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Discussion | Christian News | Chaplain's Office => Open Discussion => Topic started by: patrick jane on October 19, 2018, 04:03:39 pm


Title: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on October 19, 2018, 04:03:39 pm
(https://rlv.zcache.com/the_gay_lifestyle_button-r077ce33383d64c318a51c7bc2ebb1192_k94r8_307.jpg?rlvnet=1&rvtype=content)



Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?



Can someone who is a part of the LGBT community be a Christian?

Romans 3:23 -25 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.




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Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: guest13 on October 19, 2018, 08:37:33 pm
Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?


Can someone who is a part of the LGBT community be a Christian?

Well ... can someone who is living a promiscuous lifestyle (adultery, sex outside of marriage, etc.) be a Christian?  My college youth pastor who sang at my wedding, ended up divorced after committing adultery with the wife of the music director.  I knew them all for years.  Does that invalidate their salvation?

I don't know.  What I do know is that I always see adultery as being a more serious sin than promiscuity and fornication because it interferes with a marriage and family.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Billy Evmur on October 20, 2018, 08:40:50 am
Is it at all in line with Paul's gospel to be taught by a wide-eyed slip of a girl?

The answer is homosexuals can be saved and then backslide, they put themselves in great danger, they will incur chastisement even death.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on October 20, 2018, 10:19:50 pm
Is it at all in line with Paul's gospel to be taught by a wide-eyed slip of a girl?

The answer is homosexuals can be saved and then backslide, they put themselves in great danger, they will incur chastisement even death.



 I doubt very seriously that a homosexual who says they were saved and then backslide was saved at all. I personally do not believe in "Carnal Christians"

Jesus who knew you before you were born and knows whether you are true to your word with him or NOT.

If Homosexuals think they can fool Him then they have the same mentality as the World's army, at the coming Armageddon, thinking they can take on GOD (Jesus Christ) and win!

Blade

Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Billy Evmur on October 21, 2018, 06:36:52 am
We all backslide dear Blade, the first thing we do is backslide into our familiar sins, how well I remember my first experience of it...I mourned for days. Then began the fightback and eventual victory over sin [His victory of course]

But here we are speaking about wilful sin I think, throwing off all restraint like the wicked fellow at Corinth, but as wicked as he was Paul could not say that he was in danger of losing his salvation, but he was to be punished and his punishment did include being chucked out of the assembly. He did attain to forgiveness.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: guest13 on October 21, 2018, 11:11:53 am
We all backslide dear Blade, the first thing we do is backslide into our familiar sins, how well I remember my first experience of it...I mourned for days. Then began the fightback and eventual victory over sin [His victory of course]

But here we are speaking about wilful sin I think, throwing off all restraint like the wicked fellow at Corinth, but as wicked as he was Paul could not say that he was in danger of losing his salvation, but he was to be punished and his punishment did include being chucked out of the assembly. He did attain to forgiveness.

Doesn't it seem like one standard should hold for any sin?  Adultery, fornication, etc.    I mean it's either if you sin, you lose your salvation and were never saved to begin with OR ... even those who are saved still backslide and sin.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Billy Evmur on October 21, 2018, 12:56:02 pm
The question is totally one of whether we can abandon ourselves to any sinful lifestyle, you are right. The thief can no longer steal, the liar can no longer lie while professing Christ


If they did not repent of those things they were not saved, if they were saved but fall back to those things they are in a backslidden condition, they need to get out of that.

But if they then throw off all restraint and sin wilfully they are in a potentially awful place. The bible speaks about the assembly giving the wilful sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved.


But flagrant sin cannot be tolerated in the assembly.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on October 21, 2018, 08:32:08 pm
The question is totally one of whether we can abandon ourselves to any sinful lifestyle, you are right. The thief can no longer steal, the liar can no longer lie while professing Christ


If they did not repent of those things they were not saved, if they were saved but fall back to those things they are in a backslidden condition, they need to get out of that.

But if they then throw off all restraint and sin wilfully they are in a potentially awful place. The bible speaks about the assembly giving the wilful sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved.


But flagrant sin cannot be tolerated in the assembly.


Whoa wait a minute. all you got if they backslide is :"
they need to get out of that."

WHAT IF THEY DO NOT QUIT  their Backslide (sinning). Does Jesus simply continue to look the other way. How long do they have. How many times (if this applies).

And if they lose their Salvation: Does this make Jesus a Liar as He told us:

John 6:39..."And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. "

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on May 08, 2019, 12:29:03 pm
The question is totally one of whether we can abandon ourselves to any sinful lifestyle, you are right. The thief can no longer steal, the liar can no longer lie while professing Christ


If they did not repent of those things they were not saved, if they were saved but fall back to those things they are in a backslidden condition, they need to get out of that.

But if they then throw off all restraint and sin wilfully they are in a potentially awful place. The bible speaks about the assembly giving the wilful sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved.


But flagrant sin cannot be tolerated in the assembly.


Whoa wait a minute. all you got if they backslide is :"
they need to get out of that."

WHAT IF THEY DO NOT QUIT  their Backslide (sinning). Does Jesus simply continue to look the other way. How long do they have. How many times (if this applies).

And if they lose their Salvation: Does this make Jesus a Liar as He told us:

John 6:39..."And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. "

Blade

Good point Blade. Someone that continues is willful sin may not have been saved to begin with.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Grace_Accepted on June 26, 2019, 09:38:07 am
No one advocating sin, any sin, is in a saving relationship with God.  BUT there are plenty of us at war with ourselves, struggling with the flesh that are saved and covered by His grace.

If you advocate sin you don't understand sin.  If I stepped barefoot into dog poo, I would just shrug it off, ignore my condition and track the stuff in the house and all through it.

Sin is worse than dog poo ona a summer bare foot!
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on July 27, 2019, 03:37:41 pm
No one advocating sin, any sin, is in a saving relationship with God.  BUT there are plenty of us at war with ourselves, struggling with the flesh that are saved and covered by His grace.

If you advocate sin you don't understand sin.  If I stepped barefoot into dog poo, I would just shrug it off, ignore my condition and track the stuff in the house and all through it.

Sin is worse than dog poo ona a summer bare foot!
Good post
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 27, 2019, 08:36:51 pm
No one advocating sin, any sin, is in a saving relationship with God.  BUT there are plenty of us at war with ourselves, struggling with the flesh that are saved and covered by His grace.

If you advocate sin you don't understand sin.  If I stepped barefoot into dog poo, I would just shrug it off, ignore my condition and track the stuff in the house and all through it.

Sin is worse than dog poo ona a summer bare foot!
Good post

A gay lifestyle is a 24-7 sin.... there is no way, one can be saved and in that situation.  Those still in this SIN at their death will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on September 01, 2020, 12:06:20 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytPAHkNR5Tc&list=WL&index=4&t=0s
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on October 07, 2020, 11:41:23 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYRXop7aPA&list=WL&index=27&t=78s
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on October 28, 2020, 04:14:06 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYRXop7aPA&list=WL&index=27&t=78s
:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on October 31, 2020, 09:42:19 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYRXop7aPA&list=WL&index=27&t=78s
:(
>:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on October 31, 2020, 06:47:51 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYRXop7aPA&list=WL&index=27&t=78s
:(
>:(

not a true christian
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 03, 2020, 08:28:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYRXop7aPA&list=WL&index=27&t=78s
:(
>:(

not a true christian
Yep
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 04, 2020, 04:35:35 pm
 ::)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 04, 2020, 07:39:30 pm
::)

No since to have to study on it....the answer is NO!

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 06, 2020, 01:23:41 pm
::)

No since to have to study on it....the answer is NO!

Blade
Exactly
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 08, 2020, 03:14:15 pm
::)

No since to have to study on it....the answer is NO!

Blade
Exactly
;)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 09, 2020, 07:02:17 pm
::)

No since to have to study on it....the answer is NO!

Blade
Exactly
;)

:o
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 12, 2020, 09:47:04 am
::)

No since to have to study on it....the answer is NO!

Blade
Exactly
;)

:o
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on November 12, 2020, 11:28:14 am
My pov is sure to get me into trouble, but here it goes.

We cannot choose who we are attracted to, but we can choose what we do with that attraction.  For example, if we entertain lustful thoughts it is as if we commit adultery. 

I believe that homosexuality has a beautiful gift...let me explain...one of the most under talked about fruits of the Spirit is self-control and if there was ever any doubt, we all need to learn self-control over our sexual desires.  The homosexual that learns to exercise that self-control is yielding to the HS and has just received one of the greatest gifts God gives to His believers.  IOW's homosexuality is an opportunity to learn self-control just like poverty is an opportunity to learn to be content like no other lesson can teach us.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 15, 2020, 09:12:54 am
My pov is sure to get me into trouble, but here it goes.

We cannot choose who we are attracted to, but we can choose what we do with that attraction.  For example, if we entertain lustful thoughts it is as if we commit adultery. 

I believe that homosexuality has a beautiful gift...let me explain...one of the most under talked about fruits of the Spirit is self-control and if there was ever any doubt, we all need to learn self-control over our sexual desires.  The homosexual that learns to exercise that self-control is yielding to the HS and has just received one of the greatest gifts God gives to His believers.  IOW's homosexuality is an opportunity to learn self-control just like poverty is an opportunity to learn to be content like no other lesson can teach us.
I can agree somewhat. However, I don't expect the number of gays in control of their lusts and desires to be any more or less than straight people, which is not a high percentage. Sexual deviance is one of the most insidious behaviors to engage in.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 15, 2020, 08:25:40 pm
My pov is sure to get me into trouble, but here it goes.

We cannot choose who we are attracted to, but we can choose what we do with that attraction.  For example, if we entertain lustful thoughts it is as if we commit adultery. 

I believe that homosexuality has a beautiful gift...let me explain...one of the most under talked about fruits of the Spirit is self-control and if there was ever any doubt, we all need to learn self-control over our sexual desires.  The homosexual that learns to exercise that self-control is yielding to the HS and has just received one of the greatest gifts God gives to His believers.  IOW's homosexuality is an opportunity to learn self-control just like poverty is an opportunity to learn to be content like no other lesson can teach us.

have to think of this a bit.

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on November 16, 2020, 09:57:29 am
My pov is sure to get me into trouble, but here it goes.

We cannot choose who we are attracted to, but we can choose what we do with that attraction.  For example, if we entertain lustful thoughts it is as if we commit adultery. 

I believe that homosexuality has a beautiful gift...let me explain...one of the most under talked about fruits of the Spirit is self-control and if there was ever any doubt, we all need to learn self-control over our sexual desires.  The homosexual that learns to exercise that self-control is yielding to the HS and has just received one of the greatest gifts God gives to His believers.  IOW's homosexuality is an opportunity to learn self-control just like poverty is an opportunity to learn to be content like no other lesson can teach us.
I can agree somewhat. However, I don't expect the number of gays in control of their lusts and desires to be any more or less than straight people, which is not a high percentage. Sexual deviance is one of the most insidious behaviors to engage in.
the same can be said about poor people, just because they don't necessarily learn the lesson does NOT mean God didn't put it there for them to learn.   Look back at Gen. weeds are there to remind us to be righteous, just because most see weeds as something to get rid of, a curse to end, doesn't mean their purpose has changed.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 16, 2020, 07:51:15 pm
My pov is sure to get me into trouble, but here it goes.

We cannot choose who we are attracted to, but we can choose what we do with that attraction.  For example, if we entertain lustful thoughts it is as if we commit adultery. 

I believe that homosexuality has a beautiful gift...let me explain...one of the most under talked about fruits of the Spirit is self-control and if there was ever any doubt, we all need to learn self-control over our sexual desires.  The homosexual that learns to exercise that self-control is yielding to the HS and has just received one of the greatest gifts God gives to His believers.  IOW's homosexuality is an opportunity to learn self-control just like poverty is an opportunity to learn to be content like no other lesson can teach us.
I can agree somewhat. However, I don't expect the number of gays in control of their lusts and desires to be any more or less than straight people, which is not a high percentage. Sexual deviance is one of the most insidious behaviors to engage in.
the same can be said about poor people, just because they don't necessarily learn the lesson does NOT mean God didn't put it there for them to learn.   Look back at Gen. weeds are there to remind us to be righteous, just because most see weeds as something to get rid of, a curse to end, doesn't mean their purpose has changed.

If I am not mistaken, you are saying GOD put the homosexual tendencies in people????? If this is not what you are saying, please help.

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Chaplain Mark Schmidt on November 16, 2020, 07:52:40 pm
My simple answer is that they can live a righteous Christian life.   I chose not to judge them as I understand Jesus' teaching to put forth.  While I may or may not agree with lifestyle choices or arguments that it is a choice or a DNA issue or anything else, I am not the final arbitrator of how they have lived their life.  If they live there life in an upstanding, righteous and Christian life then why shouldn't they have the same considerations as anyone else?

My in-laws, well the **** far-right Christians of the group say I am going to hell for not taking a hard stance.  My question to them that they have failed to even try to answer is: "When did God and Jesus give you the right to judge your fellow man?  I do not remember reading it anywhere in the Bible, Can not seem to find your name anywhere in there?"

I do not condemn anyone for the way you judge those as that is between you and the Holy Father, but do not try to make me judge the same if I believe it goes against the teachings.

This is just my humble opinion and postion
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on November 17, 2020, 07:48:18 am
My pov is sure to get me into trouble, but here it goes.

We cannot choose who we are attracted to, but we can choose what we do with that attraction.  For example, if we entertain lustful thoughts it is as if we commit adultery. 

I believe that homosexuality has a beautiful gift...let me explain...one of the most under talked about fruits of the Spirit is self-control and if there was ever any doubt, we all need to learn self-control over our sexual desires.  The homosexual that learns to exercise that self-control is yielding to the HS and has just received one of the greatest gifts God gives to His believers.  IOW's homosexuality is an opportunity to learn self-control just like poverty is an opportunity to learn to be content like no other lesson can teach us.
I can agree somewhat. However, I don't expect the number of gays in control of their lusts and desires to be any more or less than straight people, which is not a high percentage. Sexual deviance is one of the most insidious behaviors to engage in.
the same can be said about poor people, just because they don't necessarily learn the lesson does NOT mean God didn't put it there for them to learn.   Look back at Gen. weeds are there to remind us to be righteous, just because most see weeds as something to get rid of, a curse to end, doesn't mean their purpose has changed.

If I am not mistaken, you are saying GOD put the homosexual tendencies in people????? If this is not what you are saying, please help.

Blade
I am saying that God is giving them a gift if they only use it...He KNITS us together in our mother's womb, you tell me which characteristics are left out of that knitting?
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Lori Bolinger on November 17, 2020, 07:50:48 am
My simple answer is that they can live a righteous Christian life.   I chose not to judge them as I understand Jesus' teaching to put forth.  While I may or may not agree with lifestyle choices or arguments that it is a choice or a DNA issue or anything else, I am not the final arbitrator of how they have lived their life.  If they live there life in an upstanding, righteous and Christian life then why shouldn't they have the same considerations as anyone else?

My in-laws, well the **** far-right Christians of the group say I am going to hell for not taking a hard stance.  My question to them that they have failed to even try to answer is: "When did God and Jesus give you the right to judge your fellow man?  I do not remember reading it anywhere in the Bible, Can not seem to find your name anywhere in there?"

I do not condemn anyone for the way you judge those as that is between you and the Holy Father, but do not try to make me judge the same if I believe it goes against the teachings.

This is just my humble opinion and postion
My only response to this is that scripture tells us that if we see a brother in sin to try to help restore him without joining in his sin...iow's there is a difference between judging and turning our backs on a brother that needs our help to overcome a sin.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 17, 2020, 04:52:07 pm
My simple answer is that they can live a righteous Christian life.   I chose not to judge them as I understand Jesus' teaching to put forth.  While I may or may not agree with lifestyle choices or arguments that it is a choice or a DNA issue or anything else, I am not the final arbitrator of how they have lived their life.  If they live there life in an upstanding, righteous and Christian life then why shouldn't they have the same considerations as anyone else?

My in-laws, well the **** far-right Christians of the group say I am going to hell for not taking a hard stance.  My question to them that they have failed to even try to answer is: "When did God and Jesus give you the right to judge your fellow man?  I do not remember reading it anywhere in the Bible, Can not seem to find your name anywhere in there?"

I do not condemn anyone for the way you judge those as that is between you and the Holy Father, but do not try to make me judge the same if I believe it goes against the teachings.

This is just my humble opinion and postion
My only response to this is that scripture tells us that if we see a brother in sin to try to help restore him without joining in his sin...iow's there is a difference between judging and turning our backs on a brother that needs our help to overcome a sin.
I see
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 19, 2020, 11:16:48 am
My simple answer is that they can live a righteous Christian life.   I chose not to judge them as I understand Jesus' teaching to put forth.  While I may or may not agree with lifestyle choices or arguments that it is a choice or a DNA issue or anything else, I am not the final arbitrator of how they have lived their life.  If they live there life in an upstanding, righteous and Christian life then why shouldn't they have the same considerations as anyone else?

My in-laws, well the **** far-right Christians of the group say I am going to hell for not taking a hard stance.  My question to them that they have failed to even try to answer is: "When did God and Jesus give you the right to judge your fellow man?  I do not remember reading it anywhere in the Bible, Can not seem to find your name anywhere in there?"

I do not condemn anyone for the way you judge those as that is between you and the Holy Father, but do not try to make me judge the same if I believe it goes against the teachings.

This is just my humble opinion and postion
My only response to this is that scripture tells us that if we see a brother in sin to try to help restore him without joining in his sin...iow's there is a difference between judging and turning our backs on a brother that needs our help to overcome a sin.
I see
:o
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 19, 2020, 07:55:45 pm
My simple answer is that they can live a righteous Christian life.   I chose not to judge them as I understand Jesus' teaching to put forth.  While I may or may not agree with lifestyle choices or arguments that it is a choice or a DNA issue or anything else, I am not the final arbitrator of how they have lived their life.  If they live there life in an upstanding, righteous and Christian life then why shouldn't they have the same considerations as anyone else?

My in-laws, well the **** far-right Christians of the group say I am going to hell for not taking a hard stance.  My question to them that they have failed to even try to answer is: "When did God and Jesus give you the right to judge your fellow man?  I do not remember reading it anywhere in the Bible, Can not seem to find your name anywhere in there?"

I do not condemn anyone for the way you judge those as that is between you and the Holy Father, but do not try to make me judge the same if I believe it goes against the teachings.

This is just my humble opinion and postion
My only response to this is that scripture tells us that if we see a brother in sin to try to help restore him without joining in his sin...iow's there is a difference between judging and turning our backs on a brother that needs our help to overcome a sin.
I see
:o

If they have a propensity for the homosexual lifestyle, yet they steer away from it and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I agree with you Mark. However, they cannot have both at the same time....Jesus does NOT say this.

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 20, 2020, 07:02:01 pm
My simple answer is that they can live a righteous Christian life.   I chose not to judge them as I understand Jesus' teaching to put forth.  While I may or may not agree with lifestyle choices or arguments that it is a choice or a DNA issue or anything else, I am not the final arbitrator of how they have lived their life.  If they live there life in an upstanding, righteous and Christian life then why shouldn't they have the same considerations as anyone else?

My in-laws, well the **** far-right Christians of the group say I am going to hell for not taking a hard stance.  My question to them that they have failed to even try to answer is: "When did God and Jesus give you the right to judge your fellow man?  I do not remember reading it anywhere in the Bible, Can not seem to find your name anywhere in there?"

I do not condemn anyone for the way you judge those as that is between you and the Holy Father, but do not try to make me judge the same if I believe it goes against the teachings.

This is just my humble opinion and postion
My only response to this is that scripture tells us that if we see a brother in sin to try to help restore him without joining in his sin...iow's there is a difference between judging and turning our backs on a brother that needs our help to overcome a sin.
I see
:o

If they have a propensity for the homosexual lifestyle, yet they steer away from it and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I agree with you Mark. However, they cannot have both at the same time....Jesus does NOT say this.

Blade
Yep
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 25, 2020, 08:55:47 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 25, 2020, 09:01:23 pm
;D

The US is under judgement of GOD three times. see Romans 1:24-25,26-27,28-32

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Ted T. on November 26, 2020, 11:31:49 am
ImCo:
The term Christian is meaningless sin this case as too broad. It refers to anyone who claims to believe in Christ as saviour and who attends a church service in nominal fashion.

On the other hand the sinful elect will be cured of their addiction to evil by being reborn whether in a church or not and the reprobate non-elect who can never be saved as condemned already will never be reborn even if they are Christian overachievers wth a perfect lifestyle.

Our work, our theologies nor our life style do not save us, only a true living faith in Christ as Saviour which brought us under the election promise of salvation.

But living a sinful lifestyle is a pretty good sign one is not yet reborn.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 27, 2020, 07:29:23 am
ImCo:
The term Christian is meaningless sin this case as too broad. It refers to anyone who claims to believe in Christ as saviour and who attends a church service in nominal fashion.

On the other hand the sinful elect will be cured of their addiction to evil by being reborn whether in a church or not and the reprobate non-elect who can never be saved as condemned already will never be reborn even if they are Christian overachievers wth a perfect lifestyle.

Our work, our theologies nor our life style do not save us, only a true living faith in Christ as Saviour which brought us under the election promise of salvation.

But living a sinful lifestyle is a pretty good sign one is not yet reborn.
Yep
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 28, 2020, 04:08:03 am
ImCo:
The term Christian is meaningless sin this case as too broad. It refers to anyone who claims to believe in Christ as saviour and who attends a church service in nominal fashion.

On the other hand the sinful elect will be cured of their addiction to evil by being reborn whether in a church or not and the reprobate non-elect who can never be saved as condemned already will never be reborn even if they are Christian overachievers wth a perfect lifestyle.

Our work, our theologies nor our life style do not save us, only a true living faith in Christ as Saviour which brought us under the election promise of salvation.

But living a sinful lifestyle is a pretty good sign one is not yet reborn.
Yep
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on November 29, 2020, 06:14:49 pm
ImCo:
The term Christian is meaningless sin this case as too broad. It refers to anyone who claims to believe in Christ as saviour and who attends a church service in nominal fashion.


But you failed to define the sin that is too broad? The title is a simple question that was answered by both God (the father) and Jesus. Homosexuality is an abomination that even in Romans 1, Jesus has given over to those who practice this lifestyle, "over unto themselves" three times.

This is the sin....even if they are cardboard Christians it still is a sin that will be reckoned with in the end. Either they have to repent by turning away from this sin and toward GOD or they don't; there is no in-between!

On the other hand the sinful elect will be cured of their addiction to evil by being reborn whether in a church or not and the reprobate non-elect who can never be saved as condemned already will never be reborn even if they are Christian overachievers with a perfect lifestyle.

There is no perfect lifestyle. Those that have not chosen Jesus as their savior by free choice or for what ever reason there was, Jesus has chosen not to elect them.


Our work, our theologies nor our life style do not save us, only a true living faith in Christ as Saviour which brought us under the election promise of salvation.

But living a sinful lifestyle is a pretty good sign one is not yet reborn.
Yep

This I can agree yet I would like to highlight one of YOUR words TED...
"pretty good sign one is not yet reborn."

Until all the tribulation saints have been taken to heaven, the millennium is fixing to begin and there are no more believers on earth, there is hope for all who want to change.

Blade




;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 02, 2020, 08:59:56 pm
 ;)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 03, 2020, 06:22:12 pm
;)
:o
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 05, 2020, 09:30:46 am
;)
:o
>:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 06, 2020, 02:43:40 pm
;)
:o
>:(
Ask Billy - just kiddin'  :o
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 08, 2020, 06:25:55 am
;)
:o
>:(
Ask Billy - just kiddin'  :o
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 10, 2020, 06:57:27 am
 :D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 12, 2020, 07:00:16 am
:D
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 14, 2020, 09:07:25 am
:D
;D
Ask Billy  :o
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 16, 2020, 12:49:16 pm
:D
;D
Ask Billy  :o
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 17, 2020, 07:20:40 am
Billy knows
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 18, 2020, 08:49:33 am
Billy knows
Light in the loafers? :D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 19, 2020, 07:27:45 am
Billy knows
Light in the loafers? :D
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 21, 2020, 07:44:11 am
Billy knows
Light in the loafers? :D
;D
:o
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 22, 2020, 04:39:59 am
Billy knows
Light in the loafers? :D
;D
:o
;)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 22, 2020, 05:52:51 am
 ;)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 23, 2020, 07:36:58 pm
;)
:-[
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 25, 2020, 08:39:59 am
;)
:-[
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 26, 2020, 10:07:05 am
;)
:-[
;D
Billy knows
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 27, 2020, 09:24:13 pm
;)
:-[
;D
Billy knows
:o ::)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 28, 2020, 05:45:48 am
Billy
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on December 28, 2020, 09:31:09 pm
Billy

The USA has been under judgement of Romans 1 since around the 1970-80's. With Biden in office ??, the third part (having started around 2012-2015) will show just bad the "reprobate mind" really is.

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 29, 2020, 07:02:18 am
Billy

The USA has been under judgement of Romans 1 since around the 1970-80's. With Biden in office ??, the third part (having started around 2012-2015) will show just bad the "reprobate mind" really is.

Blade
Yes
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 30, 2020, 07:48:58 am
Billy

The USA has been under judgement of Romans 1 since around the 1970-80's. With Biden in office ??, the third part (having started around 2012-2015) will show just bad the "reprobate mind" really is.

Blade
Yes
:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on December 31, 2020, 11:51:01 pm
Billy

The USA has been under judgement of Romans 1 since around the 1970-80's. With Biden in office ??, the third part (having started around 2012-2015) will show just bad the "reprobate mind" really is.

Blade
Yes
:(
>:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 02, 2021, 07:39:50 am
Billy

The USA has been under judgement of Romans 1 since around the 1970-80's. With Biden in office ??, the third part (having started around 2012-2015) will show just bad the "reprobate mind" really is.

Blade
Yes
:(
>:(
:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 03, 2021, 08:45:22 am
 ;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 06, 2021, 08:53:40 am
;D
:D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 09, 2021, 06:51:49 am
;D
:D
>:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 11, 2021, 09:56:01 pm
;D
:D
>:(
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 13, 2021, 10:32:58 am
;D
:D
>:(
;D
:D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 14, 2021, 09:37:40 am
 ;)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 15, 2021, 09:37:12 pm
;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddi2TBnzdPo


Trump Silent Running Video:
https://rumble.com/vb5dzb-trump-silent-running-by-justin-bellucci.html



Silent Running


Take the children and yourself
And hide out in the cellar
By now the fighting will be close at hand


Don't believe the church and state
And everything they tell you
Believe in me, I'm with the high command


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


There's a gun and ammunition
Just inside the doorway
Use it only in emergency


Better you should pray to God
The Father and the Spirit
Will guide you and protect from up here


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel


Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me running (can you hear me calling you?)
(Can you hear me) hear me calling you?
(Can you hear me running) hear me running babe?
(Can you hear me running) hear me running?
Calling you, calling you




Source: Musixmatch
Songwriters: Michael Rutherford / Baxter Robertson
Silent Running lyrics © Michael Rutherford Publishing Ltd., R And Ba Music Ltd
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 17, 2021, 04:56:59 pm
;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddi2TBnzdPo


Trump Silent Running Video:
https://rumble.com/vb5dzb-trump-silent-running-by-justin-bellucci.html



Silent Running


Take the children and yourself
And hide out in the cellar
By now the fighting will be close at hand


Don't believe the church and state
And everything they tell you
Believe in me, I'm with the high command


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


There's a gun and ammunition
Just inside the doorway
Use it only in emergency


Better you should pray to God
The Father and the Spirit
Will guide you and protect from up here


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel


Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me running (can you hear me calling you?)
(Can you hear me) hear me calling you?
(Can you hear me running) hear me running babe?
(Can you hear me running) hear me running?
Calling you, calling you




Source: Musixmatch
Songwriters: Michael Rutherford / Baxter Robertson
Silent Running lyrics © Michael Rutherford Publishing Ltd., R And Ba Music Ltd

:(
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 19, 2021, 06:49:49 pm
 ;)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 21, 2021, 04:37:19 am
;)
:D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on January 25, 2021, 05:00:10 pm
;)
:D
8)
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on March 01, 2021, 08:54:45 pm
;)
:D
8)
;D
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on March 27, 2021, 09:39:29 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfu70qKNqW8
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on March 29, 2021, 07:46:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfu70qKNqW8

only one way...



Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on July 13, 2021, 11:23:56 am
(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/124236.jpg?w=940)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/july-august/conversion-therapy-bans-ex-gay-global-lgbt-laws.html








‘Pray Away the Gay’ Has Gone Away. Why Are Governments Trying to Stop It?







Nations around the globe are pushing bans on conversion therapy, some without defining what it is.


When the Evangelical Alliance of the United Kingdom wrote Prime Minister Boris Johnson about the country’s push to ban conversion therapy, its first request was that lawmakers define the term.

Conversion therapy has become a vague catchall that can refer to abusive and even violent efforts to change someone’s sexual orientation but also can be construed to mean any religious act that doesn’t affirm LGBT identities. In addition to proposals in the UK and Canada, bans have been enacted in Malta, Germany, Spain, Ecuador, Brazil, Taiwan, Australia, and 20 US states—some carefully defining conversion therapy, some not.

The term often evokes the most extreme attempts to eliminate unwanted same-sex attraction: shock therapy, exorcisms, forced heterosexual marriages, and even ****. More commonly, conversion therapy ministries have promised that people could overcome their desires through prayer, discipleship, and counseling.

In the past decade, however, even that kind of conversion therapy has mostly disappeared. Exodus International, evangelicalism’s flagship ex-gay ministry, shut down in 2013 after former leader Alan Chambers said it had caused pain and harm to too many people and that more than 99 percent of those who’d sought help there hadn’t actually experienced an orientation change. No major organization has emerged to take its place, and conversion therapy has fallen out of practice.

Psychologist Mark Yarhouse, director of Wheaton College’s Sexual and Gender Identity Institute, said that while some smaller organizations persist in prayer ministries aimed at changing people’s sexual orientation, he’s not aware of any major groups, mainstream evangelical ministries, or professional Christian counselors who practice any version of conversion therapy.

And yet, as the practice itself has all but disappeared, public campaigns to ban it are growing around the world. Some Christians worry that new regulations with poor definitions will take aim at what the UK Evangelical Alliance calls “everyday aspects” of church life.

A new law in Victoria, Australia, for example, will ban “religious practices, including but not limited to a prayer-based practice” aimed at “changing or suppressing the sexual orientation.” The government also says conversion therapy is illegal “with or without the person’s consent.” It is not yet clear how the law, which goes into effect in February 2022, will be applied, but it could criminalize praying for people who ask for prayer.

Australian pastor and writer Stephen McAlpine says the law is intended to challenge Christian teachings on sexuality.

“They’re looking for churches to self-censor,” he said. “It’s not like there’s churches doing lots of conversion therapy. It’s prayer groups where someone comes to you and says, ‘I’ve got unwanted same-sex desires. Could you pray for me?’ ”

McAlpine worries that Victoria’s new law will prompt pastors to say no. “Churches are going to actually pastor people less,” he said.

While ministries including Exodus International and Focus on the Family used to preach that homosexual desire should be eliminated, most evangelical churches, pastors, and mental health professionals today emphasize chastity amid desires that might last a lifetime. “Conversion” is no longer the goal—faithfulness is.

“There’s a greater proportion [of Christians] today that see it as more of an enduring reality,” Yarhouse said. “The person may experience same-sex sexuality, but now it’s, ‘How do I live with it?’ ”

Even the Nashville Statement, a 14-point manifesto by the complementarian Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, maintains that homosexual desire may never change. “We affirm that people who experience sexual attraction for the same sex may live a rich and fruitful life pleasing to God through faith in Jesus Christ, as they, like all Christians, walk in purity of life,” it reads.

Licensed counselor Jen Simmons says she has counseled clients and walked alongside friends who are same-sex attracted but have chosen celibacy or to marry someone of the opposite sex. She doesn’t try to change their orientation, but helps them develop skills to cope with unwanted same-sex attraction.

Simmons says therapy that promises to change a person’s sexual orientation is unethical, harmful, and simply impossible.

“Just like if someone has a genetic and biological propensity to anxiety, and they came in saying, ‘I want you to make my anxiety go away,’ ” she said. “I could never promise that.”

Still, Simmons is concerned about conversion therapy bans, since some of them, such as Australia’s, could target her work and prohibit “even just introducing a biblical ethic or talking about the biblical view of marriage,” she said.

Jayne Ozanne, founder of the Ozanne Foundation and the Global Interfaith Commission on LGBTQ+ Lives, which advocates for a national conversion therapy ban in the UK, said such a law is necessary to curb self-harm and suicide among those who identify as LGBT. A 2019 government survey found that only 2 percent of LGBT people in the UK had undergone conversion therapy, but she believes it still happens widely.

Ozanne, a lesbian evangelical, says she was repeatedly told while growing up in church that God would change her orientation if she prayed hard enough. When it didn’t happen, she not only felt shamed, but it shook her faith.

She pushes back on concerns that conversion therapy bans would muzzle therapists, but she has confirmed some evangelicals’ fears: She believes the bans need to focus on what’s going on inside churches. She says that prayer ministry teams “aren’t as regulated as we’d like to think they are” and untrained professionals, like pastors or lay ministers, shouldn’t be talking to people about things like sexual orientation. Ozanne hopes the conversion therapy ban in Victoria, Australia, will be used as a model in the rest of the world.


(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/124248.jpg?h=1173&w=300)


In the US, where there are lots of protections for speech, federal courts have struck down bans in two Florida cities on First Amendment grounds. The bans that have withstood challenges have been more narrowly focused: In Virginia and other jurisdictions, the therapy is banned only for minors.

Most bans in the US also explicitly exempt churches and pastors, though they can still threaten Christian professionals, according to Matt Sharp, an attorney with Alliance Defending Freedom.

At the same time, licenced counselors are rarely trying to change orientation. Simmons said that when issues of sexuality come up, she is more likely to appeal to the science of trauma and attachment than she is to cite Scripture.

“We can rely on what’s true,” she said. “We can rely on a lot that’s being discovered in science...all truth is God’s truth.”

Maria Baer is a contributing writer for CT and is based in Columbus, Ohio.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 13, 2021, 07:33:23 pm
(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/124236.jpg?w=940)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/july-august/conversion-therapy-bans-ex-gay-global-lgbt-laws.html








‘Pray Away the Gay’ Has Gone Away. Why Are Governments Trying to Stop It?







Nations around the globe are pushing bans on conversion therapy, some without defining what it is.


When the Evangelical Alliance of the United Kingdom wrote Prime Minister Boris Johnson about the country’s push to ban conversion therapy, its first request was that lawmakers define the term.

Conversion therapy has become a vague catchall that can refer to abusive and even violent efforts to change someone’s sexual orientation but also can be construed to mean any religious act that doesn’t affirm LGBT identities. In addition to proposals in the UK and Canada, bans have been enacted in Malta, Germany, Spain, Ecuador, Brazil, Taiwan, Australia, and 20 US states—some carefully defining conversion therapy, some not.

The term often evokes the most extreme attempts to eliminate unwanted same-sex attraction: shock therapy, exorcisms, forced heterosexual marriages, and even ****. More commonly, conversion therapy ministries have promised that people could overcome their desires through prayer, discipleship, and counseling.

In the past decade, however, even that kind of conversion therapy has mostly disappeared. Exodus International, evangelicalism’s flagship ex-gay ministry, shut down in 2013 after former leader Alan Chambers said it had caused pain and harm to too many people and that more than 99 percent of those who’d sought help there hadn’t actually experienced an orientation change. No major organization has emerged to take its place, and conversion therapy has fallen out of practice.

Psychologist Mark Yarhouse, director of Wheaton College’s Sexual and Gender Identity Institute, said that while some smaller organizations persist in prayer ministries aimed at changing people’s sexual orientation, he’s not aware of any major groups, mainstream evangelical ministries, or professional Christian counselors who practice any version of conversion therapy.

And yet, as the practice itself has all but disappeared, public campaigns to ban it are growing around the world. Some Christians worry that new regulations with poor definitions will take aim at what the UK Evangelical Alliance calls “everyday aspects” of church life.

A new law in Victoria, Australia, for example, will ban “religious practices, including but not limited to a prayer-based practice” aimed at “changing or suppressing the sexual orientation.” The government also says conversion therapy is illegal “with or without the person’s consent.” It is not yet clear how the law, which goes into effect in February 2022, will be applied, but it could criminalize praying for people who ask for prayer.

Australian pastor and writer Stephen McAlpine says the law is intended to challenge Christian teachings on sexuality.

“They’re looking for churches to self-censor,” he said. “It’s not like there’s churches doing lots of conversion therapy. It’s prayer groups where someone comes to you and says, ‘I’ve got unwanted same-sex desires. Could you pray for me?’ ”

McAlpine worries that Victoria’s new law will prompt pastors to say no. “Churches are going to actually pastor people less,” he said.

While ministries including Exodus International and Focus on the Family used to preach that homosexual desire should be eliminated, most evangelical churches, pastors, and mental health professionals today emphasize chastity amid desires that might last a lifetime. “Conversion” is no longer the goal—faithfulness is.

“There’s a greater proportion [of Christians] today that see it as more of an enduring reality,” Yarhouse said. “The person may experience same-sex sexuality, but now it’s, ‘How do I live with it?’ ”

Even the Nashville Statement, a 14-point manifesto by the complementarian Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, maintains that homosexual desire may never change. “We affirm that people who experience sexual attraction for the same sex may live a rich and fruitful life pleasing to God through faith in Jesus Christ, as they, like all Christians, walk in purity of life,” it reads.

Licensed counselor Jen Simmons says she has counseled clients and walked alongside friends who are same-sex attracted but have chosen celibacy or to marry someone of the opposite sex. She doesn’t try to change their orientation, but helps them develop skills to cope with unwanted same-sex attraction.

Simmons says therapy that promises to change a person’s sexual orientation is unethical, harmful, and simply impossible.

“Just like if someone has a genetic and biological propensity to anxiety, and they came in saying, ‘I want you to make my anxiety go away,’ ” she said. “I could never promise that.”

Still, Simmons is concerned about conversion therapy bans, since some of them, such as Australia’s, could target her work and prohibit “even just introducing a biblical ethic or talking about the biblical view of marriage,” she said.

Jayne Ozanne, founder of the Ozanne Foundation and the Global Interfaith Commission on LGBTQ+ Lives, which advocates for a national conversion therapy ban in the UK, said such a law is necessary to curb self-harm and suicide among those who identify as LGBT. A 2019 government survey found that only 2 percent of LGBT people in the UK had undergone conversion therapy, but she believes it still happens widely.

Ozanne, a lesbian evangelical, says she was repeatedly told while growing up in church that God would change her orientation if she prayed hard enough. When it didn’t happen, she not only felt shamed, but it shook her faith.

She pushes back on concerns that conversion therapy bans would muzzle therapists, but she has confirmed some evangelicals’ fears: She believes the bans need to focus on what’s going on inside churches. She says that prayer ministry teams “aren’t as regulated as we’d like to think they are” and untrained professionals, like pastors or lay ministers, shouldn’t be talking to people about things like sexual orientation. Ozanne hopes the conversion therapy ban in Victoria, Australia, will be used as a model in the rest of the world.


(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/124248.jpg?h=1173&w=300)


In the US, where there are lots of protections for speech, federal courts have struck down bans in two Florida cities on First Amendment grounds. The bans that have withstood challenges have been more narrowly focused: In Virginia and other jurisdictions, the therapy is banned only for minors.

Most bans in the US also explicitly exempt churches and pastors, though they can still threaten Christian professionals, according to Matt Sharp, an attorney with Alliance Defending Freedom.

At the same time, licenced counselors are rarely trying to change orientation. Simmons said that when issues of sexuality come up, she is more likely to appeal to the science of trauma and attachment than she is to cite Scripture.

“We can rely on what’s true,” she said. “We can rely on a lot that’s being discovered in science...all truth is God’s truth.”

Maria Baer is a contributing writer for CT and is based in Columbus, Ohio.


For churches that submit to the ban and succumb to the will of the government are guilty of "Falling Away" from God's Word.

Blade
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on October 13, 2021, 07:31:10 pm
(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/125606.jpg?w=940)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/october/lgbt-homosexual-identity-what-comes-after-ex-gay-movement.html








What Comes After the Ex-Gay Movement? The Same Thing That Came Before.






Old-school evangelical leaders once knew the value of “care” over “cure.”


“You know, Mike, I used to be gay,” I said.

Mike stopped moving his paintbrush as the words fell clumsily from my mouth. He was painting the St. Louis apartment I called home in the summer of 1997 as I began working toward my PhD in historical theology.

He’d asked me about my schooling, and we got to talking about faith. Mike had explained to me how he felt he could never go to church because he was gay.

“I know they say that’s not supposed to happen,” I went on, after dropping the bombshell. “But that’s my story.” Mike stared at me with interest as he set the paint can down, gently balancing his brush on its edge.

Looking back on this encounter, I can see that it had all the trappings of what became known as the ex-gay movement, of which I was once an eager proponent. Most notable is my use of the ex-gay script: “I used to be gay.” The phrase implied that I wasn’t gay anymore. I had a testimony, a story to tell about leaving homosexuality behind.

To be clear, my sexual attractions at that moment were drawn as exclusively to other men as ever. I was still at the top of the Kinsey scale that researchers since the 1940s have used to classify sexual orientation. What made me ex-gay was that I used the ex-gay script. I was trying to convince myself that I was a straight man with a disease—a curable one—called homosexuality. A condition that was being healed.

My terminological maneuver was an integral component of conversion therapy. Alan Medinger, the first executive director of Exodus International, described it as “a change in self-perception in which the individual no longer identifies him- or herself as homosexual.” It was all about identity. The testimony made the man. And, within my ex-gay framework, I wasn’t lying; I was claiming my new reality.

I was an ex-gay.

The emergence of Exodus International in 1976 had set evangelicals on a hopeful path toward curing homosexuality. Founder Frank Worthen explained, “When we started Exodus, the premise was that God could change you from gay to straight.” What followed was a decades-long experiment on hundreds of thousands of human test subjects. The movement collapsed after Exodus president Alan Chambers’s 2012 statement that more than 99 percent of Exodus clients had not experienced a change in their sexual orientation.

Although the paradigm of cure failed, it still walks undead among us, as some within major denominations try to institutionalize its approach. Recent debates among conservative Anglicans and Presbyterians over whether someone can claim a “gay identity” are only the latest round of similar disputes that have echoed in church corridors for years. After all, renouncing a homosexual self-perception was an essential first step in conversion therapy.

One effect of this approach was that it mandated that non-straight believers hide behind a mask, pretending to be anything but gay. It was part of the reparative process.

But this theological innovation was a relatively recent development. Before there was an ex-gay paradigm of cure, there was an older orthodoxy that included a Christian paradigm of caring for believers who aren’t straight.

I’ve wondered whether Henri Nouwen had his own homosexuality in mind when he wrote of the difference between care and cure. In the biography Wounded Prophet, Michael Ford documents how Nouwen discussed his experience as a celibate gay man with his close circle of friends. Nouwen had tried psychological and religious methods of orientation change, but to no avail. He knew that out of obedience to God, he couldn’t let himself engage in sexual relationships. But his path was filled with loneliness and unfulfilled longings and many tears.

In Bread for the Journey, he wrote, “Care is being with, crying out with, suffering with, feeling with. Care is compassion. It is claiming the truth that the other person is my brother or sister, human, mortal, vulnerable, like I am.”

“Often we are not able to cure,” he insisted, “but we are always able to care.”

Evangelical leaders, including John Stott, helped lay a foundation for a pastoral paradigm of care. Stott—the theologian and writer labeled the “Protestant Pope” by the BBC—argued that sexual orientation remains a part of one’s constitution. As Stott wrote in Issues Facing Christians Today back in 1982, “In every discussion about homosexuality we must be rigorous in differentiating between this ‘being’ and ‘doing,’ that is, between a person’s identity and activity, sexual preference and sexual practice, constitution and conduct.”

For Stott, a homosexual orientation was part of the believer’s identity—a fallen part, but one that the gospel doesn’t erase so much as it humbles.

This posture runs even further back than Stott. C. S. Lewis spoke in a 1954 letter to Sheldon Vanauken of a “pious male homosexual” with no apparent contradiction. Lewis’s lifelong best friend Arthur Greeves was gay. Lewis called him his “first friend” and made it clear to him that his sexual orientation never would be an issue in their friendship. They vacationed together. The compilation of letters Lewis sent to Greeves, collected under the title They Stand Together, reaches 592 pages.

In the United States, as the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York announced the birth of the gay rights movement, orthodox Protestants were already asking what positive vision Scripture gives for people who are gay. The 1970 pseudonymous InterVarsity Press book The Returns of Love: Letters of a Christian Homosexual mapped out a path of care and was promoted by Stott. The book’s celibate gay Anglican author explained that he was still a virgin at the time he wrote it.

Evangelicalism’s leaders knew there was a history of abuse with which to reckon. In a 1968 letter to a European pastor, Francis Schaeffer lamented the church’s complicity in marginalizing gay people. The pastor had seen no fewer than six gay people commit suicide, and he sought Schaeffer’s counsel. “The homophile tends to be pushed out of human life (and especially orthodox church life) even if he does not practice homosexuality,” lamented Schaeffer. “This, I believe, is both cruel and wrong.” Indeed, Schaeffer’s ministry became a magnet for gay people wrestling with Christianity.

Such leaders saved their disgust for abusive religious leaders. When Jerry Falwell Sr. brought up the challenge of gay people with Schaeffer in private, Schaeffer commented that the issue was complicated. As Schaeffer’s son, Frank, recounted in an interview with NPR and also in his book Crazy for God, Falwell then shot back a rejoinder: “If I had a dog that did what they do, I’d shoot it.” There was no humor in Falwell’s voice.

Afterward, Francis Schaeffer said to his son, “That man is really disgusting.”

“Sexual sins are not the only sins,” Stott wrote in Issues, “nor even necessarily the most sinful; pride and hypocrisy are surely worse.”

In 1980, Stott convened a gathering of Anglican evangelicals to map out a pastoral approach to homosexuality. They led with public repentance for their own sins against gay people. In a statement, these leaders declared, “We repent of the crippling ‘homophobia’ … which has coloured the attitudes toward homosexual people of all too many of us, and call our fellow Christians to similar repentance.”

It was a staggering confession at a time when popular opinion was still biased strongly against gay people. This was not the 21st century, when many Christian leaders repent in order to look relevant and inclusive in a culture that celebrates all things fabulous. Stott and these evangelical leaders must have been truly grieved for the ways they had injured their neighbors and siblings in Christ. The statement called specifically for qualified nonpracticing gay people to be received as candidates for ordination to ministry.

Five years earlier, many were shocked by Billy Graham’s similar comments in a news conference, some of which were reported in 1975 in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Graham had been asked whether he would support the ordination of gay men to the Christian ministry. Graham had replied that they “should be considered on individual merit” based on certain qualifications. Specifically, the article mentioned “turning away from their sins, receiving Christ, offering themselves to Christ and the ministry after repentance, and obtaining the proper training for the job.”

The gospel of Jesus Christ offers a positive vision for gay people. “In homosexuality,” Lewis explained to Vanauken, “as in every other tribulation, [the works of God] can be made manifest.” He continued: “Every disability conceals a vocation, if only we can find it, which will ‘turn the necessity to glorious gain.’ ”

Lewis asked, “What should the positive life of the homosexual be?” That’s the question any gay person who comes to faith in Jesus will ask.

Too often the answer we hear is simply “No.”

No sex. No dating. No relationships. Often, no leadership roles.

That leaves people like me hearing that we have, as Eve Tushnet explained in a 2012 piece in The American Conservative, a “vocation of No.”

What is a calling of “Yes”? What is the positive Christian vision the gospel gives for gay people?

When I look at the lives and ministries of Lewis, Schaeffer, Graham, and Stott, what stands out most clearly is that they bring a vision of Jesus: Jesus, in his saving power. Jesus, who washes us and makes us clean. Jesus, who brings us into God’s family. Jesus, who covers shame and forgives sin. Jesus, who calls us by name. Jesus, who sees us all the way down and still wants to be in relationship with us. Jesus, who suffers with and for us. Jesus, who challenges us to live for his kingdom. Jesus, who gives new life with all its joy. Jesus, who is that treasure in a field for which we sold everything. Jesus, who is that treasure that can never be taken from us.

This is Jesus, whose inbreaking kingdom sweeps us up into something he is doing in the cosmos, something larger than ourselves. In Christ, we find ourselves in a larger narrative.

This is not Jesus as a means to an end of heterosexual functioning and comfortable family life. This is God himself as the end for which we were made. With this real God, the locus of hope is found not in this life with heterosexuality, but in the coming age, when we shall stand before our Savior.

Without that relationship with a Savior, there is no point in speaking of a biblical sexual ethic, either to straight or gay people. No gay people are going to embrace such an ethic unless they fall in love with Jesus. A heart smitten by grace is not only willing but also eager to follow the one who died for us.

Schaeffer, Stott, and Graham all stated on occasion their shared belief that some people are born gay. All of these Christian leaders also held to the historical understanding of the biblical sexual ethic. This certainly meant committing to a life in line with God’s creational pattern—his design. Not one of them supported sexual unions for believers outside of a monogamous marriage between two people of different sexes. But they approached gay people from a posture of humility.

Their vision did not flatten people into our unwanted sexual urges. Instead, they recognized that a same-sex-oriented believer’s biggest struggle may be not with sexual sin but with the ability to give and receive love. So they emphasized the need for the community of the church; for deep, long-term friendships; for brotherhood, to be known even in celibacy.

Stott, himself celibate, explained: “At the heart of the homosexual condition is a deep and natural hunger for mutual love, a search for identity and a longing for completeness. If gay people cannot find these things in the local ‘church family,’ we have no business to go on using that expression.”

Lewis, Schaeffer, Graham, and Stott also viewed the homosexual condition as an unchosen orientation with no reliable expectation of a change in this life. They showed great concern for the emotional and relational needs of gay people. Schaeffer insisted in his 1968 letter that the church needed to be the church and help “the individual in every way possible.”

In his NPR interview, Frank Schaeffer described his father’s Swiss ministry, L’Abri, as a place “where homosexuals—both lesbians and gay men—are welcomed.” He added: “No one’s telling them they’ve got to change or that they’re horrible people. And they go away, you know, having found my father wonderfully compassionate and Christlike to them.”

Schaeffer foresaw significant cultural changes when, in 1978, an Orthodox Presbyterian Church congregation in San Francisco found itself sued for releasing a gay employee who had violated the church’s code of conduct. In The Great Evangelical Disaster, Schaeffer said it would be silly for other churches to think they might not face the same challenge.

Still, Schaeffer and Graham didn’t recommend us-verses-them approaches. Just weeks before the 1964 presidential election, a gay sex scandal rocked the nation. President Lyndon Johnson’s top adviser, Walter Jenkins, was arrested a second time for having gay sex in a YMCA restroom. Graham called the White House to intercede for Jenkins.

In the recorded phone call, Graham charged Johnson to show compassion to Jenkins.

Asked about homosexuality at a 1997 San Francisco crusade, Graham remarked to reporters, “There are other sins. Why do we jump on that sin as though it’s the greatest sin?” He added, “I have so many gay friends, and we remain friends.” Speaking to a crowd of 10,000 that night in the Cow Palace, Graham declared, “Whatever your background, whatever your sexual orientation, we welcome you tonight.”

As Stott emphasized so passionately in Issues, the gay person who follows Jesus must live by faith, hope, and love: Faith in both God’s grace and in his standards. Hope to look beyond this present life of struggle to our future glory. But the love by which we must live, he explained, is the love we must receive from Christ’s spiritual family, the church. We must depend upon love from the very churches that have historically failed to give it to people like us.

Church historian Richard Lovelace’s 1978 book Homosexuality and the Church garnered hearty endorsements from evangelical luminaries Ken Kantzer (a former CT editor), Elisabeth Elliot, Chuck Colson, Harold Ockenga, and Carl F. H. Henry. The book might seem radical in today’s climate, but in the 1970s it represented a transatlantic neoevangelical vision. In contrast to homophobia on the right and sexual compromise on the left, Lovelace laid out the gospel challenge:

There is another approach to homosexuality which would be healthier both for the church and for gay believers, and which could be a very significant witness to the world. This approach requires a double repentance, a repentance both for the church and for its gay membership. First, it would require professing Christians who are gay to have the courage both to avow [acknowledge] their orientation openly and to obey the Bible’s clear injunction to turn away from the active homosexual life-style. … Second, it would require the church to accept, honor, and nurture nonpracticing gay believers in its membership, and ordain these to positions of leadership for ministry.

The church’s sponsorship of openly avowed but repentant homosexuals in leadership positions would be a profound witness to the world concerning the power of the Gospel to free the church from homophobia and the homosexual from guilt and bondage.

Only the gospel can open up the humility for such a dual repentance. Yet this was the Christian vision of Lovelace and Henry, Ockenga and Elliot, Kantzer and Colson, Lewis and Graham, Schaeffer and Stott, and a young gay evangelical Anglican who felt too afraid to use his own name, even though he was still a virgin.

Christian fathers and mothers like these had it right. Tragically, I write this as a lament for a road not traveled on this side of the Atlantic.

Already by the late 1970s, a hard shift had begun. As ex-gay ministries in North America multiplied with their expectation of orientation change, they shifted the locus of hope to this life. As the AIDS crisis devastated gay communities in the 1980s, evangelicals embraced the promise of heterosexuality. The secular reparative therapists added a semblance of clinical respectability. The new path to cure pushed out the older path to care.

And then the conservative side in a culture war discovered that we ex-gays were useful. We were proof that gay people could choose to become straight if they really wanted to. And if we could become straight, then there really wasn’t so much need for the church to repent of its homophobia. It just required people like me to maintain the illusion that we had changed.

In the aftermath of that lost culture war that radically transformed the sexual mores of the West, there is much for Christians to grieve. Transactional relationships. Disposable marriages. Vastly changed assumptions about sexuality and gender.

But the conservative church’s hesitancy to repent has not dissipated. As I watch evangelical churches and denominations fumble their way through discussions of sexual orientation and identity, often enforcing the language and categories of a failed ex-gay movement, we’re missing the real battle: The surrounding culture has convinced the world that Christians hate gay people.

Our calling is to prove them wrong.

The world is watching. Our children and grandchildren are watching. They are already second-guessing their faith because they hear all around them that Christians hate gay people, and they can’t point to anyone in their congregation who is gay, is faithful, and is loved and accepted as such. Maybe they can point to someone who uses the language of same-sex attraction. But even that is rare. It’s still not safe to do so.

I am not saying we are at risk of losing Christians who are attracted to members of the same sex; that’s a given.

I am saying we are at risk of losing the next generation.

For those who are listening, an older generation of Christians is still willing and able to help us understand.






Greg Johnson is lead pastor of Memorial Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and author of Still Time to Care: What We Can Learn from the Church’s Failed Attempt to Cure Homosexuality.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on November 19, 2021, 09:45:56 pm
(https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/126431.jpg?h=393&w=700)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/november/christian-florist-settles-legal-battle-with-same-sex-couple.html







Christian Florist Settles Legal Battle With Same-Sex Couple








After eight years, the 77-year-old Washington state grandmother is retiring from her business and her religious liberty fight.


A florist in Washington state who was in an eight-year legal battle that reached the US Supreme Court will retire after settling with the same-sex couple whose wedding job she refused.

Barronelle Stutzman of Richland, Washington, announced the settlement Thursday, saying she has paid $5,000 to Robert Ingersoll, The Tri-City Herald reported.

She said Jesus “walked with me every step of the way” through her legal journey and also wished Ingersoll, who had been her customer at Arlene’s Flowers for almost a decade, “the very best.”

Ingersoll and his husband, Curt Freed, plan to donate the settlement payment to a local PFLAG chapter, and personally match the $5,000.

The agreement allows Stutzman to “preserve her conscience” by not forcing her to act against her Southern Baptist religious beliefs, according to a news release from her attorneys with Alliance Defending Freedom. They reached the settlement with the American Civil Liberties Union.

It also prevents Stutzman from having “to pay potentially ruinous attorneys’ fees,” the release said.

“I am willing to turn the legal struggle for freedom over to others. At age 77, it’s time to retire and give my business to someone else,” Stutzman said.

“I wish the culmination of all that I’ve been through could result in a new respect, culturally and legally, for freedom of conscience in our country,” Stutzman said. “From the beginning, I have asked no more than the freedom to act in accordance with my religious beliefs and personal convictions. I have treated those who persecuted me with respect, and with the assurance that I want for them the same freedom that I ask for myself.”

Alliance Defending Freedom has also defended fellow Christian wedding vendors who have cited their conscience in turning down business for same-sex ceremonies. The team represented a Christian baker in his 2018 Supreme Court victory and is continuing to argue on behalf of a Christian web designer, both challenging Colorado’s application of its anti-discrimination law.

The settlement by Stutzman leaves in place two unanimous decisions by the Washington state Supreme Court that the Constitution does not grant a license to discriminate against LGBTQ people, the ACLU of Washington said.

“We took on this case because we were worried about the harm being turned away would cause LGBTQ people,” Freed and Ingersoll said Thursday in a statement. “We are glad the Washington Supreme Court rulings will stay in place to ensure that same-sex couples are protected from discrimination and should be served by businesses like anyone else.”

The ACLU brought the anti-discrimination lawsuit against Stutzman in 2013 on behalf of Ingersoll and Freed.

Washington Attorney General Bob Ferguson sued separately, saying the floral artist violated the state’s Consumer Protection Act by declining to provide services based on sexual orientation.

A Benton County Superior Court judge in 2015 ruled that Stutzman must pay $1 in attorneys’ fees and costs to the state, along with a $1,000 civil penalty, for discriminating against the couple. That judgment still stands.

“We are pleased to hear that Arlene’s Flowers and Barronelle Stutzman have reached a settlement agreement with the couple they refused to serve,” Ferguson said in an email to the Tri-City Herald.

The two cases through appeals by Stutzman wen to the state Supreme Court, and then to the US Supreme Court.

The country’s highest court vacated Washington state’s previous ruling and sent it back to the lower court in 2018 for another review. The Washington Supreme Court in 2019 ruled unanimously that state courts did not act with animosity toward religion when they ruled Stutzman broke the state’s anti-discrimination laws by refusing on religious grounds to provide wedding flowers.

Stutzman and Alliance Defending Freedom—in their second attempt to get the case before the US Supreme Court—filed a petition for review in September 2019.

The Supreme Court in July declined to take up the case. Stutzman responded with a petition for rehearing, but she will withdraw it as part of her settlement.
Title: Re: Can Someone Living a Gay Lifestyle Be a Christian?
Post by: patrick jane on June 11, 2022, 06:51:06 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy_CNc8Bqbg