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Christian Theology with DOUG and TED T. => Christian Threads => Topic started by: Sasha on August 08, 2018, 02:43:17 pm

Title: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 08, 2018, 02:43:17 pm
(https://21stcenturywire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1-UK-Civil-Unrest-2016.png)


Iíll get right down to it.  There are over 40,000 Christian denominations and that number grows every year.

Iíve attempted to shift doctrine, coerce individuals and centralize the focus on Jesus every since I was genuinely saved.

Love is the only equational answer that really matters.  I actually took the time to study up on the current persistent doctrine of the church of Satan and a suspicion Iíve always had was validated.

Two doctrines are exalted above all others there.  One doctrine demands that its adherents deny the existence of an actual Satan, while the other goes to lengths to explain that we should limit our Love as our ability to Love is limited.  The doctrine goes on to say Love is only genuine if a person hates, as well.

Now for a topic shift that goes hand in hand with that point.

The deepest fracture in Christianity comes from Christology.  Some say he was just a man.  Some say Heís God.  Some have complex belief systems that draw from lingual exegesis and systematic study of adoption.  Some say he was an Angel.

Hereís the thing, a spiritual fist fight breaks out over these differences.  The joke is always on us. 

Christians are told they will be known by their Love by Jesus Christ.  This is a pretty important point. 

Is ďTeachingĒ (doctrine) important?  Yes.  But, even teaching becomes useless when Hate enters the picture.  Iíll be sincere, I use words when I speak that would offend many people.  However, I have become growingly aware that my actions and words towards other people have enormous potential to build them up.  This is the core of minding our speech.  Iím certain that Satan aches to erase that God Simultaneously gave His life and Son to implore all to believe how deeply He Loves each of us.  (ALL Humanity)

Where there is discord, Iím growing to believe that the devils agenda is being satiated.   I donít have to be in agreement with someone to Love them.  On the flip side of the coin, when being perpetually cognizant of building others up, people that intentionally rip others apart stick out like a sore thumb.

What is my point?

My point is that I need to immerse myself into study about Godís mercy, Love and Compassion, then chase it with a refreshing study of how we are supposed to communicate with people that intentionally seek to bring discord, division and contention into atmospheres of Love and Unity in Christ.  I need to develop a debate style that is based on Love and Honesty that unflinchingly addresses the issues I addressed in the earlier part of this OP.

 Iíll close with a song I seriously enjoy.  The Lyrics are there if the type of music doesnít appeal to your particular taste.

Spoiler (hover to show)

If anyone would like to assist me in building the ďLove StyleĒ debate stance, Iím all ears and hope for scripture and suggested ideas.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Jon Wood on August 08, 2018, 03:02:59 pm
Iíll get right down to it.  There are over 40,000 Christian denominations and that number grows every year.

Iíve attempted to shift doctrine, coerce individuals and centralize the focus on Jesus every since I was genuinely saved.

Love is the only equational answer that really matters.  I actually took the time to study up on the current persistent doctrine of the church of Satan and a suspicion Iíve always had was validated.

Two doctrines are exalted above all others there.  One doctrine demands that its adherents deny the existence of an actual Satan, while the other goes to lengths to explain that we should limit our Love as our ability to Love is limited.  The doctrine goes on to say Love is only genuine if a person hates, as well.

Now for a topic shift that goes hand in hand with that point.

The deepest fracture in Christianity comes from Christology.  Some say he was just a man.  Some say Heís God.  Some have complex belief systems that draw from lingual exegesis and systematic study of adoption.  Some say he was an Angel.

Hereís the thing, a spiritual fist fight breaks out over these differences.  The joke is always on us. 

Christians are told they will be known by their Love by Jesus Christ.  This is a pretty important point. 

Is ďTeachingĒ (doctrine) important?  Yes.  But, even teaching becomes useless when Hate enters the picture.  Iíll be sincere, I use words when I speak that would offend many people.  However, I have become growingly aware that my actions and words towards other people have enormous potential to build them up.  This is the core of minding our speech.  Iím certain that Satan aches to erase that God Simultaneously gave His life and Son to implore all to believe how deeply He Loves each of us.  (ALL Humanity)

Where there is discord, Iím growing to believe that the devils agenda is being satiated.   I donít have to be in agreement with someone to Love them.  On the flip side of the coin, when being perpetually cognizant of building others up, people that intentionally rip others apart stick out like a sore thumb.

What is my point?

My point is that I need to immerse myself into study about Godís mercy, Love and Compassion, then chase it with a refreshing study of how we are supposed to communicate with people that intentionally seek to bring discord, division and contention into atmospheres of Love and Unity in Christ.  I need to develop a debate style that is based on Love and Honesty that unflinchingly addresses the issues I addressed in the earlier part of this OP.

 Iíll close with a song I seriously enjoy.  The Lyrics are there if the type of music doesnít appeal to your particular taste.

Spoiler (hover to show)

If anyone would like to assist me in building the ďLove StyleĒ debate stance, Iím all ears and hope for scripture and suggested ideas.

Personally, iíd Like to see Christians stop making every attempt they can to charge a brother and sister with heresy at the first sign of disagreement lol. Weíve all kinda become fluent at using scripture to shut down one belief while championing our own brand of faith. Iíve often wondered if the Bible was allowed to be understood the way it has, to actually encourage different types of thinkers in Christianity? Sometimes you need a guy to think outside of the box before you can solve a problem.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 08, 2018, 06:21:42 pm
Iíll get right down to it.  There are over 40,000 Christian denominations and that number grows every year.

Iíve attempted to shift doctrine, coerce individuals and centralize the focus on Jesus every since I was genuinely saved.

Love is the only equational answer that really matters.  I actually took the time to study up on the current persistent doctrine of the church of Satan and a suspicion Iíve always had was validated.

Two doctrines are exalted above all others there.  One doctrine demands that its adherents deny the existence of an actual Satan, while the other goes to lengths to explain that we should limit our Love as our ability to Love is limited.  The doctrine goes on to say Love is only genuine if a person hates, as well.

Now for a topic shift that goes hand in hand with that point.

The deepest fracture in Christianity comes from Christology.  Some say he was just a man.  Some say Heís God.  Some have complex belief systems that draw from lingual exegesis and systematic study of adoption.  Some say he was an Angel.

Hereís the thing, a spiritual fist fight breaks out over these differences.  The joke is always on us. 

Christians are told they will be known by their Love by Jesus Christ.  This is a pretty important point. 

Is ďTeachingĒ (doctrine) important?  Yes.  But, even teaching becomes useless when Hate enters the picture.  Iíll be sincere, I use words when I speak that would offend many people.  However, I have become growingly aware that my actions and words towards other people have enormous potential to build them up.  This is the core of minding our speech.  Iím certain that Satan aches to erase that God Simultaneously gave His life and Son to implore all to believe how deeply He Loves each of us.  (ALL Humanity)

Where there is discord, Iím growing to believe that the devils agenda is being satiated.   I donít have to be in agreement with someone to Love them.  On the flip side of the coin, when being perpetually cognizant of building others up, people that intentionally rip others apart stick out like a sore thumb.

What is my point?

My point is that I need to immerse myself into study about Godís mercy, Love and Compassion, then chase it with a refreshing study of how we are supposed to communicate with people that intentionally seek to bring discord, division and contention into atmospheres of Love and Unity in Christ.  I need to develop a debate style that is based on Love and Honesty that unflinchingly addresses the issues I addressed in the earlier part of this OP.

 Iíll close with a song I seriously enjoy.  The Lyrics are there if the type of music doesnít appeal to your particular taste.

Spoiler (hover to show)

If anyone would like to assist me in building the ďLove StyleĒ debate stance, Iím all ears and hope for scripture and suggested ideas.

Personally, iíd Like to see Christians stop making every attempt they can to charge a brother and sister with heresy at the first sign of disagreement lol. Weíve all kinda become fluent at using scripture to shut down one belief while championing our own brand of faith. Iíve often wondered if the Bible was allowed to be understood the way it has, to actually encourage different types of thinkers in Christianity? Sometimes you need a guy to think outside of the box before you can solve a problem.

So, Iíll go so far as to say Iím certain He allowed for scripture to be seen from multiple angles and not for confusion, as we know He doesnít author confusion.

He was very plain when He gave us the Oldest and Newest command, to Love one another.  I sincerely appreciate your reply and encouragement.  Perfect Love casts out all fear and Love covers a multitude of sins.  We who are forgiven much, Love much, those who are forgiven little Love little.  That L word is the Golden thread that runs through scripture, right next to the Lineage of Jesus Christ.

He takes hearts of stone and turns them into fertile soil that bares the fruits of Love to a hurting and grieved world.  He really can make Love out of nothing at all.  :D

https://youtu.be/qEd6QUbK2Mw
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Jon Wood on August 08, 2018, 06:37:27 pm
Iím definitely not an ďit can only be read one wayĒ person. Iím pretty sure it was custom made so that all of us can learn the same things. Some people are more keen on certain lessons within the passages, others take a bit of extra work to get there. I agree, it isnít for confusion. I think it is supposed to help us, even though we use it to fight each other all of the time. Debating and learning is cool, but some people put their entire faith into a specific part of their theology. Itís like they refuse to worship or acknowledge God if He doesnít work by their own personal definition of fairness.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 08, 2018, 07:44:47 pm
Iím definitely not an ďit can only be read one wayĒ person. Iím pretty sure it was custom made so that all of us can learn the same things. Some people are more keen on certain lessons within the passages, others take a bit of extra work to get there. I agree, it isnít for confusion. I think it is supposed to help us, even though we use it to fight each other all of the time. Debating and learning is cool, but some people put their entire faith into a specific part of their theology. Itís like they refuse to worship or acknowledge God if He doesnít work by their own personal definition of fairness.

In 1 Corinthians Paul asks if Christ is divided, but a large portion of Christianity is singing to this anthem.

https://youtu.be/WWH85xlhZbI
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Jon Wood on August 08, 2018, 08:04:02 pm
In 1 Corinthians Paul asks if Christ is divided, but a large portion of Chriatianity is singing to this anthem.

https://youtu.be/WWH85xlhZbI

Exactly, Christianity is made up of different people from different backgrounds, good! That helps us specialize in reaching others! But we get caught up in how weíre all different for some reason, we forget that we are Christians and focus on being an apologist for this, that, and the other lol. Of course, you know this and all iím Doing is long-windedly agreeing with you
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 08, 2018, 08:47:52 pm
Iím definitely not an ďit can only be read one wayĒ person. Iím pretty sure it was custom made so that all of us can learn the same things. Some people are more keen on certain lessons within the passages, others take a bit of extra work to get there. I agree, it isnít for confusion. I think it is supposed to help us, even though we use it to fight each other all of the time. Debating and learning is cool, but some people put their entire faith into a specific part of their theology. Itís like they refuse to worship or acknowledge God if He doesnít work by their own personal definition of fairness.

I agree whole heartedly that there is a central theology people can grow towards and at the same time patience and Love is utterly imperative, while the fighting and snazzy apologetics only seem to throw gasoline on the issue.

Some people will never budge from their view, but Love and listening can go a long way towards their very spirit.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on August 10, 2018, 07:13:52 am
In this brief clip from our 2012 National Conference, W. Robert Godfrey encourages us to pursue useful knowledge.


https://youtu.be/o1Fk7uGYy1c
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Jon Wood on August 10, 2018, 08:47:20 am
It does sometimes get to a point for me when iím Studying or looking at a topic and I ask myself ďAm I picking up any useful wisdom or am I really just sitting on a pile of fun facts and trivia over here?Ē Not to say that the Bible is trivial, but, sometimes I forget what actually matters and what doesnít matter as much. Theological study holds a great wealth of information, sometimes I wonder if I shouldnít start learning to sew with camel hair lol. If I put all of my knowledge in a coffer, would Jesus walk by and kick it over and chase me out some days?
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Billy Evmur on August 10, 2018, 03:47:10 pm
being emotional can be a great hindrance, I am sure God is emotional...yet the bible is not an emotional book.

Man is in his natural state body, soul and spirit...but his spirit is dead in trespasses and sins...so his soul takes over in matters that relate to his inner self, it is from there that our emotions [passions] reign supreme.

When we's saved our spirits come ALIVE

Our saved state is spirit, soul and body...we have to learn how to walk as spiritual in the Holy Spirit keeping emotions in their proper place.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on August 10, 2018, 06:24:57 pm
Army Of One....Calling All Brothers And Sisters....Its Time To Love❤

This video is from a Youtube friend and brother of mine -
Big Nix
: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK88fZqLdTXOeHOZMkD432A

9 minutes - Must Watch - Pure Love
https://youtu.be/YqIADKNvNYc
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 10, 2018, 11:33:37 pm
Army Of One....Calling All Brothers And Sisters....Its Time To Love❤

This video is from a Youtube friend and brother of mine -
Big Nix
: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK88fZqLdTXOeHOZMkD432A

9 minutes - Must Watch - Pure Love
https://youtu.be/YqIADKNvNYc

PJ,

I needed to see this so very badly!  Thank you!  It brought tears of joy!
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on August 11, 2018, 01:42:44 am
What's Your Scientific Theory for Love...? (Scientism vs Biblical Truth)



Science vs Religion (Ravi Zacharias)


7 minutes
https://youtu.be/wO4ydNlbQQE







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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 11, 2018, 10:44:53 am
What's Your Scientific Theory for Love...? (Scientism vs Biblical Truth)



Science vs Religion (Ravi Zacharias)


7 minutes
https://youtu.be/wO4ydNlbQQE







Theology Forums : https://theologyforums.com/index.php
Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpzjN3dF-_PnAc81SQVjqhg?view_as=subscriber
Pinterst : https://www.pinterest.com/patrickjane3169/
Google : https://plus.google.com/u/0/113527239869543729835
Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-jane-833769164/
Twitter : https://twitter.com/patrickjane3169
Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007669219364+
My small Forum : https://3169.createaforum.com/index.php
My Website : https://patrickjane3169.wixsite.com/website
Bitchute : https://www.bitchute.com/channel/xUZJpNWUz2T4/
Vimeo : https://vimeo.com/user87745391



Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -

Lennox is my favorite!   This is a masterpiece!  Thank you!
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: joechan82 on August 11, 2018, 01:20:49 pm
Mat 22:36-40  Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38  This is the first and great commandment. 39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No post on the Love of God, and by extension, our love for our neighbors is complete without these verses. According our Lord Himself, they are the first and second commandments.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 11, 2018, 01:30:11 pm
Mat 22:36-40  Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38  This is the first and great commandment. 39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No post on the Love of God, and by extension, our love for our neighbors is complete without these verses. According our Lord Himself, they are the first and second commandments.

Joechan,

Amen!  A resounding and unapologetic AMEN!!!!   All glory to God in the Highest!  Thank you, brother!
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: joechan82 on August 11, 2018, 10:32:35 pm
The thing you said about Satanists talking about love and hate shook me a little. I say that because I do see love and hate used as comparisons in the Bible too. For instance:

Luke 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I am absolutely certain that Jesus does not want us to hate our families, so this must be a comparative description. I'll bet that the Satanists define those word differently. Is that right?
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 12, 2018, 10:39:33 am
The thing you said about Satanists talking about love and hate shook me a little. I say that because I do see love and hate used as comparisons in the Bible too. For instance:

Luke 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I am absolutely certain that Jesus does not want us to hate our families, so this must be a comparative description. I'll bet that the Satanists define those word differently. Is that right?

Indeed.  Hate of carnal nature is rabbid disgust that perpetually desires harm.  Greek hate, and all the following hates that support malevolent intent fall under that usage of the word.

Hebrew hate roots to the idea of being wounded from a stance of Love, to the point of painful withdrawal.  It is along the lines of being grieved in Love by being jilted by a lover.

The very verse you cited, Jesus speaking, makes this distinction imperative.  Because Jesus bonds hate to sin in the Sermon on the mount and the apostle John says all of God Love, while those who do not Love are not of God, then even says that hate of ones Brother displays a direct lack of Love for God... we are forced to realize that God Loves All and desires us to do the same.  We are also shown by Jesus that common Love is a worldly trait.  All people are endowed with the ability to Love sincerely, by God, but Love for ones family and friends is a give and receive equation, while Love of all, including ones enemies, is Godly and operation as God does and desires us to do.

This places the clear focus on the ideal that God does not hate, but is grieved by perpetual rejection and disloyalty to Him and others by people.  As God binds romantic Love to His Love for humanity in all scripture, it is safe to say that God doesnít cease to Love a single soul, but can be wounded to the point of withdrawal by individualís actions and responses towards Him and fellow humanity.

This brings the Law of Christ (Romans, Corinthians) Royal Law (James) Greatest Commandment (Pentateuch, Gospels).. etc... to the forefront and seriously shows why Love and Hate are used to divide the Sheep from the Goats in Matthew.

Only the Good Teacher, Good Shepherd Loves completely selflessly, without demand of His Love being returned.  But we are to grow in Love, per scripture and this is what makes followers of Jesus unique.  We are known by this quality, alone.

Love, born of the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) within us, is the seal of Him, placed upon our arms, hearts and so forth.  We donít draw that it is a condition of salvation or a testable quality, but instead, a result of having the Holy Spirit, that we canít fight, but only naturally respond to through grace received.  The Potter shapes our hearts into compassion, empathy, grace, unconditional Love and a flavor that genuinely can turn the tides of this world that is growing cold of True Love, under the influence of the old serpent that rules this ďEmpire of DirtĒ.

Empire of dirt... that reminds me of a wonderful song that I reckon Iíll post!  :D

https://youtu.be/vt1Pwfnh5pc
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Billy Evmur on August 15, 2018, 05:22:18 am
Why don't people think it is God's will that the church be broken up into every which kind of assembly and grouping?

The devil loves uniformity or conformity

The way things are everyone can find the little [or large] family of believers that suits them and they can make their spiritual home there.

Paul did not like factions but he did understand that they were necessary.

When Jesus broke bread at the Last Supper He took the bread which symbolized His body the Church, He blest and brake it.

See? that Body that bread can never become one again, forever it is broken into ever increasing fragments...until we all eat it anew in the Kingdom
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Sasha on August 15, 2018, 05:33:01 am
Why don't people think it is God's will that the church be broken up into every which kind of assembly and grouping?

The devil loves uniformity or conformity

The way things are everyone can find the little [or large] family of believers that suits them and they can make their spiritual home there.

Paul did not like factions but he did understand that they were necessary.

When Jesus broke bread at the Last Supper He took the bread which symbolized His body the Church, He blest and brake it.

See? that Body that bread can never become one again, forever it is broken into ever increasing fragments...until we all eat it anew in the Kingdom

1 Corinthians 1 is of coarse my reference.  To be specific, I agree with you about the broken bread.  However, the bread is digested by all mankind in one way or another.  Some grieve God.  1 Corinthians 1 displays that Jesus didnít want disunity, but He knew it would occur.  I think doctrine has stood in the place of Love, and Galatians explains that the division isnít facilitated by God, but the flesh.  Can I reunify the Body?  No.  Can I become part of the solution, instead of part of the problem?  I think so.

The devil likes conformity within his domain, but Iím certain he divides the body of Christ to weaken it and perpetuate hostility among believers in Jesus of all flavors.

We are the temples of God, while the organizations are just gathering places.  Wherever two or more and such forth.  Personally, I see the whole of existence as my place of gathering, because all are currently purchased by Jesus, but have some heavy decisions to make.  Love beats back the lies of Satan and unifies mankind in Christ.

Division may be inevitable, but Iím done being part of it.  I now go to great lengths to support unity in Jesus and when rejection occurs, itís usually someone casting me aside.  Thatís okay by me.  I still desire the King of Peace to reign within my heart and within others, that unity, not uniformity, can occur.

All Love in Christ Jesus to you.

Spelling corrected?  :D
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on August 15, 2018, 12:01:13 pm
Why don't people think it is God's will that the church be broken up into every which kind of assembly and grouping?

The devil loves uniformity or conformity

The way things are everyone can find the little [or large] family of believers that suits them and they can make their spiritual home there.

Paul did not like factions but he did understand that they were necessary.

When Jesus broke bread at the Last Supper He took the bread which symbolized His body the Church, He blest and brake it.

See? that Body that bread can never become one again, forever it is broken into ever increasing fragments...until we all eat it anew in the Kingdom
So true Billy. Even if we are in smaller groups of believers we are all about Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 1:4-13 KJV -

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Billy Evmur on August 15, 2018, 12:46:07 pm
Yup, also the bible is a book of disputes, debates between opposing factions. Paul if he can't find someone to argue with him conjures up an imaginary opponent. He will often say things like "but someone will say..." and he presents an argument which he then begins to demolish.

But there are arguments between deadly opponents, we should be able to discern between disagreements between brethren and an assault by the enemy.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Jon Wood on August 15, 2018, 12:55:49 pm
Yup, also the bible is a book of disputes, debates between opposing factions. Paul if he can't find someone to argue with him conjures up an imaginary opponent. He will often say things like "but someone will say..." and he presents an argument which he then begins to demolish.

But there are arguments between deadly opponents, we should be able to discern between disagreements between brethren and an assault by the enemy.

This is basically what iíve Been trying to figure out how to say, so thank you. Somewhere along the lines, itís become commonplace to stop thinking of eachother as brethren. We often forget that the differences donít make us enemies. The real enemy is taking advantage of the confusion.
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on September 16, 2018, 09:36:20 am
The Truth May Scare You! (2018-2019)

 
New Release


15 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylsZ2X087Ak





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Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on November 21, 2018, 09:54:21 pm
NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR?


At the Time of the End, the wise shall understand. Dan 12:10

Understanding the expression "No man knows the day or hour" is not possible
by simply taking the English translation literally, because in the book of
Daniel and the Book of Revelation, we are given EXACT descriptions of
timing, relative to KEY events - such as the shutting down of the altar
sacrifices in Jerusalem at the MID-POINT of the 70th week. Dan 9:27

Jesus was asked, "When shall these things be?" Matt 24:3

His answer ties us in to a very specific event (The Abomination of
Desolation) which can be measured on our calendars: "When you therefore
shall see the Abomination Of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him understand:)..." Matt 24:15.

It is now clear that "no man knows the day or hour" does NOT mean "no man
knows the day or hour" as we read it from a modern-day English perspective.

>From his book "Signs In the Heavens" by Avi Ben Mordechai, he devotes a
chapter to explaining what "no man knows the day or hour" truly means from
a rabbinical Hebraic perspective. It is a figure of speech.

The following chapter contains edited excerpts from Avi Ben Mordechai's
commentaries and builds on them aiming to explain that the Holy Bible does
in fact reveal the "day and hour" or "exact timing" of our Lord's Return.

No One Knows the Day or the Hour?

Christians over the centuries have separated themselves from their Hebraic
roots causing the misunderstanding of key Jewish biblical idioms. An idiom
is also a figure of speech. When Y'shua (Jesus) uttered His famous words
concerning the Messianic Era in Mattityahu (Matthew) 24:26,

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father", He used a common Jewish figure of speech referring to a
specific Jewish Festival. In essence He was saying, "I am coming for My
Bride on such and such a day! Be watching!" What day could the Jewish idiom
be referring to? Keep reading!

HEBRAIC ROOTS

Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) was Jewish and lived a
Torah-observant Jewish life. Evidence suggests that He communicated to His
audience in the Hebrew language, in Hebraic ways. What does it mean to
communicate in Hebraic ways?


It means to think and talk like a Jew. In Y'shua's day it meant to speak in the language and idioms of the day.
Those who heard the Lord speak knew what He was saying and usually what He was
alluding to unless He was speaking in parables, which had their own
analogies. Of course, today's generation of believers struggles to
understand His words and concepts.


Speaking, thinking and acting like the
Jewish Rabbi He was helped His mission in bringing the gospel message to
"the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24).

Y'shua was quoted in Mattityahu (Matthew) 8:11 as saying: "I say to you
that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places
at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven".

Since we are talking about Jewish idioms, have you ever considered the meaning of
these words? Specifically, our Lord used and confirmed common Jewish ideas
about the Day of the Lord - the millennium - and its relation to the Feast
of Sukkot (Tabernacles) in Z'kharyah 14.


In speaking, Y'shua referred to
the Festival and its traditional guests of honour, Avraham, Yitzchak and
Ya'acov, called the ushpizin (uoosh-piz-zin) or seven shepherds (exalted
guests), invited into every succah (tabernacle) at the Feast of Sukkot in
the fall of the year.

The seven shepherds in descending order are
1. Avraham (Abraham), 2. Yitzchak (Isaac), 3. Ya'acov (Jacob), 4. Mosheh
(Moses), 5. Aaron, 6. Yosef (Joseph) and 7. HaMelech David (King David).
By mentioning the feast and three of the seven shepherds,

His audience
immediately understood the allusion to the Messianic age - "Millennium" or
"Day" of the Lord.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost" (Luke 19:10).
Again, in this simplistic phrase Y'shua, the Son of Miriyam and Yosef,
spoke of two things: His Deity (by calling Himself the subject of the
prophet Dani'el's vision) and His mission (by calling Himself the One God
Who spoke to Mosheh on Mount Sinai) as it is written in Dani'el and
Yechezk'el (Ezekiel):

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was One like a Son of
Man, coming with the clouds of Heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence (Dani'el 7:13-14).

For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I Myself will search for My sheep
and look after them (Yechezk'el-Ezekiel 34:11ff).

In the Gospel narrative of Luke 23:31, Y'shua said: "For if men do these
things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" In this
verse Y'shua points His audience, who had portions of the writings of the
Prophets memorized, to the verses in Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 20:45 to 21:7.
Without question, Y'shua's hearers knew He referred to Chevlei HaMashiach
or Ya'acov's Trouble in the Great Tribulation and warned His audience that
what they do to Him in hardness of heart now, God will do to the nation in
judgement later.

Y'shua's encounter with Natan'el (Nathanael) is recorded in Yochanan (John)
1:47-48: When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, He said of him, "Here is a
true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false". "How do You know me?"
Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the
fig tree before Philip called you".

Again, our Lord used a strong figure of speech pointing to a widely taught
Jewish expectation concerning the resurrection and the millennium. In
brief, He told Natan'el that he will be alive on the Last Day to inherit
the land promised to Avraham (Bereshith-Genesis 17:8). From Y'shua's words,
Natan'el understood he would participate in the resurrection since "that
Day" was yet future.


This is understood in the first century Jewish figure
of speech, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree", which
refers to life and study of Torah in the millennium (Midrash Rabbah
Genesis, Rabbah Song of Songs).


Y'shua also told Natan'el that he is like
righteous Avraham who received his reward for trusting God. This is
understood because of the phrase, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there
is nothing false". The millennial concept of the fig tree is found
throughout the Tanach including Z'kharyah 3:10:


"In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree", declares the
LORD Almighty. For this reason Natan'el responded emphatically to Y'shua
and His words, saying: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; You are the King of
Israel!"

God through HaMashiach Y'shua spoke to the Jews in many portions and in
many ways (Hebrews 1:1-2) relying upon known figures of speech, common
expectations and direct thoughts from Talmudic and Pharisaic teachings. The
concepts I addressed only scratch the surface, so-to-speak.


Every phrase
and word from the mouth of the Lord meant something to His audience. He
spoke with precision. With that as a basis, let us go on to one of the most
interesting Jewish figures of speech misunderstood by the Church over the
years. It concerns Y'shua's phrase,


"No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". In
context, He refers to the home-taking of His bride, the beginning of the
Messianic era and His millennial reign as King of kings over all the earth.
To understand this concept, we begin by examining its foundation.

ROSH HASHANAH

Chapter Five described the annual Jewish Festival of Trumpets or Rosh
HaShanah - the first day of the seventh month. A few themes linked to this
Jewish festival are resurrection, repentance, kingship, corronation and a
marriage feast.


This chapter shows another theme and convincing proof that
Rosh HaShanah is not only the start of "The Day of the Lord" (Millennium),
but is also the day of the resurrection! It has to do with the moon and its
29-day cycle of renewal.

In this period of slightly less than 30 days, the moon goes from darkness
to light and back to darkness again. This is not a haphazard occurrence
attributed to evolution or science.

God planned it for many reasons, one
being as a picture of resurrection and renewal. With each cycle of nearly
30 days the ancient rabbis understood that the moon was being reborn or
"born again" (Sefard siddur, Mussaf for Shabbat and Shabbat Rosh Chodesh,
p. 509 and 646-648).

NEW MOON

In Y'shua's day, the moon was so important that a Jewish festival was
proclaimed at the beginning of every month (Talmud Tractate Chaggigah 17b;
Shavuot 10a; Arachin 10b). This was called the New Moon Festival and in the
B'rit Chadashah, Rabbi Sha'ul (Paul) makes note of it (Colossians 2:16).
Even in the Tanach, King David provoked King Sha'ul (Saul) over it (1
Shmu'el-Samuel 20:5).


In the coming millennium the gate of the inner court
of the Temple facing east shall be opened on the new moon
(Yechezk'el-Ezekiel 46:1).


And finally in the millennium all nations will
celebrate the New Moon festival every month (Yeshayahu-Isaiah 66:23). It is
obvious from the Hebrew Scriptures that in the millennium God has no plans
to do away with His system.

Since it is so important, exactly what is a new moon? It is the opposite of
a full moon. Every month the moon goes through a complete cycle of renewal
called Rosh Chodesh, the head or beginning of the renewed month. Twelve
times a year on Rosh Chodesh, the moon always starts off with its disk
being very dark to the naked eye.


Over the course of 15 days it gets
brighter and brighter until it finally reaches a full white-faced disk or
full moon. Over the next 15 days it becomes darker and darker and finally
becomes invisible to the naked eye again.

The ancient rabbis saw a great lesson in this. Just as the moon has no
light of its own but receives its light from the sun, so we too have no
light of our own and must receive it from God.


As the moon goes through a
near 30-day cycle of dark to light to dark, so we need constant spiritual
renewal and repentance. Like the moon, we too must be reborn or "born
again" into HaMashiach and constantly renewed through repentance. This is
why God called it a faithful witness in the sky (Mizmor-Psalm 89:37).

If the moon is so important to God, why do we pay so little attention to
it? We have lost touch with God's faithful witness in the sky. But Y'shua
and the people of His day never lost touch with it. And as I previously
noted, not only was the new moon necessary for the Jewish calendar, it was
also a monthly festival celebrated with a feast fit for a king!


So, when
Y'shua said His famous words in Mattityahu-Matthew 24:36, it had
far-reaching implications. Here are the words of Y'shua in a few different
translations:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but
my Father only. (KJV)

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the
Son, but only the Father. (NIV) But of that day and hour knoweth no one,
not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. (ASV)
About the exact time, however, and the hour, none knows - not even the
messengers of Heaven; but My Father alone. (Fenton Modern English
Translation)

Failing to think like Y'shua and taking phrases out of Jewish context can
lead one to misunderstand His words. For example, in many places of the
B'rit Chadashah Y'shua knew the future and talked about it openly. In one
instance He warned His talmidim (disciples) about their future saying,
"See, I have told you ahead of time" (Mattityahu-Matthew 24:25). His
context concerned the tribulation, the destruction of the Temple, the rise
and fall of false messiahs (antichrists), etc.


If He knew the future in
Mattityahu 24:25, and the context concerns the Day of Trouble, why would He
suddenly speak as though He did not know the future in the same context
just 11 verses later in Mattityahu 24:36? Was He confused? Or was He making
perfect sense in light of the customs of the Jews?

Since the subject of our discussion is the new moon and figures of speech,
realize the phrase, "Of that day and hour no man knows" refers to the
sanctification or setting apart of the new moon. Without this
sanctification, the Jews had no way of determining God's "appointed times"
or moedim.

Twelve times a year a new Jewish month (Rosh Chodesh) was announced to the
people. We have no system like it today. We look at a calendar to determine
the first of the month; the Jews, however, looked at the moon.


This system
of chronology was given to the Jews to know precisely when the Holy
festivals (moedim) would fall (there are still eight of them; seven
appointed times and Shabbat). The moon was the faithful Jewish calendar or
witness in the sky and 12 times a year was sanctified as the basis of the
Jewish stellar calendar.

GOD'S APPOINTED TIMES

Because the moon was so important for Jewish date - setting, the authorities
in charge of announcing the new moon in Y'rushalayim took great care to
ensure the first day of the month was announced on time. To correctly
announce the first day of the month, established by the new moon, was one
of the Sanhedrin's greatest responsibilities. They had to ensure the people
knew when the first of the month began 12 times a year! Therefore God said
to the leaders of Israel:

These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you
shall proclaim at the times appointed for them (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:4).

In other words, God gave the Sanhedrin authority to announce and sanctify
the new moon to the people. Its proclamation on earth was supported by God
in Heaven (c.f. Mattityahu 18:18-20 where the Jewish context supports a
believers' Sanhedrin as seen in Acts 15).


As soon as the new moon was
announced, the first day of the month began. Once the beginning of the new
month was established, the festivals and weekly Shabbats for the upcoming
month were sanctified for observance. In Hebrew, those observances have
always been called "appointed  times" or moedim, literally "a sacred and
set time".


From God's perspective, the appointed times belong to Him
(Midrash Rabbah Numbers, Vol 2.21.25, p. 852) and no one has the authority
to change the celebration of an appointed time.


To do so was a serious
matter and great sin. Appointed times had to be kept because of their
Messianic implications.

Further in Vayikrah (Leviticus) 23:4, notice the phrase, "holy
convocation". The phrase in Hebrew is mikraw kodesh, better translated,
"holy convocation and rehearsal". In other words, God's appointed times are
actually "holy rehearsals" set apart to reflect events in the Messianic
era. God said to the people,


"Pay attention! On this day I am going to do
something! Wake-up! The Jews were to know and practice all of God's mikraot
or holy convocations. This is the essence of Rav Sha'ul's words that the
Shabbat, new moons and festivals, "are a shadow of things to come; the body
of Mashiach" (Colossians 2:17).

Twice a year, in the spring and fall, there were several appointed times
and specific days of holy convocation dedicated to the Lord. The new moon
was the key in being able to fulfill those set times, holy convocations and
rehearsals.


For example, when the new moon was announced on the first day
of Nisan, also called Aviv, the people knew when to observe the holy
convocations and set times of the 10th (Shemot-Exodus 12:3), 14th and 15th
(Shemot-Exodus 12:6; Bamidbar-Numbers 33:3), 16th (Vayikrah-Leviticus
23:15), and finally the 21st.


In the same way, when the new moon was
announced on the first day of Tishri also called Ethanim, the people knew
when to observe the Holy convocations of the 1st  (Vayikrah-Leviticus
23:23), 10th  (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:26), 15th  (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:39),
and 22nd  (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:36).


Thus from the announcement of the new
moon to the festival dates which followed, it was only a matter of counting
the right number of days. In a moment you will understand how this applies
to the phrase that Y'shua spoke concerning His coming again.

THE SANHEDRIN AND THE TWO WITNESSES

The Mishnah, also referred to as the Oral Law, dealt with the legal
elements of daily Jewish religious life, in Hebrew called halachah. In the
treasure of the first and second century halachah we find many explanations
to help us understand the Torah particularly in Y'shua's day since it was
still oral then.


In volume two called "moed" or festival, tractate Rosh
HaShanah teaches us about the Sanhedrin and its selection process of two
witnesses who would tell us when the new moon arrived. Once a month the
Sanhedrin discussed when to proclaim the new moon. They did this through
the agency of two witnesses, the element of all legal transactions in
Judaism.

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any
sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the
mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.   Deut 19:15

The men were important because by their witness, Israel celebrated God's
appointed times. They had to be of good character and were always treated
with great honour.


They had special privileges such as authorization to
ride into Y'rushalayim on horseback on the Shabbat to bring the good news
of the new moon festivities! The men had special status because they were
the confirmation that Y'hudah (Judaea)  depended on for the correct timing
of the new month and the festivals.

Rosh HaShanah Chapter 2, Mishnah 5 reads: There was a large court in
Jerusalem called Beth Ya'azek. There all the witnesses used to assemble and
the Beth Din used to examine them. They used to entertain them lavishly
there so that they should have an inducement to come. (The witnesses were
allowed to break the Shabbat travel restrictions for this one purpose lest
they might be reluctant to come and give the essential evidence of the
sighting of the new moon).

Continuing in Chapter 2, Mishnah 6: How do they test the witnesses? The
pair who arrive first are tested first. The senior of them is brought in
and they say to him, tell us how you saw the moon - in front of the sun or
behind the sun? To the north of it or the south? How big was it, and in
which direction was it inclined?


And how broad was it? If he says (he saw
it) in front of the sun, his evidence is rejected. After that they would
bring in the second and test him.


If their accounts tallied, their evidence
was accepted, and the other pairs were only questioned briefly, not because
they were required at all, but so that they should not be disappointed,
(and) so that they should not be dissuaded from coming.

In qualifying the witnesses, the Sanhedrin used the following criteria:
They never arrived at the same time.
They were never questioned at the same time.
There were always two new witnesses each month.

In short, the two qualified witnesses usually stood before the Nassi or
President of the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Court) to give account of the
moon's appearance prior to its becoming total dark (Moed Rosh HaShanah,
Chapter 3, Mishnah 1).


Just before the moon's disk enters total darkness,
there are tiny slivers of white on the edges of the waning disk. These were
called the "horns" of the moon.

Correctly sighting the "horns" (on the
waning crescent) determined the beginning of the new month. Once the two
witnesses were qualified and questioned, if the President (who had
knowledge of astronomy) was convinced their observation was accurate, he
publicly sanctified the start of the new month.

After careful scrutiny to determine the official arrival of the new moon,
the Nassi or President of the Sanhedrin proclaimed Rosh Chodesh with the
words: "Sanctified", and all the people repeat after him, "Sanctified,
sanctified". After the proclamation, the Sanhedrin ordered watchmen on the
nearby hillsides to light fires and thus inform the Jews in all of Y'hudah
(Judaea), Shomron (Samaria), Egypt, Babylon and the galut (diaspora) that
the new month had begun. That started the festival of the New Moon and
counting of the next 29- days to the next new month proclamation.

Again, once the Sanhedrin set Rosh Chodesh, or the beginning of the new
month by sighting the new moon, the rest of the festivals were calculated.
However, the seventh month, Tishri, was particularly important because it
was the only month that had a holy convocation or appointed time on the
first day of the month.


This posed a unique problem. The first day of
Tishri was the appointed time called Rosh HaShanah, the Feast of Trumpets
(Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:24). Yet no one could begin observing the festival
until they heard those famous words from the President of the Sanhedrin,
"Sanctified!"

No one in Israel could plan for the first day of the seventh month Tishri,
called Yom Teruah or the Feast of Trumpets (also called Rosh HaShanah).
When they knew how many days to count to a festival, that would be easy.
But:

HOW COULD THEY PLAN FOR A FESTIVAL THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW AT WHAT DAY OR
HOUR IT WOULD PUBLICALLY BE ANNOUNCED AND THUS BEGIN?

This was unique to Rosh HaShanah and dependent upon the testimony of the
two witnesses. Prophetically, we are informed of two important witnesses
during the Great Tribulation:

And I will give power unto My Two Witnesses, and they will prophesy 1260
days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:3

Of course, anyone could look up into the twilight or early morning sky and,
if they looked hard enough, see the new moon or at least its "horns". And
certainly an astute observer knew when about 29- days were completed since
the previous Rosh Chodesh.

But recall, ONLY THE SANHEDRIN NASSI had the
authority to proclaim the first of Tishri, which was already established as
a technical procedure.


Once proclaimed, the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh
HaShanah) commenced. Until that public announcement by the Nassi, everyone
had to wait before they could begin the observance of the festival. No one
could begin the festival beforehand!


Thus, we can more clearly see the
analogy Jesus made with His words: "But of that day and hour knoweth no
man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" was in regards to
this important festival of Rosh HaShanah.

**********************************************************************

To educate, train and equip for study both the Jew and
Non-Jew in the Rich Hebraic Heritage of our Faith.

Please visit the Hebraic Roots Global Network
Web Site located at:

http://www.hebroots.org/
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on June 06, 2020, 09:49:25 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDeRHSxFbQ&list=WL&index=14&t=0s
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on August 04, 2020, 01:42:14 pm
tough times
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on September 21, 2020, 04:00:04 pm
tough times
Yes
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on October 11, 2020, 10:17:23 am
tough times
Yes
:(
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: patrick jane on October 16, 2020, 08:14:56 am
tough times
Yes
:(
8)
Title: Re: A Fractured Community
Post by: Jesus Truth on October 18, 2020, 08:39:21 am
tough times
Yes
:(
8)
Shattered