Patrick Jane Forums | Theology, Anthropology, Conspiracy

Christian Theology with DOUG and TED T. => Christian Theology => Topic started by: rstrats on February 12, 2021, 06:05:25 am


Title: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on February 12, 2021, 06:05:25 am

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Bladerunner on February 13, 2021, 07:11:53 pm

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Hi rstrats

NOT ME>>>>I know He spent three full days in the grave and those days in Abraham's bosom before He was resurrected.

Blade
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on February 13, 2021, 08:16:41 pm
Bladerunner,
re:  "NOT ME"

OK, no problem.  Someone new looking in may know of examples.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Bladerunner on February 15, 2021, 01:48:33 pm
Bladerunner,
re:  "NOT ME"

OK, no problem.  Someone new looking in may know of examples.

LOL,,,,rstrats....I think I was agreeing with you!!??!?!  lol.

Blade
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on June 28, 2021, 01:09:04 pm
And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Mr E on June 28, 2021, 02:49:45 pm
It was three dog nights and the heart of the earth is Shambala.

yeah yeah yeah yeah yay.

https://youtu.be/xnyh6i9NvmE
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Mr E on June 28, 2021, 03:25:31 pm
No?

How about this?  'The stomach of the earth'...?  It's the same word in Hebrew....  The three days and three nights that Jonah was in the belly, or stomach, or "heart" of the fish.  And this 'place' that Jonah found himself, he calls "Sheol"  -in other words, there is 'an-other' word to express the same concept.

Heart, belly, stomach, Sheol, underworld, place of death, even womb.... or grave, or tomb.... you pick.

And we know that Jesus was talking about the same thing because he explicitly states he's talking about the very same thing... (Matt 12)

--for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I don't think it's so much a matter of timing, as much as it is about location, location, location.  Hosea 6 prophesied that the people would be revived after two days.... on the third day.

It could be as simple a comparison as if we were telling a story and said something like "a few days later"  or "sometime later"  - as opposed to a specific time such as if you were to say- "later that same day" or "the very next day."

Why do you ask?  What significance do you apportion to this?

Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on June 28, 2021, 03:41:40 pm
Mr E,

re:  "No?"

I don't understand.  What are you asking?

 
re:  "Heart, belly, stomach, Sheol, underworld, place of death, even womb.... or grave, or tomb.... you pick."

The OP does that.  This topic is directed to those who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body.



re:  "Why do you ask?"

Simply curious.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Mr E on June 28, 2021, 04:48:29 pm
It's interesting if you really want to dive into it.  The Jewish day (yom) is of course 24 "hours" long.  12 hours for the day and 12 hours for the night.

Secondly, as seasons change for example-- as the days become shorter in the winter and the nights longer... they account for this by making the "hours" shorter or longer as well.  In San Diego, last week the first day of summer on the 21st we had 14 hours, 17 minutes of sunshine.  Who cares?  The Jews would simply make the hours longer so that there were exactly 12 hours in that day and not 14+...  Similarly that night there was only 9 hours, 43 minutes of darkness... wouldn't matter to the Jews- they would quicken the pace and shorten those hours so that there was exactly 12.

When scripture speaks of 'the sixth hour" (when Jesus was crucified) they are always speaking of half way through the day-- noon, or conversely half-way through the night or 'mid-night'.

This is much more of an exact way of speaking than what you are asking about concerning "three days"  which would be more like me referencing something I did "last weekend."  I can say "weekend" without specifying if I meant 'what I did on Saturday' or 'what I did on Saturday and/or Sunday' or even 'what I did after work on Friday until Monday'  -- and maybe it was a "long weekend...."  Was it?  I didn't say.  So too with the phrase "three days."

Does that help?
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on June 28, 2021, 04:57:00 pm
Mr E,
re:  "Does that help?"

Well since none of your comments provide examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur, then I'm afraid that it doesn't.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Mr E on June 28, 2021, 05:07:28 pm
Mr E,
re:  "Does that help?"

Well since none of your comments provide examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur, then I'm afraid that it doesn't.

I'm sure your comment makes sense to you.

Matthew 16-- Red sky at night, sailor's delight.  Red sky at morning, sailor's warning.  (a common forecast daytime or night time saying with a biblical example provided).   8)

If you could ask a clearer question, you might get a clearer answer.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Mr E on July 01, 2021, 11:26:03 am
A few thoughts toward your quest-

Maybe you've considered these already in some form or fashion as it seems you've puzzled over this for a long time.  I suspect that you might be trying to reconcile the apparent discrepancy of "what Jesus said" with what folks have come to believe to be the case concerning the resurrection timeline.  Could Jesus have said something inaccurate?  Sure.  He was human.  People say things loosely like that all the time without anyone calling them a liar. 

Could he have been speaking idiomatically?  I think you've covered that a hundred times already... again- Sure. 

Or-- he could have been 100% accurate in what he said and simply our understanding of the events isn't 100% complete.  If so, then there is no contradiction other than in our heads.

I think you've considered this too and seemed to have excluded it from the conversation, but the 3 days (yom) could even pertain to the 30 years he spent in Israel (the heart of the earth)  or perhaps the three years that 'the Christ' spent in the heart of Jesus (the earth man) during his time of ministry.

-and- it could be all of these things.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on July 02, 2021, 09:20:20 am
Mr E,
re: "I'm sure your comment makes sense to you."

Your sureness is right on. I do indeed understand my comment.



re:  "Matthew 16-- Red sky at night, sailor's delight.  Red sky at morning, sailor's warning.  (a common forecast daytime or night time saying with a biblical example provided)."

I don't see how that shows an example of where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.



re: "If you could ask a clearer question, you might get a clearer answer."

I don't know how it could be anymore clear. What is there about it that you don't understand?



re:  "I suspect that you might be trying to reconcile the apparent discrepancy of "what Jesus said" with what folks have come to believe to be the case concerning the resurrection timeline."

No, not for the purpose of this topic.



re:  "-and- it could be all of these things."

Perhaps, but not for the purpose of this topic.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Mr E on July 02, 2021, 01:20:26 pm
Well... for the purposes of this topic Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on July 02, 2021, 01:56:48 pm
Well... for the purposes of this topic Good luck with that.

OK, thanks.  But I'm not holding my breath.  However, you never know, someone new visiting this topic in the future may know of examples.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: patrick jane on July 02, 2021, 02:35:29 pm
Well... for the purposes of this topic Good luck with that.

OK, thanks.  But I'm not holding my breath.  However, you never know, someone new visiting this topic in the future may know of examples.
Maybe Jesus was killed on Thursday.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on July 02, 2021, 02:38:11 pm

Maybe Jesus was killed on Thursday.

That's an issue for a different topic.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 03, 2021, 09:17:06 pm
No?

How about this?  'The stomach of the earth'...?  It's the same word in Hebrew....  The three days and three nights that Jonah was in the belly, or stomach, or "heart" of the fish.  And this 'place' that Jonah found himself, he calls "Sheol"  -in other words, there is 'an-other' word to express the same concept.

Heart, belly, stomach, Sheol, underworld, place of death, even womb.... or grave, or tomb.... you pick.

And we know that Jesus was talking about the same thing because he explicitly states he's talking about the very same thing... (Matt 12)

--for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I don't think it's so much a matter of timing, as much as it is about location, location, location.  Hosea 6 prophesied that the people would be revived after two days.... on the third day.

It could be as simple a comparison as if we were telling a story and said something like "a few days later"  or "sometime later"  - as opposed to a specific time such as if you were to say- "later that same day" or "the very next day."

Why do you ask?  What significance do you apportion to this?

Hos 6:2..(KJV) "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

A Prophecy through His own words....As one day of the Lord is to us a thousand years, two days of being buried in the grave will fall away to being resurrected in the third day. Notice it says in the third day. This is likely a reference to the Rapture that can happen at any time now that two days or two thousand years have been fulfilled. 

Having said this, time is very short for the End of days is nearer to the beginning of the end.

**
The three days and three nights in the grave are for real in that the crucifixion happened around 3 PM on a Wendnesday afternoon and was buried before 6PM, the beginning of Thursday, A Feast Day which was considered a Sabbath. Therefore, nothing could happen on this day even travel to the grave site or more than 1/4 mile away. He did indeed arise on the third day after three days and three nights.

Thanks for listening

Blade
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on July 04, 2021, 06:43:03 am


re:  "The three days and three nights in the grave are for real in that the crucifixion happened around 3 PM on a Wendnesday..."

Actually, it happened around 9 AM in the morning.  And the idea of a Wednesday crucifixion would be an issue for a different topic.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 04, 2021, 08:27:31 pm


re:  "The three days and three nights in the grave are for real in that the crucifixion happened around 3 PM on a Wendnesday..."

Actually, it happened around 9 AM in the morning.  And the idea of a Wednesday crucifixion would be an issue for a different topic.

NO, it would not be a different topic.  It is within the scope of the Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why do you say 9 am in the morning and not on Wednesday? one of us is wrong!

Blade
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on July 05, 2021, 07:07:44 am
Bladerunner,
re:  "NO, it would not be a different topic.  It is within the scope of the Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

It would be a different topic because that is not the concern of this one.  This one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.




re:  "Why do you say 9 am in the morning..."

Mark 15:25 - "Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him."   I think that's generally considered to be around 9am. 

 

re:  "...and not on Wednesday?" 

Where have I said it's not on Wednesday?
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: Bladerunner on July 05, 2021, 04:05:58 pm
Bladerunner,
re:  "NO, it would not be a different topic.  It is within the scope of the Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

It would be a different topic because that is not the concern of this one.  This one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.




re:  "Why do you say 9 am in the morning..."

Mark 15:25 - "Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him."   I think that's generally considered to be around 9am. 

 

re:  "...and not on Wednesday?" 

Where have said it's not on Wednesday?

you said: "i.e., the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. "

Please excuse my ignorance, but I still do not understand what you are trying to say here?

Blade
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on July 07, 2021, 06:31:58 am

Please excuse my ignorance, but I still do not understand what you are trying to say here?

Blade

 The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

 However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.

I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on August 12, 2021, 10:20:15 am
Someone new looking in may know of examples.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: patrick jane on August 12, 2021, 11:27:58 am
Someone new looking in may know of examples.
Very possible.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on November 01, 2021, 06:41:37 am
And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: patrick jane on November 01, 2021, 09:00:05 am
And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
Hello brother, did you join my new forum yet?
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on November 01, 2021, 09:32:12 am
Quote from: patrick jane
[/quote
Hello brother, did you join my new forum yet?

Yes, back in August.
Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on November 24, 2021, 06:53:19 pm
Bladerunner,

You have a question directed to you in post #20.

Title: Re: Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
Post by: rstrats on December 16, 2021, 04:11:43 pm
Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.