mean he has no true love of his enemies.

John 8:48  (NKJV)
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”


You see, Christians accept the Jews accusing Jesus of blasphemy because he said he was the son of God, then as a Christian you must accept the accusation that Jesus had a demon too. It says it right there, if you accept one Jewish accusation, then why not the other?
You are completely missing the point.  Jesus would have stopped and corrected the Jews if He weren't divine.  Jesus would never have told the devil that worship belonged to God only and then accepted it when given to him from men and angles if He weren't divine.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. This was Jesus before He was jesus and while He was still called yahweh or LORD.
I concur.
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: Grace_Accepted on June 20, 2019, 08:09:51 am
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, .. pick one, because Jesus made it clear who his God was. I choose the God and Father of Jesus.

Quote
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Yes he was, for he is the first and the last, so the son Word was way before creation of man on the earth, way before Abraham was, since God created all things through him and for him.

Quote
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As we all should be one with the Father, that was the son Words whole purpose for coming.
Right now Satan has us so split up, that the only way we'd come together is with his doctrine which is the original creation of Christianity, mainly; Roman Catholic Christian, with its foundation in the divined Trinity Doctrine.

Quote
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

A lie that the Jews made up to find an excuse to kill him.

Quote
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

And we as followers of Christ, the son of God Word do believe, and strive to have the Father in us also.

Quote
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And who is the Father? It is God, so Jesus is the gate to God. It doesn't say: "No one comes to Me, but by Me".

Quote
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Oh how true that is, because Jesus is the closest any of us will ever come to actually "seeing" the invisible Infinite and Eternal Spirit/God, is His physical son Word. And because we have heard and read what God commanded him to speak, we who have not seen the Physical Jesus can also see God through the words he spoke. We are truly blessed, because we no longer depend on sight, but faith in the word of God.

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

John 20:29  (NKJV)
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


.. because God is invisible Spirit/Mind, to truly see/know God is through His spoken word, which we find in the Bible as revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

Quote
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Exactly, .. God revealed Himself through His son Word aka now Jesus Christ. God did not reveal Himself through Himself because God is Spirit and no one has ever seen God.

John 1:18  (NKJV)
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [a]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


Quote
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

That explains it all, but this doesn't mean we are God, or make up who God Is.

Quote
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

.. when he was in Heaven with God his Father, when God created both the Heaven and the Earth with, by and through him.

Quote
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Finally Thomas "seen God" in Christ, unlike most of the other Jews Christ came for.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Quote
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

the world may believe that thou hast sent me So are we to believe that God sent God?

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"

Are we also going to be added into some doctrine that make up the idea of God like the Mormons, for they believe they are all gods who together make up the idea of "God" like the Trinity does?

Quote
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Can't get any more clearer than that, For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and by this Christian Trinity Doctrine the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them!

Quote
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If Christ was God, then who was in whom? Was God in God, and God died to redeem us? I wouldn't worship a God who the Jews and the Romans could humiliate and murder, would any of you?
Remember God was in Moses, He was in the Fiery Angel of the Lord, in the Ark of the Covenant, none of them are mentioned in the Trinity? The Only reason they chose Jesus and not the Angel of Fire that appeared to Moses is because they seen that they could kill Jesus, not knowing that it is the very reason he came for. If they knew, they would not have killed him, not that they wouldn't want to, but because by Not killing him he could not have fulfilled the Prophesies, and the world would have no savior.

But now it's too late, so Satan changed plans, this time he attacks the Bible by confiscating it and twisting the message, making up doctrines of lies, and by making humanity believe that God died, which opened up the Bible to tens of thousands of interpretations, all under Satan's flag: His doctrine of the Three gods in one, where he made our One and Only Infinite and Eternal God, a threesome, plural, many.

to be continued

God bless you my Brother in Christ


Arius.

P.S.
maybe I already mentioned this, but did you know that Isaak Newton, who was made as the inventor of gravity actually was a follower of Arianism, friend of Arius, a non-Trinitarian?

Maybe not even a Christian!? I have to search more.
Invented Gravity?
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on June 29, 2019, 11:30:09 am
 ;D :D
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on July 11, 2019, 05:58:58 am
;D :D
✝🙏🍺🍕🐟👁‍🗨
Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on July 29, 2019, 07:18:35 pm
Is the Trinity in the Bible?


The Trinity Doctrine has been highly debated for hundreds of years. Is it Biblical or is it a made up belief?

19 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9rABfCRwrg&list=WL&index=11&t=0s






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Title: Re: Internal Coherence of Christs Divinity
Post by: patrick jane on October 17, 2019, 04:40:16 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sfp2QjOVwQ