Post by: Scotty on August 01, 2018, 04:37:51 pm
(https://3169.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcalvarysouthpitt.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F09%2FMeetThePastor_Banner_1.jpg&hash=adc6acaad337142814c5ddb86c6e793121cd0e5c)
Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyone
Post by: patrick jane on August 01, 2018, 11:28:21 pm
Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyoneI'm getting used to it boys. The reply/quote button is at the TOP of each post. Takes some getting used to. After a few hours on here, I've gotten pretty adept at navigating and getting used to where and what to click on. Hope to see you soon. If this forum somehow manages to grow, you will be the Forum Chaplain here as well.
Post by: joechan82 on August 04, 2018, 10:20:56 am
Post by: guest5 on August 05, 2018, 06:59:05 pm
Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyone
Aww yes! We stole the Chaplain!
Post by: patrick jane on August 06, 2018, 12:49:16 am
Post by: patrick jane on August 08, 2018, 12:39:53 pm
Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyoneIs that Bruce Willis in your avatar or is it you?
Post by: guest5 on August 08, 2018, 12:56:09 pm
I actually said to myself this morning “Brother Scott looks just like Bruce Willis”Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyoneIs that Bruce Willis in your avatar or is it you?
Post by: Sasha on August 08, 2018, 02:00:12 pm
Right now this is a Men's Club. Do you the Freemasons are for men only?
Looking over my shoulder in fear. :D
Post by: joechan82 on August 11, 2018, 01:12:05 pm
Post by: patrick jane on August 13, 2018, 10:34:08 am
Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyoneChaplain, you never answered me. I asked if that's you in the avatar or is it Bruce Willis, lol? It looks a little like Bruce but it could be you.
Post by: Scotty on August 21, 2018, 08:28:21 am
I would like to say me, But it is Bruce lolI actually said to myself this morning “Brother Scott looks just like Bruce Willis”Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyoneIs that Bruce Willis in your avatar or is it you?
Post by: patrick jane on August 21, 2018, 08:51:27 am
Post by: guest13 on August 21, 2018, 09:01:21 am
Howdy, My name is Scotty and I am happy to meet you. Looking forward to getting to know everyone
Welcome and so glad you joined. The encouragement and support you offer for your fellow posters has not gone unnoticed.
Thank you.
Post by: patrick jane on November 21, 2019, 09:11:25 am
Post by: guest116 on April 12, 2020, 01:21:59 pm
Any feed back, ideas or suggestions gladly taken.
I can start this as a separate thread if you all think that would be better
Post by: guest73 on April 12, 2020, 10:34:18 pm
So exactly what is this forum about? It says Chaplains corner on the title. I have been toying with toying with the idea od ministering to motorcycle groups and gatherings as a generic Chaplain.You're fine Mark. You can be the official Chaplain here if you choose, as we don't have one. I named Brian, who is Lori's husband but he is never here and he is the Chaplain over at Theology Forums. This is a really small forum but you can do whatever you would like here Mark, just let me know.
Any feed back, ideas or suggestions gladly taken.
I can start this as a separate thread if you all think that would be better
I think it's a great idea for you to minister to motorcycle groups. I would like to go to a seminary and get formal education material on theology etc. and them minister in prisons like mu uncle Larry Thornton.
Post by: guest116 on April 12, 2020, 10:50:37 pm
I am not sure what a Chaplain in a forum set up would be doing, I was just want to ask questions, get input and float ideas. Give me some basic guidance and I will be happy to consider it. It can only help me.
Post by: patrick jane on April 12, 2020, 11:12:37 pm
I spent to many hours in prison as an investigator interviewing people many years ago, I have a big block on that. I know they need God's word, I also know I can not be the one at this point.Yes, I think it is good experience with communicating and interacting with people. Sometimes I have needed prayers and spiritual advice. You would simply look for any new posts in the forum and reply accordingly. Prayer requests, counseling and advice and spiritual guidance etc. You will do it only if you want to and it may be very few times that you are called upon. We had a Chaplain that was upset that people weren't requesting him so he quit.
I am not sure what a Chaplain in a forum set up would be doing, I was just want to ask questions, get input and float ideas. Give me some basic guidance and I will be happy to consider it. It can only help me.
Post by: guest116 on April 12, 2020, 11:21:52 pm
I was thinking of daily scriptures and things like that.
Post by: patrick jane on April 12, 2020, 11:33:49 pm
Is it not a good thing not to be needed in the majority of times?Yes !!! I forgot that, oh my. That would be awesome Mark. Any scriptures you want and you can do it daily or weekly or whatever works for you. I will change the opening posts in these three Chaplain threads to show your name.
I was thinking of daily scriptures and things like that.
Post by: guest116 on April 12, 2020, 11:40:13 pm
Post by: patrick jane on April 12, 2020, 11:46:50 pm
I do not want to tread on any one's thread or job. I want harmony and peace to prevail.No, it's fine it wasn't anyone's job. I volunteered Brian without asking him, hahaha. He pops in a few times a year but never really posts. Everyone here will welcome you as the Forum Chaplain.
Post by: guest116 on April 13, 2020, 10:20:37 pm
As I read through about 300-page book of quotes from him, I plan on posting the ones that strike me as worth all to read.
I also plan on throwing in quotes from some of the giants in theology as Aquinas, Luther, Spurgeon, and others as I look through various scribbled notes.
Post by: Sherman on April 13, 2020, 10:24:31 pm
Post by: patrick jane on April 13, 2020, 10:26:29 pm
Often forums have more than one Chaplain. So it doesn't hurt to have more than one.Yes indeed, thank you Sherman. It's good to see you.
Post by: Sherman on April 16, 2020, 09:14:40 pm
Post by: guest8 on April 16, 2020, 11:08:42 pm
You'll probably be seeing me more. I am liking the atmosphere here. The members are nice to each other.
Nice to have you aboard Sherman.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on April 29, 2020, 09:11:30 am
There are 7000 know languages of those 7000 the Bible has been translated into 2900 as of 2018.
There are 531 known versions of the Bible published. Of those 531 as of 2018, the NIV is the most sold and the KJV is still in the top five depending on where you are at. The survey in 2018 shows the KJV as number three overall. An interesting side note was the Evangelicals tend to use the KJV more than other major Christian denominations.
KJV is considered still to be the most eloquent translation. King James had wanted readability and eloquence over truth and accuracy.
Now to answer my own questions, I used the ESV the most daily. It was what the seminary I attended used in the main and I am comfortable with it. If I was buying or gifting someone a Bible it most likely would be giving them the NIV. The difference if they are a student entering into a religious study course it would be the Oxford Bible with notes, commentaries, and the Apocrypha. This is by far the best Bible for academic use as it is denomination neutral in the notes.
Post by: guest116 on May 07, 2020, 09:05:51 pm
In the article, the quote that hit me as religious applicable was from Louis Pasteur and a Noble Laureate in medicine recently: The human body needs to be exposed to germs, virus, and bacteria at some level for the body to be healthy, As it was an example in as simple terms as I can understand, for the immune system to work, it needs to be exposed to bad things so it can build its immunity to them. The recent Nobel Laureate explained as your body's immune system is build for war and to fight always. If it is always supplemented or never fights, the immune systems are weakened. So, both at different times recommend, fight out a cold now and then, suffer through the mild flu. Give your immune system something to fight, something to live for.
This got me thinking that religion is much the same. It is built around faith, belief, and salvation. But how do we know that we are on the right track unless we encounter sin and despair and other negative life events, temptations? So, does that mean we need to go out and seek sin, temptations, or the like, No, it doesn’t. We are exposed to it all the time in small doses. What I say is it means much like our immune system, our beliefs are a warrior that needs to resist what is thrown at us each day to stay strong and build itself up. We need to feed our warriors through our prayers, or recognition that we fight temptations every day. We need to celebrate those wins to help us build up our own immunity to issues of the world around us. Just my humble opinion and thoughts.
Post by: patrick jane on May 07, 2020, 09:47:26 pm
I was sitting in my doctor’s office and picked up a trade magazine that was laying around her office. While waiting for her to show up with test results. Yes, in her actual office and not an exam room. There was this article about germs and being human. It got me thinking about religion.I agree Mark. Being aware of satan's devices and deceptions as we encounter them daily is very important.
In the article, the quote that hit me as religious applicable was from Louis Pasteur and a Noble Laureate in medicine recently: The human body needs to be exposed to germs, virus, and bacteria at some level for the body to be healthy, As it was an example in as simple terms as I can understand, for the immune system to work, it needs to be exposed to bad things so it can build its immunity to them. The recent Nobel Laureate explained as your body's immune system is build for war and to fight always. If it is always supplemented or never fights, the immune systems are weakened. So, both at different times recommend, fight out a cold now and then, suffer through the mild flu. Give your immune system something to fight, something to live for.
This got me thinking that religion is much the same. It is built around faith, belief, and salvation. But how do we know that we are on the right track unless we encounter sin and despair and other negative life events, temptations? So, does that mean we need to go out and seek sin, temptations, or the like, No, it doesn’t. We are exposed to it all the time in small doses. What I say is it means much like our immune system, our beliefs are a warrior that needs to resist what is thrown at us each day to stay strong and build itself up. We need to feed our warriors through our prayers, or recognition that we fight temptations every day. We need to celebrate those wins to help us build up our own immunity to issues of the world around us. Just my humble opinion and thoughts.
Post by: patrick jane on May 14, 2020, 12:48:05 am
Post by: guest116 on May 21, 2020, 12:23:13 am
Post by: guest116 on June 04, 2020, 11:13:08 pm
Post by: patrick jane on June 04, 2020, 11:22:54 pm
I have been reading and studying John Wesley. What I am struggling with his getting a clear understanding of his philosophy "Grace before Faith".Does that mean we are saved before we ever believe?
Post by: guest116 on June 04, 2020, 11:38:46 pm
Post by: patrick jane on June 17, 2020, 08:25:10 am
4 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS4bzICUnv0
Post by: guest116 on July 04, 2020, 05:29:47 pm
I know many I speak with and when in seminary, spoke with, in that age bracket felt that Christian, as it has been present, is no longer in sync with their faith and belief. Yet in conversation it was obvious we are speaking about the same things and we have the same beliefs. It was apparent to me at least that it was in the execution and the understanding. This shift is forcing all Christian denominations from Catholics to evangelicals to review what they are doing and how they are doing it.
So is religion as we know it facing extinction in its present form, or as my son put it, committing suicide because of its rigid adherence to 500-year-old dogma? I think we are. We can present a more current message without sacrificing faith and belief as we believe Jesus was teaching us. To many of us have strayed from the root messages and teach to further a denominations agenda or a personal agenda that has little to do with faith and belief. THIS HAS TO CHANGE. If it does not we will be on the trash heap of history.
Post by: guest116 on July 05, 2020, 02:17:16 pm
Post by: patrick jane on July 05, 2020, 02:31:58 pm
If I said I am a Christian, I am not saying I am a clean living person, I am whispering that I am not, that I was lost, but have been found and forgiven. If I tell you I am a Christian I am not speaking it with pride, I am whispering it, as I know I have to stumble and need Christ in my life as my guide. I am not trying to be strong if I say I am a Christian, no I am admitting I am weak and need His strength to carry on. If I told you I am a Christian I am not bragging, no I am stating I have failed, and I have failed many times, and need God to help me clean up my messes. If I tell you I am a Christian I am not claiming I perfect, My flaws are far too many and way too visible for that claim, by God believes I am worth his grace. When I say I do say I am a Christian I am not saying it as holier than thou, no I am just a simple everyday sinner who received God’s grace, somehow, and want to share.Wow, this is awesome Chaplain Mark !!! Thank you -
Post by: guest8 on July 05, 2020, 05:12:16 pm
If I said I am a Christian, I am not saying I am a clean living person, I am whispering that I am not, that I was lost, but have been found and forgiven. If I tell you I am a Christian I am not speaking it with pride, I am whispering it, as I know I have to stumble and need Christ in my life as my guide. I am not trying to be strong if I say I am a Christian, no I am admitting I am weak and need His strength to carry on. If I told you I am a Christian I am not bragging, no I am stating I have failed, and I have failed many times, and need God to help me clean up my messes. If I tell you I am a Christian I am not claiming I perfect, My flaws are far too many and way too visible for that claim, by God believes I am worth his grace. When I say I do say I am a Christian I am not saying it as holier than thou, no I am just a simple everyday sinner who received God’s grace, somehow, and want to share.Wow, this is awesome Chaplain Mark !!! Thank you -
Mark, it may seem that I am dumping on you in my last two post. I assure you I am not but rather trying to present a different opinion and why I have that opinion.
You are doing a great job on this forum and I hope you are here for a long while.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on July 05, 2020, 09:59:23 pm
Post by: guest8 on July 05, 2020, 10:38:52 pm
I took it as you meant it you sincere beliefs and the point as a theologian that you are coming from. I love all viewpoints as that is how I gain knowledge perspective and understanding. That is why we are all here is it not and exchange of ideas, and beliefs in the glory of God?
Amen!
Blade
Post by: guest116 on July 06, 2020, 02:35:42 pm
It goes like this
This book contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of Salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are Holy, its principles are binding, its histories are true and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, practice it to be Holy.
It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is travelers map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's com[pass, the soldier's sword, and the Christians chart. In here Paradise is restored, heaven opened and the gates of hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the Glory to God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heard, guide the feet. Read it slowly, fervently and prayerfully.
It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of health, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you in life, will be opened in judgement and will be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifles with its Holy content.
Give to you my son, December 1966.
Post by: patrick jane on July 06, 2020, 02:43:32 pm
While I was going through the various Bibles that I have that are King James Versions I came across a slip of paper I wish I could take credit for, but alas it was my mothers insights she had written and stuck in my baptismal gift Bible.Wow, 54 years ago. That is beautiful.
It goes like this
This book contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of Salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are Holy, its principles are binding, its histories are true and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, practice it to be Holy.
It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is travelers map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's com[pass, the soldier's sword, and the Christians chart. In here Paradise is restored, heaven opened and the gates of hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the Glory to God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heard, guide the feet. Read it slowly, fervently and prayerfully.
It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of health, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you in life, will be opened in judgement and will be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifles with its Holy content.
Give to you my son, December 1966.
Post by: guest8 on July 06, 2020, 10:16:49 pm
While I was going through the various Bibles that I have that are King James Versions I came across a slip of paper I wish I could take credit for, but alas it was my mothers insights she had written and stuck in my baptismal gift Bible.Wow, 54 years ago. That is beautiful.
It goes like this
This book contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of Salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are Holy, its principles are binding, its histories are true and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, practice it to be Holy.
It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is travelers map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's com[pass, the soldier's sword, and the Christians chart. In here Paradise is restored, heaven opened and the gates of hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the Glory to God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heard, guide the feet. Read it slowly, fervently and prayerfully.
It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of health, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you in life, will be opened in judgement and will be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifles with its Holy content.
Give to you my son, December 1966.
As many mothers, still taking care of her son! Beautiful Yes.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on July 17, 2020, 12:27:51 pm
That is what we need for the intellectual side of our beleifs.
Post by: guest116 on July 23, 2020, 01:19:31 am
This is something that I have been contemplating lately.
What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: guest24 on August 05, 2020, 07:02:05 am
Many people think they have left Chrisitian behind them. That it is no longer needed or necessary. Some even claim they are atheists. But, my question is, if you look at how they were and how they are now, can you honestly say the were ever truly believers in Christianity? Some may never had even a proper introduction to it.Since I do not believe it is impossible to "fall away" I believe that for some it is that they never understood they need an actual relationship with God, personal and all but for others, they simply didn't have deep enough roots to sustain them.
This is something that I have been contemplating lately.
What are your thoughts on this?
I also believe that some of the falling away is on the church unfortunately. Our pastor has been fond of saying that in many instances we are just leaving the newborn believer on the floor to fend for themselves...meaning we are not disciplineing them. In fact, discipleship is what we feel God is calling and leading us into because it is sorely missing it seems in the churches today.
Post by: guest116 on August 05, 2020, 10:33:53 am
I fully agree some of the fault falls squarely on the churches. The church I grew up in had a mentorship program to bring new members and new converts along for a full year. When I started my journey back to faith, I had no one so I used books, you tube, forums like this and now it is a habit that has replaced the church more that it should. I still feel abandon by the church is most of it. That is not how it was intend by the founding apostles and disciplines of Christ.
Thank you for a good post to stimulate thought.
Post by: guest24 on August 05, 2020, 02:11:03 pm
While I do think you can stray away, not sure if you can fall completely away. While I never topped beleiveing, I did stray down a different path that pushed my beliefs to the back of my thoughts and action for many years. While I never stopped praying and did not stop my conversations with God, I was not giving anything a active thought.I have never walked away, even for a season (btw, I believe there is a difference between straying and falling away) so I can't relate to that but as to the church I totally get it. We ourselves did not go to a local church body for a season and we didn't have a lot of access at that time to on line things. The church can and often is a very hostile place. I pray for a revival including but not limited to the "church".
I fully agree some of the fault falls squarely on the churches. The church I grew up in had a mentorship program to bring new members and new converts along for a full year. When I started my journey back to faith, I had no one so I used books, you tube, forums like this and now it is a habit that has replaced the church more that it should. I still feel abandon by the church is most of it. That is not how it was intend by the founding apostles and disciplines of Christ.
Thank you for a good post to stimulate thought.
If you ever feel the need to talk I'm just a PM away or Brian would be happy to talk or listen ;) as well. (in case you don't know, Brian is my husband and is easiest found on the theology forum as chaplain but I can give you more contact for him as well.
To give you an idea, not only have we experienced some of the usual abuses of the church but one church where Brian pastored, got so upset about him preaching that we are to love even our enemies that they threatened him, when he stood firm, they threatened me, when that didn't cause him to cave, they threatened our children, when he still stood firm, they fired him. We went to another church and they got so upset that a couple of much older deaccons children literally through our then young boys against the brick wall, we were on the verge of ER visit...didn't take long for them to fire him after that, all because he would not cave on the word of God...and that is just a few stories I could share.
Today we are part of a body but have been mistreated there as well. So we focus on the faithful there and the ministry God is calling us into and allow God to defend us, protect us, and even avenge us in His time. (Not that we want vengeance but that God will punish those that need corrected and judge as is just.
May you grow in our Lord and King as you fall deeper and deeper in Love with Him.
Post by: guest58 on August 06, 2020, 10:53:52 am
You might be interested in the FB group: Outlaw Church of West Texas led by Clint Overland (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1632795216952314/) ...
Any feed back, ideas or suggestions gladly taken.
I can start this as a separate thread if you all think that would be better
Post by: guest58 on August 06, 2020, 11:04:37 am
Does that mean we are saved before we ever believe?
The elect are under the promise of salvation by their election looooong before the salvation process is ever started in them. Is HIS promise good? Then the sinful elect can be counted among the saved and the righteous though still in thier sins...
Post by: guest58 on August 06, 2020, 11:15:04 am
Many people think they have left Chrisitian behind them. That it is no longer needed or necessary. Some even claim they are atheists. But, my question is, if you look at how they were and how they are now, can you honestly say the were ever truly believers in Christianity? Some may never had even a proper introduction to it.
This is something that I have been contemplating lately.
What are your thoughts on this?
I agree and I believe the parable of the sower exemplifies this point. The five foolish virgins that have no personal relationship with our Lord at all (He does not know them!) are in the wedding party after all.
Post by: guest116 on August 07, 2020, 11:10:40 am
Post by: guest116 on August 13, 2020, 04:29:50 pm
Post by: guest24 on August 17, 2020, 08:26:59 am
A thought that just pased through my head: If you have no faith in yourself can never have faith in God.I might argue that until you lose faith in yourself, you have no idea how to have faith in God.
Such a busy day ahead but let me explain. When we have faith in ourselves, we are trustingour own abilitites when we are to trust God for the things that we need. In the military, they break you down before building you us into a unit rather than an individual yet the centurian was hailed in scripture as having a faith unlike any Christ had seen before. He had learned how to stop being an individual, putting his trust in himself and learned how to be a unit, with trust in the commanders over him. Until we learn to be a body, a soldier whose commander is God, we are missing it.
Speaking of missing it, maybe I missed where you were going with this and thus spoke out of turn.
Post by: guest116 on August 17, 2020, 12:14:51 pm
What I was getting at, if we do not have faith in ourselves as in faith in our own faith and belief in God, then having faith alone will not stand up to tempations and tests of life. Our faith in our own faith must be so strong that our faith in God is unwavering.
That is all the further I got into my thought process.
Hope that helps explain my thought better.
Post by: patrick jane on August 17, 2020, 02:15:25 pm
Actually Lori, The thought occurred and then I got distracted and did not finish my thought.I looked into studying our faith and never finished. We are told by God that if our faith; if MY faith was that of the size of a mustard seed I could remove a mountain. That tells me that God knows we are ALL weak in faith. I believe it is the faith of Jesus Christ that saves me and not my own tiny miniscule portion of "faith".
What I was getting at, if we do not have faith in ourselves as in faith in our own faith and belief in God, then having faith alone will not stand up to tempations and tests of life. Our faith in our own faith must be so strong that our faith in God is unwavering.
That is all the further I got into my thought process.
Hope that helps explain my thought better.
On the other hand, I believe and nothing will ever change that. Complicated is our faith.
Post by: guest116 on August 17, 2020, 03:20:14 pm
Post by: guest8 on August 17, 2020, 11:18:32 pm
Actually Lori, The thought occurred and then I got distracted and did not finish my thought.I looked into studying our faith and never finished. We are told by God that if our faith; if MY faith was that of the size of a mustard seed I could remove a mountain. That tells me that God knows we are ALL weak in faith. I believe it is the faith of Jesus Christ that saves me and not my own tiny miniscule portion of "faith".
What I was getting at, if we do not have faith in ourselves as in faith in our own faith and belief in God, then having faith alone will not stand up to tempations and tests of life. Our faith in our own faith must be so strong that our faith in God is unwavering.
That is all the further I got into my thought process.
Hope that helps explain my thought better.
On the other hand, I believe and nothing will ever change that. Complicated is our faith.
Having Faith in Jesus is given to us in the scripture. "according to Scripture" we are told three times in the representation of His Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4). The more we study His word, the deeper our faith becomes.
Me, I simply believe every word of the KJV Bible to the point that I have faith that I can prove it is His WORD. The WORD of an extraterrestrial, one beyond our time who took His time to create us, guide us through the centuries and give us a way to become immortal (eternal) with HIM....I look forward to that day.
Therefore, every time you are reading/studying the Bible, you are studying your faith in Him.
Blade
Post by: guest24 on August 18, 2020, 06:41:54 am
Actually Lori, The thought occurred and then I got distracted and did not finish my thought.I guess I see it as faith in God and His promises rather than faith in myself. I was taught to short version, hate myself and there are times where that is a problem but other times when it is a great blessing because I put no faith in myself, thus having to put faith in someone else, I chose to trust God. Hope that makes sense....I am not saying you are wrong, just saying how I see the terminology if nothing else.
What I was getting at, if we do not have faith in ourselves as in faith in our own faith and belief in God, then having faith alone will not stand up to tempations and tests of life. Our faith in our own faith must be so strong that our faith in God is unwavering.
That is all the further I got into my thought process.
Hope that helps explain my thought better.
Post by: guest24 on August 18, 2020, 06:47:25 am
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
Post by: patrick jane on August 18, 2020, 07:25:12 am
I think there are many that misunderstand this passage...Romans 10:17It means one must hear about God and Christ. Obviously you can't believe something you've never heard nor seen of.
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
Post by: guest24 on August 18, 2020, 09:31:11 am
i am a firm believer in the totality of scripture so lets add Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.I think there are many that misunderstand this passage...Romans 10:17It means one must hear about God and Christ. Obviously you can't believe something you've never heard nor seen of.
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
to our undersstanding...if our faith is in our faith, who is our faith really in if He is the one that gave it to us? And if HE is the one that gave it to us, then we must have heard HIS voice in order to have recieved it, whether it was from the Bible, a teacher, a preacher, a song, or just from the Spirit's whisper, or yell (lol)
Post by: patrick jane on August 18, 2020, 09:38:26 am
Amen. I was thinking of those who never heard of Jesus or the words in scripture, like before Jesus walked the earth etc remote islands and deep jungles etc.i am a firm believer in the totality of scripture so lets add Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.I think there are many that misunderstand this passage...Romans 10:17It means one must hear about God and Christ. Obviously you can't believe something you've never heard nor seen of.
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
to our understanding...if our faith is in our faith, who is our faith really in if He is the one that gave it to us? And if HE is the one that gave it to us, then we must have heard HIS voice in order to have recieved it, whether it was from the Bible, a teacher, a preacher, a song, or just from the Spirit's whisper, or yell (lol)
So, I thought that God speaks to us but would we instinctively "know" God has a Son? Who died for every person for remission of sins? That's why my statement and subsequent belief that MY faith is small and weak and we are actually saved by His blood and His faith. I believe that nothing I do or can ever do in the earth will "get me to heaven" which also reminds me of the thread I started about the Crowns awarded in heaven.
Post by: guest24 on August 18, 2020, 10:14:36 am
some time ago, Brian was telling me about a phenomena where all around the world there is a "God" story similar to the Christ...which reminds me of the passage that says we are without excuse.Amen. I was thinking of those who never heard of Jesus or the words in scripture, like before Jesus walked the earth etc remote islands and deep jungles etc.i am a firm believer in the totality of scripture so lets add Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.I think there are many that misunderstand this passage...Romans 10:17It means one must hear about God and Christ. Obviously you can't believe something you've never heard nor seen of.
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
to our understanding...if our faith is in our faith, who is our faith really in if He is the one that gave it to us? And if HE is the one that gave it to us, then we must have heard HIS voice in order to have recieved it, whether it was from the Bible, a teacher, a preacher, a song, or just from the Spirit's whisper, or yell (lol)
So, I thought that God speaks to us but would we instinctively "know" God has a Son? Who died for every person for remission of sins? That's why my statement and subsequent belief that MY faith is small and weak and we are actually saved by His blood and His faith. I believe that nothing I do or can ever do in the earth will "get me to heaven" which also reminds me of the thread I started about the Crowns awarded in heaven.
Post by: guest8 on August 19, 2020, 09:15:58 am
some time ago, Brian was telling me about a phenomena where all around the world there is a "God" story similar to the Christ...which reminds me of the passage that says we are without excuse.Amen. I was thinking of those who never heard of Jesus or the words in scripture, like before Jesus walked the earth etc remote islands and deep jungles etc.i am a firm believer in the totality of scripture so lets add Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.I think there are many that misunderstand this passage...Romans 10:17It means one must hear about God and Christ. Obviously you can't believe something you've never heard nor seen of.
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
to our understanding...if our faith is in our faith, who is our faith really in if He is the one that gave it to us? And if HE is the one that gave it to us, then we must have heard HIS voice in order to have recieved it, whether it was from the Bible, a teacher, a preacher, a song, or just from the Spirit's whisper, or yell (lol)
So, I thought that God speaks to us but would we instinctively "know" God has a Son? Who died for every person for remission of sins? That's why my statement and subsequent belief that MY faith is small and weak and we are actually saved by His blood and His faith. I believe that nothing I do or can ever do in the earth will "get me to heaven" which also reminds me of the thread I started about the Crowns awarded in heaven.
Lori...All people even those not touched by missionaries, etc. have no excuse as to the reality there is a GOD. Even the Bible tells us so..All they have to do is look outside and see HIM...'''
Rom 1:20.."For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Therefore nobody on earth can use the excuse: "I did not know" on Judgement day.
Blade
Post by: guest24 on August 19, 2020, 12:30:05 pm
Kind of what I just said...but cool, we agreesome time ago, Brian was telling me about a phenomena where all around the world there is a "God" story similar to the Christ...which reminds me of the passage that says we are without excuse.Amen. I was thinking of those who never heard of Jesus or the words in scripture, like before Jesus walked the earth etc remote islands and deep jungles etc.i am a firm believer in the totality of scripture so lets add Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.I think there are many that misunderstand this passage...Romans 10:17It means one must hear about God and Christ. Obviously you can't believe something you've never heard nor seen of.
King James Version
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
but for the sake of discussion, how do you think this passage fits into the discussion?
to our understanding...if our faith is in our faith, who is our faith really in if He is the one that gave it to us? And if HE is the one that gave it to us, then we must have heard HIS voice in order to have recieved it, whether it was from the Bible, a teacher, a preacher, a song, or just from the Spirit's whisper, or yell (lol)
So, I thought that God speaks to us but would we instinctively "know" God has a Son? Who died for every person for remission of sins? That's why my statement and subsequent belief that MY faith is small and weak and we are actually saved by His blood and His faith. I believe that nothing I do or can ever do in the earth will "get me to heaven" which also reminds me of the thread I started about the Crowns awarded in heaven.
Lori...All people even those not touched by missionaries, etc. have no excuse as to the reality there is a GOD. Even the Bible tells us so..All they have to do is look outside and see HIM...'''
Rom 1:20.."For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Therefore nobody on earth can use the excuse: "I did not know" on Judgement day.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on August 27, 2020, 01:41:06 am
From Biblical Archeology magazine.
Post by: guest8 on August 27, 2020, 08:48:07 pm
The British Library has put some of the most famous religious texts online. Their new collection, Discovering Sacred Texts, is accessible to the public (www.bl.uk/sacred-texts/). It features nearly 300 texts that are sacred to a variety of religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism. For some of these texts, it is the first time they have been made available to the general public. Some highlights include the first complete Mishnah (from 1492), the Codex Sinaiticus (one of the earliest Christian Bibles, from the fourth century), and the Ma’il Quran (one of the oldest copies of the Quran, from the eighth century). Now anyone can explore these manuscripts—from anywhere in the world with internet access!
From Biblical Archeology magazine.
Thanks Mark, there are some good material within this link. While I have scanned over several articles, I have also saved the link for future reference.
Thanks.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on August 27, 2020, 08:50:44 pm
Post by: guest116 on August 28, 2020, 06:46:39 pm
St. Augustine of Hippo
St Augustine of Hippo Holy CardSaint Augustine of Hippo, a man of great intellect and one of the most important Church fathers, sought comfort in worldly pleasures but found no solace in them. His life is an example of how worldly distractions interfere with living a true Christian life. His quote, “I have learned to love you late, beauty at once so ancient and so new!” is testament to his powerful and complete conversion to Christianity.
Pope Boniface VII designated St. Augustine as Doctor of the Church in 1298. The Western Church celebrates the feast of St. Augustine on August 28. Eastern Christianity designates June 15 as his feast day and the Assyrian Church celebrates November 4 as his feast day. He is the patron saint of brewers, printers and theologians. His search for truth and subsequent devotion to Christ also makes St. Augustine a saintly hero for members of the RCIA or recent converts to Catholicism.
Post by: guest8 on August 28, 2020, 08:03:47 pm
For all of us Theologians
St. Augustine of Hippo
St Augustine of Hippo Holy CardSaint Augustine of Hippo, a man of great intellect and one of the most important Church fathers, sought comfort in worldly pleasures but found no solace in them. His life is an example of how worldly distractions interfere with living a true Christian life. His quote, “I have learned to love you late, beauty at once so ancient and so new!” is testament to his powerful and complete conversion to Christianity.
Pope Boniface VII designated St. Augustine as Doctor of the Church in 1298. The Western Church celebrates the feast of St. Augustine on August 28. Eastern Christianity designates June 15 as his feast day and the Assyrian Church celebrates November 4 as his feast day. He is the patron saint of brewers, printers and theologians. His search for truth and subsequent devotion to Christ also makes St. Augustine a saintly hero for members of the RCIA or recent converts to Catholicism.
did not St. Augustine finally come around to the Justifcation by fasith and faith alone. I think He did..
Blade
Post by: guest116 on August 28, 2020, 08:08:46 pm
I like some of what he says other stuff I have to remind myself when he wrote it.
Post by: guest8 on August 28, 2020, 10:37:38 pm
Yes, he did in the end. In all denominations that venerate saints, he has been venerated as a saint. Mostly for the theology he expressed and being a convert from a depraved womanizer as one scholar put it. I think his writing can give anyone what they seek if they wade through it when it comes to faith.
I like some of what he says other stuff I have to remind myself when he wrote it.
Yes, I understand, As I have several of his writings one has to be careful to discern the time he wrote them.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on August 30, 2020, 01:05:36 pm
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds (2 Cor. 10:4).
We are called into the service of spiritual warfare by God. We belong to Him, and therefore we are in the army of the Lord. Our enemy is the devil. He has great power and will do everything in his power to see us defeated.
The entirety of this world is a spiritual battlefield. Even so, we may never actually see the war being waged. If the truth is told, the war itself is already over. Christ won the ultimate victory at Calvary. Yet there are battles still being fought. What are the spoils of these battles? They are, to God, of the greatest value. The souls of those who stand in the valley of decision are won and lost everyday.
As believers, we are also called to be soul-winners. Every spiritual battle fought is fought so unbelievers can come to Christ. That is the goal of any soldier in the Lord's army.
Every soldier goes to battle with equipment that is trusted, effective and reliable. No soldier would ever go to battle without their equipment. What is the spiritual equipment that the Lord provides to the believer in His service? We put on Jesus Christ. Notice that each piece of the armor of God is a synonym for Jesus.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God (Eph. 6:13-17).
Are you ready for battle today?
Thank you Father for always giving us what we need in every battle we may face!!
Post by: guest116 on September 10, 2020, 01:11:23 pm
"Cast all your anxieties on Him, because He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7) Our Lord is faithful and He has never promised or said that we would not have anxiety, worry, or fear and yet His word does tell us that when we are anxious we can let our burdens down at His feet, surrendering them to His care and He will give us rest, peace, renewal, and strength. So whatever you face today my brothers and sisters do as the Psalmist says in Psalm 56:3, "When I am afraid, I put my trust in You." and let God revive your faith.
Thank you C. Boggs for letting me repost here.
Post by: guest116 on September 15, 2020, 01:19:28 pm
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:12-13)
On this day we can see that for many their hearts have grown cold and turned away from acts of kindness and love towards their neighbor. The bible teaches that if we endure until the end we shall be saved and yet you might be saying to yourself, "But I am saved already." It is true that we are saved and yet truth also be told in order to reach the eternal goal and earn the crown that will not fade we must continue to do good and to live well in the love of Christ. My hope is that everyone will know and learn to live and to love in the love of our Lord but until that comes or even if it doesn't may we continue to live and be radical lovers of one another and those who are of the world. May we be careful as well to be friends to the world instead of lovers of the world. Let us love radically today and endure to the end. Keep running the race of faith my brothers and sisters. Be blessed to be a blessing today as always. Amen.
Post by: patrick jane on September 15, 2020, 08:26:53 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mYxf7xxATU
Post by: patrick jane on September 15, 2020, 08:27:06 pm
Post by: guest116 on September 15, 2020, 08:51:17 pm
Post by: guest116 on September 22, 2020, 01:21:55 am
C.S. Lewis
Post by: guest116 on September 23, 2020, 10:03:54 pm
I admit I prefer the historical and academic side of Theology and still not comfortable with the real time application.
Post by: guest116 on September 28, 2020, 11:26:29 am
Post by: guest8 on September 28, 2020, 08:13:36 pm
In our youth we build an image of ourselves, then spend a lifetime trying to live up to that image. Why not deconstruct that image and build one that is based on one you do not have to live up to but can live daily with.
Well said, Well said!
Blade
Post by: guest116 on October 05, 2020, 12:40:15 am
Post by: guest8 on October 05, 2020, 08:11:08 pm
Have you ever wondered why there is no plain language theology?
Don't think I have ever heard about a Plain Language? Must be something NEW! What people or nation uses this "Plain" Language.
LOL...
Have a great evening, my friend.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on October 05, 2020, 09:44:24 pm
LOL
Post by: guest116 on October 16, 2020, 11:53:25 pm
I struggle with this. You see, I have no idea what God will ultimately do. I am not one to assume based on 2000 years old inspired writings nor presume they still apply as originally intended since they were not intended for humanity to become what it has. That is my internal battle.
As I see it, no one, absolutely no one can speak for or to what God will do with or to us as our spirit/soul passes on. We have all made assumptions on the importance of Grace and Faith. We even make assumptions and arguments on what each of those means. So in deep reflection and prayer, I came to the only answer I can come to and works for me and how I understand all of this.
Live your life in such a way that you leave no doubt to God your holiness, grace, and faith is/was according to his word. That way you remove worry about how others interpret and the argument over salvation because of grace and/or faith. I have always believed life is to be lived for God’s glory, not for someone else’s determination of what God’s glory and love is. You know inside if you are doing this. So do it: Live your life for God.
Post by: patrick jane on October 17, 2020, 12:04:11 am
Okay, I am going out on a limb and hope it starts a conversation and not a conflict. I have heard and read about salvation. There is salvation through Grace alone, there is Salvation through Faith alone and there was Salvation through both Faith and Grace. All of the reformers appear, to the best research I can do, to base their salvation theory’s on Augustine's writings on Paul or from Paul’s writings alone.Great post brother. I will read it some more and reply Saturday, later today now actually. You touched on what everyone thinks eventually and we all want answers in this life etc. Great topic.
I struggle with this. You see, I have no idea what God will ultimately do. I am not one to assume based on 2000 years old inspired writings nor presume they still apply as originally intended since they were not intended for humanity to become what it has. That is my internal battle.
As I see it, no one, absolutely no one can speak for or to what God will do with or to us as our spirit/soul passes on. We have all man assumption on the importance of Grace and Faith. We even make assumptions and arguments on what each of those means. So in deep reflection and prayer, I came to the only answer I can come to and works for me and how I understand all of this.
Live your life in such a way that you leave no doubt to God your holiness, grace, and faith is/was according to his word. That way you remove worry about others interpret and argument over salvation because of grace and/or faith. I have always believed life is to be lived for God’s glory, not for someone else’s determination of what God’s glory and love is. You know inside if you are doing this. So do it: Live your life for God.
Post by: guest24 on October 17, 2020, 10:43:55 am
Okay, I am going out on a limb and hope it starts a conversation and not a conflict. I have heard and read about salvation. There is salvation through Grace alone, there is Salvation through Faith alone and there is Salvation through both Faith and Grace. All of the reformers appear, to the best research I can do, to base their salvation theory’s on Augustine's writings on Paul or from Paul’s writings alone.It would seem from your post that I am a very unique individual...lol...to put it mildly
I struggle with this. You see, I have no idea what God will ultimately do. I am not one to assume based on 2000 years old inspired writings nor presume they still apply as originally intended since they were not intended for humanity to become what it has. That is my internal battle.
As I see it, no one, absolutely no one can speak for or to what God will do with or to us as our spirit/soul passes on. We have all made assumptions on the importance of Grace and Faith. We even make assumptions and arguments on what each of those means. So in deep reflection and prayer, I came to the only answer I can come to and works for me and how I understand all of this.
Live your life in such a way that you leave no doubt to God your holiness, grace, and faith is/was according to his word. That way you remove worry about how others interpret and the argument over salvation because of grace and/or faith. I have always believed life is to be lived for God’s glory, not for someone else’s determination of what God’s glory and love is. You know inside if you are doing this. So do it: Live your life for God.
As I see it, it is NOT for us to "argue" over grace verses faith or whether or not we need to do X to remain in Him...it is ours to seek God with all we are and Him only and in that put our trust. End of the story or the beginning of the story depending on your pov. When we seek God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and Him alone, He will show us everything else we need in our lives and since His authority if final, that is all we need.
That being said, there are ways to know if we have yet arrived at the point in which we are assured of our salvation and that way is the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. There is a huge list of things that the HS does for the believer, the short version is the fruit of the spirit and if that is an ever growing thing then it testifies to the work of the HS. That being said, there are words there and many do not understand, for example the Love there is agape and it is nothing at all like world Love. So it is seeking God with our minds to learn what those things mean so that we can identify them in our lives.
There are lots of ways God works in our lives, our desire and empowerment to be without sin is one, of course we grow more like Christ, so that does NOT mean we are suddenly without any sin...but maybe that is another topic.
So maybe this post is not complete without an example of something God can do that we cannot without His power.
A little over 10 years ago, we suddenly lost our son to a freak swimming accident. He was the glue so to speak of the kids and each of the other kids had something serious that happened along about the same time, causing them to run from God in different ways, and us in the process...in essence we lost all of our kids to one degree or other when our son died...and that is all I will say about that at this time. But, going back to the first few days of our sons death. There was a man from the church who accused us of killing our son for believing in the trinity. Here we were in deep grief, shock, trying to keep the kids together, sending our eldest back to war the day after the funeral, etc. and this guy feels justified to accuse us of bringing God's judgement on ourselves through God killing our son because we had a wrong belief about God...(wrong meaning not matching his belief) Every fiber of our beings wanted to lash out and destroy or at least hurt that man as badly as he hurt us.
Well, as it so happened we didn't see him for a few weeks, when we did, it was in a local store. My husband almost came to blows with the man in the middle of the store. From the worlds pov that would have been just...but God has a different plan, a different form of justice that He wants us to adhere to, one that is NOT in man to do without the power of the HS. So in those moment, I asked God to show me HOW to LOVE this man, my enemy that did so much harm and destruction to our family. While still in the depths of grief and pain that he inflicted, the HS in me calmed me and I was able to talk to the man till he confessed he was wrong. He never tried to reconcile (he is dead now) but he did confess he was wrong and that day I still marvel at how God worked through me to do what was NOT in me to do. My husband btw will tell you that that day he failed to trust God to Love that man through him.
The working of the HS in our lives is the guarantee of salvation (passages if needed but common so not thinking they are needed) and it is when HE does things through us that are NOT possible in the flesh that we know, that we, have done what it takes to have assurance of salvation whether that is faith alone or grace alone or a combination of all these things that come to us when we SEEK Him with all we are and all we ever hope to be.
Post by: guest116 on October 17, 2020, 02:07:22 pm
All that said the just of what you said I find some I am not in agreement with as I am not fully understanding. The foundation of what you say, I find make sense. My issues has always been we as people of God have found various ways to get wrapped up in the details and to argue, disagree or in some way to come to a conclusion that the way we learned is the "Only" way to salvation, to God's grace to have proper faith. That is not what Jesus was about and all of us who have taken the journey to learn and understand his teachings.
Like I had said, it seems we all have chosen a position of what we believe God wants us to do for Salvation and most believe they have it right. So times I wonder if the true Salvation is that we find a way to seek Salvation in his Glory and in his holiness and the rest is just static noise. Just a thought and only that.
Thank you lori for answering and you have provided me with things to think on and to look into.
Post by: guest24 on October 17, 2020, 04:20:21 pm
I struggle with others casting dispersion on anyone's belief especially at a time of grief. That was not taught in Chaplains school, in seminary or any other place. We were taught that in times of grief and stress it is God's love and embrace that is needed, addressing anything in a corrective nature is a CONVERSATION (not an accusation) for another time once you help them through that time. So color me shocked and appalled even if it worked out. It was and still is people like him that drove me away and causes me great distress now.I find myself smiling in agreement throughout your response. to that point, let me share how I came to Christ.
All that said the just of what you said I find some I am not in agreement with as I am not fully understanding. The foundation of what you say, I find make sense. My issues has always been we as people of God have found various ways to get wrapped up in the details and to argue, disagree or in some way to come to a conclusion that the way we learned is the "Only" way to salvation, to God's grace to have proper faith. That is not what Jesus was about and all of us who have taken the journey to learn and understand his teachings.
Like I had said, it seems we all have chosen a position of what we believe God wants us to do for Salvation and most believe they have it right. So times I wonder if the true Salvation is that we find a way to seek Salvation in his Glory and in his holiness and the rest is just static noise. Just a thought and only that.
Thank you lori for answering and you have provided me with things to think on and to look into.
At about six years old, my life was so out of control that I knew I would never make it if something or someone didn't step in. One night as I was "dreaming" of never waking up or if I did wake up, my family would be gone, I came to the conclusion that there had to be a creator since this world couldn't just happen. If there was a creator, He/She/They/It would not create something greater than He is and if nothing is greater, then all I needed in order to survive was to become one with the creator whomever that was....that night I prayed to a God I didn't know, that if I was right, would He/She/It become so much a part of me that it was impossible to tell where He began and I ended. From that point on, God started teaching me about Him and my need to reconcile with Him (I didn't even know there was such a thing as sin at the time) etc.
Some years later I was sewing when my sister came in and laid on my back. I asked her to move and she refused. I told her to move and she refused. I took hold of her arms and set her off me. She went running to my father crying that I scratched her and showed him an old wound that was healing. My father went nuts and took his belt and beat me for scratching my sister (which I did not do). But you see, that day, the belt never touched me. There was no sting from it's contact nor welts from it hitting me. That day, Christ literally stood between me and the belt that was directed at me. It was then that I took time to look back and though my situation hadn't changed, God was working in my life and took a kid that shouldn't have made it and caused her to thrive.
So...all that to say, that you are right, a lot of it is about our experiences. My experience tells me that
Jeremiah 29:13
King James Version
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
is true and the details He will work out so just trust Him
Post by: guest116 on October 18, 2020, 07:57:27 pm
KJV Bible Verses from the Book of Luke
Chapter 14
14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
14:2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
14:4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
14:6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
14:8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
14:9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
14:22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Post by: patrick jane on October 20, 2020, 12:04:04 am
Okay, I am going out on a limb and hope it starts a conversation and not a conflict. I have heard and read about salvation. There is salvation through Grace alone, there is Salvation through Faith alone and there is Salvation through both Faith and Grace. All of the reformers appear, to the best research I can do, to base their salvation theory’s on Augustine's writings on Paul or from Paul’s writings alone.Excellent. As I read this I was following and my mind went back to 2nd grade at St. George. I used to argue for once saved always saved but that defies common sense actually. I now believe salvation is a process and enduring with obedience is key. Keeping the faith and not being shaken from the glorious gospel of Christ.
I struggle with this. You see, I have no idea what God will ultimately do. I am not one to assume based on 2000 years old inspired writings nor presume they still apply as originally intended since they were not intended for humanity to become what it has. That is my internal battle.
As I see it, no one, absolutely no one can speak for or to what God will do with or to us as our spirit/soul passes on. We have all made assumptions on the importance of Grace and Faith. We even make assumptions and arguments on what each of those means. So in deep reflection and prayer, I came to the only answer I can come to and works for me and how I understand all of this.
Live your life in such a way that you leave no doubt to God your holiness, grace, and faith is/was according to his word. That way you remove worry about how others interpret and the argument over salvation because of grace and/or faith. I have always believed life is to be lived for God’s glory, not for someone else’s determination of what God’s glory and love is. You know inside if you are doing this. So do it: Live your life for God.
So, one might say well it is a lifelong process. . . . But what of those whose lives are cut short? I agree with you that we can't say definitively what God will do with each and every person/soul on an individual basis. I believe God must examine each of us as He does throughout our lives, and that each person's Judgement is unique and detailed. The Holy Bible is a book of details, after all.
God can easily place us all one by one at the Judgement Seat Of Christ and in an instant He knows every detail of ever thought and action and motivation, every idle thought and hurtful word and every good thing as well. I realized this at the age of seven and I had a question for the priests and nuns.
I concluded that every person is different and must be judged according to their own thoughts, words and actions because I knew that God knows all things back then. At that young age I decided that there must be counter that God uses so naturally I wanted to know exactly how many sins gets you to hell !!!
I thought well, I just need to stay under that ultimate number of sins that sends a person to hell. ;D :D Kids, I tell ya. I was on to something though.
Post by: guest116 on October 20, 2020, 03:22:43 pm
Based on what I am seeing we are at an epoch again where someone will come forward and led us into a new direction in Christianity. The problem I have is that it is going to be two people or groups and in two different directions. This is dangerous for Christianity’s survival. I hope and pray I am wrong.
Just a humble opinion and observation
Post by: guest116 on October 28, 2020, 08:52:59 pm
I am just courious.
Post by: guest8 on October 28, 2020, 09:42:47 pm
How many know who Philo is and why he matters in biblical studies?
I am just courious.
I have read some of His works.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on October 29, 2020, 12:11:32 am
Let me start with the question of what two new testament books were written for the purpose of counter Philo's writing and influence on the progress of Christianity?
Post by: guest116 on November 01, 2020, 09:39:42 pm
Post by: guest8 on November 02, 2020, 07:21:35 pm
The two books in the New Testament specifically written to counter the writings and beliefs of Philo are Hebrews and Colossians. Those in the early movement of Christianity were so bothered by his writings and his attempt to bringGreek and Latin influences into the teachings of Jesus they felt compelled to write a complete book of response to his philosophy.
Philo, it seems to have had a lot to say about everything especially the Bible.
Post by: guest116 on November 02, 2020, 11:25:21 pm
Amazing how a thousand years (40 CE for Philo's death to 430ish CE for Augustine or 1270ish for Aquinas) can change viewpoints on this point.
If I tried to write a theology opus that blended Spurgeon, Wesley, and Erasmus I would be shouted out from every corner of the globe. The times how they have changed.
Post by: guest116 on November 17, 2020, 12:16:37 pm
The account describes how Jesus recognized Zacchaeus for exactly who he was – a lost sinner in need of a Savior. Jesus’ response lets us see how God’s grace worked in Zacchaeus to lead him from idle curiosity to repentance, conversion, and the making of restitution.
The story emphasizes the fact that such a conversion can only result from a person’s fully receiving the love, acceptance, and grace of a merciful Lord. It also demonstrates the fact that nobody is beyond the possibility of conversion.
We need to accept the Divine invitation to repentance. We are all sinners to a greater or lesser degree. Jesus is inviting each one of us to total conversion today by means of this Gospel lesson. Let us remember that Jesus loves us, in spite of our ugly thoughts, broken promises, and sullied ideals, our lack of prayer, and of Faith, our resentments, and our lusts. So, let us confess to Him all our weaknesses and sins, repenting, and ask Him trustfully for his Mercy.
Post by: guest116 on November 21, 2020, 05:03:58 pm
Today’s feast celebrates an important truth about Mary: From the beginning of her life, she was dedicated to God, given over to God’s purposes. Because of her dedication to God from an early age, she was called by God to become a greater temple than the magnificent temple in Jerusalem.
If the temple in Jerusalem was the house of God, the place where God was believed to be present in a special way, Mary became the house of the Lord in an even greater way, because she carried the Lord in her womb until she give birth to him. God came to dwell in her, through Jesus, because she was open to God’s presence from the earliest years of her life.
She is the prime example of the group that Jesus refers to in today’s gospel as those “who do the will of my Father in heaven.” Today’s feast celebrates the fact that from her childhood Mary did the will of God, and was therefore ready to become the temple of God’s Son at the time of God’s choosing.
We too are called to do the will of the Father in heaven so that we too can become temples of the Lord, people who carry Lord’s presence to others. Writing to the church in Corinth, Paul says, “Do you not know that you are God’s temple?” We ask Mary to pray for us now so that we may always do the will of the Father and so become temples of God as she was.
Post by: guest8 on November 21, 2020, 05:11:48 pm
Borrowed this from church wife goes to. I liked it so sharing.
Today’s feast celebrates an important truth about Mary: From the beginning of her life, she was dedicated to God, given over to God’s purposes. Because of her dedication to God from an early age, she was called by God to become a greater temple than the magnificent temple in Jerusalem.
If the temple in Jerusalem was the house of God, the place where God was believed to be present in a special way, Mary became the house of the Lord in an even greater way, because she carried the Lord in her womb until she give birth to him. God came to dwell in her, through Jesus, because she was open to God’s presence from the earliest years of her life.
She is the prime example of the group that Jesus refers to in today’s gospel as those “who do the will of my Father in heaven.” Today’s feast celebrates the fact that from her childhood Mary did the will of God, and was therefore ready to become the temple of God’s Son at the time of God’s choosing.
We too are called to do the will of the Father in heaven so that we too can become temples of the Lord, people who carry Lord’s presence to others. Writing to the church in Corinth, Paul says, “Do you not know that you are God’s temple?” We ask Mary to pray for us now so that we may always do the will of the Father and so become temples of God as she was.
while I agree with you on most all of it, this statement you made:"We ask Mary to pray for us now so that we may always do the will of the Father and so become temples of God as she was."
goes too far and is not biblical. Praying to Mary is praying to another other than GOD.........not a good thing to do.......It is one of the things that will condemn most of those in the RCC theology.
Blade
Blade
Post by: guest116 on November 21, 2020, 05:15:48 pm
Post by: patrick jane on November 28, 2020, 10:45:56 pm
Post by: guest116 on November 29, 2020, 12:00:10 am
So yeah you are absolutely right
Post by: guest116 on November 29, 2020, 12:24:46 am
Post by: guest8 on November 29, 2020, 05:34:01 pm
Food for thought. If God did not forgive sinners, heaven would be a very empty lonely place.I agree
Post by: guest8 on November 29, 2020, 05:42:09 pm
Hasn't there been more than 2,000 years of silence from God now?Yes, but!...the four hundred years of silence was between two time where GOD/Jesus was active. One can look at the Bible as a History Book and this 400 years of history was thought to be left out. It was not...
From the time of Jesus' ascension tlll now there has been plenty of writers who recorded every bit of history as it unfolded. Also, this silent years are open ended yet, even a overall history of the Gentiles and the Jewish people is also written in the Bible.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on November 29, 2020, 08:36:26 pm
If you are using that viewpoint, then it is easy to see how come they call it silent. However, if you look at all of the various books of the bibles and the apocrhypha you can easily see they were not silent, just that the compilers of the books making up the bible do not feel that there were inspired works being shared by God during that time, therefore, it is silent.
Just my thoughts.
Post by: guest8 on November 30, 2020, 07:08:25 pm
I think a lot of how you look at what is called the years of silence has to do with the individual's viewpoint of what activity means coming from God and Jesus. While we continue to see their daily miracles big and small and the grace they give and the lessons they provide, I am thinking, and this is just me, that the THeologians and Religions Scholars are meaning a more direct involvement.
If you are using that viewpoint, then it is easy to see how come they call it silent. However, if you look at all of the various books of the bibles and the apocrhypha you can easily see they were not silent, just that the compilers of the books making up the bible do not feel that there were inspired works being shared by God during that time, therefore, it is silent.
Just my thoughts.
the silent years I was speaking of is from the OT to the NT. The time in question is the time from Alexander's death until the writing of the NT (except Rev). with brings us another 63-64 years after 1 AD. Thus the 400 silent years is given in Daniel's chapter 11:5-35...
There was so much that happened during this 400 years and yet nothing in the bible except for Daniel 11 is said.
This is what I was speaking of...Mark, apologize I did not specify in the first post.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on November 30, 2020, 07:16:24 pm
Post by: guest8 on December 01, 2020, 08:43:39 am
I poorly worded my response Blade. I was trying to explain why I thought they called them silent years even so much was going on. I was pretty sure I understood what you meant, but the clarification confirmed it.
thanks
Blade
Post by: guest116 on December 10, 2020, 12:20:12 pm
This terminology was coined by Sigmund Freud. He based on one of Ernst Crawley’s early works. It has since found its way into philosophy, political science, and religious studies to explain specific types of behaviors. What is this and how does it apply to religion you ask?
Let first look at how this is defined. It is easiest to define it as the in-fighting between like-minded groups that share similar ideas in order to distinguish themselves. It was originally proposed as a way to show the difference in individuals, egos, one’s personal goals, and feelings. It has been applied over time from the individual to groups, organizations, and even beliefs. This is oversimplified, but it will work for this brief writing.
In the last year, I have experienced and seen this concept of behavior act itself out. I have always searched for a way to explain it. Recently a professor from a religious studies program and I were discussing the modern Christian movement and the traditional church. He brought up this to explain what is causing the friction.
He gave this example: I and him agree on everything in our beliefs except one small but salient point. Salient to each of us as we disagree on it. Now we are passionate about this small difference. We both take a stand. Our ego and our feelings are on the line in our minds. We both passionately believe we are right and the other is wrong. At first, it is a gentle ribbing. But, our egos keep getting offended so it escalates, maybe too polite insults. It just keeps going from there to the point of heated hatred. We still agree on everything but that one small point. We just chose to dig in on that point and was willing to let it rule over everything else, including common sense and willingness to agree to disagree on something small, minor, and not of any consequence compared to all that we agree on.
Now take this to a larger scale, a church or politics. I am going to use church because politics are way too sensitive at this writing to even use as an example. Now imagine a church that has a sister church. They both agree on everything in their dogma and rituals. Then one day a new pastor takes over and one little thing he starts doing differently. Nothing major. It does not change anything in the dogma or rituals, but it is different. Very minor. The Church members like the change so they share the news or the change. The other church is offended. At first, it is quiet mutterings. Then the Pastor starts to bring it up as how their church is now in a better position as they did not make changes. This escalates and now you have two hostile churches.
This is how reformations happen, how new denominations happen, and how religious wars have started.
Next time you find yourself focused on something minor and fixated on making it a point to argue over, think about this simple but dangerous contextual thinking pattern.
Post by: guest116 on December 15, 2020, 07:26:27 am
As we draw to the end of this first part of the Advent season, we are called to reflect on our response to doing God’s will. It is easy to say “yes” to God, but it is harder to actually do what God asks of us. On the other side of the coin, there is hope for us who have sinned and had said “no” to the Lord God. We can still change our ways and begin to more fully respond to God by doing what we know is being asked of us.
We need to lead a responsible Christian life, saying “yes” to God. We should become men and women who profess our Faith in word and deed, knowing that, the Christian way lies in performance, not just promise, and the mark of a Christian is obedience, graciously and courteously given.
Post by: patrick jane on December 15, 2020, 08:02:47 am
Post by: guest116 on December 24, 2020, 04:23:56 pm
God has worked His wonders in her. Joseph knows that this is the child of his dream, the child that the angel told him would come. So Mary and Joseph gazed at their child, overwhelmed that this child was the Son of the Most High. They gazed at Him with wonder, with reverence, with veneration, with awe.
Then the shepherds came. They had heard about this child. They came not just to see a baby, but to witness the fulfillment of the angel’s message. For today in the city of David, a savior has been born for you who is Christ and Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find an infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.
Jesus was born, and everything changed. Mankind was no longer be in the grips of evil. The devil would be defeated through the sacrificial love of the one born in Bethlehem. Pride would be defeated with humility, disobedience with obedience, and hatred with love.
Just as Mary and Joseph look at their infant and know that their lives have to change, and just as the shepherds looked at the infant in the manger knowing that somehow through this child the world was changing, so we look at the baby in the manger and agree, “Everything must change. We are Christians. We must walk in the Presence of the Lord.
Everything must change in our lives. We need to be the people who value the spiritual over the material. We need to join the Lord in creating a new culture, one where the work of the Kingdom takes precedence over the work of the world. We need to be kind. We need to be loving. We need to be Christian.
Mother Teresa, St. Teresa of Calcutta, summed this up in a beautiful prayer she would say every day:
Dear Jesus, help me to spread your fragrance everywhere I go. Flood my soul with your Spirit and love. Penetrate and possess my whole being so utterly that all my life may only be a radiance of your life.
Post by: guest8 on December 24, 2020, 06:50:34 pm
As Mary and Joseph gaze on their child lying in the manger. They are filled with wonder at the beauty of this new creation. But they are not just filled with wonder. They are also filled with awe. Mary knows that the child came from God, from the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.
God has worked His wonders in her. Joseph knows that this is the child of his dream, the child that the angel told him would come. So Mary and Joseph gazed at their child, overwhelmed that this child was the Son of the Most High. They gazed at Him with wonder, with reverence, with veneration, with awe.
Then the shepherds came. They had heard about this child. They came not just to see a baby, but to witness the fulfillment of the angel’s message. For today in the city of David, a savior has been born for you who is Christ and Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find an infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.
Jesus was born, and everything changed. Mankind was no longer be in the grips of evil. The devil would be defeated through the sacrificial love of the one born in Bethlehem. Pride would be defeated with humility, disobedience with obedience, and hatred with love.
Just as Mary and Joseph look at their infant and know that their lives have to change, and just as the shepherds looked at the infant in the manger knowing that somehow through this child the world was changing, so we look at the baby in the manger and agree, “Everything must change. We are Christians. We must walk in the Presence of the Lord.
Everything must change in our lives. We need to be the people who value the spiritual over the material. We need to join the Lord in creating a new culture, one where the work of the Kingdom takes precedence over the work of the world. We need to be kind. We need to be loving. We need to be Christian.
Mother Teresa, St. Teresa of Calcutta, summed this up in a beautiful prayer she would say every day:
Dear Jesus, help me to spread your fragrance everywhere I go. Flood my soul with your Spirit and love. Penetrate and possess my whole being so utterly that all my life may only be a radiance of your life.
thank you Mark
Blade
Post by: guest116 on January 03, 2021, 12:08:19 am
HOW DID THE BIBLE COME IN EXISTENCE?
Clive Fernandes
In the one-hundred-year period extending roughly from AD 50 to 150, a number of documents began to circulate among the churches, including epistles, gospels, memoirs, apocalypses, homilies, and collections of teachings. While some of these documents were apostolic in origin, others drew upon the tradition the apostles and ministers of the word had utilized in their individual missions.
For more than 300 years of Christianity, there was no definitive compilation yet into a single book of these ancient documents like what is known to the world at present. From the beginning it was expected that certain of these documents would be read in the public gatherings of the church, though there were disputes and questions over the authenticity of certain documents like the Letter to the Hebrews, Letter of James, Second Letter of Peter, Second and Third Letters of John, Letter of Jude and the Revelation, known as the Antilegomena. At that time, these materials were accepted by some local churches and others did not. However, because of the increase in the amount of documents being circulated (whether authentic or not), the Church found it necessary to discern and choose which of these materials are inspired by the Holy Spirit. How was it done? Below is the timeline of the compilation of the Holy Bible:
ca. 285-132 BC: The translation of the Old Testament books from Hebrew to Greek known as Septuagint (LXX) by the 70 Jewish scholars for the Jews in Diaspora in Alexandria. This is the Old Testament version used by the apostles and early Christians.
50-150 AD: The writing of the New Testament books and the circulation of other apocryphal documents.
96 AD: Some letters of Paul were known to Clement I, bishop of Rome, together with some form of the "words of Jesus"; but while Clement valued these highly, he did not regard them as "Scripture" ("graphe"), a term he reserved for the Septuagint.
100 AD: The hypothetical Council of Jamnia, held in Yavneh, was a Jewish council at which the canon of the Hebrew Bible had been finalized. It was proposed to have excluded the seven books of the Old Testament which are part of its Greek version, the Septuagint. These books are regarded by the Church as inspired and are known as the deuterocanonical.
130-140 AD: Marcion of Sinope, a bishop of Asia Minor who went to Rome and was later excommunicated for his views, was the first of record to propose a definitive, exclusive, unique canon of Christian scriptures. He taught that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the Old Testament, and Abba, the kind father of the New Testament. Marcion eliminated the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he was anti-Semitic, kept from the New Testament only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke's gospel (he deleted references to Jesus' Jewishness). His gospel is called the Gospel of the Lord.
145-163 AD: Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist, mentioned the "memoirs of the apostles", which Christians called "gospels" and which were regarded as on par with the Old Testament. In his works, distinct references are found to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy.
160 AD: Tatian the Assyrian, an early Christian theologian, composed a single harmonized "Gospel" by weaving the contents of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John together along with events present in none of these texts. The narrative mainly follows the chronology of John. This is called the Diatessaron ["(Harmony) Through Four"] and it became the official Gospel text of the Syriac church, centered in Edessa. He rejected Paul's Letters and Acts of the Apostles
185 AD: Irenaeus, bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, in his Adversus Haereses, denounced various early Christian groups that used only one gospel, such as Marcionism which used only Marcion's version of Luke, or the Ebionites which seem to have used an Aramaic version of Matthew, as well as groups that used more than four gospels, such as the Valentinians (A.H. 1.11). Irenaeus declared that there can't be either more or fewer than four, presenting as logic the analogy of the four corners of the earth and the four winds (3.11.8).
ca. 200 AD: Origen Adamantius, early Christian theologian, accepted 22 canonical books of the Hebrews plus Maccabees plus the four Gospels but Paul "did not so much as write to all the churches that he taught; and even to those to which he wrote he sent but a few lines."
ca. 200 AD: The periphery of the canon was not yet determined as of this time. According to one list, the Muratorian Canon (named after Fr. Ludovico Antonio Muratori who discovered it at the Ambrosian Library in Milan in the 18th century), which was compiled at Rome, the New Testament was comprised of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter. Each "city-church" (region) still has its own Canon, which is a list of books approved for reading at Mass (Liturgy).
ca. 215 AD: Titus Flavius Clemens (Clement of Alexandria), an early Christian theologian, made use of an open canon. In addition to books that did not make it into the final 27-book New Testament but which had local canonicity (Barnabas, Didache, I Clement, Revelation of Peter, the Shepherd, the Gospel according to the Hebrews), he also used the Gospel of the Egyptians, Preaching of Peter, Traditions of Matthias, Sibylline Oracles, and the Oral Gospel. He did, however, prefer the four church gospels to all others, although he supplemented them freely with apocryphal gospels. He was the first to treat non-Pauline letters of the apostles (other than II Peter) as scripture-he accepted I Peter, I and II John, and Jude as scripture.
ca. 300 AD: The Alogi, an early Christian group, rejected the Gospel of John (and possibly also Revelation and the Epistles of John) as either not apostolic or as written by the Gnostic Cerinthus or as not compatible with the Synoptic Gospels.
300 A.D. The Old Syriac was a translation of the New Testament documents from the Greek into Syriac. In the Coptic Versions, Coptic was spoken in four dialects in Egypt and the materials were translated into each of these four dialects.
ca. 303 AD: The making of what is currently known Codex Claromontanus canon (named after the town of Clermont-en-Beauvaisis in France from where it was procured by the Calvinist scholar Theodore Bezza in the late 16th century), a page found inserted into a copy of the Epistles of Paul and Hebrews, has the Old Testament, plus Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, 1–2,4 Maccabees, and the New Testament, plus 3rd Corinthians, Acts of Paul, Apocalypse of Peter, Barnabas, and Hermas, but missing Philippians, 1–2 Thessalonians, and Hebrews.
330 AD: Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea, recorded his own New Testament canon which includes the holy quaternion of the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the epistles of Paul, the epistle of John, the epistle of Peter, the Apocalypse of John, the epistle of James and that of Jude, also the second epistle of Peter, and the second and third epistles of John.
331 AD: Roman Emperor Constantine I commissioned Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea, to deliver fifty compiled Scriptures for the Church of Constantinople. Athanasius (Apostolic Constitution 4) recorded Alexandrian scribes around 340 AD preparing the Canon for Constans. Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are among of these ancient compilations together with the Peshitta and Codex Alexandrinus.
350 AD: Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem, included in his Catechetical Lectures (4.36) the Gospels (4), Acts, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude, and Paul's epistles (14), but listed the Gospel of Thomas as pseudepigrapha.
360 AD: The making of the so-called Cheltenham/Mommsen Canon (named after German classical scholar Theodor Mommsen who discovered it in 1886 from a 10th-century manuscript belonging to the library of Thomas Phillips at Cheltenham, England), which contains the 24-book Old Testament and 24-book New Testament that provides syllable and line counts but omits Hebrews, Jude and James, and questions the epistles of John and Peter.
363 AD: The Synod of Laodicea was one of the first synods that set out to judge which books were to be read aloud in churches. It canonized 22-book Old Testament and 26-book New Testament (excludes Revelation).
367 AD: In his Festal letter, Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the 27-book New Testament canon, and he used the word "canonized" (kanonizomena) in regards to them. He also listed a 22-book Old Testament and 7 books not in the canon but to be read: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas.
374-377 AD: Epiphanius, bishop of Salamis, listed the following canon in his Panarion 76.5: Gospels (4), Paul's epistles (13), Acts, James, Peter, 1-3 John, Jude, Revelation, Wisdom, Sirach.
380 AD: The redactor of the Apostolic Constitutions attributed a canon to the Twelve Apostles themselves as the 85th of his list of such apostolic decrees: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter; three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Acts of the Apostles.
382 AD: The Synod of Rome (presided by Pope Damasus) started the ball rolling for the definition of a universal canon for all city-churches. It listed the New Testament books in their present number and order.
ca. 382 AD: Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus (Jerome), a Roman presbyter, was commissioned by Damasus I, bishop of Rome, to revise the Vetus Latina ("Old Latin") collection of Biblical texts in Latin then in use by the Church. Once published, it was widely adopted and eventually eclipsed the Vetus Latina and, by the 13th century, was known as the "versio vulgata" (the "version commonly-used") or, more simply, in Latin as vulgata or in Greek as ß?????ta ("Vulgate").
385 AD: Gregory of Nazianzus, bishop of Constantinople, produced a canon in verse which agreed with that of his contemporary Athanasius, other than placing the "Catholic Epistles" after the Pauline Epistles and omitting Revelation. This list was ratified by the Synod of Trullo of 692 AD.
inter 386-388 AD: John Chrysostom, bishop of Constantinople, was the first (in his Homilies on Matthew) to use the Greek phrase "ta biblia" (the books) to describe both the Old and New Testaments together.
393 AD: The Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa accepted the present canon of the New Testament.
394 AD: Amphilochius, bishop of Iconium, in his poem Iambics for Seleucus, nephew of St. Olympias, discussed debate over the canonical inclusion of a number of books, and almost certainly rejects the later Epistles of Peter and John, Jude, and Revelation.
397 AD: The third Synod of Carthage, which refined the canon for the Western Church, sent it to Innocent I, bishop of Rome, for ratification. Its list is similar to the present canon of scriptures. In the East, the canonical process was hampered by a number of schisms.
ca 405 AD: Innocent I, bishop of Rome, in ratification of the canon defined by the Synod of Carthage, sent the list of the sacred books to Exsuperius, Gallic bishop of Toulouse, which was identical with that of the Ecumenical Council of Trent.
419 AD: The fourth Synod of Carthage reaffirmed the canon defined by the previous synod in its present number and order (similar to the Ecumenical Council of Trent).
551-62 AD: Flavius Magnus Aurelius Cassiodorus Senator, Roman statesman and writer, in his Institutiones Divinarum et Saecularium Litterarum, omitted 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude and Hebrews.
787 AD: The Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, which adopted the canon of Carthage. At this point, both the Latin West and the Greek / Byzantine East had the same canon. However, the non-Greek, Monophysite and Nestorian Churches of the East (the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Syrians, the Armenians, the Syro-Malankars, the Chaldeans, and the Malabars) were still left out. But these Churches came together in agreement, in 1442A.D., in Florence.
1199 AD: Innocent III, bishop of Rome, banned unauthorized versions of the Bible as a reaction to the Cathar and Waldensian heresies. The synods of Toulouse and Tarragona (in 1234 AD) outlawed possession of such renderings. But there is evidence of some vernacular translations still being permitted while others were being scrutinized.
ca. 1245 AD: Stephen Langton, archbishop of Canterbury, and Hugo Cardinal de Sancto-Caro, dominican titular bishop of Santa Sabina, developed different schemas for systematic division of the Bible. It was the system of Archbishop Langton on which the modern chapter divisions are based.
1380 AD: The first English translation of the Bible was by John Wycliffe, the founder of the anti-Catholic group named Lollardy. He translated the Bible into English from the Latin Vulgate. This was a translation from a translation and not a translation from the original Hebrew and Greek. Wycliffe was forced to translate from the Latin Vulgate because he did not know Hebrew or Greek.
1442 AD: AD : At the Ecumenical Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the 27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible which Damasus I, bishop of Rome, had published a thousand years earlier. So, by 1439 AD, all orthodox branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. This is 100 years before the Reformation.
1448 AD: The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a French Jewish philosopher and controversialist by the name of Isaac Nathan ben Kalonymus (Mordacai Nathan).
1456 AD: Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg, a German publisher and inventor of a movable type printing, produced the first printed Bible in Latin. Printing revolutionized the way books were made. From now on books could be published in great numbers and at a lower cost.
ca. 1500 AD: The first person to divide New Testament chapters into verses was an Italian Dominican biblical scholar Santi Pagnini, but his system was never widely adopted.
1514 AD: The Greek New Testament was printed for the first time by Erasmus. He based his Greek New Testament from only five Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dated only as far back as the twelfth century. With minor revisions, Erasmus' Greek New Testament came to be known as the Textus Receptus or the "received texts."
1522 AD: Polyglot Bible, in which group of editors was led by Diego López de Zúñiga and funded by Jiménez Cardinal de Cisneros, was published. The Old Testament was in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin and the New Testament in Latin and Greek. Erasmus used the Polyglot to revise later editions of his New Testament. Tyndale made use of the Polyglot in his translation on the Old Testament into English which he did not complete because he died in 1534 AD.
1536 AD: In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Martin Luther, a former Catholic monk and priest who became the primary figure of the Protestant Reformation, removed four New Testament books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix treating them as less than canonical as well as the seven Old Testament books (Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch plus the additional texts in Esther and Daniel) labelling them as apocryphal.
1546 AD: At the Ecumenical Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373 AD, 787 AD and 1442 AD. At Trent, the Church of Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point, closing it for good.
1551 AD: Robert Estienne, a French printer and classical scholar, created an alternate numbering in his edition of the Greek New Testament which was also used in his 1553 publication of the Bible in French. Estienne's system of division was widely adopted, and it is this system which is found in almost all modern Bibles.
1566 AD: Sixtus of Siena, a dominican theologian, coined the term "deuterocanonical" to describe the seven Old Testament books that had not been accepted as canonical by the Protestants but which appeared in the Septuagint; and defined for the Roman Catholics of the terms "protocanonical" and the ancient term "apocryphal" in his work Bibliotheca Sancta ex Præcipuis Catholicæ Ecclesiæ Auctoribus Collecta (Venice 1566).
16th century to present AD: The HOLY BIBLE composed of 73 canonical books (46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament) based on the infallible decree of the holy Catholic Church. Thus, the great Tridentine Council declared: "But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema."
The timeline of the development of the biblical canon is the living proof that the holy Bible was not handed down by Christ to His apostles as it is. The Bible did not even come down from the heavens as what it looks like at present. The truth is:
IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO CHOSE WHICH BOOKS ARE INSPIRED AND COMPILED THEM INTO A SINGLE BOOK WHICH SHE CALLED THE BIBLE. THUS, IT IS THE BIBLE WHICH CAME FROM THE CHURCH AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
However, despite this historical fact, the holy Church did not claim authorship on those divine scriptures. For her, "God is the author of Sacred Scripture" (CCC 105). And, she added: "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more" (CCC 106).
Remember, "the Christian faith is not a religion of the book but of the Word of God, a word which is not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living" (cf. CCC 108).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus Christ, the Lord, founded a Church and that Church produced the Bible.
Post by: patrick jane on January 04, 2021, 01:46:00 am
Quote
Shoutbox Edit Delete
January 03, 2021, 09:18:16 pm Chaplain Mark Schmidt says: I think it is time we all reset our mindset from We are entitled and we have rights to the We have obligations and we have responsibilities. Once we do that those things we that we were entitled to or had rights to will be given to us by the Lord and no longer taken by man.
Hello Mark, let's talk about your chat comment. I agree for the most part, spiritually yes. As I type, Communism is already here and has been. Mark my words, and God willing that we should live long enough, we will see - The United States Of America will gradually become a socialist/communist government and therefore, nation.
The Covid virus is the opportunity for the global reset that has been planned for decades. The families and hereditary lines of peoples have controlled this fallen world since creation and they plan centuries ahead, decades ahead, generational plans that are continued while holding power and control over the mass population. Especially the Money Changers. Look at history Mark.
There is much more to discuss, but this will give you an idea of the conversations I'd like to have. I can show you that what I say is true, just read my Conspiracy threads and watch, listen and learn. The America we knew all of our lives is gone brother, especially with this blatant and wanton, obvious election fraud. There are 133 million registered voters in the US and Trump got 74 million legitimate votes and probably a few million more than that because of switched or destroyed ballots ELELECTRONICALLY, which is exactly what Dominion Voting Systems does and it has been proven and documented.
So, how did Biden get 83 million votes? Doesn't add up in addition to the literally tens of thousands of other DETAILS and verified fraud, through various means. More of the truth will come out over the next decade about what really took place with this 2020 election. I expect you will shocked and dismayed, unless you believe what you see and hear from CNN, MSNBC, CBS, FOX and the main newspapers with nothing but AP stories and NY Times leftism, which is communism/socialism.
I thank God for the America I grew up in and the country that many multiple thousands of American Soldiers fought and died for to prevent in so many other nations around the earth; Communism.
I know we'd all love to believe that America is doing just fine with this new Administration but reality will tell the tale.
Post by: guest116 on January 04, 2021, 01:56:27 am
Post by: patrick jane on January 04, 2021, 02:14:39 am
I will digest this, but on the surface, I find myself in partial disagreement and I do not like the alternative being offered any more than the one you say we are headed towards. Both are despicable.Thank you brother, I know I might seem very negative in my outlook but I remain very hopeful. Mark, if you get the time I'd like you to watch/listen to this video, specifically the sermon, and tell me what you think. The pastor is in Canada.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnPgCUhLTJE
Post by: patrick jane on January 10, 2021, 07:45:31 pm
Post by: guest8 on January 11, 2021, 09:52:57 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6aIP8dGwJI
Is Mark gone or ?
Blade
Post by: patrick jane on January 11, 2021, 10:58:55 am
No he will be back brother.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6aIP8dGwJI
Is Mark gone or ?
Blade
Post by: guest116 on January 21, 2021, 07:13:45 pm
Post by: guest116 on January 26, 2021, 12:28:58 am
Post by: guest116 on February 05, 2021, 09:31:45 pm
After arriving in Nazareth, Jesus entered the Synagogue to teach, and He taught with an authority that confounded the locals. They said among themselves, “Where did this man get this kind of wisdom ?” They were confused because they knew Jesus. He was the local carpenter’s son. He was Mary’s son, and they knew His other relatives by name.
The primary difficulty was that the townspeople knew Him. They knew where He lived. They knew His family. They knew all about Him. Therefore, they wondered how He could be anything special. How could He now teach? How could He now do miracles? They were astonished, and they allowed that astonishment to turn into doubt, judgment, and criticism.
The same temptation is something we all deal with more than we may realize. It is often easier to admire a stranger from afar than someone we know well. When we hear of someone for the first time who is doing something admirable, it’s easy to join in that admiration. But when we hear good news about someone we know well, we can easily be tempted to jealousy or envy and to be skeptical and even critical.
Often we deal with others in a stereotypical way and label people all too easily. This does not allow us to encounter them in their uniqueness and freshness and we may miss a great deal. God dwells within everyone. We must constantly seek to discover the presence of God all around us, especially in the lives of those whom we know very well. Reflect, today, upon those whom you are familiar with in life, especially your own family.
Post by: guest116 on February 12, 2021, 01:13:54 pm
The healing that occurs in today’s gospel might not be very significant to us or we may just think of it as another miracle that the Lord performed. The method Jesus used to hill this man is still practiced, the Ephphata Rite is a part of the Sacrament of Baptism when the priest symbolically opens the ears and mouth of the person to be baptized to mark the opening of the mind and the heart of the person to receive God into them.
Throughout history disobedience and sin have corrupted us and cloud our judgments, our minds, and hearts. The Lord as He healed the deaf man showed that not only that He could heal us from our physical infirmities but in fact also from our spiritual problems and the root of all evil and suffering. God alone can heal us and forgive us our sins.
Now, as Christians what is our attitude towards the Lord? Is it one of willingness to listen to Him and to welcome Him into our hearts and our minds? Or do we place our desires, our pride, ambition, and ego above our love for the Lord? Let us not repeat the mistakes made by our predecessors, all those who have chosen to follow the Lord and His path?
Let us all turn towards the Lord with a new heart and with a new faith, and let us all appreciate all that He has done for us, welcoming Him into our midst and allowing Him to touch our lives, to heal us, and to make us whole once again, purging from within us all traces of stubbornness and faithlessness. May God bless us all, and be with us always. Amen.
Post by: guest8 on February 12, 2021, 07:03:25 pm
Borrowed from another site with permission. I thought it was interesting.
The healing that occurs in today’s gospel might not be very significant to us or we may just think of it as another miracle that the Lord performed. The method Jesus used to hill this man is still practiced, the Ephphata Rite is a part of the Sacrament of Baptism when the priest symbolically opens the ears and mouth of the person to be baptized to mark the opening of the mind and the heart of the person to receive God into them.
Throughout history disobedience and sin have corrupted us and cloud our judgments, our minds, and hearts. The Lord as He healed the deaf man showed that not only that He could heal us from our physical infirmities but in fact also from our spiritual problems and the root of all evil and suffering. God alone can heal us and forgive us our sins.
Now, as Christians what is our attitude towards the Lord? Is it one of willingness to listen to Him and to welcome Him into our hearts and our minds? Or do we place our desires, our pride, ambition, and ego above our love for the Lord? Let us not repeat the mistakes made by our predecessors, all those who have chosen to follow the Lord and His path?
Let us all turn towards the Lord with a new heart and with a new faith, and let us all appreciate all that He has done for us, welcoming Him into our midst and allowing Him to touch our lives, to heal us, and to make us whole once again, purging from within us all traces of stubbornness and faithlessness. May God bless us all, and be with us always. Amen.
not got no argument with YOUR points...
Blade
Post by: guest116 on February 14, 2021, 09:16:23 pm
Who are the outcasts of our society? Are the outcasts people with AIDS or other terrible illnesses? Are the outcasts the poor of the third world? Are the outcasts the immigrants? Are there outcasts in your family or my family? Is the outcast a son or daughter, brother or sister, or cousin who has embarrassed the family by getting involved with illegal activities or living an immoral lifestyle?
Are we willing to reach out to them? Are we willing to touch the outcast, or are we afraid that we might become unclean? Perhaps, if we resume friendship with that difficult cousin, the rest of our family will have nothing to do with us. Or if we make friends with that person in the office or neighborhood labeled by others as unworthy of anyone’s attention, we also will be rejected. Unclean!
Or if we become advocates for migrants who work hard to send money to their impoverished families, then we will be accused of being aligned with the few bad among them who have done horrible things, some will say to those who reach out to the immigrants, “Unclean!”
The message of our gospel, is that we can reach out to those who are suffering and touch them with the healing power of Jesus Christ. Yes, by doing this we may open ourselves up to insult and attack from those around us. But we have been empowered with the healing touch of Jesus Christ. And that healing touch can conquer the pain around us.
Post by: guest8 on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 pm
A leper approached Jesus with a request, kneeling down as he addressed him. 'If you will to do so, you can cure me.' Moved with pity, Jesus stretched out his hand, touched him and said: 'I do will it. Be cured.'"
Who are the outcasts of our society? Are the outcasts people with AIDS or other terrible illnesses? Are the outcasts the poor of the third world? Are the outcasts the immigrants? Are there outcasts in your family or my family? Is the outcast a son or daughter, brother or sister, or cousin who has embarrassed the family by getting involved with illegal activities or living an immoral lifestyle?
Are we willing to reach out to them? Are we willing to touch the outcast, or are we afraid that we might become unclean? Perhaps, if we resume friendship with that difficult cousin, the rest of our family will have nothing to do with us. Or if we make friends with that person in the office or neighborhood labeled by others as unworthy of anyone’s attention, we also will be rejected. Unclean!
Or if we become advocates for migrants who work hard to send money to their impoverished families, then we will be accused of being aligned with the few bad among them who have done horrible things, some will say to those who reach out to the immigrants, “Unclean!”
The message of our gospel, is that we can reach out to those who are suffering and touch them with the healing power of Jesus Christ. Yes, by doing this we may open ourselves up to insult and attack from those around us. But we have been empowered with the healing touch of Jesus Christ. And that healing touch can conquer the pain around us.
good post Mark.....Its called" going along to get along"
Blade
Post by: guest116 on February 17, 2021, 08:15:31 pm
Post by: patrick jane on March 05, 2021, 07:42:57 am
A leper approached Jesus with a request, kneeling down as he addressed him. 'If you will to do so, you can cure me.' Moved with pity, Jesus stretched out his hand, touched him and said: 'I do will it. Be cured.'"Excellent Mark.
Who are the outcasts of our society? Are the outcasts people with AIDS or other terrible illnesses? Are the outcasts the poor of the third world? Are the outcasts the immigrants? Are there outcasts in your family or my family? Is the outcast a son or daughter, brother or sister, or cousin who has embarrassed the family by getting involved with illegal activities or living an immoral lifestyle?
Are we willing to reach out to them? Are we willing to touch the outcast, or are we afraid that we might become unclean? Perhaps, if we resume friendship with that difficult cousin, the rest of our family will have nothing to do with us. Or if we make friends with that person in the office or neighborhood labeled by others as unworthy of anyone’s attention, we also will be rejected. Unclean!
Or if we become advocates for migrants who work hard to send money to their impoverished families, then we will be accused of being aligned with the few bad among them who have done horrible things, some will say to those who reach out to the immigrants, “Unclean!”
The message of our gospel, is that we can reach out to those who are suffering and touch them with the healing power of Jesus Christ. Yes, by doing this we may open ourselves up to insult and attack from those around us. But we have been empowered with the healing touch of Jesus Christ. And that healing touch can conquer the pain around us.
Post by: patrick jane on March 05, 2021, 07:43:14 am
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/march/conservative-umc-split-postponed-global-methodist-church.html
Conservative United Methodists Plan Breakaway Denomination
The new Global Methodist Church will leave the UMC regardless of the General Conference decision, which has been delayed until 2022.
Conservative United Methodists have chosen a name for the denomination they plan to form if a proposal to split the United Methodist Church is successful: The Global Methodist Church.
The Global Methodist Church unveiled its new name, logo, and website on Monday, days after the United Methodist Church announced it was once again postponing the May 2020 meeting that was set to consider the proposal to split.
That puts the likely launch of the planned denomination at least a year and a half away.
“Over the past year the council members, and hundreds of people who have informed their work, have faithfully and thoughtfully arrived at this point,” the Rev. Keith Boyette, president of the Wesleyan Covenant Association and chair of the Transitional Leadership Council that is guiding the creation of the Global Methodist Church, said in a post on the WCA website.
“They are happy to share with others a wealth of information about a church they believe will be steeped in the lifegiving confessions of the Christian faith.”
The United Methodist Church’s General Conference, its global decision-making body, is now scheduled to meet August 29 to September 6, 2022, at the Minneapolis Convention Center in Minneapolis.
Delegates are expected to take up a proposal to split the denomination called the Protocol of Reconciliation and Grace Through Separation.
The proposal negotiated by 16 United Methodist bishops and advocacy group leaders from across theological divides, would create a new conservative “traditionalist” Methodist denomination—that’s the Global Methodist Church—that would receive $25 million over the next four years. Individual churches and annual conferences could choose to join the new entity; otherwise, they’ll remain in the existing denomination by default.
Calls to split one of the largest denominations in the United States have grown since a 2019 special session of the General Conference approved the so-called Traditional Plan strengthening its bans on the ordination and marriage of LGBTQ United Methodists.
At the time of the 2019 special session, Boyette’s WCA made clear it planned to split from the United Methodist Church if delegates to the special session had not approved Traditional Plan.
On its website, the Global Methodist Church says it similarly would move forward with a split if delegates to the General Conference meeting in 2022 do not approve the proposed protocol — or if support for the protocol wanes in the intervening year and a half.
The website describes the planned denomination as a “new church rooted in Scripture and the historic and life giving teachings of the Christian faith” and emphasizes its desire to be a global church.
It also includes downloadable versions of a proposed Transitional Book of Doctrines and Discipline in multiple languages.
“True to our roots, we’re a patient and methodical people,” Boyette said on the WCA website.
“We want to do our very best to help theologically conservative local churches, laity, and pastors navigate the transitional period as smoothly as possible. And then we look forward to the Global Methodist Church’s convening General Conference where we hope the duly elected delegates will find what we have done to be helpful. It will be their great task and responsibility to discern God’s will and so help all its local churches and people live fully into the body of Christ.”
Already, one group of progressive United Methodists has announced it isn’t waiting for a vote to form its own denomination.
The Liberation Methodist Connexion launched last November with a virtual worship service and introductory presentation. The LMX—which doesn’t expect members to leave their current denominations or faiths to join—stresses action over doctrine and emphasizes the full inclusion of people of all gender expressions and sexual identities, races and ethnicities, mental and physical abilities, sizes and ages.
Post by: guest116 on March 05, 2021, 07:46:18 pm
Post by: guest116 on March 13, 2021, 08:15:48 pm
The thing is, the one lesson that Saint Aquinas knew and rephrased but stated is missing and is hard for mankind to embrace.
"Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all"
Think about this. We all in here have theology at some level of what and who we are. We have all increased our own knowledge and we all enjoy learning. But how many of us say we spend the same amount of time on embracing the meaning of educating our heart - learning to be good people, learning to embrace others and their ideas without judging them against our own ideas. If you are like me and we are all truthful, not a lot of time is spent this way. Just look at the last five years in this country and you can see the majority of us embrace anything other than Jesus's teaching of peace love and harmony (my shorthand version of his teachings).
Just something for you to muse on as you spend your day reading writing and interacting with the rest of humanity.
Post by: guest116 on March 16, 2021, 05:51:32 pm
I am old school and believe if a child is raised in a God-loving, church-going environment with no force to participate. That allows them to ask questions and to learn, they will stay engaged. But I have witnessed each generation after mine pulls further and further away from Church and some abandoning religion altogether. The exception is those that have engaged with getting their religion and church from online new age style Christian base churches. I have watched some of these after I had attended the traditional Church and honestly found no differences in the message or content. The 20agers I watch with when asked about communion stated they go in person once a month for that, the rest of the time this works just fine. This tells me that the Christian Religion needs to evolve in some aspects. While those of us still holding on dearly to our ways we grew up with and are comfortable with, that will not work for the new group coming up. We need to be flexible while still showing the need for traditions. Again it is just my observation and opinion.
Post by: guest116 on March 29, 2021, 04:10:22 pm
“Speak, Lord I am listening”,
Then jotted down what came to mind.
Post by: guest24 on March 30, 2021, 08:07:03 am
Post by: guest116 on March 30, 2021, 04:09:10 pm
Post by: guest116 on April 02, 2021, 08:49:21 pm
So here was my solution for them to try.
Many of the local Churches have meditation Labyrinths located on their property. These are used for many things. I, myself use them to help me think through issues or to recenter. When I am writing I use them to help fight through blocks. So I asked them if they had ever walked a Labyrinth before. Neither had. So I told them this is what I wanted them to do. Go to one of the bigger ones. I gave them the locations. Once they get there to get to the starting point. Face each other, say a prayer together while facing each other and looking into each other eyes. Then tell each other they love them. THen ladies first as they start walking the maze patterned, she states something that she has an issue with. He can not say a word, can not argue or rebut. Then it's his turn. The same applies to her. No rebuttal, just each stating the issues all the way into the center circle. They have to get it all out the negative. I suggested they adjust the pace so everything is out of their system by the time they get to the center.
Once in the center, they were to face each other and hold hands again. They were to thank each other for the honesty, say they love each other again, then say the same prayer from the start. Then start the journey out of the maze pattern. This time though to tell each other all the good things, good memories, and anything positive. He getting to start this time. Once they got done again hold hands facing each other, say they love each other then end with the Lord's prayer.
I told them to do all this early in the morning. Once done go someplace and have a nice breakfast together. They can not bring up anything said at the maze or discussion in any fashion what was said. Talk about anything else. In fact not to say a word on it until the evening so both of them have time to quietly contemplate what was said by the other and reflect on it. Only then should they have a discussion.
I was afraid this might not work but it was at least a shot at a starting point.
That was ten days ago. They told me today Good Friday they had done it this morning and followed through and they feel the results were "Fantastic" as they both feel relief and understanding and feel they can now work through things. The best thing they said this separate from each other in separate text messages. I hope it does work.
Post by: guest24 on April 03, 2021, 10:25:32 am
BTW, we did an interesting study on marriage. Based on the passage in Ephesians 5 that the husband is to love the wife as Christ Loved the church, how did Christ Love the church...? So we laid Isaiah 53 how Christ loved the church, next to Prov. 31 the wife of noble character and looked at how they fit together... a fascinating study that changed our marriage.
For example...Is. 53:1 who has believed our report and to who is the arm of the Lord revealed...Christ loved the church with revelation...Prov. 31:10 Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies....Christ's revelation reveals the wife (churches) value which was enough value to send Him to the cross...
Just an example, a huge deal when you consider that the world tries to strip our (women) value from them.
Post by: patrick jane on April 03, 2021, 06:49:47 pm
Post by: guest116 on April 22, 2021, 10:14:19 pm
He was performing at a wedding. As he was wrapping up his brief sermon to the people about the rites and importance of marriage, he said he decided to go off-script. The following is the best I could transcribe what was on the video he sent.
Ladies and Gentlemen, let me change course here. As you know we members of the clergy like our counseling sessions. I have a total of five I put the bride and groom through, two each individually and one as a couple. I ask a lot of questions to make sure I am comfortable performing the ceremony. During the second individual session with the bride, she said something very profound. Now most all of us here know this is a re-marriage. They were married to each other before. They divorced seven years ago. Of course, my concern is what will make this different this time. Her answer is worth everyone hearing
Let me get it out here, I wrote it down right after she left my office. It struck me as that valuable of an insight.
Her: That is a very good question. Here is how it is for me. We had issues during the last part of our 24-year marriage. We had grown apart and at times even hated on each other. During the seven years apart, I died inside. I died when we signed the divorce papers, I died inside. I felt like I had failed me, I failed him, I failed my kids. It never changed or got better as time passed. Then one particularly down day it dawned on me. I had to die inside to be able to live outside. Once I decided I needed him in my life and I wanted to live on the outside, well, it was like my soul was reborn, reenergize, that it was like springtime in my heart and soul. I made the decision I wanted to live on both the inside and the outside.
Yes, that sounds kind of hokey to some, but look at your partner, look at your family, your kids, and those you are around. Ask yourself, have you, they, made this same decision? Do you want to live on both the inside and outside? Or, are you willing to stay where you are and die a little inside each day as you fail to live on the outside?
Now let's get these two married.
Post by: guest116 on April 23, 2021, 11:28:27 pm
Strikes me as something we all need to remember is time does not favor anyone, he moves at its pace no matter what.
Post by: guest8 on April 24, 2021, 09:18:34 pm
“The future is something which everyone reaches at the rate of sixty minutes an hour, whatever he does, whoever he is.” “The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis ” (1942)
Strikes me as something we all need to remember is time does not favor anyone, he moves at its pace no matter what.
interesting book.
Blade
Post by: guest116 on May 12, 2021, 04:33:30 pm
Who has heard of Manichsrism? Interesting thinking and what little I found online on its theology.
Just curious if anyone else knows of it and your thinking on it from an academic standpoint. I know what most will think from a Christian and religious viewpoint.
Post by: guest8 on May 12, 2021, 07:36:59 pm
Here is a new one for me.
Who has heard of Manichsrism? Interesting thinking and what little I found online on its theology.
Just curious if anyone else knows of it and your thinking on it from an academic standpoint. I know what most will think from a Christian and religious viewpoint.
Mark have a PDF on this subject."Manichaeism: Its sources and influences on western christianity"
Here is the link to this article. I not studied it in depth so I can not give any opinions. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250376439_Manichaeism_Its_Sources_and_Influences_on_Western_Christianity
Enjoy
Blade
Post by: guest116 on May 12, 2021, 08:48:38 pm
Post by: guest116 on July 21, 2021, 01:18:33 am
Post by: guest116 on August 12, 2021, 03:33:20 pm
Are we reading scriptures, the Bible for support for our own agenda, viewpoints, and conclusions? Are we just trying to find something that agrees with us and our thinking? These are questions I have pondered for quite some time now. I have seen a person make a statement that is very negative and can only be called hateful. Then try to twist a single sentence from the Bible to support their statement. This is nothing more than conclusion shopping in the Holy Scriptures. So are you one of those that spend your time in the scriptures looking for something you have already decided, a viewpoint, or in support of your own agenda? OR Do you read the Bible to learn the meaning of the divinely inspired words of God, seeking His guidance, His wisdom, and His love? Do you read the Bible with no pre-conceived viewpoint, no agenda, no desire to support what you have come to believe? These are questions we need to be asking ourselves each time we open the Bible, go to a Church service or any other type of function related to faith. Do not seek God through your own view and eyes of who he is, but rather seek God through the words and the eyes into his heaven. Just my opinion.
Post by: patrick jane on August 12, 2021, 06:01:47 pm
CONCLUSION SHOPPINGCan you be more specific about what was said and which verse they "twisted"?
Are we reading scriptures, the Bible for support for our own agenda, viewpoints, and conclusions? Are we just trying to find something that agrees with us and our thinking? These are questions I have pondered for quite some time now. I have seen a person make a statement that is very negative and can only be called hateful. Then try to twist a single sentence from the Bible to support their statement. This is nothing more than conclusion shopping in the Holy Scriptures. So are you one of those that spend your time in the scriptures looking for something you have already decided, a viewpoint, or in support of your own agenda? OR Do you read the Bible to learn the meaning of the divinely inspired words of God, seeking His guidance, His wisdom, and His love? Do you read the Bible with no pre-conceived viewpoint, no agenda, no desire to support what you have come to believe? These are questions we need to be asking ourselves each time we open the Bible, go to a Church service or any other type of function related to faith. Do not seek God through your own view and eyes of who he is, but rather seek God through the words and the eyes into his heaven. Just my opinion.
Post by: guest116 on August 12, 2021, 07:54:05 pm
CONCLUSION SHOPPINGCan you be more specific about what was said and which verse they "twisted"?
Are we reading scriptures, the Bible for support for our own agenda, viewpoints, and conclusions? Are we just trying to find something that agrees with us and our thinking? These are questions I have pondered for quite some time now. I have seen a person make a statement that is very negative and can only be called hateful. Then try to twist a single sentence from the Bible to support their statement. This is nothing more than conclusion shopping in the Holy Scriptures. So are you one of those that spend your time in the scriptures looking for something you have already decided, a viewpoint, or in support of your own agenda? OR Do you read the Bible to learn the meaning of the divinely inspired words of God, seeking His guidance, His wisdom, and His love? Do you read the Bible with no pre-conceived viewpoint, no agenda, no desire to support what you have come to believe? These are questions we need to be asking ourselves each time we open the Bible, go to a Church service or any other type of function related to faith. Do not seek God through your own view and eyes of who he is, but rather seek God through the words and the eyes into his heaven. Just my opinion.
This is just a general observation from multiple comments and conversations of an extended period. I am not trying to pinpoint one person, one statement or any one thing. I just have noticed this tendency, even in myself. So I voiced an observation that I think we all need to work on.
Post by: patrick jane on August 12, 2021, 08:03:45 pm
I agree, and I try not to fit scripture to coincide with my personal or selfish needs or desires. I try, yet I find myself doing it though not often. I think you mean more about our beliefs and trying to fit scripture to "agree" with our established overview.CONCLUSION SHOPPINGCan you be more specific about what was said and which verse they "twisted"?
Are we reading scriptures, the Bible for support for our own agenda, viewpoints, and conclusions? Are we just trying to find something that agrees with us and our thinking? These are questions I have pondered for quite some time now. I have seen a person make a statement that is very negative and can only be called hateful. Then try to twist a single sentence from the Bible to support their statement. This is nothing more than conclusion shopping in the Holy Scriptures. So are you one of those that spend your time in the scriptures looking for something you have already decided, a viewpoint, or in support of your own agenda? OR Do you read the Bible to learn the meaning of the divinely inspired words of God, seeking His guidance, His wisdom, and His love? Do you read the Bible with no pre-conceived viewpoint, no agenda, no desire to support what you have come to believe? These are questions we need to be asking ourselves each time we open the Bible, go to a Church service or any other type of function related to faith. Do not seek God through your own view and eyes of who he is, but rather seek God through the words and the eyes into his heaven. Just my opinion.
This is just a general observation from multiple comments and conversations of an extended period. I am not trying to pinpoint one person, one statement or any one thing. I just have noticed this tendency, even in myself. So I voiced an observation that I think we all need to work on.
Post by: guest116 on August 12, 2021, 09:00:02 pm
For the record, I can be a very selfish and narrow focus on desires when it comes to things and this really hit me hard to realize I was bitching to myself about someone doing what I also did.
Post by: guest116 on August 14, 2021, 02:21:13 pm
Post by: guest116 on October 09, 2021, 08:59:03 pm
Post by: guest116 on October 31, 2021, 09:14:28 pm
OCTOBER 29th, 2021
To the Faithful of the Reformed Catholic Church and all People of Goodwill:
We will be celebrating a variety of holidays and special events in the United States during the month of November. In addition to marking the Church’s celebration of All Saints Day, November 1st is the first day of a month-long celebration of Native Americans and Native Alaskans. The Native Americans and Native Alaskans and other indigenous people of our country have a remarkable history that predates the arrival of the Europeans and the Christian religion. November is a time to learn and rejoice in their varied, diverse and rich culture, histories and traditions. We should appreciate the great contributions that they have made. It is even more important to celebrate this month as the Indigenous people of the world help remind us all of our responsibility to care for all of God’s creation. Let us take the time to celebrate them and learn from them.
As we move through our celebrations this month, let us not forget our veterans of the Armed Forces on November 11th. We owe so much to our veterans for our freedoms. Our veterans, those drafted as well as those who volunteered, chose to serve their country in the defense of our freedoms. These include those indigenous people who fought for our country and the lands of their ancestors. We owe a great deal to the Eskimo Scouts, the Navajo Code talkers, and all who served. We honor them and thank those who are members of the Church as well as those we meet and encounter in our daily lives. Let us pray for them in a special way this November 11th.
Finally, there is Thanksgiving Day. The third Thursday of November was declared a federal holiday by President Abraham Lincoln in 1863 as a day set aside to express our gratitude. While we who follow Christ are called to give thanks every day, Thanksgiving Day invites us to deeper reflection on our many blessings. It also calls us to consider ways to share our gratitude with those around us who may be broken or in need. We encourage all Americans to take the time this month, and especially on Thanksgiving Day, to give thanks to those in our lives who are important and make our lives more complete. Let us also thank God for all the people, things and beauty that surround us on a daily basis.
Thank you for keeping the faith during these challenging times. Have a blessed month of November!
The Bishops & Board of Directors of the Reformed Catholic Church
Post by: guest116 on October 31, 2021, 09:39:26 pm
I published this elsewhere and met with some pushback as well as positive response, just sharing with my friends here some of my writings. It is kind of long
In recent years, the Mexican celebration of the Day of the Dead (November 2) has gained visibility in the USA and around the world, thanks in great part to media and movies including Pixar’s animated feature Coco. It is a colorful part of Latin American Catholic culture.
For Americans, and perhaps people from other countries where this celebration is not a longstanding tradition, this folkloric holiday could simply seem like a “Mexican Halloween,” in the worst possible sense. It could appear as a pagan celebration that invites people to celebrate the darkness of death or even worship it (associating it with the “Santa Muerte” or “Saint Death” cult). Some even feel it is to seek to communicate with the dead through pre-Colombian rites and rituals.
This is the danger of learning about other cultures from movies, on one hand, and on the other, of misunderstanding the process of inculturation which the Church has practiced since its founding and in all the different forms of the Catholic Church.
Let us begin with what the Day of the Dead is not. To quote a 2019 article from Vatican News: “It must be made clear that in Mexico this celebration is not a ‘satanic cult’ or something related to a ‘cult of death.’” Nor is it generally understood exactly as it was depicted in the film Coco. This movie did incorporate many real elements of Mexican culture. But let us be honest here, subsidiary Pixar is not a reliable source for information on the way Catholics in Mexico celebrate the Day of the Dead.
Using a well-written passage from Aleteia, let me quote them on what it is. First of all, returning to the Vatican News article, “it forms a part of a belief that has its roots in the Prehispanic world.” Among the cultures that existed in what is now Mexico before the coming of Europeans, the article goes on to explain, there was a general belief in an afterlife, including something analogous to Purgatory. For the dead to reach their destination in the afterlife, they needed certain essential objects, and once a year they visited the earth. During this occasion, the living could offer them food and objects to help them along.
At this point it is still possible to object, being easy to state, “See? It’s a pagan celebration that Catholics should avoid.” However, let us consider this; when Catholic missionaries arrived in the Americas, they realized that in these beliefs and celebrations there were elements of truth that were a common ground that could help the indigenous peoples understand the Catholic faith. These partial truths are what the Church calls “semina verbi” or the “seeds of the Word”—a term coined by St. Justin Martyr in the second century (originally in Greek, “logoi spermatikoi”).
The missionaries engaged in what is known as inculturation: they took the elements of truth they found and some of the cultural manifestations that accompanied them, and infused them with the Catholic faith, transforming the feast of the god of the underworld into a celebration of All Souls Day. In this way, the missionaries introduced Catholic teaching, and this helped transform the culture as a whole.
Inculturation is something that had been used in some form or another since St. Paul. St. Paul himself, when speaking at the Areopagus in Athens, did not say, “Forget everything you know, because it’s all wrong.” Instead, he quoted a pagan poet and referred to a pagan altar “to the unknown god,” saying, “What you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (Acts 17:22-31)
Many folkloric traditions surrounding Catholic feast days have been adopted over the centuries from non-Christian traditions as part of inculturation. Even some aspects of Catholic iconography, terminology, and philosophy (used to elucidate theology) have non-Christian origins, such as Greco-Roman mystery cults and Neoplatonism.
While anti-Catholic rhetoric from atheists and non-Catholic Christians often exaggerates how much the Church has adopted from these sources and claims it has harmed the faith, the fact of inculturation is undeniable and quite positive. Grace builds on and perfects nature. In His providence, he has guided humanity towards the truth and prepared us to receive the Gospel. When human beings strive forward, even with some mistakes, God takes what is good and makes it better, while purging what is mistaken or evil.
We must recognize the feast as an essential element of Mexican tradition and identity and warn against the corrupting influence of … none other than the United States, with its distortion of Mexican culture and its confusion of Day of the Dead with Halloween. At the same time, we must warn against the cult of Santa Muerte, a recent invention tied to the culture surrounding drug trafficking and not specifically related to the Day of the Dead.
Can Catholics celebrate the Day of the Dead? The answer is clearly “yes,” if those Catholics or any other Christian denomination understand properly as the celebration of All Souls Day with certain cultural, folkloric aspects of Mexican culture.
So, we say to the Faithful of the Reformed Catholic Church and all People of Goodwill, enjoy this special day and treat it with the respect and reverence it is meant to have.
Post by: guest8 on October 31, 2021, 10:42:15 pm
About the Day of the Dead
I published this elsewhere and met with some pushback as well as positive response, just sharing with my friends here some of my writings. It is kind of long
In recent years, the Mexican celebration of the Day of the Dead (November 2) has gained visibility in the USA and around the world, thanks in great part to media and movies including Pixar’s animated feature Coco. It is a colorful part of Latin American Catholic culture.
For Americans, and perhaps people from other countries where this celebration is not a longstanding tradition, this folkloric holiday could simply seem like a “Mexican Halloween,” in the worst possible sense. It could appear as a pagan celebration that invites people to celebrate the darkness of death or even worship it (associating it with the “Santa Muerte” or “Saint Death” cult). Some even feel it is to seek to communicate with the dead through pre-Colombian rites and rituals.
This is the danger of learning about other cultures from movies, on one hand, and on the other, of misunderstanding the process of inculturation which the Church has practiced since its founding and in all the different forms of the Catholic Church.
Let us begin with what the Day of the Dead is not. To quote a 2019 article from Vatican News: “It must be made clear that in Mexico this celebration is not a ‘satanic cult’ or something related to a ‘cult of death.’” Nor is it generally understood exactly as it was depicted in the film Coco. This movie did incorporate many real elements of Mexican culture. But let us be honest here, subsidiary Pixar is not a reliable source for information on the way Catholics in Mexico celebrate the Day of the Dead.
Using a well-written passage from Aleteia, let me quote them on what it is. First of all, returning to the Vatican News article, “it forms a part of a belief that has its roots in the Prehispanic world.” Among the cultures that existed in what is now Mexico before the coming of Europeans, the article goes on to explain, there was a general belief in an afterlife, including something analogous to Purgatory. For the dead to reach their destination in the afterlife, they needed certain essential objects, and once a year they visited the earth. During this occasion, the living could offer them food and objects to help them along.
At this point it is still possible to object, being easy to state, “See? It’s a pagan celebration that Catholics should avoid.” However, let us consider this; when Catholic missionaries arrived in the Americas, they realized that in these beliefs and celebrations there were elements of truth that were a common ground that could help the indigenous peoples understand the Catholic faith. These partial truths are what the Church calls “semina verbi” or the “seeds of the Word”—a term coined by St. Justin Martyr in the second century (originally in Greek, “logoi spermatikoi”).
The missionaries engaged in what is known as inculturation: they took the elements of truth they found and some of the cultural manifestations that accompanied them, and infused them with the Catholic faith, transforming the feast of the god of the underworld into a celebration of All Souls Day. In this way, the missionaries introduced Catholic teaching, and this helped transform the culture as a whole.
Inculturation is something that had been used in some form or another since St. Paul. St. Paul himself, when speaking at the Areopagus in Athens, did not say, “Forget everything you know, because it’s all wrong.” Instead, he quoted a pagan poet and referred to a pagan altar “to the unknown god,” saying, “What you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (Acts 17:22-31)
Many folkloric traditions surrounding Catholic feast days have been adopted over the centuries from non-Christian traditions as part of inculturation. Even some aspects of Catholic iconography, terminology, and philosophy (used to elucidate theology) have non-Christian origins, such as Greco-Roman mystery cults and Neoplatonism.
While anti-Catholic rhetoric from atheists and non-Catholic Christians often exaggerates how much the Church has adopted from these sources and claims it has harmed the faith, the fact of inculturation is undeniable and quite positive. Grace builds on and perfects nature. In His providence, he has guided humanity towards the truth and prepared us to receive the Gospel. When human beings strive forward, even with some mistakes, God takes what is good and makes it better, while purging what is mistaken or evil.
We must recognize the feast as an essential element of Mexican tradition and identity and warn against the corrupting influence of … none other than the United States, with its distortion of Mexican culture and its confusion of Day of the Dead with Halloween. At the same time, we must warn against the cult of Santa Muerte, a recent invention tied to the culture surrounding drug trafficking and not specifically related to the Day of the Dead.
Can Catholics celebrate the Day of the Dead? The answer is clearly “yes,” if those Catholics or any other Christian denomination understand properly as the celebration of All Souls Day with certain cultural, folkloric aspects of Mexican culture.
So, we say to the Faithful of the Reformed Catholic Church and all People of Goodwill, enjoy this special day and treat it with the respect and reverence it is meant to have.
Mark, well written and very interesting. Thanks
Bladed
Post by: guest116 on November 01, 2021, 12:26:08 am
Post by: patrick jane on November 06, 2021, 07:44:18 pm
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/october-web-only/day-of-dead-christians-participate-dia-de-los-muertos.html
Should Christians Participate in the Day of the Dead?
The Mexican holiday is more prominent than ever. Three evangelicals who’ve seen Día de los Muertos up close weigh in.
El Día de los Muertos, translated as the Day of the Dead, is a Mexican holiday also celebrated in many US communities. It has roots both in the Catholic observances of All Saints’ and All Souls’ Days and in indigenous Mexican beliefs about the dead.
According to the ancient religion of Mexico, Day of the Dead traditions help the spirits of the dead return to their families, keeping them happy and forestalling the difficulties the dead could inflict on the living. Celebrations vary by region, but they have much in common: altars with offerings to dead relatives, skull-shaped sugar candies, marigolds, incense, votives, and food; candlelit cemeteries; tissue-paper cutouts; and calaverita (“little skull”) decorations everywhere.
CT asked Christians who’ve been in ministry in places where the Day of the Dead is celebrated, “Can Christians participate in good conscience? If so, how?”
Sally Isáis (Mexico City, Mexico): Christians shouldn’t participate at all, given the nature of the holiday.
Every mid-October before the Day of the Dead, my parents would receive a note from my Mexico City school saying, “If your daughter does not bring her part for the classroom offering, she will flunk civics class.”
My mother would say, “I am sorry, but as evangelical Christians, we cannot be part of this celebration, even if it means Sally will not pass the course.” She would then ask the teacher if there was any way that I could make up for not participating. Some years I flunked the course, and other years I was allowed to present another project. My peers were always upset that I would not do my part to decorate the class altar to the dead. My children had similar experiences when they were in Mexico City schools.
Some people see the Day of the Dead as simply a Mexican cultural art form and a family-friendly celebration: colorful, decorative, and dramatic, even somewhat romantic. However, there is a dark spiritual side to the holiday that has steadily increased and become more obvious and unrestrained.
Like other evangelicals in Mexico, I believe the Day of the Dead is about honoring death—not just the dead—and taking part (consciously or unconsciously) in occult practices that God forbids his people to engage in (Deut. 18:10–14).
I asked other Mexican evangelical leaders to weigh in, and they were very consistent on the issue. I haven’t found any evangelical Christians in Mexico who would actively participate in this tradition in which our culture, like the prophet Daniel’s, pushes us to compromise our worship of the one true God.
“Under no circumstance should a truly born-again believer celebrate the Day of the Dead,” says Victoriano Baez Camargo, pastoral leader and former director of the Mexican Bible Society.
Pastor Cirilo Cruz, president of the National Evangelical Fraternity of Mexico, states, “Every altar to the dead has idols. Daniel chose not to contaminate himself with things offered to them.”
Gilberto Rocha and his wife, Clara, pastors of the megachurch Calacoaya, say the normalization of Día de los Muertos shouldn’t be a big factor: “Our basis should be the Word of God and not culture or what is in style.”
“Our participation during these days is that of witnessing,” says Cruz. Many evangelical churches hold all-night prayer meetings and evangelistic outreach efforts during these especially dark days.
At the core of many Mexican Christians’ objections to Día de Los Muertos is its celebration of death. “This celebration is in reality the worship of death. Jesus taught us to celebrate life and that death is no longer triumphant,” says Baez Camargo.
The Rochas note that “Scripture is very clear regarding death: it is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26). We cannot celebrate our enemy. We must choose between life (a blessing) and death (a curse).”
“The only death that Christians celebrate is that of our Savior and the life that his sacrifice has afforded to us. We celebrate Jesus, the Bread of Life—not the dead. We participate at the table of Christ, not at the table of demons” asserts pastor Edna Porras.
Believers should not participate in the Day of the Dead. To do so is to play with fire. During the days of Día de los Muertos, we Christians take the opportunity to celebrate and share the life offered to us through Jesus Christ, who conquered death.
Sally Isáis is the director of Milamex, a nonprofit ministry that leads and empowers Mexicans in their calling to walk alongside the Church and serve Christ in all areas of life.
Heidi Carlson (San Diego, California): Christians should avoid ancestor worship, but we can mourn with those who mourn.
I wasn’t born into a family that participates in Day of the Dead rituals. So, when I realized I needed to prepare my children for the festivities in our San Diego neighborhood, the context I primarily drew upon was my upbringing in Africa.
Our Sherman Heights community in San Diego holds the region’s most traditional Day of the Dead festivities, where the local community center hosts a hall of altars and residents participate in a candlelight procession. People set up altars in their front yards with candles, offerings, and photos. Those thoughtfully curated displays are more prevalent on our evening walks than fake cobwebs or other Halloween decorations.
In Mozambique, where I grew up, ancestor worship, as well as ancestor veneration, played an important role in people’s lives. In ancestor worship, the dead aren’t simply honored; their souls need to be appeased, as they can make the lives of the living better or worse. Ancestors are revered as spiritual entities that communicate with family on earth and act as mediators to a distant god. They are a presence in daily life. Fear is a common theme in ancestor worship.
For people across the globe, honoring ancestors can become a fear-filled religion. In cultures where ancestor veneration forms an integral part of cultural identity, Christians who do not participate in the rituals often risk persecution. Their seeming lack of reverence for ancestors might bring shame and bad fortune to the family. It is an apparent rejection of their cultural identity.
Given this understanding, my instinct was to remain separate and not be present at any Day of the Dead events in our neighborhood. Being present at events might hinder my Christian witness, I thought. Others might think I’m tacitly endorsing ancestor worship if I engage in the activities. But these were our neighbors, our community. What was our calling in this context?
Once, during an evening stroll, we met a neighbor sitting on his front porch, carefully curating an altar. His front steps were lined with a beautiful arrangement of flowers and candles, interspersed with framed family photos. He had never done an altar before. But his father passed away the previous year, so this year he wanted to memorialize him. Joyfully, he pointed out photos and shared memories. For this neighbor, the altar functioned as a memorial.
I learned that for many residents, the Day of the Dead is a holiday of remembrance. Sharing stories and the act of communal remembrance can be a meaningful event. Day of the Dead in Sherman Heights is also a festival celebrating cultural heritage.
The secularization and commercialization have made pathways around its connection with the occult and ancestor worship, in the same way that many who enjoy Halloween are not participating in pagan ritual.
Nevertheless, there is no denying the strong spiritual component to Day of the Dead. Some people—even churchgoers—pray to dead relatives and leave food offerings, fearing what will happen if they don’t.
Mixing Christianity with other practices and coming to believe a gospel of works may be glaringly obvious syncretism when I perceive it in others. But there are ways I may be syncretistic, trusting in Jesus and something else, that are not so spiritually different from an offering to a dead relative.
No matter where Day of the Dead celebrants fall on the spectrum or how your neighbors and community celebrate, this is not a holiday to be feared. When I see the smirking skull, I think of Paul’s words: “‘Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?’ The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 15:55–57).
When the neighborhood is bedecked with sugar skulls, candles, and pots of marigolds, I engage, asking my neighbors questions about beloved deceased family members and sharing in joy at the memories.
And perhaps I will have the opportunity to share with them the joy and assurance we have because we serve the God of the living, not the dead—the God who welcomes us not because of the rituals we perform but because of the work he did on the cross.
Heidi Carlson is a writer now living in the Kingdom of Bahrain with her husband and four children.
Alexia Salvatierra (Pasadena, California): This is an issue Christians can disagree on, so long as we put our neighbors’ spiritual health first.
Paul had to teach the early church about more than one morally thorny question. Instead of coming down neatly with a list of dos and don’ts, the apostle raised a more fundamental theological principle: How will this choice affect your neighbor?
“‘I have the right to do anything,’ you say—but not everything is beneficial. ‘I have the right to do anything’—but not everything is constructive. No one should seek their own good, but the good of others” (1 Cor. 10:23–24).
As a Lutheran, I understand church holidays as physical reminders of spiritual principles: helpful for people with bodies, whose learning is strengthened by physical experience. All Saints’ Day—one of the traditions el Día de los Muertos stems from—is a vehicle for the biblical message that the body of Christ is both earthly and heavenly, providing a moment of reassurance, a sense of support, and a gift of perspective.
Of course, el Día de los Muertos is not All Saints’ Day. For some, it is a form of ancestor worship or an excuse for a drunken party. For others, it is a time of remembering loved ones and valuing the gift of family.
I was born in Los Angeles, to family who came from the antichurch, socialist tradition in Mexico and saw the holiday as encouraging superstition. I became a Christian in the Jesus Movement of the ’70s.
I joined evangelical Spanish-speaking churches who saw the holiday as promoting a dangerous distortion of the afterlife, distracting people from the eternal consequences of accepting or rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior, and encouraging pagan beliefs.
When I became a Lutheran pastor, I walked into a debate between pastors who shared the above perspective and others who thought the holiday was a positive cultural practice for its emphasis on the value of family and respect for elders, useful as a teaching tool.
How should Christians respond? Do we participate in the best aspects of the holiday and ignore the worst? Do we absent ourselves and denounce it? In the Lutheran Hispanic context as well as in the Centro Latino community at Fuller Theological Seminary, we can find both perspectives.
It is ultimately a question of evangelism: how we proclaim the gospel in words and deeds so that the love of Christ and the way of Christ are both experienced and named.
For example, Martin Luther used the tune of a famous German drinking song for his signature hymn, “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God,” because he wanted to communicate the concept of Immanuel—God with us in the midst of our lives, in every dark human corner that needs his mercy and light.
At times in the Book of Acts, Paul pointed out God’s presence in the familiar and used that as a signpost to lead people to a saving knowledge of Christ. At other times, he denounced idol worship and sinful cultural practices.
In all of the cultures that I know well, people honor the memory of their dead relatives. I can't imagine why we would consider that in itself to be a sin. As for the altars, or shrines, of Day of the Dead, building a shrine is sinful or not depending on who you are worshiping there. If you are worshiping an idol, then it is a sin. If you are worshiping God, then it is not.
However, in the Latin American context, a Christian would have to do some intentional work to clarify that a picture of a relative at a Día de los Muertos shrine was not being treated as an idol.
It is possible to use Día de los Muertos as an occasion to preach about earthly and heavenly family, to talk about eternal life, to ask what it takes to truly laugh in the face of death—and perhaps to do all that at the table of celebration with “tax collectors and sinners” (Mark 2:15–16).
It is also possible to use Día de los Muertos to talk about how to separate from the world and seek a life of purity and faithfulness, embodying the Word in the refusal to participate.
Whether to participate in the holiday is a question of discernment in context, using the guiding principle of love for one’s neighbor. This is an example of what Martin Luther called adiaphora, a topic about which faithful Christians can disagree without breaking the unity that Jesus prayed for.
Alexia Salvatierra is Academic Dean at Fuller Theological Seminary’s Centro Latino and ordained pastor since 1988.
Post by: patrick jane on November 19, 2021, 02:57:17 pm
Post by: guest116 on November 25, 2021, 01:41:11 am
Post by: guest116 on November 25, 2021, 09:16:39 pm
When most of us read the scriptures we read the Bible from the viewpoint of the 21st-century human. That means we read it from a perspective and understand being born to freedoms of some type. Now I know, some will point out that parts of the world still are oppressive and slavery still exists. All true, but the majority of the world people have some level of freedom. Reading the Bible this way is a mistake. You have to place yourself in the Middle East, the Holy Land in Jesus' time. Jesus was not born free. He was born into an occupied territory. He was born into a type of captivity. He was born into oppression, slavery, and captivity. These factors cannot be changed just because your master and oppressors give you some freedoms of movement and leeways in some practices to include your religion. You are still under their thumb and control.
So let us put ourselves in that mindset and remember that there is a lot unsaid. Think of the sermon on the Mount. Jesus did not spend time telling those gathered of their plight, of their oppression, of the fact they were Jews and hate and looked down upon by the Romans that were their masters. He did not have to. It was just understood. Think of coming into the middle of a movie with no idea of the story arc. That is what we have in the Bible. I know some of the modern Bibles add footnotes to explain as much as they can, but the original authors were not writing for the century’s they were writing for the now. The audience already knew what was not said. We do not. This has led to centuries of assumptions. This has led to centuries of possible misunderstanding of what is said and meant.
Take the time to reread your favorite passages, clear your mind of your perspective of now and of your preconceived assumptions. Instead, read it with thoughts of the situation that Jesus lived in and realize that most of the statements he makes are answers to questions not yet asked but needed an answer. I have a feeling that you will find a deep appreciation for the brilliance and the genius of Jesus of Nazareth before he became Jesus the Christ. A true genius in Philosophy, strategy, and tactics to turn the tables on the masters that oppressed his people. He set in motion a truly beautiful thing once you understand his motives and his plan.
Post by: patrick jane on December 10, 2021, 04:21:57 pm
Post by: guest116 on January 14, 2022, 12:29:46 am
Rachel Held Evans, Searching for Sunday.
A great voice that we lost in 2019. If you have not read any of her writings, check her out.
Post by: patrick jane on February 09, 2022, 02:09:16 pm
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2022/february/passion-translation-tpt-bible-gateway-remove-charismatic-pa.html
Bible Gateway Removes The Passion Translation
Popular among charismatics, the “heart-level” Bible version was criticized as a paraphrase posing as translation.
A Bible version designed to “recapture the emotion of God’s Word” was removed from Bible Gateway last week. The Passion Translation (TPT) is listed as “no longer available” among the site’s 90 English-language Bible offerings.
First released as a New Testament in 2017, The Passion Translation includes additions that do not appear in the source manuscripts, phrases meant to draw out God’s “tone” and “heart” in each passage.
Translator Brian Simmons—a former missionary linguist and pastor who now leads Passion and Fire Ministries—sees his work in Bible translation as part of a divine calling on his life to bring a word, the Word, to the nations. His translation has been endorsed by a range of apostolic charismatic Christians, including The Call’s Lou Engle, Bethel’s Bill Johnson, and Hillsong’s Bobbie Houston.
TPT’s publisher, BroadStreet Publishing Group, confirmed that Bible Gateway “made the disappointing decision to discontinue their license for The Passion Translation” as of January 2022.
“While no explanation was given, BroadStreet Publishing accepts that Bible Gateway has the right to make decisions as they see fit with the platforms they manage,” BroadStreet said in a statement.
Bible Gateway’s parent company, HarperCollins Christian Publishing, told CT, “We periodically review our content, making changes as necessary, to align with our business goals.” The company declined to offer further details about its reason for the decision. TPT remains available on YouVersion and Logos Bible Software.
from Simmons’s social media showed he initially responded to The Passion Translation’s removal from Bible Gateway by saying, “Cancel culture is alive in the church world” and asking followers to request the site restore the version. That February 2 post no longer appears on his Facebook page.
Simmons argues TPT’s additions and context “expand the essential meaning of the original language by highlighting the essence of God’s original message.”
“With The Passion Translation, we have a high goal to being accurate to the text, but accuracy involves the heart behind it,” Simmons said in an interview last month. “We’re trying to discover, communicate, and release God’s heart through the words we choose.”
Translation versus paraphrase
Simmons and his publisher describe TPT as a translation instead of a paraphrase because Simmons and his partners worked to develop the text from Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic manuscripts rather than taking an existing English translation and putting it into his own words.
Simmons has repeatedly defended the translation label, saying that all Bible translations involve some paraphrase. He puts TPT in the same category as thought-for-thought translations like the New International Version (NIV).
But Bible scholars, including those who translated the NIV, use a more rigorous standard. A new version must closely adhere to the wording, syntax, and structure of its source. Critics of TPT say it doesn’t meet those standards and functions as a paraphrase while presenting itself as a translation.
If TPT’s removal from Bible Gateway was related to the concerns over its translation claims, “I think that’s a good thing,” said Andrew Wilson, a Reformed charismatic who pastors at King’s Church London and a columnist for CT. “There are just too many additions to the text that have no basis in the original—which is fine (sort of) if it’s self-consciously a paraphrase, but not if people think it’s a translation.”
Wilson first raised concerns in a 2016 blog post about TPT and continues to get asked about the version from fellow charismatics. He wrote that he doesn’t recommend it, objects to the publisher’s advice to use it from the pulpit, and urges leaders to clarify that it’s not a translation.
Certain passages in TPT are twice as long as in other translations such as the NIV. The Lord’s Prayer in Luke 11, for example, is printed in red as Jesus’ words and reads:
Our heavenly Father, may the glory of your name be the center on which our life turns. May your Holy Spirit come upon us and cleanse us. Manifest your kingdom on earth. And give us our needed bread for the coming day. Forgive our sins as we ourselves release forgiveness to those who have wronged us. And rescue us every time we face tribulations.
A 2018 review in The Gospel Coalition journal Themelios critiqued Simmons’s translation process, specifically his overuse of “double translation,” bringing in multiple meanings of a word even if it wasn’t clear that wordplay was intended. It was written by a scholar on the NIV Committee on Bible Translation, who worried that Simmons’s own theology and favorite themes were driving his word choice.
Mike Winger, a Calvary Chapel–trained pastor who teaches through his online ministry Bible Thinker, has drawn in over one million YouTube views with a series examining The Passion Translation.
“Bible Gateway removing TPT after reviewing the work in more detail is a signal to everyone that the work may have issues,” he said. “When you add that to the growing number of scholars, pastors, and laymen who are raising the red flag about TPT, you have a loud and simple message: ‘TPT has enough issues that it is best to avoid it.’”
Translations and tribalism
Winger recruited evangelical scholars including Darrell Bock, Nijay Gupta, Douglas Moo, and Craig Bloomberg to critique specific TPT passages. Gupta repeated some of his reservations to CT, saying, if TPT were to appear on a site alongside established translations “it should have a warning label: ‘One of these is not like the other.’ … non-academics should know that TPT does not have the backing of accredited seminaries and linguistic organizations experienced in translation work.”
Winger has called out Simmons for bringing in “large amounts of material that really have no presence in the Greek or Hebrew … and the words he’s adding are particular words that are part of a hyper-charismatic, signs and wonders movement, words that are about imparting and triggering and unleashing and releasing.”
Mark Ward, editor of Bible Study Magazine, fears a trend of subsets of the church creating Bible translations of and for their own. In his book, Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible, he urges against letting translations become tribal boundary markers.
“As Paul said of himself and Peter and Apollos, ‘All are yours.’ I hate seeing the Bible caught in Christian tugs of war,” he told CT. “The reason Luther and Tyndale translated alone is that nooses stood ready nearby. That’s no longer our problem. I think the best way to promote each other’s trust in our good Bible translations is to use—and expect—multi-denominational, committee-based works.”
There is a long history of single-author Bible translations, with Robert Alter, N. T. Wright, and D. B. Hart releasing recent versions. The number of Bible resources is growing, and they’re becoming more accessible to the average reader through digital platforms like Bible Gateway, YouVersion, and Logos.
Peter Gurry, New Testament professor at Phoenix Seminary, said it’s not surprising that any new Bible project would want to position itself as both trustworthy and better than what’s available already.
For Christians cracking open or tapping over to new translations, he suggests they consider the audience of a new resource, look for consistency within its own principles, and see how it lines up with the versions they know already.
“For readers who don’t know the original languages (which is, of course, most of them) … you can start to form a judgment of a new translation by comparing it with those other translations that have gained a trusted readership over the years,” he said. “In the case of evangelicals, this means something like KJV, NIV, ESV, NASB.”
Christians who care about reading reliable and accurate biblical texts have been wary and sometimes critical of paraphrases. Even The Message—among the top 10 best-selling Bible versions in the world—has gotten dinged over the years by pastors and scholars alike for what it adds, misses, or rewords.
But its author, Eugene Peterson, was clear that he was putting the Bible into his voice—describing the project as a paraphrase, not a translation. He even said he felt “uneasy” about its use in worship and personally still preferred the originals in his devotions. (The Message, along with paraphrases such as the J. B. Phillips New Testament and The Living Bible, are available on Bible Gateway.)
Passion and power in the text
“Once you know God’s word through a standard translation, I love how paraphrases can yank you out of your Bible-reading rut and provide fresh insight into Scripture. Single-author translations likewise,” said Ward. “The one thing I have liked the most about TPT were those moments when I felt like I got to read a familiar phrase again for the first time, because Simmons just put it a little differently.”
For dedicated TPT readers, the new phrasing and the emotive power of the text are major draws.
On Instagram, Jenn Johnson, known for her Bethel music hits like “Goodness of God,” regularly posts pictures of her daily reading from The Passion Translation, with whole passages underlined and phrases like “I spoke in faith” and “no wonder we never give up” (2 Corinthians 4) circled in pen.
Bill Johnson at Bethel Church still uses the New American Standard Bible (NASB) in most of his writing and preaching due to familiarity, he said in a clip from last year titled, “Is The Passion Translation Heresy?” He uses TPT for devotional reading, as he did with paraphrases before it. He believes they are particularly helpful for new believers, too, and Bethel sells a branded TPT in its bookstore.
“For inspiration, I love The Passion Translation,” the Bethel founder said. “Every time he (Simmons) deviates from what would be a traditional approach to a verse, he explains it so powerfully that even if you don’t agree with him, you at least understand where he’s coming from.”
Simmons is deliberate about making TPT passionate and readable. In a promotional video, he calls it “a dynamic new version of the Bible that is easy to read, unlocking the mystery of God’s heart, the passions he has for you, deep emotions that will evoke an overwhelming response of love as he unfolds the Scriptures before your very eyes.”
He describes how he has “uncovered” what he sees as “the love language of God that has been missing from many translations.”
“God’s love language is not hidden, or missing,” Wilson wrote as part of his critique from 2015. “It is in plain sight in the many excellent translations we have available.”
TPT translation continues
While serving as missionaries in the 1980s, Simmons and his wife helped develop a new Bible translation for an unreached people group in Central America. After returning to the US, planting a church, and leading their Bible-teaching ministry, he began to work on The Passion Translation using the skills he honed on the mission field.
The Passion Translation contrasts this approach—where translations are done by necessity by individuals or small teams, whose main goal is to transfer the essential meaning of the text—with traditional translation work, which involves a broader committee of experts.
Simmons is used to facing questions about his credentials. During a recent interview with Life Today Live, he said, “I get asked that a lot. People say, ‘Do you feel qualified?’ I say, ‘Who in the world is?’ … My qualifications are that I was told to do this from the Lord. Whatever he tells you to do, he will meet the need you have to finish it.”
While Simmons serves as lead translator, TPT lists seven scholars who oversee and review his work. They are currently working on the remaining books of the Old Testament and moving forward with plans to release a full Bible edition around 2027.
“An exhaustive and thorough review and update of the entire Bible will be undertaken ahead of its release in the next 5-6 years,” BroadStreet said in a statement. “The review of the text by our team of theologians and industry professionals will continue to address feedback, as has been our approach to-date.”
“We believe The Passion Translation will become one of the most widely read and beloved translations in the market for years to come,” the publisher said. “We hope this translation will help bring the Bible to life for this generation and through it, people will encounter Jesus and his love for them in new and exciting ways.”
Neither Bible Gateway nor YouVersion offered figures on its popularity; five years into publication, TPT does not currently rank among the top 25 best-selling Bibles in print.
Post by: guest116 on April 07, 2022, 09:16:15 pm
Post by: guest116 on April 15, 2022, 02:03:50 pm
Post by: guest116 on May 04, 2022, 08:26:00 pm
Post by: guest116 on May 22, 2022, 12:14:24 am
Post by: guest116 on July 20, 2022, 03:08:58 pm
The Bible, when read as most of us in faith read is not that important for us to maintain our faith. However, for those looking for faith or looking for a deeper meaning in our faith, a deeper reading with meditation and contemplation is required to find something that is part of a lifetime journey. Stop reading the Bible as if your journey is done, start reading it as the deeper meaning has not been found and your journey is ongoing.
Post by: guest116 on July 31, 2022, 01:00:16 am
I just finished reading “Searching for Sunday” written by Rachel Held Evans. I can not recommend this book enough. It should be on everyone's shelf, whether you are religious or not. I am fully convinced that Rachel Held Evans did as much for people needing a place to renew or start faith as anyone. She made it acceptable to have doubts, and questions and not hide from those same questions and doubts. She did this through her poignant, truthful writing, but using her blog to reach many people like her, that felt they were living a lie by staying “inside” the church when they knew they belonged “outside” the church. If you have done any reading of the Bible or Christian literature, you know most of Jesus’ ministry was for those that were outside the church of his time. He welcomed those kicked out or cast out are just sinners in some form. Held Evans does the same on her journey. She encounters on her journey many like her but had been afraid to say the doubts and the questions out loud. My copy is filled with margin notes, tabs, and love for this author. Sadly she passed away in 2019, quieting a voice the world truly needed. She left behind the books she authored, this being the pinnacle in my opinion, and an annual conference, The Evolving Faith Conference for young progressive Christians. Once you read this book, the conference makes complete sense.
Post by: guest116 on September 08, 2022, 04:19:47 pm