patrick jane forums

Christian Theology with DOUG and TED T. => Christian Theology => Topic started by: Olde Tymer on October 26, 2018, 05:39:32 am


Title: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 26, 2018, 05:39:32 am
.
CONTACT

For a home-spun religion whose origin is relatively recent, the Watchtower Society has done pretty well for itself. Beginning with one man shortly after the American Civil War, it currently numbers approximately 8.2 active members spread out in approximately 118,000 congregations worldwide. (Congregations have been displaced and consolidated in recent years due to the Society liquidating a number of Kingdom Halls in order to settle its legal obligations.)

My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and inexperienced; and thus assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water coming down my dad's driveway was a typical Christian.

But when I talked this over with an elder; he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled "30 Years A Watchtower Slave" by William J. Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker (call him Pete) was an ex JW who had been in the Watchtower Society system for near three decades before terminating his involvement; so he knew the twists and turns of its doctrines pretty good.

Pete didn't train us to hammer the Society's missionaries in a discussion because even if you best them scripture for scripture, they will not give up on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly convinced that the Society is the voice of God, while your voice has no more validity than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From The Scriptures".

(This was all before the internet and the ready volumes of information available on YouTube.)

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although the Watchtower Society uses many of classical Christianity's standard terms and phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in the Witness mind than what you'd expect because the Society has re-defined the meanings of those terminologies.

So your first challenge in coping with Watchtower Society teachings is to scale the language barrier. That by itself is an Herculean task because you'll not only be up against a tangle of semantics, but also a Jumanji of twisted scriptures, double speak, humanistic reasoning, rationalizing, and clever sophistry.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 26, 2018, 05:42:11 am
.
STARING INTO THE ABYSS

Raymond Victor Franz was a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses from October 20, 1971 until his removal on May 22, 1980, and served at the organization's world headquarters for fifteen years, from 1965 until 1980.

Mr. Franz resigned, and stated that the request for his resignation, and his subsequent dis-fellowshipping, resulted from allegations of apostasy.

Following his departure, Mr. Franz wrote a book titled "Crisis Of Conscience" relating his personal experiences with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and his views on Jehovah's Witness teachings. It's a bit expensive in print form, but as of the date of this writing could be heard audibly for free on YouTube and/or as a free pdf download.

Mr. Franz's book, and his interviews, are helpful aids for people wondering if they made the right decision leaving the Society's fold. It's also helpful for people thinking about becoming a Jehovah's Witness but not too sure whether they'd be making a really big, life-changing mistake not easily corrected.

_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on October 26, 2018, 07:40:04 am
Before even trying to talk to a JW about scriptures, one needs to help them to take a look at the leaders of that organization. Most JWs know very little about the Governing Body and what they're really doing. JWs don't question the Governing Body because that is viewed as blasphemy and is a disfellowhipping offense.

JWs live in fear and they are mentally shackled. Literal chains and shackles aren't even needed. That's how successful the Governing Body is with their indoctrination process. JWs need to be helped to understand what the foundation of that organization really is and it's a business, a corporation with a religious front. The Watchtower Society has investments in many companies which if the average JW knew what those companies are they would be shocked and appalled. But JWs are discouraged from digging into the truth through fear tactics, threats, and emotional blackmail. Families are torn apart and lives are destroyed by that organization.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 26, 2018, 10:25:56 am
.
HOPE

Many of the Jehovah's Witness missionaries going door-to-door throughout the world are honestly, and sincerely, hoping to enter the kingdom of God; which is why I'm convinced that Christians really ought to know something about New Testament hope before engaging JWs in a conversation about it.

● 1Pet 3:15 . . Always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you,

The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in Peter's command is elpis (el pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and confidence.

Webster's definition of hope as a verb is very similar: 1) to desire with expectation of obtainment, and 2) to expect with confidence and trust. Note the elements of expectation, and confidence, and trust.

Webster's definition of hope as a noun is: 1) a desire accompanied by expectation of, or belief in, fulfillment, and 2) expectation of fulfillment or success. Note the elements of expectation, and belief.

In other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your fingers hope.

So, unless someone knows for proof-positive, beyond even the slightest glimmer of sensible doubt, that they have a passport to the kingdom of God locked in and irrevocable, then of course it is impossible for them to comply with Peter's instructions seeing as they would not yet have the kind of hope about which he wrote.

● Rom 12:12 . . Rejoice in the hope.

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; no; but they do have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.


BTW: Elpis hope is one of the three principal elements of Christianity. (1Cor 13:13)

It's also a "calling". (Eph 4:4)

When people are lacking the kind of hope described by the Greek word elpis, then I believe it is safe to assume that they have not yet responded to God's call; or worse, He has not called them; and quite possibly never will.

● Rom 9:15-16 . . He says to Moses: I will have mercy upon whomever I do have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I do show compassion. So, then, it depends not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on October 26, 2018, 12:23:02 pm
Yes I agree. JWs are sincerely and honestly hoping to enter the Kingdom of God. However there is a hierarchy mentality in that organization and JWs are taught that only 144,000 will go to heaven. The Governing Body claim to be at the top of that hierarchy and they claim to be of the "anointed" and part of the 144,000 along with the previous Governing Body members and some others out of the JWs since it was founded. They teach all JWs that the rest of them will live on the new earth while those that make up the 144,000 will rule with Jesus in heaven over them. They also teach that anyone who is not a JW is part of Babylon the Great or Satan's system of false religion who are doomed to be destroyed in Armageddon. They teach doom and gloom and stress fear. They are authoritarian and legalistic.

They have what they call the memorial of Christ's death once a year and only those "anointed" who are part of the remaining 144,000 are allowed to partake of the emblems of the wine and bread. In each congregation about 99% of those attending will not partake but will simply pass the wine and bread around. There may be one or two who will partake out of the entire congregation. It is said by former JWs that the way this memorial is conducted is a way to get the majority to reject Jesus.

The Governing Body does not teach one hope. They teach the heavenly hope and the earthly hope. So JWs do not believe in one hope. They accept what the Governing Body teaches about that because they fear them and the power they have over all JWs. If JWs disagree or question this then they are disfellowshipped and then shunned even by family members who are JWs. The family members then view them as dead and treat them that way.

JWs must realize first of all that they are being misled, deceived and lied to by the Governing body before they will be willing to discuss scriptures. That is what blocks them from listening to anyone else wanting to share scriptures with them.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 26, 2018, 02:32:37 pm
.
PASSPORT TO GOD'S KINGDOM ON EARTH

It's both tragic and ironic that the Watchtower Society's rank and file missionaries go worldwide advertising a kingdom that they themselves will never be allowed to enter. Here's why.

At John 3:3-12, Christ and a Jewish rabbi named Nicodemus discussed what Christ labeled "earthly things".

The primary earthly thing discussed was the kingdom of God. The other earthly thing discussed was a spirit-birth requirement to enter it. In other words: God's kingdom on earth, and a spirit birth, are joined at the hip.

The Watchtower Society's earthly class (a.k.a. the hewers of wood and haulers of water; viz: non-anointed JWs) aren't spirit-born now, nor do they ever expect to be-- not in this life, nor in the next --yet they hope to enter God's kingdom on earth. However, seeing as how the spirit-birth requirement is a must rather than an option; they will not succeed.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 27, 2018, 08:14:26 am
.
THE WORD

The Watchtower Society will never accept classical Christianity's teaching that Jesus Christ is Jehovah incognito simply because the Society's undying premise is that it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and a human being simultaneously.

According to the premise: Jehovah's spirit existence would have to be terminated before He could become a human existence; and I can easily guarantee that nobody is ever going to convince the Society otherwise unless they first prove that the Word of John 1:1-4 is impervious to death. In other words; in order to prove to the Society that it's possible for a spirit being to exist as a human being simultaneously, it is necessary to prove to the Society that the Word is an everlasting life; which is a kind of life that cannot die. Fortunately it's very easy to do because the apostle John did that part for us.

● 1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have viewed attentively and our hands felt, concerning the word of life, (yes, the life was made manifest, and we have seen and are bearing witness and reporting to you the everlasting life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us,)

The Greek word for "everlasting" in that passage is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os) which essentially means perpetual; viz: without interruption.

The Word's human existence as per John 1:14 was as a mortal life and thus easily interrupted; but seeing as how the Word's spirit existence as per 1John 1:1-2 is an everlasting life, then it's impossible for the Word's spirit existence to be interrupted.

Jehovah cannot interrupt His existence as God because Jehovah is an everlasting life (Gen 21:33, Rom 16:26). In the same manner, the Word cannot interrupt his existence as the Word because the Word is an everlasting life too. (John 5:26, 1John 1:1-2)

The Word may have temporarily divested himself of his glory when he came to the earth to live and die as a human being, but he did not, and could not, divest himself of his spirit existence because in order to do that, he would have to die; which is an impossibility for everlasting life. If that were not so, then it would be possible to assassinate Jehovah. In point of fact, it would even be possible for Jehovah to commit suicide.


NOTE: According to chapter 1, verse 1, of John's gospel, the Word is a god. Well; seeing as how the Word is an everlasting life, then he's obviously an everlasting god too; viz: the Watchtower Society's religion has two everlasting gods in it, and both of those everlasting gods are credited with the creation of the cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy.

Precisely how an everlasting creator can exist simultaneously as a created thing is one of the mysteries of classical Christianity that has to be taken on faith rather than reason because the 3-pound lump of fatty, flabby organic tissue housed in a man's bony little skull, and sufficing for a mind, is just too limited to get it; and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 28, 2018, 10:49:36 am
.
CHRIST'S RESURRECTION

Were John Q and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be asked if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure you they would answer in the affirmative. However, what you may not know is that you and they would not be speaking the same language as the conversation would be talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In other words: you would find yourself thrown off by semantic double speak.

The classical Christian understanding of Christ's resurrection is common throughout the gospels; viz: Jesus Christ's dead, crucified body was restored to life as per John 2:19-22.

"Jesus said to them: Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said."

You see, if Jesus' dead, crucified body had not been restored to life, that entire passage would be easily proven false. But according to the Watchtower Society's way of seeing things; Christ's dead, crucified body didn't return to life at all; and here's why.

In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and a human being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't go completely out of existence. Instead, his "life force" remained intact and was transferred to a human form.

"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth. Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, p.920)

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

But Michael's existence as a human being was only temporary. When his human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God transferred Michael's life force back into his angel form thus restoring him to his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a permanent state of decease.


NOTE: The Society teaches that death terminates existence; but apparently not entirely because the Society also believes that at death, an angel's life force was transferred to another form-- in Michael's case, from a spirit form to an organic form; in effect, preserving a portion of Michael's existence so it could be re-transferred later when God went about restoring Michael to his former existence.

It could be argued that Jesus lives on in the body of an angel; but that wouldn't be true seeing as how Jesus' life force was Michael's to begin with.

The Society has to accept the obvious fact that their doctrine implies that Jesus Christ was never really fully human, rather, he was an amalgam of angel and human seeing as how it was the life force of an angel that kept Jesus' human body alive.

In other words: the Society's Jesus wasn't an organic man in the normal sense, rather; he was an organic angel; because when you get right down to it; the nature of one's life force is what determines the nature of their existence. That's easily seen in the very first chapter of Genesis wherein all the various creatures were given a life force pertinent to the nature of their species


FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:

"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be taking his sacrifice off God's altar."

There is a really, really big flaw in the Society's theology; and that's Michael's human remains. In order to confirm that his crucified human body stayed dead, the Society is going to have produce it. A piece of evidence of that significance can't be allowed to just slip through a crack unnoticed as if it makes no difference. As Carl Sagan once said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Till then, we should reckon that when the Bible speaks of Jesus Christ's resurrection, it's talking about a man's corpse rather than an angel's.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on October 28, 2018, 02:27:19 pm
The Watchtower Society is also dealing with some legal issues regarding the hiding and protecting of **** within their organization. They do this to protect their image.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VJrLBpmPGQ

Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 28, 2018, 04:01:39 pm
.
Pedophilia isn't unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. It's prevalent among Catholics and Protestants too, so I don't recommend attempting to invalidate the Watchtower Book and Tract Society via that route seeing as how pedophilia isn't all that uncommon: it's just a fact of life, sort of like people J-walking and/or coasting thru STOP signs without bringing their car to a complete halt.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 28, 2018, 04:09:29 pm
.
POSITIVE PROOFS

● Acts 1:1-3 . .The first account, O Theophilus, I composed about all the things Jesus started both to do and to teach, until the day that he was taken up, after he had given commandment through holy spirit to the apostles whom he chose. To these also by many positive proofs he showed himself alive after he had suffered.

The Watchtower Society's version of those "positive proofs" is interesting.

In order to show his friends that their savior was back from death, an angel named Michael is alleged to have materialized an artificial Jesus that was in all respects just as physical, and just as functional, as the real Jesus.

However:

1• The New Testament never even one time, on any occasion, nor under any circumstances, nor in any situation, either attests, alleges, alludes, or states that an angel named Michael appeared in Christ's human form cloaked in a materialized body.

2• The Society's Michael never once let on to his friends that he was an angel in disguise. He led them to believe that his avatar was the actual Jesus Christ they all knew prior to his crucifixion.

3• Passing one's self off in the guise of a dead man is the lowest form of identity theft imaginable. People do it all the time; and it's what I expect from human beings, but that is not the kind of behavior I have a right to expect from an arch angel.

4• A so-called materialized body is not a real person; it's an avatar.

5• Neither Paul, nor Peter, nor John, nor James, nor Jude, ever even one single instance in any of their writings identify Jesus Christ as an angel named Michael: not once. You'd think that if Jesus Christ is currently an angel who goes by the name of Michael, those men would have said so because that would be a really big deal.

Q: Why make an issue of the nature of Christ's resurrection?

A: Were I the Devil, I would do my utmost best to disprove the resurrection of Jesus' crucified dead body because his crucifixion is only half enough to protect people from the wrath of God. Though his physical body's death obtains forgiveness for people's sins, its death doesn't gain people an acquittal.

● Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered up for the sake of our trespasses, and was raised up for the sake of declaring us righteous.

The Greek word translated "righteous" is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) whjich means acquittal; defined as an adjudication of innocence.

People merely forgiven still carry a load of guilt; viz: they have a criminal record. Christ's physical resurrection deletes their record so that on the books, it's as though they've never been anything but 100% innocent.

This clearing of one's guilt that I'm talking about is obtained via the kindness and generosity of God through belief in the resurrection of Christ's crucified dead body. If the Devil can succeed in convincing people that Jesus' crucified body is still dead or, even better yet, make them question whether the man even existed at all; then they will fail to obtain an acquittal, and consequently end up put to death in brimstone because records are to be reviewed when people stand to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

Of all the doctrines invented by the Watchtower Society, I'd have to say that their resurrection story is the most insidious because belief in the recovery of Christ's crucified dead body is one of the essential elements of the gospel that must be accepted if one is to have any chance at all of escaping the sum of all fears.

● 1Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on October 29, 2018, 03:30:24 am
.
Pedophilia isn't unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. It's prevalent among Catholics and Protestants too, so I don't recommend attempting to invalidate the Watchtower Book and Tract Society via that route seeing as how pedophilia isn't all that uncommon: it's just a fact of life, sort of like people J-walking and/or coasting thru STOP signs without bringing their car to a complete halt.
_

I think most people know that pedophilia isn't unique to JWs. It is not acceptable no matter how prevalent it is. But we're talking about JWs right now. And I know that the JWs who have had this happen to them would be shocked, appalled and no doubt angered by such a comparison as J Walking and running a stop sign. Their lives have been destroyed by this and they suffer and their lives will never be the same. Many of them have committed suicide not only because they were sexually abused but also because they were disfellowshipped for naming names and then they were shunned by their families and treated as if they were dead. That is also devastating to them. There are too many things to mention that proves how much JWs are abused and mistreated.

I have spoken out about the sexual abuse in Catholic Churches. I heard recently that Catholics are using their wallets to protest this so good for them. But if I was Catholic I think I would just leave and not come back because this sort of thing has been going on for so long and nothing is done about it.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 29, 2018, 08:46:10 am
.
THE IN CROWD

● Rom 8:9 . .You are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you.


NOTE: The Watchtower Society does not acknowledge God's spirit as a sentient being, rather:

"The holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will." (Reasoning From The Scriptures, p. 381)

I highly recommend avoiding debate with JWs over the personage of God's spirit because they will match you scripture for scripture and you're likely to  just end up going round and round in circles and never get to the bottom of anything.

Anyway; Rom 8:9 informs the Watchtower Society's elite class of 144,000 anointed Witnesses that they are in harmony with God's spirit; seeing as how it's alleged that the anointed class has God's sprit truly dwelling in them.

At the same time; it informs the non-anointed class of Witnesses that they are in harmony, not with God's spirit, but with the flesh; and that is not a good thing seeing as they that are in harmony with the flesh are Jehovah's adversaries; unwilling to either please Him or comply with His wishes. If John Q and Jane Doe non-anointed Witness don't know this; then all I can say is: they've got some catching up to do.

● Rom 8:8 . . So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.

There's more.

● 1John 2:26-27 . .These things I write you about those who are trying to mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.

In a nutshell: the anointed class is allegedly able to remain in union with Christ on their own by means of the one-on-one spiritual guidance that the anointing provides them. Seeing as how the non-anointed class doesn't have access to either the anointing or the anointing's one-on-one spiritual guidance; they therefore are incapable of remaining in union with Christ on their own.

That, coupled with their resistance to God as per Rom 8:8, leaves John Q and Jane Doe non-anointed Witness in a defenseless spiritual condition; vz: they are susceptible to deception by means of clever sophistry, semantic double speak, and humanistic reasoning.

There's more yet:

Non anointed Witnesses sincerely believe they don't need the anointing because they obtain their spiritual instruction from anointed leaders. However, according to 1Cor 2:12-14, non anointed Witnesses will neither listen to, nor accept, instruction from an anointed teacher because a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.


FYI: "physical man" (a.k.a. natural man) is the Bible's terminology for non anointed people. Here's the way that non anointed people are described with language from a classical version of the Bible.

"We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Therefore; if non anointed Witness are receiving and accepting spiritual instruction from their leaders, it's only because their leaders are just as non anointed as they are, i.e. it is an actual, real-life case of the blind leading the blind.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 30, 2018, 04:09:38 pm
.
MEDIATION

● 1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

On page 1129 of the Watchtower publication Aid To Bible Understanding a mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them: an intercessor.

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the "Questions From Readers" section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of Aid To Bible Understanding where it says that the 144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ. (1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a Jehovah's Witness either defects or is disfellowshipped, it breaks the pipeline to the mediator that they enjoyed within the Society's fold; right quick losing all contact with God, and placing themselves in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

In other words: Christ's mediation as per 1Tim 2:5 is accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with God.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on October 30, 2018, 06:55:19 pm
.
MEDIATION FOR THE EARTHLY CLASS

● 1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

On page 1129 of the Watchtower publication Aid To Bible Understanding a mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them: an intercessor.

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the "Questions From Readers" section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of Aid To Bible Understanding where it says that the 144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ. (1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a Jehovah's Witness either defects or is dis-fellowshipped, it breaks the pipeline to the mediator that he enjoyed within the Society's fold; and he right quick loses all contact with God; and finds himself in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

In other words: Christ's mediation as per 1Tim 2:5 is accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with God.
_


Plain and simple, Th Jehovah's Witness (Watchtower Ministries) are a CULT!

Blade
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on October 31, 2018, 09:27:10 am
.
CHRIST IN HEAVEN

Q: 1Cor 15:50 clearly testifies that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Wouldn't that fact alone preclude the possibility of Christ's crucified dead body returning to life?

A: First, and foremost; it was essential that Christ's crucified dead body be returned to life or otherwise his prediction as per John 2:19-22, and the Scriptures as per Ps 16:10, Luke 24:44-46, and Acts 2:24-32 would be easily proven false.

The chemistry of Jesus' original body had to be the same when it revived. However, as 1Cor 15:50 says: his body's original material is unsuitable for life in a celestial environment. So then, in order for Jesus to be up there as a physical being, the chemistry of his body had to be reformulated.

God is very creative so I seriously doubt that flesh and blood are the only materials that He has to work with. I also seriously doubt that spirit material is the default material when flesh and blood are not an option; I mean, after all, if God was able to design the human body in its original form to inhabit the Earth, I see no reason why He would not be able to redesign it to inhabit a celestial abode.

Q: When would the chemistry of Christ's body have undergone this reformulation?

A: Some day all of Christ's believing followers will be physically resurrected and taken up to meet the Lord in the air (1Thes 4:13-17). On the way up, their natural bodies will undergo a sudden and miraculous transformation (1Cor 15:51-53). They'll become superhuman; viz: deathless and ageless.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Christ's crucified body underwent a similar transformation while on the way up to heaven as per Acts 1:9 so that today his body is no longer a normal human body; but instead, a superhuman body to which all his believing followers' bodies will one day conform. (Php 4:20-21)


NOTE: Although the chemistry of Christ's body has been reformulated; it's still capable of dining upon ordinary foods and beverages. (Mark 14:25 and Luke 22:16-18)

Q: If Jesus Christ's corpse really did return to life; then how did he get it into a room without opening the door? (John 20:19)

A: Christ walked on water, restored withered limbs, cured people born blind, healed serious diseases like leprosy, restored dead bodies to life, controlled the weather, multiplied fish and bread, turned water into wine, and levitated. Plus; he once said that rocks could be made to speak. (Luke 19:40)

What's one more miracle, more or less? Walking through walls? Disappearing and reappearing? How hard could any of that really be for a man with the powers of God at his disposal?

It's curious how people can say they believe in miracles but yet cannot believe that God has sufficient control over the laws of nature to make a physical human body pass through solid objects.

Q: Well; if Jehovah has enough control over the laws of nature to pass a physical human body through closed doors, then couldn't He pass the arch angel Michael through the door as a spirit and then materialize him on the other side as a human in order to communicate with his friends?

A: That would be acceptable if only there were some record of it in the New Testament. But it is an irrefutable fact that the New Testament not even one time, on any occasion, nor under any circumstances, nor in any situation, either attests, alleges, alludes, or states that an angel named Michael appeared to Christ's friends cloaked in a human avatar. That doctrine doesn't come from the New Testament. It's a humanistic fantasy.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 01, 2018, 05:16:09 am
.
SPIRIT BODY VS SPIRITUAL BODY

 ● 1Cor 15:44 . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.

Watch as I misquote that passage because the difference, though subtle. Is significant.

"It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spirit body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spirit one."

No; it doesn't say spirit body but nevertheless that's what some people have decided it ought to say.

The Greek word translated "spiritual" is ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily refer to the characteristics of a body with the consistency of thin air. Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the bodily chemistry of an angel or a demon.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual counselors (Gal 6:1)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)

I'm inclined to believe that the spiritual body spoken of at 1Cor 15:44 is in no way composed of a gaseous substance. Of what material it is composed I don't know; but I do know at least four things about it.

1• The spiritual body is patterned after Christ's glorified body.

● Phil 3:20-21 . .Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

2• The spiritual body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods.

● Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.

3• The spiritual body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages.

● Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

4• The spiritual body is capable of being seen by the naked eye.

● Acts 1:11 . . Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched him go into heaven.

● Rev 1:7 . . Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 02, 2018, 09:39:13 am
.
CHRIST'S PARABLES

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told one that alleged the moon was made of green cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was fantasy; but none of them are like that. No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in his parables. At best; Christ's parables might qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because none of them are so far removed from the normal round of human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

There is something else to consider.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No, it originated with his Father. In other words: Christ was micro-managed.

● John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

● John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

● John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

So, by alleging that Luke 16:19-31 is fiction/fantasy, the parable theory slanders God by insinuating that He's a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.

God's impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume the narrative was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at least based upon real life.

In other words: there really is an afterlife place of conscious suffering where people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones are on a road to where they are and there is no way to warn them; which brings to mind the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones while utterly helpless to do anything about it.

People for whom I feel the most pity are parents that brought up their children in a religion whose pot at the end of the rainbow is filled with molten sulfur rather than gold. How do people bear up under something like that on their conscience?
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 02, 2018, 11:01:02 am
.
MEDIATION FOR THE EARTHLY CLASS

● 1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

On page 1129 of the Watchtower publication Aid To Bible Understanding a mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them: an intercessor.

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the "Questions From Readers" section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of Aid To Bible Understanding where it says that the 144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ. (1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a Jehovah's Witness either defects or is dis-fellowshipped, it breaks the pipeline to the mediator that he enjoyed within the Society's fold; and he right quick loses all contact with God; and finds himself in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

In other words: Christ's mediation as per 1Tim 2:5 is accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with God.
_


Plain and simple, Th Jehovah's Witness (Watchtower Ministries) are a CULT!

Blade
I'm sorry to say that I have to agree with that. But I have compassion for people who are trapped in cults. I would like to try to help them if I can which is the reason I have been making posts trying to inform JWs about the Watchtower's deception and lies. Unfortunately there are those who accuse me of attacking JWs and that is not what I'm doing.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on November 02, 2018, 04:37:25 pm
.
MEDIATION FOR THE EARTHLY CLASS

● 1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

On page 1129 of the Watchtower publication Aid To Bible Understanding a mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them: an intercessor.

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the "Questions From Readers" section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of Aid To Bible Understanding where it says that the 144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ. (1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a Jehovah's Witness either defects or is dis-fellowshipped, it breaks the pipeline to the mediator that he enjoyed within the Society's fold; and he right quick loses all contact with God; and finds himself in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

In other words: Christ's mediation as per 1Tim 2:5 is accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with God.
_


Plain and simple, Th Jehovah's Witness (Watchtower Ministries) are a CULT!

Blade
I'm sorry to say that I have to agree with that. But I have compassion for people who are trapped in cults. I would like to try to help them if I can which is the reason I have been making posts trying to inform JWs about the Watchtower's deception and lies. Unfortunately there are those who accuse me of attacking JWs and that is not what I'm doing.

I understand. Have some neighbors (good friends actually) that are/were and were not? (cannot tell which way they are now)J-Who's.

I ask them about the 144,000 and the fact that the other 250,000 J-Who's would not get to go to heaven. Their reply was the others were supposed to have Heaven on Earth instead. They only believe in Jehovah and not in Jesus Christ as His SON. And like many in a cult or Not and still believe in its doctrine, you cannot change their minds. I think they do something to them, like turning off a light switch vs pulling the power altogether. They simply will not change.

Blade
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 03, 2018, 09:38:14 am
.
CONNECTING WITH GOD VIA HIGH PRIEST

● Ps 110:4 . . Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek

Melchizedek's only personal appearance in the Bible occurs at Gen 14:18-20. The letter to Hebrews in the New Testament utilizes him as a "type" of Christ's celestial priesthood.

The author of the letter to Hebrews was reluctant to discuss Melchizedek's office, and how Christ's current high priest position relates to it, because the recipients of the letter were so spiritually immature, and so disinterested in Bible study, that he feared his comments would result in a ping. In other words: a discussion of Melchizedek and how he relates to Jesus Christ isn't everybody's cup of tea so I won't bother going into detail.

However; at least one of the salient features of Mel's priesthood should be readily obvious to everybody regardless of their spiritual acumen: Mel was a human being; just as all of God's high priests have always been human beings-- no exceptions. In point of fact, the letter to Hebrews clearly states that high priests are taken from among men (Heb 5:1). So that becomes the No.1 qualification for a Melchizedekian priest right out of the box and instantly disqualifies spirit beings.

Mel's jurisdiction was on the earth. But that was before Israel's covenanted law established Aaron's priesthood. So when that happened; Mel's post was temporarily suspended; and in point of fact, if Christ were on earth, he would not be an active priest because this is Aaron's district.

However, though Mel's post was moved to heaven's temple, there were no changes made to the nature of the person who holds the office. In other words; a priest according to the manner of Melchizedek is a human being no matter where he is. And since Ps 110:4 made Jesus Christ a priest to time indefinite, then he will remain a human being to time indefinite; and in order to be a human being, the Society says he has to have a human body because in their theology; human existence is entirely physical.

● 1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

The Greek for both "men" and "man" in that verse is the same. It's derived from anthropos (anth'-ro-pos) --a common word for human beings in the New Testament; which is why that passage doesn't say there is one mediator between God and men, an angel, Christ Michael. No it doesn't say an angel, Christ Michael; no, it says a man, Christ Jesus; who everyone knows to be a human being rather than an angel by the same name.

A search of the entire New Testament for the angel Michael turns up but two references: Jude 1:9 and Rev 12:7. That angel is nowhere in the gospels, nowhere in Acts, and nowhere in the epistles other than Jude. If that angel is so all-fired important; then why is it so marginalized? Even the Society itself is a bit perplexed as to why the name of an angel so highly revered in their theology is nigh unto absent in the New Testament.

The Society claims that the names Jesus and Michael are interchangeable; but that's the most ridiculous case of apples and oranges on record; not to mention a very serious case of identity fraud. Even if an angel had once existed as a human being named Jesus; it no longer does. Now it exists as an angel being named Michael. The two names aren't interchangeable because the one name denotes a human being and the other name denotes a spirit being. Go ahead; search the New Testament and see how much luck you have finding somebody's name hyphenated like this: Jesus-Michael Christ. You won't because the Society's theology is an utter fantasy.

Oh what a wicked web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive.

-- Sir Walter Scott --

That poem rings so true. Once Charles T. Russell and/or Joseph F. Rutherford declared that Michael the angel, and Jesus Christ the human, are the same person; they were faced with the Herculean task of forcing the Bible to agree; and that was quite a challenge; which was accomplished by means of clever amalgams of fiction, sophistry, half-truths, semantic double speak, and humanistic reasoning.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 03, 2018, 06:18:01 pm
.
MEDIATION FOR THE EARTHLY CLASS

● 1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

On page 1129 of the Watchtower publication Aid To Bible Understanding a mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them: an intercessor.

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the "Questions From Readers" section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of Aid To Bible Understanding where it says that the 144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ. (1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a Jehovah's Witness either defects or is dis-fellowshipped, it breaks the pipeline to the mediator that he enjoyed within the Society's fold; and he right quick loses all contact with God; and finds himself in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

In other words: Christ's mediation as per 1Tim 2:5 is accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with God.
_


Plain and simple, Th Jehovah's Witness (Watchtower Ministries) are a CULT!

Blade
I'm sorry to say that I have to agree with that. But I have compassion for people who are trapped in cults. I would like to try to help them if I can which is the reason I have been making posts trying to inform JWs about the Watchtower's deception and lies. Unfortunately there are those who accuse me of attacking JWs and that is not what I'm doing.

I understand. Have some neighbors (good friends actually) that are/were and were not? (cannot tell which way they are now)J-Who's.

I ask them about the 144,000 and the fact that the other 250,000 J-Who's would not get to go to heaven. Their reply was the others were supposed to have Heaven on Earth instead. They only believe in Jehovah and not in Jesus Christ as His SON. And like many in a cult or Not and still believe in its doctrine, you cannot change their minds. I think they do something to them, like turning off a light switch vs pulling the power altogether. They simply will not change.

Blade
I also have good friends who are JWs. But I have found that before I can talk to them about scriptures that I have to help them to understand how they have been deceived by the Watchtower Society and of course they always defend the Governing Body no matter what they say or do or how many JWs lives have been destroyed by the doctrines, rules and regulations that come from the Governing Body.

That barrier has to be broken down before they will listen to any scriptures that I want to share with them. That has been the hardest thing to overcome to get them to listen. Because to them, the Governing Body is "the voice of God" and they have been so brainwashed to believe that to go against the Governing Body is going against God himself. They are thoroughly convinced of that and they don't think that the Governing Body can do any wrong or make mistakes. They view them as highly anointed.

And I am being misunderstood right now, not on this forum, but by people saying that I am attacking JWs just because I'm calling out the Governing Body's church abuse and the twisting and distorting of scripture and placing themselves up so high that in JWs view they are equal to God. And that is no exaggeration. They won't admit that and they will get upset if its even said to them but its true. And when a JW leaves that organization they are told that they are leaving God. They equate themselves with God. That's why they tell JWs that they're leaving God. JWs aren't leaving God. They're leaving a corrupt and abusive religion. And the ones who have dared to go onto the internet and research the history and even present doctrines and rules have come to realize the truth. But of course those JWs who do that are called before a judicial committee and are disfellowshipped for apostasy just for questioning and disagreeing with the Governing Body. That is not allowed. Free thinking and critical thinking is not allowed either.

I know that there are other religions that operate the same way as The Watchtower does. The same kind of church abuse. The same method of twisting and distorting of scripture. The same kind of secrecy and cover up. And I have compassion for people in those religions. Jesus had compassion for people and he knew exactly how to speak to them with authority that made them listen. And he called out some of the religious leaders who were hurting people.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 04, 2018, 12:28:06 pm
.
THE FAITHFUL AND WISE STEWARD

● Matt 24:45-47 . .Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

The core of the Watchtower Society-- the Governing Body --sincerely believes itself the faithful and discreet slave spoken of in that passage, i.e. believes that God chose the leaders of the Watchtower Society as His sole distributor of truth to mankind; thus explaining why John Q and Jane Doe Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that they need to submit unquestioningly to the Governing Body in order to associate with God, and for protection from doomsday, viz: the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

"The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as the faithful and discreet slave." (jw.org, 10th Nov 2012)

"That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel." (Watchtower, 2013 Jul 15, p.20)

"We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval." (Watchtower, 2011 Jul 15, p.24, Simplified English Edition)

"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (Watchtower, 2001 Aug 01, p.14)

However: paragraph 12, under the heading; "Who is leading God's People today?" of the Feb 2017 Watchtower--Study Edition, says:

"The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food."

Just imagine the degree of confusion and insecurity that would pervade the minds of regular Christians had the authors of the New Testament scriptures attached a caveat to their writings similar to the above.


NOTE: I've had JW missionaries tell me that The Watchtower magazine isn't an authority in matters of faith and practice. But the Jan 1, 1942 issue of the magazine, on page 5, speaks for itself as a trustworthy source of Watchtower Society theology by saying:

"Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all. Those who believe that God uses he Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The Watchtower."

In other words: the haulers of water and the hewers of wood-- viz: the rank and file --are not only expected to know what's in the Watchtower magazine, but they're also required to accept it as the God's truth.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 05, 2018, 01:35:54 pm
.
MIGHTY ONES

The Watchtower Society's theology is a based on a version called monolatrism, which basically alleges that all gods are actual deities; though not all deities are deemed worthy of worship. This is not quite the same as polytheism where numerous gods are all considered worthy of worship.

Monolatrism is distinguished from monotheism (asserts the existence of only one god) and distinguished from henotheism (a religious system in which the believer worships one god alone without denying that others may worship different gods of equal value)

While classical Christianity recognizes but two categories of gods: the true and the false, viz: the authentic and the imitation, the intrinsic and the artificial. The Watchtower Society's theologians took the liberty to create a third sandwiched between the true and the false called "mighty ones". The mighty-one category is a sort of neutral zone where qualifying personages exist as bona fide deities without violating the very first of the Ten Commandments. For example:

"I myself have said: You are gods" (Ps 82:6)

The gods referred to in that passage are humans; which everybody should know are only imitation deities rather than the genuine article; so in order to avoid stigmatizing humans as fake gods, the Society classifies them as mighty ones.

This gets kind of humorous when we plug "mighty one" into various locations. For example:

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a mighty one." (John 1:1)

And another:

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten mighty one who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him." (John 1:18)

The "mighty one" category was an invention of necessity. In other words: without it, the Society would be forced to classify the only-begotten (John 1:18) and the Word (John 1:1) as a false god seeing as how Deut 6:4, John 17:3, and 1Cor 8:4-6 testify that there is only one true god.


OBJECTION: Jesus verified the authenticity of Ps 82:6 in a discussion recorded at John 10:34-36. If the word of God cannot be nullified, then those gods have to be real gods.

RESPONSE: Oh; they're real alright: real imitations. According to Deut 6:4, John 17:3, and 1Cor 8:4-6 there is only one true god. Therefore the gods in Ps 82 are artificial gods. True gods don't die; viz: they're immortal, impervious to death. The gods in Psalm 82 are not immortal.

So then, what does all this say about God's son? Well; if God's son is only a mighty one, as the Watchtower Society alleges; then he's an artificial god and his divinity is no more divine in reality than a totem pole or a statue of Shiva.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 06, 2018, 10:14:20 am
.
THE LIVING GOD(S)

● Jer 10:10 . . Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living god.

The Hebrew word for "living" in that passage is chay (khah'-ee) which first appears in the Bible at Gen 1:20 where it speaks of aqua life and winged life. Then it appears at Gen 1:24 where it speaks of life on land. It appears again at Gen 2:7 where it speaks of human life.

Vegetation is never spoken of as chay. So I think we can limit the kind of life spoken of by chay as conscious life; viz: sentient existence.

Jehovah is called the living god something like fifteen times in the Old Testament, and fifteen more times in the New.

I'm unaware of any other gods in the whole Bible identified as living gods; not even the gods of Psalm 82 to whom God said "You are gods".

Because of that; I think it safe to conclude that no other god is a living god. In other words: labeling Jehovah as the living god is a way of saying He is the only god that's actually eternal, i.e. always was, always is, and always shall be. This has some serious ramifications.

Speaking of Christ:

● Col 2:9 . . It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.

The Greek word for "divine quality" is theotes (theh-ot'-ace) which means: divinity

Seeing as how theotes is modified by the Greek definite article "ho" then what we're looking at here in Col 2:9 isn't nondescript divinity, but rather the divinity. In other words: we're looking at the fullness of the divinity of the living god.

Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that the Word spoken of at John 1:1 is a god. However: the Word isn't just any god; no, the fullness of the divinity of the living god dwells in the Word; viz: the Word is a living god, i.e. the life that's in the Word always was, always is, and always shall be.

● John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in himself, so He has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

When the Father granted the Son to have life in himself just as the Father has life in Himself, things got a bit complicated because unless Jehovah and the Word are different names for the same personage; there is now one too many living gods out there.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 07, 2018, 02:49:29 pm
.
THE FIRSTBORN

● Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

The Watchtower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that God's son was the first thing created before everything else in the cosmos.

However, the New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

The average Watchtower Society missionary doesn't know the difference between prototokos and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some of them; born first and created first are essentially one and the same.

But are they the same? No. Birthing requires a parent while creating requires a craftsman. Birthing produces progeny while crafting produces projects. God's son wasn't a project; no, he's God's progeny.

However; firstborn doesn't always refer to birth order. The term also refers to pay grade, so to speak, and as such is transferrable from an elder to a younger, e.g. Jacob and Esau (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).

There was a time when David was God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27). The position was later transferred to one of David's sons (Dan 7:13-14, Ps 110:1, Matt 22:42-45, Phil 2:9-11). So for now and forever; neither anything nor anybody is higher up on creation's chain of command than Christ.

You'd think that the Jews' religious experts of Jesus' day would have known about this.

● Matt 22:41-46 . . Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them: “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s" He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet” ’? If, therefore, David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?”

Jesus referred to Psalm 110:1, which reads like this in the NWT.

The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

The Hebrew word for "Lord" in that verse is 'adown (aw-done'); a very common title of respect for one's superiors in the Old Testament. Sarah revered her husband Abraham as 'adown (Gen 18:12) Rachel revered her dad Laban as 'adown (Gen 31:5) and Jacob revered his brother Esau as 'adown (Gen 33:8). So then; Psalm 110:1 can be translated like this:

The utterance of Jehovah to my superior: "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

David is the paterfamilias of his own line of royalty, making him superior to all of his male progeny; none of them outrank him, all are his subordinates. But Ps 110:1 speaks of one of David's male progeny who somehow breaks the rules; and the Jews' religious experts were utterly baffled by it.

● Matt 22:46 . . And no one was able to answer him a word

The Jews' religious experts were no doubt aware, by means of their Old Testament studies, that the rank of firstborn can be moved around among siblings, but nobody even dreamed it could be taken away from one's self and given to one's offspring. This was something strange to their Jewish way of thinking; yet there it is in black and white in their own scriptures. They had somehow failed to catch the significance of Ps 110:1 until Jesus drew their attention to it.

● Eph 1:20-21 . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.

● Phil 2:8-11 . . God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Q: What is the name that is above every other name?

A: Jehovah

Q: Is that another reason why Jesus is superior to David?

A: Yes. Jesus has the God-given right to use Jehovah's name as his own name; which allows him all the respect and reverence that the name deserves; viz: failure to revere Jesus as Jehovah dishonors the name of God the Father.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 08, 2018, 09:13:37 am
.
OTHER                     

Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower Society's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

"Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist."

Note that the word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is not in the Greek manuscript; viz: the Society's editors took the liberty to pencil it in; which gives the impression that God's son was His first creation; and thereafter, His son created everything else.

One day, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my door consisting of an experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of penciling in words that go to reinforcing it's line of thinking.

I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that the word "other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in the Greek manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It comes out like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to discover that Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out to the trainee that the Society is inconsistent with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it into John 1:3 in order to make it read like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one [other] thing came into existence."

Now; as to tampering with Paul's letters, and forcing them to mean things they don't say in writing; this is what Peter has to say about that.

● 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Untaught people are oftentimes self-taught; and were the Society's missionaries to check into ol' Charles T. Russell's rather ignoble past; they'd find that "self-taught" pretty much describes the origin of their theology.


NOTE: The 1984 revised version of the New World Translation omits brackets around the word "other" in Col 1:16-17. However, it's readily seen from the Watchtower Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures that "other" is nowhere to be found in the Greek text.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 08, 2018, 02:19:08 pm
I've spoken to JWs many times at my door. But this one time, they kept repeating the words, "New World Order". So when the woman said it once again, I said to her, "You must be a big fan of George Bush." She gave me a puzzled look and said, "No. Why do you say that?" I said, "Well, he's always saying those exact words, "New World Order".  Maybe you need to find out why he says that so much and what it means." She said, "Oh, we aren't political that way". I said, "Well you could have fooled me because you sound just like him saying "New World Order" repeatedly."
There's a reason why JWs use that phrase so much. I won't go into all that right now.

But I will say for an organization that claims that its not political, it sure seems strange that the Governing Body were members of the United Nations from 1991 to 2001. Now if the United Nations is not a political organization then I don't know what is. Of course the rank and file JW was not aware of this till the Guardian newspaper did a story on it. And many JWs left that organization when that was made public because the rank and file JW better not even think about being part of a political organization or they will be disfellowshipped real quick. So many JWs saw the hypocrisy with that and left that organization. But there are many other things that the Watchtower keeps secret from its members.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 09, 2018, 09:53:34 am
.
MONOGENES

Q: One translation of John 1:18 says that Jesus is the only-begotten god; while another translation says Jesus is the only begotten son. Which translation is correct?

A: Either translation will do because, biologically speaking, they're both saying the very same thing.

John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, and 1John 4:9 are translated from the Greek word monogenes (mon-og-en-ace') which is a combination of two words.

The first is mono, which music buffs recognize as a single channel rather than two or four in surround sound stereo. Mono is very common; e.g. monogamy, monofilament, monotonous, mononucleotide, monochrome, monogram, monolith, monologue, monomial, et al.

The other word is genes; from whence we get the English word gene; which Webster's defines as a biological term indicating a part of a cell that controls or influences the appearance, growth, etc., of a living thing. In other words: monogenes refers to one biological gene set rather than many.

Monogenes always, and without exception, refers to a couple's sole biological child in the New Testament. If a couple has two or more biological children, none of them qualify as monogenes because in order to qualify as a monogenes child, the child has to be an only child. Obviously then, an adopted child can never be monogenes because it wouldn't be the parents' biological child. Examples of monogenes children are located at Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, and Luke 9:38.

So then, scientifically speaking, Christ is unique in that he is God's biological offspring, while God's other sons are not; viz: they're placed as sons, i.e. adopted. (Rom 8:15-16, Gal 4:4-6, Eph 1:4-5)


Q: God literally fathered a child?

A: I think it's probably a bit more accurate to say that God literally co-fathered a child.

Q: How did he do it? Is there a Mrs. God? And who was the other father?

A: Jesus' conception, described at Luke 1:26-35, wasn't only miraculous, it was a very unusual combination of human and divine.

David contributed the human element. (Luke 1:32, Acts 13:22-23, Rom 1:1-3, and 2Tim 2:8)

God contributed the divine element. (Luke 1:35 and 1John 3:9)

Jesus then, is just as much God's progeny as he is David's; and just as much David's progeny as he is God's.


Q: What about Heb 11:17 where Isaac is stated to be Abraham's monogenes child? Wasn't Ishmael a biological child of his too?

A: Isaac is the only biological child that Abraham and Sarah produced together; just as Jesus is the only biological child that God and Man produced together.

To say that this is all very baffling, illogical, unscientific, and unreasonable would be an understatement. In my mind's normal way of thinking, Christ's rather odd case of mixed-species genetics is an outlandish fantasy that, biologically, makes no sense at all. It's sort of like crossing an iguana with an apricot to produce a reptilian fruit tree. But; the circumstances of Christ's conception are in the Bible, so those of us who call ourselves Christians have got to accept it.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 10, 2018, 02:00:49 pm
.
FAIL SAFE

According to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22; Jesus committed no sins of his own.

The Watchtower Society is of the opinion that Christ didn't sin because he "chose" not to sin. In other words: he could have failed, he could have sinned.

That's what they say; but it's not what the Bible says. The fact of the matter is; Christ's divine genetics make it impossible for him to sin.

● 1John 3:9 . . Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God. (NWT)

That translation makes it look as though one born of God's reproductive seed sins now and then but not all the time; viz: doesn't make a habit of sin. But the text on the Greek side of the Society's Kingdom Interlinear reads like this:

"He is not able to be sinning because out of God he has been generated."

There's more:

● Col 2:9 . . It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. (NWT)

The Greek word translated "divine quality" is theotes (theh-ot'-ace) which means divinity; defined by Webster's as the quality or state of being divine.

I don't mean to split hairs but the order of those two words in a sentence makes a difference: divine quality and the quality of being divine are not the same. For example: patience is a divine quality, but people capable of patience aren't eo ipso divine. So let's get that straightened out right from the get-go.

Anyway; what we're looking at in Col 2:9 isn't nondescript divinity; rather, "the" divinity; viz: we're looking at God's divinity; which I think pretty safe to assume is impeccable. I seriously doubt even the Devil himself could fail and/or sin were he brimming with not just a percentage; but with all the fullness of God's divinity.

Q: If it was impossible for Christ to either sin or fail; then what practical purpose did his temptation serve?

A: Christ testified "I always do the things pleasing to Him" (John 8:29). The Devil's failure to break Christ certifies the truth of his statement. In other words: Christ was proof-tested to demonstrate that he contains no flaws.

No doubt the Devil expected that after forty days in the outback without food, Christ would be worn down to the point where he would no longer care whether he sinned or not. But it made no difference. Christ was still just as incapable of sin after forty days in the outback as he was during the first thirty years of his life in Nazareth because Christ's innocence doesn't depend upon his resolve; rather, upon his genetics so to speak; viz: upon God's [reproductive] seed. (1John 3:9)

While we're on the subject: what is the one thing God cannot do? Well; the JWs' conditioned response is that God cannot lie (Heb 6:18). But a better response than that is God cannot sin. In point of fact: it is just as impossible for God to sin as it is for His progeny to sin. I mean; think about it. If God's progeny is unable to sin due to the intrinsically sinless nature of God's reproductive seed; then it goes without saying that the source of that seed would be unable to sin too.

● Jas 1:13 . . For with evil things God cannot be tried. (NWT)


NOTE: The Watchtower Society religion is a bit of an odd duck in the world of Christianity. While most, if not all, of the other denominations seek to glorify Christ; it seems the Society's primary mission in life is to ruin him.

A very common Greek word in the New Testament for the Devil is diabolos (dee-ab'-ol-os) which refers to traducers; defined by Webster's as someone who exposes others to shame or blame by means of falsehood and misrepresentation; i.e. slander
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 10, 2018, 02:27:33 pm
.
FAIL SAFE

According to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22; Jesus committed no sins of his own.

The Watchtower Society is of the opinion that Christ didn't sin because he "chose" not to sin. That's what they say; but it's not what the Bible says. The fact of the matter is; Christ's divine genetics make it impossible for him to sin.

● 1John 3:9 . . Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.

That translation makes it look as though one born of God sins now and then but not all the time; viz: doesn't make a habit of sin. But the text on the Greek side of the Kingdom Interlinear reads like this: 

"He is not able to be sinning because out of God he has been generated."

There's more:

● Col 2:9 . . It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.

What we're looking at isn't nondescript divine quality; rather, the divine quality; viz: we're looking at the quality of God's divinity; which I think pretty safe to assume is impeccable. I seriously doubt even the Devil himself could fail and/or sin were he brimming with not just a percentage; but with all the quality of God's divinity.


Q: If it was impossible for Christ to sin; then what practical purpose did his temptation serve?

A: Christ testified "I always do the things pleasing to Him" (John 8:29). The Devil's failure to break Christ proves the truth of his statement. In other words: Christ was proof-tested to demonstrate that he contains no flaws.

No doubt the Devil expected that after forty days in the outback without food, Christ would be worn down to the point where he would no longer care whether he sinned or not. But it made no difference. Christ was still just as impervious to sin after forty days in the outback as he was during the first 30 years of his life in Nazareth because Christ's innocence doesn't depend upon his resolve; rather, upon his genetics so to speak; viz: upon God's [reproductive] seed.

While we're on the subject: what is the one thing God cannot do? Well; the JWs' conditioned response is that God cannot lie (Heb 6:18). But a better response than that is God cannot sin. In point of fact: it is just as impossible for God to sin as it is for His progeny to sin. I mean; think about it. If God's progeny is unable to sin due to the intrinsically sinless nature of God's reproductive seed; then it goes without saying that the source of that seed would be unable to sin too.

● Jas 1:13 . . For with evil things God cannot be tried.
_

I'm sure you know that the Governing Body is viewed as "anointed ones"  who the rank and file JW must obey and instead of seeing Jesus as the mediator, the rank and file JW are taught to view the Governing Body as, and this is what they call it, the only channel of communication to God. So in effect the Governing Body put themselves above Jesus.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 10, 2018, 02:55:52 pm
I'm sure you know that the Governing Body is viewed as "anointed ones"  who the rank and file JW must obey

See reply No.22
_



instead of seeing Jesus as the mediator, the rank and file JW are taught to view the Governing Body as, and this is what they call it, the only channel of communication to God.

See reply No.13
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 12, 2018, 12:01:38 pm
.
HO THEÓS

Q: Why does the Watchtower Society translate the Word in John 1:1 as a god in lower case instead of God in upper case?

A: The Watchtower Society's translation is based upon an imaginary grammatical technicality.

The common Greek word for "god" is theós. When it's modified by the little Greek definite article ho the Society translates  theós in upper case, viz: in the Society's theological thinking; ho theós pertains to the one true God, while theós by itself is somewhat flexible, for example John 1:18 and John 20:17 where theós is translated in upper case though it be not modified by ho.

However, according to Dr. Archibald T. Robertson's Grammar Of The Greek New Testament, page 767: in regards to nouns in the predicate; the article is not essential to speech. In other words: when theós is in the predicate, ho can be either used, or not used, without making any real difference.

So then; a translator's decision whether to capitalize either of the two theós in John1:1 or not to capitalize them, is entirely arbitrary rather than dictated by a strict rule of Greek grammar.

The Society prefers "a god" because lower case is agreeable with their opinion of Christ's celestial status.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 13, 2018, 09:43:27 am
.
THE FIG TREE

● Mark 11:12-13 . .The next day, when they had come out from Bethany, he became hungry. And from a distance he caught sight of a fig tree that had leaves, and he went to see whether he would perhaps find something on it. But, on coming to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season of figs.


Q: If Jehovah really was in the world as the man Jesus, then why didn't He know by omniscience that the fig tree would have no fruit? Why was it necessary for Him to examine it up close in person?

A: Jehovah's conduct in that matter would've been unusual but by no means uncharacteristic.

In the 11th chapter of Genesis, the people built themselves a tower. Jehovah came down to see the tower. Now, if Jehovah is omnipresent and omniscient, then why bother coming down out of heaven to inspect the tower in person?

In the 18th chapter of Genesis, Jehovah announced to Abraham that He was on a journey to visit Sodom in order to determine whether the reports He was hearing about the city were true or not. Again: if Jehovah is omnipresent and omniscient, why bother coming down out of heaven to visit Sodom in person?

In the 22nd chapter of Genesis, Jehovah had Abraham offer his son as a sacrifice made with fire. At the conclusion of the event; a celestial being-- speaking for Jehovah and speaking as Jehovah --said: "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me."

It goes without saying that Jehovah knows every man's thoughts, and He also knows the future, viz: nothing we do, say, or think catches Jehovah by surprise; He sees everything. So then, if Jehovah already knew in advance that Abraham would offer Isaac, and already knew in advance that Abraham was God-fearing, then why did He say "now I know"? Shouldn't Jehovah have already known?

The only sensible answer to those questions, including the question about the fig tree, is that there is a humanness to God that began quietly coming to light all the way back in the very beginning of the Bible; but the New Testament is where we see God's humanness on display even more.

● John 1:18 . . No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god, who is in the bosom position with the Father, is the one that has explained him.

"explained him" is accurate enough but doesn't really say it right-- "revealed him" is much better.

● John 14:7 . . . If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him. Philip said to him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him: "Have I been with you men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father also.


Q: Well then, why didn't Jesus use his divine powers to make that tree produce fruit for him to eat right then and there on the spot instead of cursing the poor thing?

A: Isn't that similar to the Devil's reasoning in the 4th chapter of Matthew?

The fact of the matter is: Jesus was micro-managed. He cursed that fig tree in compliance with his Father's wishes to do so.

● John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing of my own initiative

● John 8:29 . . He that sent me is with me; He did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to Him.

● John 10:30 . . I and my Father are unified

●  John 14:10 . . Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father, and the Father is in union with me?
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 14, 2018, 11:11:35 am
.
THOMAS' GOD(S)

● John 20:28 . . Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!"

"God" is from the Greek word theós

Many moons ago; I asked some Watchtower Society missionaries to explain to me why their Bible translated theós in upper case in Thomas' statement seeing as how in Watchtower theology; only Jehovah should be referred to with capital letters. Well; they were too inexperienced to explain and my question left them stumped.

The fact of the matter is: in John 20:28, theós is modified by the Greek definite article "ho". So by the Society's own rules; its translators had to use upper case because it is their practice that whenever theós is modified by the Greek definite article, then the upper case is required.

For argument's sake; let's remove the upper cases and translate the passage like this:

Thomas said to him: "my lord and my god!"

We could tolerate a lower case lord because that was a common way to address just about any superior back in those days, whether divine or otherwise; for example 1Pet 3:6.

However; we would have difficulty with a lower case god because the passage is possessive. In other words: the apostle Thomas didn't just declare that Jesus was a god. No, Thomas clearly declared that Jesus was his god.

The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with Jehovah in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy forbids them to possess more than one god.

"And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying: I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. You must not have any other gods against my face." (Ex 20:1-30

"against my face" is a combination of two Hebrew words that essentially refer to God's competitors. In other words: it is not Jehovah's wishes to have a market share of His people's affections; no, He'll settle for nothing less than 100%. (cf. Mark 12:28-30)

If the apostle Thomas was a Torah-trained Jew, then he was fully aware that possessing any other god but Jehovah would incur the covenant's curse upon himself.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the one who will not put the words of this law in force by doing them.

The way I see it: the Society has two options. Either the apostle Thomas knew what he was doing when he addressed Jesus as his god, or he meant to say something else.

Now, if the apostle Thomas knew what he was doing when he addressed Jesus as his god, then John Q and Jane Doe JWs need to ask around and find out why it is that Jesus Christ was the apostle Thomas' god but he isn't the Watchtower Society's god.

Plus: I would really like to know how it is that the apostle Thomas and the Watchtower Society are poles apart in their opinions of Christ's divine status when Thomas actually associated with Christ and was one of his close personal friends.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 15, 2018, 08:09:09 pm
.
CHRIST'S GOD

● John 20:17 . . Be on your way to my brothers and say to them; "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."


Q: If Jesus is God, as classical Christianity claims, then how can he have a god? Does God worship Himself?

A: I have yet to encounter the language of John 20:17 in reverse, viz: I have yet to see a passage in the Bible where the Father refers to His son as "my God".

For simplicity's sake; it helps to think of the true God as a species; viz: if indeed a true God were to beget a child, He would beget a child of like species; i.e. a true God would beget a true divine being like Himself because that's the only kind of offspring that a true God could engender; just as when a true human begets a child, they beget a child of like species i.e. they beget a true human being like themselves because that's the only kind of offspring that a true human can engender.

There is a hierarchy in the divine relationship just as there is a hierarchy in human relationships. Though all members of a human family are equally human, they are not all equal in rank and privilege; some are superior and some are subordinate. (cf. John 14:28, 1Cor 15:28)

Now, we can volley back and forth with JWs, countering each other's verses with more verses: verse upon verse; but I can just about guarantee that us and they will both be chasing our tails and getting nowhere unless we approach the Son's relationship to his Father from a biological perspective; which is a perspective that just about anybody with even a cursory knowledge of the birds and the bees can understand with ease.

The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society calls Jesus "the only-begotten son from a Father" and also "the only-begotten god". Well, don't let that mislead you. The Society dare not accept Christ's status as God's literal offspring because the ramifications would require that they revise their theology.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 16, 2018, 08:15:30 pm
.
LEARNING OBEDIENCE

● Heb 5:7-9 . . In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him

The "perfection" Jesus Christ obtained by means of suffering is directly related to his high priesthood rather than his personal conduct.

● Heb 5:10 . . Because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek.

In order for a high priest to be effective, he has to be capable of empathy.

● Heb 5:1-3 . . For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf of men over the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal moderately with the ignorant and erring ones since he also is surrounded with his own weakness, and on its account he is obliged to make offerings for sins as much for himself as for the people.

Jesus Christ of course could do no wrong of his own; but he was put through the wringer so he'd have a taste of what us mere mortals face every day of our lives.

● Heb 4:15 . . For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.

Hence, the purpose of the suffering that the Son endured was for a far different purpose than the discipline which the Father's lesser sons are put through at Heb 12:5-11 since according to 1John 3:9 and Col 2:9 it was, and it still is, impossible for God's son to ever be unholy, or unrighteous, or disobedient.

In other words; the Son's suffering was for the purpose of experiencing first-hand what it's like to obey as a human being. As the Word in heaven, obedience is his way of life because according to John 1:1-14, the Word is a god; but the rest of us are mere mortals. Obedience isn't a piece of cake for those of us who are only human.

It's one thing to sympathize and say you feel your fellow man's pain; but in order to truly empathize with his pain; you've got to go through it yourself. It's exactly that which makes Jesus an excellent choice for high priesthood in heaven because the things he suffered made him a "merciful" high priest; viz: an high priest that's truly one of us instead of an indifferent judgmental bigot from another world.

During America's dust bowl era in the 1930's, the Federal Farm Security Administration sent out an educated young lady named Sonora Babb to counsel migrant farm workers out west. Nobody trusted her until they found out she grew up in the so-called No Man's Land of the southern great plains. Sonora wasn't just another indifferent stuffed-shirt bureaucrat. She was familiar with the dust bowlers' way of life first-hand, and it made all the difference in the quality of her rapport with migrant farm workers.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 16, 2018, 08:17:05 pm
.
I'm not in the habit of offering unsolicited spiritual counseling on internet forums; but today I probably should.

Post No.36 addressed Christ's high priesthood. Non-anointed Jehovah's Witnesses-- a.k.a. the earthly class; viz: the hewers of wood and haulers of water, the great crowd ---do not have direct access to it, rather, they have indirect access to Christ's high priesthood via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society. (See post No.13)

May I suggest to any and/or all JWs hereabout that they take advantage of whatever degree of access they have for now and speak up candidly and forthrightly with Christ, asking him if there isn't some way to take advantage of his high priesthood's services without having to be affiliated with the Watchtower Society; i.e. as a free moral agent instead of dependent upon a hierarchy.

It's a reasonable request, and I'm pretty sure if asked in all honesty and sincerity that Christ will get back to its inquirer with a response.

● John 6:37-28 . . Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.

● Heb 4:16 . . Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 17, 2018, 05:30:24 pm
.
THE PARAKLETOS

● John 14:16-17 . . I will request the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.

● John 14:26 . .The helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.

John Q and Jane Doe non-anointed Watchtower Society missionaries are taught to believe that God's spirit is alongside assisting them to identify, and to understand, the correct interpretations of the Bible. However, the Society's missionaries are also taught that only a special guild of 144,000 anointed Jehovah's Witnesses actually have the spirit  "inside" them rather than only alongside and that is very serious. Here's why:

● Rom 8:9 . .You are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God's spirit truly dwells in you.

Seeing as how God's spirit does not truly dwell in John Q and Jane Doe missionary, then they are, by default, in harmony with the flesh. That only makes things worse. Here's why:

● Rom 8:5-8 . . For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those in accord with the spirit on the things of the spirit. For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.

Their situation is just too ironic for words: John Q and Jane Doe missionaries displease God, and He displeases them; yet they go door-to-door sincerely believing themselves Jehovah's friends and allies.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 19, 2018, 08:43:56 pm
.
THE LAST ADAM

● 1Cor 15:45a . . The first man Adam became a living soul.

● 1Cor 15:47 . .The first man is out of the earth and made of dust

Those verses are references to Gen 2:7, which reads like this:

"Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul."

The Watchtower Society alleges that Jehovah God wasn't directly involved in creating the first man, rather, His involvement was indirect. According to them, the actual work was done by the hand of a divine being called the Word.

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (John 1:1-3)

Seeing as that's the case; then the breath of life spoken of in Gen 2:7 was blown into the first man's nostrils by the Word. In all respects then, we owe the beginning of the original human race to the Word just as much as we owe it to Jehovah God because both are given credit for its origin.

● 1Cor 15:45b . .The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

That verse speaks of the origin of yet another human race. This second human race wasn't made of dust from the ground, nor was it given consciousness by blowing into its nostrils the breath of life, nor did it come to be a living soul.

Up to this point; I'm told of only two life-giving spirits in the Bible: the Word and Jehovah God. So unless there is now three life-giving spirits, I feel safe to conclude that the last Adam is one of the two; i.e. he's either the Word or he's Jehovah God. Well; it's easy to show by John 1:14 that the last Adam and the Word are one and the same person.

"So the Word became flesh and resided among us"

Q: When did this last Adam become a life-giving spirit? At his birth or at his resurrection?

A: According to John 5:26 and 1John 1:1-2, the Word is an everlasting life which, according to Gen 21:33 and Rom 16:26, is an indestructible category of life that's impervious to death. And according to John 1:1, the Word is a god. Well; people die, but gods never die. (Ps 82:6-7)

So the Word didn't go out of existence when he came into the world as an h.sapiens; which means of course that Jesus Christ was a life-giving spirit right from the moment of his conception rather than at his resurrection; i.e. he was capable of giving life prior to his crucifixion.

Speaking to the Jews of his day; Jesus said:

"My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life" (John 10:27-28)

"You are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet you do not want to come to me that may have life." (John 10:39-40)

Q: So you're saying a created man pioneered the original human race; and a man who's both creator and created pioneered the second human race?

A: Yes.

● 1Cor 15:47 . .The second man is out of heaven.

● John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven

● John 6:42 . . They began saying: Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says: I have come down from heaven?

The dual nature of Christ's existence is a fatal hang-up for the Watchtower Society due to its spurious belief that it's impossible for the Word to exist as a human being and a spirit being simultaneously. But the evidence is very difficult to refute.

It ain't what you know that gets you into trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

(Mark Twain)
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 20, 2018, 11:06:18 am
.
THE ANOINTING

● 1John 2:26-27 . .These things I write you about those who are trying to mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.

The anointing provides people with some valuable advantages to which people who lack it of course have no access.

1• Protects people from deception

2• Enables people to grasp Jesus Christ's teachings the way he wants them grasped

3• Makes it possible for people to remain in union with him.

According to Watchtower Society theology, only 144,000 special Jehovah's Witnesses have the anointing. There aren't that many living Witnesses who have the anointing though because when anointed Witnesses die, their passing doesn't create vacancies; viz: 144,000 is the maximum unless an anointed JW either apostatizes or is ousted via the process of disfellowship.

What that means is: the vast majority of today's living JWs don't have the anointing. We're talking about some serious numbers here. Currently, there are approximately 8.2 million living Witnesses. Even if all 144,000 anointed Witnesses were alive today, that would leave 8,056,000 JWs roaming the earth in our day who 1) have no protection from deception, 2) are unable to grasp Jesus Christ's teachings the way he wants them grasped, and 3) not in union with him.

Doubtless there are numbers of ordinary Witnesses who sincerely believe that their association with the Watchtower Society keeps them in union with Jesus Christ; but according to 1John 2:26-27, union with Jesus Christ isn't accomplished on the coattails of an organization; it's accomplished by means of the anointing.

Watchtower Society missionaries sincerely believing themselves in union with Jesus Christ without the anointing are each themselves "one of those who are trying to mislead you".
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 20, 2018, 03:00:43 pm
I have compassion for the over eight million JWs. They've been misled, deceived, brainwashed, intimidated, threatened, emotionally blackmailed. Their families are split apart. Many who are disfellowshipped are committing suicide because of being cut off from their families who shun them and view them as dead. Jesus had compassion for people who were like sheep without a shepherd.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 21, 2018, 06:33:58 pm
.
UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT

POSIT: It is impossible for Jesus Christ to be in heaven as a human being in the presence of God because 1Tim 6:16 says that the king of all kings dwells in an unapproachable light, whom "not one of men" has seen or can see.

RESPONSE: The Greek word translated "unapproachable" also means inaccessible; which right there attests that humanity needs a mediator between itself and the light to provide them at least an indirect access.

Note that the passage below is misquoted. Watch for the revision.

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men; an angel: Christ Michael." (1Tim 2:5)

No, that passage doesn't actually say "an angel" nor does it actually say "Christ Michael". Here it is for real.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men; a man: Christ Jesus."

The Greek word for men, as well as the word for man, is derived from anthropos (anth'-ro-pos) --a common koiné Greek word for human beings in the New Testament; in other words:

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and anthroópoon; an  ánthroopos: Christ Jesus."

So it's readily seen from a cursory examination of the Greek that the mediator spoken of in 1Tim 2:5 is a human being rather than an angel.

Seeing as how Christ is allowed access to the inaccessible light as a human being, then it's safe to conclude that there has to be something very unusual about him.

Well; for one thing, his body is no longer that of mortal men. When he went up to heaven, Christ's body underwent a miraculous transformation. It's still human, that we know, but its chemistry is unlike any human body on Earth. (1Cor 15:50-53)

For another, Christ is not only human, but also divine (John 1:1, John 1:18, and Col 2:9). That alone would surely be enough to grant him some special privileges, and it does. For example: the angel Gabriel stands in the presence of God (Luke 1:19) while Christ the man is seated. (Ps 110:1, Col 3:1)
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 22, 2018, 03:50:46 pm
.
MATTERS OF CONSCIENCE

Some of the Watchtower Society's ethics rub people the wrong way. For example they don't celebrate birthdays, observe Christmas, participate in Halloween, serve in the military, nor allow blood transfusions.

Their feelings about special days are protected by the fourteenth chapter of Romans so it would be extremely unchristian to criticize them on that front.

Their feelings about blood transfusions appear tenable from the passages below.

● Gen 9:3-4 . . Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul-- its blood --you must not eat.

● Lev 7:26-27 . .You must not eat any blood in any places where you dwell, whether that of fowl or that of beast. Any soul who eats any blood, that soul must be cut off from his people.

● Lev 17:10-As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people.

● Acts 15:19-20 . . Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain . . from blood.

The Society construes those passages to imply that transfusing blood is all the same as using it for food.

Rather than get into a semantic quarrel with the Society over its interpretation of those passages; I suggest another tact. And our purpose is not to win a debate; only to offer a second opinion.

The Jews' sabbath law is very narrow. In point of fact, the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God imposes capital punishment for sabbath violators. (Ex 31:14-15)

Now, that is very interesting because Jesus broke the sabbath on a number of occasions, and when doing so based his actions upon the principle that human life, safety, and welfare trump strict observance of religious law.

One of the best illustrations I've seen of a die-hard legalist was a cartoon showing a man behind the wheel of his car stopped at a red light while huge landslide boulders are within seconds of crushing to death him, his family, and the family dog. While his wife and children shriek in mortal panic, the legalist calmly points out that he can't move the car until the light turns green.

Legalists typically refuse to accept the possibility of extenuating circumstances, which Webster's defines as: to lessen, or to try to lessen, the seriousness or extent of by making partial excuses; viz: mitigate.

Although it's illegal to run red lights, those boulders rumbling down the hill to crush the man's family to death unless he moves the car, are an acceptable excuse to go before the light turns green. In those kinds of cases, human life, safety, and welfare trump strict conformity to the law.

Compare Ex 1:15-21 where Jewish midwives lied through their teeth in order to save the lives of little Jewish boys. Did God punish the midwives for the sin of lying? No, on the contrary; He overlooked their dishonesty and instead rewarded the midwives' actions with families of their own. In point of fact, their actions were adjudged as fearing the true God. (Ex 1:21)

Should someone reading this section chance to discuss blood transfusions with a JW from Christ's sabbath perspective; I urge them to go about it with the utmost in civility because this is an emotional issue. Should your JW audience come to the realization that they've made a monstrous mistake, they will be overwhelmed with guilt, disappointment, and humiliation; not to mention fear of the organizational tsunami that'll come their way should they dare to question the Society's stance on blood transfusions.

● Col 3:12 . . Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved: clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, and mildness.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 23, 2018, 09:07:33 am
.
UNDESERVED KINDNESS

● John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

The ancient Greek word from which "undeserved kindness" is derived is charitos; which itself is derived from charis.

"undeserved kindness" isn't a translation of the word charis; it's the Watchtower Society's own opinion of what they think that word ought to mean. It's literal meaning is graciousness.

John Q and Jane Doe Witness are being deprived  of viewing some very pleasant aspects of the only-begotten son's personality by interpreting charis to mean undeserved kindness because graciousness says some wonderful things about not only the flesh that the Word became; but also about the Father from whom the Word came.

To begin with; Webster's defines "graciousness" as; kind, courteous, inclined to good will, generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial, affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.

Cordial stresses warmth and heartiness

Affable implies easy approachability and readiness to respond pleasantly to conversation or requests or proposals

Genial stresses cheerfulness and even joviality

Sociable suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others

Generous is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz: magnanimous, kindly, and liberal in giving

Charitable means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz: benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.

Altruistic means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others; viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels good to do so.

Tactful indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary conflict.

Here's a couple of passages from the NWT where the Society's translation committee had the decency to let charis speak for itself instead of butting in to tell people what they think it ought to mean.

"Keep on teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, praises to God, spiritual songs with graciousness" (Col 3:16)

"Let your utterance be always with graciousness." (Col 4:6)


NOTE: The claim that the only begotten son is somehow undeserving of kindness is of course 110% false. Worthiness is in every fiber of Christ's being. (Dan 7:13-14, Phil 2:8-11, Rev 5:1-14, Rev 19:11)
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 24, 2018, 01:43:10 pm
.
SHEOL / HADES

● Jonah 1:17 . . Jehovah appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, so that Jonah came to be in the inward parts of the fish three days and three nights.


Q: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

A: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

Q: The whole time?

A: No.

At some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he sited at the bottoms of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the bottoms of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, no; they're located down deep in the Earth. So, the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the bottoms of the mountains while in the belly of a fish at the same time was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Christ paralleled his own afterlife journey with Jonah's.

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

So, the only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of that Earth while in the heart of the Earth at the same time; was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Just before being cast ashore, Jonah prayed thus:

● Jonah 2:6 . . But out of the pit you proceeded to bring up my life, O Jehovah my God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" in that verse is the very same word for pit in Ps 16:8-10; which Acts 2:25-31 verifies is speaking of putrefaction. In other words: Jonah 2:6 tells of the prophet's flesh just as Ps 16:8-10 and Acts 2:25-31 tell of Christ's flesh.

"My own flesh will reside in security. For you will not leave my soul in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit." (Ps 16:9-10)

"you will not leave my soul in Sheol" speaks of the bottoms of the mountains, a.k.a. the heart of the Earth.

"You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit" speaks of putrefaction; viz: Christ's flesh was restored to life before nature's processes could dissolve it.


Q: What does the story of Jonah have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses?

A: JWs are taught to believe that human life is entirely physical; viz: when people die they cease to exist. Well; were that belief a reality; then Jesus would've ceased to exist when he passed away on the cross.

Jonah's experience is handy for illustrating Jesus' experience; viz: if Jonah existed at the bottoms so the mountains while his flesh was deceased in the tummy of a fish, then Jesus existed in the heart of the Earth while his flesh was deceased in a tomb.

Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites and also a sign to Jesus' generation (Matt 13:39-40, Luke 11:29-30). The word "sign" is translated from a koiné Greek word that's sometimes used in the gospels to indicate miracles.

Had Jonah stayed alive in the fish's tummy, that would not be the kind of sign that Jesus had in mind. He needed a miraculous event that would adequately depict his own; the reason being that Jesus' flesh was on track to be returned to life. (John 2:19-21)

Jonah, coupled with Ps 16:8-10, Acts 2:25-31, and Matt 12:39-40 proves that Jesus continued to exist out of body when he passed away; and if he and Jonah did, then there's reason to expect that everyone else does too.

My only question is: How was Jonah a sign to the people of Nineveh? The city was located up around northern Iraq; approximately 400 miles from the Mediterranean Sea. It's my guess travelers on their way to Nineveh witnessed Jonah exit the fish, and upon arrival in the city spread their amazing tale far and wide. If so, that would help explain why the people took Jonah's message to heart instead of mocking him as just another kooky itinerant preacher.

If Jesus Christ's resurrection is true-- if his dead body actually recovered just as Jonah's-- then Jesus most certainly is the one man in the New Testament that everybody really ought to approach with a great deal of caution because Jonah's message warned of the impending destruction of just one city; while Jesus' message warns of the impending destruction of many cities. (Rev 16:17-19)

● Matt 12:41 . . Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, look! something more than Jonah is here.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 25, 2018, 07:05:58 pm
.
GHOST RIDERS IN THE SKY

● 1Thess 4:16-17 . .The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

I'm going to revise a portion of that passage slightly in order to bring out a point.

"with the archangel's voice"

No, it doesn't say the archangel's voice, rather, it says "an" archangel's voice; so I think it would be a mistake to assume that 1Thss 4:16-17 is referring to the archangel Michael spoken of in Jude 1:9 when, in point of fact, according to Dan 10:13, there's more than one archangel.

Archangels are very high ranking, but there is another personage even higher in rank than they spoken of in Josh 5:13-15; a being whose rank is described as captain of Jehovah's forces; and in the captain's presence, Joshua was required to remove his shoes; same as Moses at the burning bush. (Ex 3:1-5)


NOTE: The title "Son of Man" in Matt 24:30-31 alerts us to the fact that the Lord himself spoken of in 1Thess 4:16-17 will be a human being rather than a spirit being.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 26, 2018, 09:43:00 am
.
THE BREATH OF LIFE   

Human existence is thought by some to be entirely organic. It's not. There's a non-organic element to human existence called the breath of life.

● Gen 2:7a . . And Jehovah God formed a man's body

Mankind's creator didn't give birth to humanity like women give birth to children, or baby chicks hatch from eggs; no, humans aren't God's biological progeny --humans are God's handiwork like the glass products manufactured by craftsmen in Murano; where they make things from scratch using mostly sand for their base material.

● Gen 2:7b . . from the dust of the ground

The Hebrew word for "dust" is a bit ambiguous. It essentially refers to powder, but can also be translated clay, earth, mud, mortar, ashes, and/or rubbish.

● Gen 2:7c . . and breathed into it the breath of life

The word for "breathed" is from naphach (naw-fakh') and means; among other things: to kindle; which Webster's defines as (1) to start (a fire) burning: light, (2) to stir up: arouse, (3) to bring into being: start, and (4) to animate.

Naphach is sort of like what Indy Car drivers do when they're given the order to start their engines-- they light 'em up, so to speak: for example:

"What has come into existence by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:3-4)

The word for "breath" is neshamah (nesh-aw-maw') which means: a puff. Neshamah is a bit ambiguous and has been variously translated air, soul, spirit, blast, and inspiration.

What we're looking at here is a kind of artificial respiration, but not the regular kind because it doesn't do a bit of good pumping air into the lungs of a corpse. They won't come alive like that; it's been tried.

However, there's evidence in the Bible, starting in Genesis, indicating that it's possible to pump life into a corpse: in point of fact into anything, even stones (Matt 3:9, Luke 19:40).

● Gen 2:7c . . and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew word for "soul" is nephesh (neh'-fesh). Its first appearance is at Gen 1:20-21 in reference to aqua creatures and winged creatures; again at Gen 1:24 as terra creatures; viz: cattle, creepy crawlies, and wild beasts; and again in Gen 2:7 as the human creature.

Creatures within whom is the breath of life are perishable (e.g. Gen 7:21-22) but I have yet to encounter a passage in the Bible clearly stating that the breath of life itself is perishable. In point of fact, I think it is very easy to prove that the human creature's breath of life is not only a permanent feature of their existence; but also prevents them from going out of existence.

For example: when Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 passed away, they all left the organic portion of their existence behind-- viz: their bodies --yet on the other side they are perceptive; fully conscious, and fully sentient.

I don't know for sure in what form they exist on the other side, but one thing I do know is that they have not ceased to exist as individuals, nor have they lost their identities-- Abraham is still Abraham, Lazarus is still Lazarus, and the rich man is still the rich man; and that has to be because they retained their breath of life when they crossed over to the other side.

For example; in Watchtower theology, Michael the arch angel had to die in order to become a human being. Now, the amazing part of the story is that Michael didn't go completely out of existence when he died.

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

So, if it's possible for God to transfer the life force of a dead spirit being into a human body in order to preserve its continuity of life, then I see no reason to question whether God can do the very same thing in reverse; viz: transfer the life force of dead human beings into spirit bodies; thus preserving their continuity of life.

● Heb 12:22-23 . . But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect,

The words "spiritual lives" are a construed interpretation of the Greek word pneúmasi which actually means spirits rather than spiritual lives; and is so translated in something like 32 verses in regular Bibles, including, but not limited to, the spirits in prison. (1Pet 3:19)


NOTE: The Watchtower Society's Bible contains quite a few places where Greek words are construed rather than translated. For example Rev 16:13-14 where pneúmasi is said to be "inspired expressions" instead of spirits.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 28, 2018, 07:49:31 am
.
OF MICE AND MEN

● Luke 12:16-20 . . He spoke an illustration to them, saying: The land of a certain rich man produced well. Consequently he began reasoning within himself, saying, "What shall I do, now that I have nowhere to gather my crops?"

. . . So he said, "I will do this: I will tear down my storehouses and build bigger ones, and there I will gather all my grain and all my good things; and I will say to my soul: Soul, you have many good things laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, enjoy yourself."

. . . But God said to him, "Unreasonable one; this night they are demanding your soul from you. Who, then, is to have the things you stored up?"

I suppose there's any number of ways to interpret that illustration; but I am impressed by the fact that man's plan failed to take into account the fragility of life.

● Ps 146:3-4 . . Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.

The Hebrew word for "thoughts" in that passage is 'eshtonah (esh-to naw') which means: thinking.

Unfortunately, Ps 146:4 is the only place in the entire Old Testament where 'eshtonah appears so we can't compare its uses in other contexts.

According to Webster's the word "thinking" is ambiguous with quite a variety of meanings to choose from; including, but not limited to: concerns, anticipations, conceptions, opinions, imaginations, visualizations, ideas, epiphanies, plans, schemes, fantasies, arguments, aspirations, deliberations, and the like.

For the rich man in Jesus' illustration; I would choose ideas, plans, and schemes.

For example: consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center, and in the Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, and the Haiti earthquake. None of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but before the day ended; whatever was on their itinerary lost its importance-- their priorities went right out the window and became no more significant than green cheese on the moon.

All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their schemes, their problems, their ambitions, their loves, and their aspirations went right down the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole new reality to cope with.

So then, an alternative to the Watchtower Society's interpretation is that people don't cease to exist when they die nor do their cognitive processes stop working; no, Ps 146:4 only means that whatever was on their minds before they passed away is now null and void.

Take for example Michael Jackson. While working on a new world tour, Jackson died in his sleep. As a result; his tour wrapped on the spot.

When my eldest nephew was paroled from prison, he quit drinking, and began going to college with the goal towards becoming a counselor. For 2˝ years all went well. His parole officer was happy, and he was on track and getting good grades. My nephew's future looked assured. And then on the morning of Sept 25, 2015, he dropped dead to the floor of natural causes.

My nephew's passing was a terrible disappointment to everybody; but actually we all kind of expected it. He was grossly overweight, had high blood pressure and high cholesterol, rarely exercised, and smoked. But the point is; my nephew's dream ended just as abruptly as flipping a light switch. And all of our hopes for his success ended the same way.

Death is the mortal enemy of human ambitions. It often casts its long shadow when they set about planning their lives. The Scottish poet Robert Burns noticed that life sometimes throws a curve ball that makes all your careful preparations strike out instead of getting you on base.

He was out one day plowing in the field and uprooted a mouse's underground nest who was all set for the oncoming winter. The mouse had picked a fallow field as the site for its winter retreat thinking it would be safe and snug; unmolested during the cold. But it didn't (or maybe we should say it couldn't) know the workings of powers higher than itself-- in this case, farmers and their machinery.

Mousie, you are not alone in proving foresight may be vain.
The best laid schemes of mice and men go often askew,
And leave us naught but grief and pain for promised joy.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 29, 2018, 07:46:55 pm
.
SOLOMON vs JESUS

● 2Tim 3:16 . . All scripture is inspired of God

Followers of Islam claim that the entirety of the Koran was given to Muhammad via word for word voice dictation; but Christians dare not make the same claim for the Old Testament, viz: though it's all inspired, it was not all given via word for word voice dictation.

Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Jesus' teachings in the New Testament. Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations from the perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the perspective of a man under the sun; viz: a down to earth thinking man whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven.

In other words: Ecclesiastes is one man's world view-- his personal philosophy of life --rather than a book of either history or prophecy; and it's loaded with pessimism; which is basically a mindset inclined to dwell on the negative in human experience rather than the positive. For example::

"You only go around once, so do it with all the gusto you can get!"

That was a Schlitz beer advertisement some years ago. It's worldly wisdom thru and thru rather than heavenly. Compare it to a couple of Solomon's remarks:

● Ecc 9:5 . . The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all

● Ecc 9:10 . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

Same wisdom as Schlitz beer wisdom.

Solomon was a very wise man; in point of fact, he was the brightest intellectual of his day. But Solomon's knowledge and experience were limited. He didn't know everything there is to know, nor had he seen everything there is to see, nor been everywhere there is to go.

● Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here.

In other words; Jesus' wisdom trumps Solomon's.

● John 1:1-3 . . In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

● Col 2:3 . . Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.

And Jesus' comes highly recommended too.

● Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.

So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, my unsolicited spiritual counseling is: go with "my Son".

● John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on November 30, 2018, 07:37:16 pm
.
MISSIONARIES AT YOUR DOOR

Should you decide to go head to head with Watchtower Society missionaries, here's some useful tips passed on by Pete, the ex Jehovah's Witness mentioned at the first.

1• Round up a copy of the Watchtower Society's New World Translation of the Bible, and its Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. Sometimes these are available in second hand stores like Good Will and Salvation Army. Both are available online from amazon dot com.

For some useful insights into a variety of Jehovah's Witness teachings, the little brown book titled Reasoning From The Scriptures is a must-have. It's available online too. Be sure to get the Watchtower Society's version instead of another book by the same name authored by a different agency.

2• Do not let these people get personal with you. You must never ever assume they are your friends because first and foremost their primary interest is in making you a life-long slave to the Watchtower Society. You can be courteous and you can be civil, but it's highly recommended that you not let them into your life.

3• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it with you; thus taking control of both your thinking and the meeting.

4• Don't let them get too far into their spiel, but at the first opportunity begin introducing your own questions; thus denying them complete control of the conversation.

5• Do not debate. You're not a salesman pushing a product, nor a recruiter, nor a candidate running for an elected office: you're not on a quota, you're not out to win anything, nor are you required to win-- you're a herald; viz: a messenger. Your information is best presented as a second opinion for them to think about; and that's all. No hammering and no pressuring.

The goal is to show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only expert opinion out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because the Governing Body says so.

6• Avoid getting embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas, Christmas trees, the design and construction of the wooden device upon which Christ was crucified, saluting the flag, service in the military, and that sort of thing. There are much bigger fish to fry than those.

The No.1 issue on their minds when they come to your door will likely be Jehovah's kingdom, in particular, the portion of His kingdom to be on Earth.

7• Make them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not let them digress, change the subject, go off on a tangent, nor get distracted and/or turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking. If they start digging through their bags, shuffling papers, tinkering with their tablets, or looking up a reference; call them on it because there is no use in speaking when their minds are elsewhere occupied.

8• Do not permit them to interrupt you and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly, insist that they hold their peace until you've said your piece.

9• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

10• Do not react and/or respond to ad hominems, which can be defined as a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

11• These people undergo hour upon hour of training to refute standard Christian doctrines, so it's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already seen, but in ways they've never imagined.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on January 10, 2019, 10:25:14 pm
.
MISSIONARIES AT YOUR DOOR

Should you decide to go head to head with Watchtower Society missionaries, here's some useful tips passed on by Pete, the ex Jehovah's Witness mentioned at the first.

1• Round up a copy of the Watchtower Society's New World Translation of the Bible, and its Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. Sometimes these are available in second hand stores like Good Will and Salvation Army. Both are available online from amazon dot com.

For some useful insights into a variety of Jehovah's Witness teachings, the little brown book titled Reasoning From The Scriptures is a must-have. It's available online too. Be sure to get the Watchtower Society's version instead of another book by the same name authored by a different agency.

2• Do not let these people get personal with you. You must never ever assume they are your friends because first and foremost their primary interest is in making you a life-long slave to the Watchtower Society. You can be courteous and you can be civil, but it's highly recommended that you not let them into your life.

3• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it with you; thus taking control of both your thinking and the meeting.

4• Don't let them get too far into their spiel, but at the first opportunity begin introducing your own questions; thus denying them complete control of the conversation.

5• Do not debate. You're not a salesman pushing a product, nor a recruiter, nor a candidate running for an elected office: you're not on a quota, you're not out to win anything, nor are you required to win-- you're a herald; viz: a messenger. Your information is best presented as a second opinion for them to think about; and that's all. No hammering and no pressuring.

The goal is to show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only expert opinion out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because the Governing Body says so.

6• Avoid getting embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas, Christmas trees, the design and construction of the wooden device upon which Christ was crucified, saluting the flag, service in the military, and that sort of thing. There are much bigger fish to fry than those.

The No.1 issue on their minds when they come to your door will likely be Jehovah's kingdom, in particular, the portion of His kingdom to be on Earth.

7• Make them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not let them digress, change the subject, go off on a tangent, nor get distracted and/or turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking. If they start digging through their bags, shuffling papers, tinkering with their tablets, or looking up a reference; call them on it because there is no use in speaking when their minds are elsewhere occupied.

8• Do not permit them to interrupt you and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly, insist that they hold their peace until you've said your piece.

9• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

10• Do not react and/or respond to ad hominems, which can be defined as a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

11• These people undergo hour upon hour of training to refute standard Christian doctrines, so it's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already seen, but in ways they've never imagined.
_

Why do I want to experience a CULT?

Blade[/shadow]
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: patrick jane on May 28, 2019, 11:30:23 pm
What Jehovah's Witnesses Actually Believe (Dr. James R White)


26 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHeoJw1uTsA
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: Olde Tymer on May 29, 2019, 07:31:53 am
.
What Jehovah's Witnesses Actually Believe (Dr. James R White)

I found Dr. White on YouTube a few months ago. Besides the JWs, he's very knowledgeable about Islam and Atheism too.
_
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on May 29, 2019, 12:06:14 pm
I thought I had posted about the Masonic connection with the Watchtower Society. Charles Taze Russell was a Mason and his family is one of the bloodline families. He was buried in a Masonic graveyard next to a Masonic Lodge. There is a eight foot tall pyramid near his grave with the cross and crown. The cross is angled at 33 degrees. There is spirit channeling done at the Watchtower Headquarters, satanic connections. This is the foundation of that organization.

I could post many videos of former JWs that would verify all this. One video that I saw of a former JW really makes it clear. Her father was a Mason so she knows a lot about Masons. He was also an elder. She was a fifth generation JW. She decided to try a certain method to make other JWs aware of some things that are kept secret and hidden by the Watchtower Society.

I was really floored when she said that her father and other elders had a stomping on the bread and pouring the wine down the drain ceremony after a memorial. This was done after everyone else had left the Kingdom Hall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3jFlgYIKjU
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on October 20, 2019, 04:04:44 am
ROUND TABLE: Top 10 things that "Wake Up" Jehovah's Witnesses

The first round table discussion between myself, Diasiss Minnick and Jimmy bell. We cover the top 10 issues that woke us up from Watchtower:

1. Australian Royal Commission / CSA
2. Watchtower's involvement with the United Nations
3. The teaching that Jesus isn't your mediator
4. Failed dates/prophecies
5. Man-made rules not found in the Bible
6. False statements made by the governing body
7. Judiciary mishaps (such as divorce)
8. Shunning
9. Watchtower's questionable investments
10. How the culture affects children growing up as JWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGX3wNUqOE
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: patrick jane on November 11, 2019, 01:06:36 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmLIGeXXmLk
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 23, 2019, 01:24:59 am
This is a disfellowshipping of a JW that was secretly recorded. He was accused of apostasy which means that he disagreed mainly with the two witness rule in child sexual abuse cases within that organization. If a JW disagrees with the rules from the Governing Body then they are considered an apostate which is a disfellowshipping offense according to the Governing Body. If a JW speaks against the Governing Body then that is considered speaking against God. If a JW leaves that organization then they are told that they have left God.

Notice how these elders tried to deflect the conversation away from the child sexual abuse to other things because they couldn't defend that.

If you've ever wondered what disfellowshipping is like within the JW organization then this video really shows that. This is what is called a judicial hearing and a JW is not allowed to have anyone there to speak for them at all. That's why he secretly recorded the judicial hearing because it was his only evidence and protection for himself. Otherwise whatever was said in that judicial hearing would have been his word against these three elders who would have put their own spin on it.

The Governing Body needs to take a good look at this scripture when it comes to child sexual abuse coverup to protect their image. Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

The Disfellowshipping of Son Of Thunder caught on tape


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34xtDSX_kRc
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 23, 2019, 12:55:33 pm
Shunning at the Jehovah's Witness Convention 2015

Qualcomm Stadium, Saturday, June 6, San Diego.This years convention theme is "Imitate Jesus". The video speaks for itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUeuwsHS1Cg
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 23, 2019, 01:16:21 pm
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on November 24, 2019, 06:57:27 pm
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU

people still go there even though they have been classified a CULT>

Blade
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 25, 2019, 08:10:41 am
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU

people still go there even though they have been classified a CULT>

Blade
JWs don't believe that they are a cult. There are some who still go there because they don't want to be shunned by their family and friends and may realize that something isn't right with that organization but they feel trapped. Many of them who do leave become atheists. Some of them commit suicide because of being shunned. Others who leave become activists against that organization and try to expose it to JWs and the public.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on November 25, 2019, 10:49:37 pm
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU

people still go there even though they have been classified a CULT>

Blade
JWs don't believe that they are a cult. There are some who still go there because they don't want to be shunned by their family and friends and may realize that something isn't right with that organization but they feel trapped. Many of them who do leave become atheists. Some of them commit suicide because of being shunned. Others who leave become activists against that organization and try to expose it to JWs and the public.

Yes, I have first hand experience with them.....I had a patient that needed blood to live and she could not take it for they would throw her out of the church...She ask me what my opinion was and I told her the truth......She took the blood and they shunned her out of the Church....It took some time but I think she finally joined a different church where there was support and love.  After her stay in the Hospital, I lost contact with her and still do not know what happened to her...

Blade

Blade
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 26, 2019, 04:48:15 am
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU

people still go there even though they have been classified a CULT>

Blade
JWs don't believe that they are a cult. There are some who still go there because they don't want to be shunned by their family and friends and may realize that something isn't right with that organization but they feel trapped. Many of them who do leave become atheists. Some of them commit suicide because of being shunned. Others who leave become activists against that organization and try to expose it to JWs and the public.

Yes, I have first hand experience with them.....I had a patient that needed blood to live and she could not take it for they would throw her out of the church...She ask me what my opinion was and I told her the truth......She took the blood and they shunned her out of the Church....It took some time but I think she finally joined a different church where there was support and love.  After her stay in the Hospital, I lost contact with her and still do not know what happened to her...

Blade

Blade
Yes, the blood policy is a big issue with JWs. I think they have revised that now somewhat for blood fractions that are acceptable. I'm not sure exactly what that means for JWs. I don't really know what blood fractions are.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on November 26, 2019, 08:31:29 pm
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU

people still go there even though they have been classified a CULT>

Blade
JWs don't believe that they are a cult. There are some who still go there because they don't want to be shunned by their family and friends and may realize that something isn't right with that organization but they feel trapped. Many of them who do leave become atheists. Some of them commit suicide because of being shunned. Others who leave become activists against that organization and try to expose it to JWs and the public.

Yes, I have first hand experience with them.....I had a patient that needed blood to live and she could not take it for they would throw her out of the church...She ask me what my opinion was and I told her the truth......She took the blood and they shunned her out of the Church....It took some time but I think she finally joined a different church where there was support and love.  After her stay in the Hospital, I lost contact with her and still do not know what happened to her...

Blade

Blade
Yes, the blood policy is a big issue with JWs. I think they have revised that now somewhat for blood fractions that are acceptable. I'm not sure exactly what that means for JWs. I don't really know what blood fractions are.

Have you ever taken blood.....It can come from anyone, any color...I think this is their problem for the main part.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 26, 2019, 10:01:25 pm
JW Elders Treatment of Preacher at Watchtower Convention 2018

Jehovah's Witness Convention, San Diego, 2018. Unedited clip of JW Elders practicing this years motto, "Be Courageous".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex0jwDDTzU

people still go there even though they have been classified a CULT>

Blade
JWs don't believe that they are a cult. There are some who still go there because they don't want to be shunned by their family and friends and may realize that something isn't right with that organization but they feel trapped. Many of them who do leave become atheists. Some of them commit suicide because of being shunned. Others who leave become activists against that organization and try to expose it to JWs and the public.

Yes, I have first hand experience with them.....I had a patient that needed blood to live and she could not take it for they would throw her out of the church...She ask me what my opinion was and I told her the truth......She took the blood and they shunned her out of the Church....It took some time but I think she finally joined a different church where there was support and love.  After her stay in the Hospital, I lost contact with her and still do not know what happened to her...

Blade

Blade
Yes, the blood policy is a big issue with JWs. I think they have revised that now somewhat for blood fractions that are acceptable. I'm not sure exactly what that means for JWs. I don't really know what blood fractions are.

Have you ever taken blood.....It can come from anyone, any color...I think this is their problem for the main part.
I've had surgery five times. Yes, I have taken blood.

I've never thought about that being the reason why they have that blood policy. You might be right. They consider taking blood as eating blood even though it's intravenously. They also have a policy against organ transplants.
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on November 30, 2019, 10:22:36 am
I've learned something new about the Watchtower organization called Theocratic Warfare.  Jehovah's Witnesses are told that they are in "theocratic warfare" or "spiritual warfare" with the world. This warfare includes the strategy that being misleading, or even lying, is acceptable in situations where such dishonesty furthers the organization's interests.

"From time to time letters are received asking whether a certain circumstance would justify making an exception to the Christian’s obligation to tell the truth. In reply to these the following is given: God’s Word commands: “Speak truth each of you with his neighbor.” ...
There is one exception, however, that the Christian must ever bear in mind. As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God’s foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies...Watchtower 1960 Jun 1 pp.351,352 Questions From Readers

"We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive. ... As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies." Watchtower 1960 Jun 1 pp.351-352:


Anyone who is not a JW is considered to be a foe, worldly, so JWs are told that being misleading, or even lying, is acceptable in situations where such dishonesty furthers the organization's interests. Anything that reflects badly on the organization is lied about and covered up. Apparently the Governing Body must consider all JWs apart from themselves of course to be foes because they aren't told the truth.
 
"We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive." "We" as in the Governing Body, the ones at the top. The ones below them are not entitled to know so the Governing Body can lie and be evasive to them and feel justified in doing so. A need to know basis. Where have I heard that before.

This is what Theocratic Warfare is according to the Governing Body.


Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest8 on December 02, 2019, 08:15:31 pm
I've learned something new about the Watchtower organization called Theocratic Warfare.  Jehovah's Witnesses are told that they are in "theocratic warfare" or "spiritual warfare" with the world. This warfare includes the strategy that being misleading, or even lying, is acceptable in situations where such dishonesty furthers the organization's interests.

"From time to time letters are received asking whether a certain circumstance would justify making an exception to the Christian’s obligation to tell the truth. In reply to these the following is given: God’s Word commands: “Speak truth each of you with his neighbor.” ...
There is one exception, however, that the Christian must ever bear in mind. As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God’s foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies...Watchtower 1960 Jun 1 pp.351,352 Questions From Readers

"We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive. ... As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies." Watchtower 1960 Jun 1 pp.351-352:


Anyone who is not a JW is considered to be a foe, worldly, so JWs are told that being misleading, or even lying, is acceptable in situations where such dishonesty furthers the organization's interests. Anything that reflects badly on the organization is lied about and covered up. Apparently the Governing Body must consider all JWs apart from themselves of course to be foes because they aren't told the truth.
 
"We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive." "We" as in the Governing Body, the ones at the top. The ones below them are not entitled to know so the Governing Body can lie and be evasive to them and feel justified in doing so. A need to know basis. Where have I heard that before.

This is what Theocratic Warfare is according to the Governing Body.

Considered as Cult
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on December 18, 2019, 11:39:26 pm
This is a mind blowing video.

Who REALLY is JEHOVAH? Jehovah's Witnesses - Freemasonry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3UfzSe0wvI
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: patrick jane on February 29, 2020, 10:42:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaaJdhAVWyw&list=WL&index=15&t=0s
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on December 17, 2021, 12:53:32 am
My JW Uncle MURDERED 3 Of My Family Members Yesterday! Jehovah’s Witnesses ALERT EXJW
Former JW Bethelite, my Uncle Brent Hanson killed my Uncle Clyde Hanson, Aunt Jessica Hanson and their unborn baby on December 15, 2021


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbr6uvgO3hg
Title: Re: Experiencing Jehovah's Witnesses
Post by: guest17 on January 18, 2022, 04:42:52 pm
Suspected child abuser rearrested after search warrant served at church
[/b]
FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- Fresno County sheriff's detectives have arrested a suspected child abuser again after they say they uncovered evidence from a tenth woman, one who reported abuse in her childhood.

A new mugshot shows Anthony Escobedo last Tuesday after his third arrest in connection with a Fresno County sheriff's investigation.

Escobedo was already facing 15 charges ranging from annoying or molesting a child to possession of child pornography to ****.

But detectives believed there were still more victims from Escobedo's time as a Jehovah's Witness.

"Our investigation led us to believe there was additional information in the church documents in more or less their personnel files that they keep on parishioners," said Lt. Brandon Pursell of the Fresno County Sheriff's Office.
Court documents state they found reports naming a previously unknown potential victim.

Investigators said an interview with the alleged victim, who is now a grown woman, corroborated a story from one of the earlier victims and provided evidence of an additional alleged crime.

Prosecutors filed five new felony charges afterwards and detectives arrested Escobedo.

Investigators say they asked the church for the records, but ultimately executed a search warrant to get them.

Spokespeople for the Jehovah's Witness national organization say they're cooperating in the investigation.

They told Action News police were contacted about Escobedo's behavior five times between 2009 and 2016, which is when the church expelled Escobedo as a member.

"To our knowledge, the identity of every victim known to the congregation has been reported to the police," they said in a statement. "As we understand it, the authorities were contacted on five different occasions about various incidents. In addition, the police are in possession of all relevant congregation records, which include privileged communications between congregants and elders."

Detectives say they're still not sure they have the full picture.

"We're going to keep going," said Lt. Pursell. "We are. We're going to keep digging. We still have more forensic evidence that we're examining. If we can find more victims, we're going to."

Escobedo has pleaded not guilty to every charge he's faced so far and he's bailed out after each arrest.

His defense attorney pointed out to me that some of the new charges stem from incidents investigated years ago.

Tulare County investigators dropped a case in 2012 citing insufficient evidence and Fresno County prosecutors dropped another in 2014 for the same reason.

But prosecutor Andrew Janz says he now counts ten victims in at least three counties, so he believes Escobedo is too dangerous to be free and he'll try to convince a judge to keep him in custody.

"What we've seen is a progression in terms of his conduct," said Fresno County deputy district attorney Andrew Janz, who is prosecuting Escobedo's case. "Everything from minor groping to full-on molestation and the newest case being an allegation of ****. When we see conduct progress like this, it's a warning sign that it's only going to get worse from here."

A judge is scheduled to decide Tuesday whether Escobedo should stay behind bars without bail pending trial.


https://abc30.com/anthony-escobedo-new-charges/11481474/?fbclid=IwAR2CDeqISQZ8fBI_SqZaIDg-WI88dNszzd6UwWHXto-rEWXEf0Zbf0XImo8