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Christian Theology with DOUG and TED T. => Christian Threads => Topic started by: Jon Wood on September 09, 2018, 11:17:47 pm

Title: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 09, 2018, 11:17:47 pm
(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/zombies-hand-silhouette-picture-id849048646?k=6&m=849048646&s=612x612&w=0&h=gi_xgzs2XMoE-TYYvcLSIK5rItb9ayl3qjc2HjEICPw=)


So i’m Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential problem and I don’t know if it’s been pointed out elsewhere.

With full access to  your consciousness, you would have access to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you weren’t so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly be tormented for all eternity? If they aren’t subject to that torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea of Jesus? I don’t think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to not be a selfish jerk, but i’m Sure it’s a pretty common way. So I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal torment.

On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially soothing information, is that person fully themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have been before they were altered for the torment?
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: 1Mind1Spirit on September 10, 2018, 01:20:28 am
Judgement can be a bitch.
Thank God he sent Jesus, who came willingly.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: truthjourney on September 10, 2018, 04:45:13 am
So i’m Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential problem and I don’t know if it’s been pointed out elsewhere.

With full access to  your consciousness, you would have access to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you weren’t so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly be tormented for all eternity? If they aren’t subject to that torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea of Jesus? I don’t think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to not be a selfish jerk, but i’m Sure it’s a pretty common way. So I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal torment.

On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially soothing information, is that person fully themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have been before they were altered for the torment?
I think I understand what you're saying and I agree.

I have always since I was a small child had a problem with the belief in hellfire as it was called then. Because when I was a child, I felt a closeness to God and the way He presented himself to me that his characteristics were unconditional love, mercy, compassion, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness. The idea that he could torment someone for eternity in hellfire was something that I would never have believed about Him. If I had believed that then there would have been a wall put up between me and Him, a separation, the closeness and trust and faith I had in Him would have been basically destroyed. Because I grew up in a very abusive environment with people who took pleasure in torture and other things I won't mention. So I did not view God as being the same way as these people were. He was the opposite of what they were. He was good and they were evil. He was light and they were darkness. He was love and they were hate. He was gentle and they were cruel. I thought of Him as a very loving heavenly Father who always made me feel loved and he gave me strength to endure what was happening to me.

But over the years as I was growing up, I went to churches and hellfire was continually preached to the point that I began to feel a morbid fear of God. I lost that closeness I had with Him. A wall was put up, a barrier, that separated me from Him. He was being misrepresented and described in human terms. The things that humans do to each other. The way that humans think. Down through history, and I learned about how people would be burned at the stake. I learned from the scriptures how babies were offered up to Baal and burned alive. Jer. 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind....Jer. 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
I learned how people used torture on others in the most heinous ways. And at the same time I was being taught in churches that God was the same way as humans, just as cruel or more so than humans because he was going to torture and torment people in hellfire for eternity. And I battled with this and became angry with God because I had been so conditioned to view him as being so much worse than humans and the things that humans do to each other.

When I was 15, I was in a foster home and there was this little girl brought there. She was 7 years old. Her mother had burned her hands on the stove and they were disfigured. Every night she would have nightmares, screaming in agony while clutching her hands together. Every night I would hear her screaming in pain and agony while clutching her hands together. I tried to calm and reassure her till she went back to sleep. And I started thinking about this. I was thinking about her mother and what a monster she was to do that to this little girl. And then the thought occurred to me, well isn't that the way you view God now? Do you really believe that God is as cruel as this little girl's mother was? Is he a monster the way you view her mother? That was a turning point for me. It really made a major impression on me.

Then after I got married and had children, there was no way that I would ever even consider the thought of burning my children alive. Does that mean that I have more love and compassion than God does? No, I do not. God is perfect and is love. His ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. He cannot be compared with humans that way. It is humans whose ways are cruel and evil and who enjoy the idea of torture, not all humans of course but many do.

So the walls have been torn down that separated me from God. the barriers are gone. I now view God almost the same way as I did when I was a child. I say almost because I can't quite recapture that childlike trust and faith that I had in God then. But it's close enough. I view Him as a loving Heavenly Father.

Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 10, 2018, 08:36:32 am
 
Yes ma’am, nobody had to scare me into following Jesus to know get to know God lol. I think it’s real easy for a lot of folks to twist God into their own personal form of revenge on an enemy. If they think real hard and their heart is in all the wrong places, they can make the Bible say nearly anything they want to justify being a horrible person themselves. People like that are why some people think that if the Bible is true, then God is evil. The crazy part is for me, even if God did turn out to be “evil” (which He isn’t, we just think like humans) I don’t think that i’d Care, because Jesus has shown me how to look past evil and love anyway. (Granted, i’m Not real good at it yet lol)

God’s judgement is truly just, whether I know what exactly that entails or not, i’m Not the source of all justness so i’m No expert on the matter lol. But there is a little bit of mental gymnastics to go through to show me that the standard explanation of eternal torture in hellfire works on an unbeliever who is selfless and can find comfort in the security of those who are not sentenced to the same fate as they are.

I think a part of what made that person who they were would have to be complete removed or changed to make the punishment work in that situation. i’m Not sure of how that could be so and it still be The same person/soul.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: joechan82 on September 10, 2018, 09:53:53 am
I hate to be this guy, but the Bible says what the Bible says. When we prune the parts we don't like out of it, we form God in our own image. I hate the thought of hell, especially because I have friends and family who are going there. But look at the other side of it all.  Look at the betrayal, the mockery, the scourging, and the crucifixion of Christ. What suffering He endured for our sake! Why did He do that?
I had a cousin tell me that she could not imagine her children having a sin nature, therefore they don't need a savior. How sad. She denies the sin nature and thus a need for salvation. This is why I think it is crucial to believe all of the Bible. (Even the parts we cannot understand.)
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 10, 2018, 03:18:03 pm
I hate to be this guy, but the Bible says what the Bible says. When we prune the parts we don't like out of it, we form God in our own image. I hate the thought of hell, especially because I have friends and family who are going there. But look at the other side of it all.  Look at the betrayal, the mockery, the scourging, and the crucifixion of Christ. What suffering He endured for our sake! Why did He do that?
I had a cousin tell me that she could not imagine her children having a sin nature, therefore they don't need a savior. How sad. She denies the sin nature and thus a need for salvation. This is why I think it is crucial to believe all of the Bible. (Even the parts we cannot understand.)

The point wasn’t necessarily where I stand on eternal hellfire (whether I believe it or not), but it was about an odd thought concerning the popular imagery involved (I do admit that I got tangential and put the discussion off track.) If God decided that’s what’s gonna happen to those who aren’t of Him, then I have no qualms about it lol. What we do have in this thread is a neat little theological question to ask God if He takes questions from idiots like me who like to know odd tidbits of information.

 Funny enough, as I was going about my day, I think there may be a certain fringe state of consciousness that could apply to the topic that is normally unobservable because it may typically be instantaneous in the human experience. There may be a perpetuation of a moment near a traumatically induces black out state, but again, is that state full consciousness? It reminds me of a dream I had of dying a few years back (I wish i could explain it, because it was a beautiful and disturbing dream, however that works lol)

 Anyway, I thought it was a good topic, the original concept took me all of 5 minutes to put together late last night and it took me all day to come up with my own best guess at an answer today. I think I make people worry about me unintentionally lol. Thanks for playing!
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: joechan82 on September 11, 2018, 04:27:19 pm
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 11, 2018, 04:35:01 pm
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
It is a great topic to me. It's very meaning to us is eternal. As much as I don't want there to be eternal suffering for anyone we have to accept what God says. How can God do that? Deep thinking required.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 12, 2018, 09:09:16 am
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.

Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort and freedom I have with it is because I was never really indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and i’m Just weird lol. I don’t think that I’m deeper than anyone, I just look at things a different way than many I guess.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 12, 2018, 09:13:50 am
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
It is a great topic to me. It's very meaning to us is eternal. As much as I don't want there to be eternal suffering for anyone we have to accept what God says. How can God do that? Deep thinking required.

Exactly, the question is based on a common understanding of a doctrine that most of us believe and goes into “How in the Hell does that work?” I understand that it’s a scary thought and kinda depressing too, but I think about it and I just wanna know if I can understand what goes on in that situation.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 12, 2018, 09:19:25 am
Also, i’ve Always worked under the assumption that Hell is forever and you suffer for all eternity with your mind working like it does in your daily life, so the question challenged that for me. I also hear that there is reason to look into the possibility of annihilation of the damned and I’m intrigued if that can sway me in that direction as making more sense. I have researched neither in depth at all, but I feel free to consider and give plausibility to both until I can find reason that one is true and the other is misunderstanding. If they both have the same amount of validity, then that is a very interesting thing to look at as well. 
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 12, 2018, 11:10:48 am
Also, i’ve Always worked under the assumption that Hell is forever and you suffer for all eternity with your mind working like it does in your daily life, so the question challenged that for me. I also hear that there is reason to look into the possibility of annihilation of the damned and I’m intrigued if that can sway me in that direction as making more sense. I have researched neither in depth at all, but I feel free to consider and give plausibility to both until I can find reason that one is true and the other is misunderstanding. If they both have the same amount of validity, then that is a very interesting thing to look at as well.
True, so true. Here's a cute little song by Phil Collins and Genesis from my high school days. Until just a few months ago I never knew the song was about going to hell and being in hell forever. I loved the song before but now it has a whole new depth to it. Listen to the words.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPacHTBavoc


"Home By The Sea"


Creeping up the blind side, shinning up the wall
stealing thru the dark of night
Climbing thru a window, stepping to the floor
checking to the left and the right
Picking up the pieces, putting them away
something doesn't feel quite right

Help me someone, let me out of here
then out of the dark was suddenly heard
welcome to the Home by the Sea

Coming out the woodwork, thru the open door
pushing from above and below
shadows but no substance, in the shape of men
round and down and sideways they go
adrift without direction, eyes that hold despair
then as one they sigh and they moan

Help us someone, let us out of here
living here so long undisturbed
dreaming of the time we were free
so many years ago
before the time when we first heard
welcome to the Home by the Sea

Sit down Sit down
as we relive our lives in what we tell you

Images of sorrow, pictures of delight
things that go to make up a life
endless days of summer longer nights of gloom
waiting for the morning light
scenes of unimportance, photos in a frame
things that go to make up a life

Help us someone, let us out of here
cos living here so long undisturbed
dreaming of the time we were free
so many years ago
before the time when we first heard
welcome to the Home by the Sea

Sit down Sit down
as we relive out lives in what we tell you
let us relive out lives in what we tell you

Sit down Sit down
cos you won't get away
no with us you will stay
for the rest of your days - Sit down
As we relive our lives in what we tell you
Let us relive our lives in what we tell you





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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 12, 2018, 11:18:34 am
Where in the Old Testament does it talk about Hell and it being eternal?


Just for reference, Jon


40 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9R3TOwnYRc




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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: truthjourney on September 12, 2018, 11:48:38 am
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.

Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort and freedom I have with it is because I was never really indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and i’m Just weird lol. I don’t think that I’m deeper than anyone, I just look at things a different way than many I guess.
Have you heard about what many Christian churches are doing on Halloween? They are having what they call "Hell Night" right inside the church. Their purpose which they have admitted to is to traumatize and instill fear into people to get saved. They turned the church into a gruesome display of death, evil and the torments of hell.

A few years ago, my daughter was invited by a friend to go to his church that was having what they call "Hell Night" on Halloween. My daughter asked me if I wanted to go and my answer was immediate and quick, absolutely not. But my granddaughter agreed to go with my daughter. I had no say so on the matter. I couldn't stop my daughter and granddaughter from going to that church's "Hell Night".

They came back and were telling me about what had happened there which I already had a good idea that it was going to be that way and that's the reason I didn't want to go. The main reason that I didn't want to go is because I know that Halloween is probably the highest satanic day in the year. And it certainly has no place in a Christian church.

My granddaughter was a young teenager at the time and she was telling me how these very young children were so traumatized by what they were seeing and experiencing that they were crying and very frightened. I imagine that those children had nightmares about that for awhile

This had a very negative effect on my granddaughter and has given her the wrong impression of what a Christian church is, what a Christian is, what Christianity is, and above all, what God is like and who He really is. To this day, she wants nothing to do with Christianity.

.

Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 12, 2018, 01:21:03 pm
Where in the Old Testament does it talk about Hell and it being eternal?


Just for reference, Jon


40 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9R3TOwnYRc




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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Ok, cool PJ thanks! i’ll Look into it and see where the annihilationists get their ideas from and give em the good ole A-B comparison as best I can lol
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 12, 2018, 01:34:14 pm
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.

Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort and freedom I have with it is because I was never really indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and i’m Just weird lol. I don’t think that I’m deeper than anyone, I just look at things a different way than many I guess.
Have you heard about what many Christian churches are doing on Halloween? They are having what they call "Hell Night" right inside the church. Their purpose which they have admitted to is to traumatize and instill fear into people to get saved. They turned the church into a gruesome display of death, evil and the torments of hell.

A few years ago, my daughter was invited by a friend to go to his church that was having what they call "Hell Night" on Halloween. My daughter asked me if I wanted to go and my answer was immediate and quick, absolutely not. But my granddaughter agreed to go with my daughter. I had no say so on the matter. I couldn't stop my daughter and granddaughter from going to that church's "Hell Night".

They came back and were telling me about what had happened there which I already had a good idea that it was going to be that way and that's the reason I didn't want to go. The main reason that I didn't want to go is because I know that Halloween is probably the highest satanic day in the year. And it certainly has no place in a Christian church.

My granddaughter was a young teenager at the time and she was telling me how these very young children were so traumatized by what they were seeing and experiencing that they were crying and very frightened. I imagine that those children had nightmares about that for awhile

This had a very negative effect on my granddaughter and has given her the wrong impression of what a Christian church is, what a Christian is, what Christianity is, and above all, what God is like and who He really is. To this day, she wants nothing to do with Christianity.

.

Sorry TJ, I tried to hit the “Like” button and hit dislike instead, and I don’t know how to undo it. I think that i’ve Heard of “hell night” like that before but have never known of it being done around here. The idea may very well have been intended positively but I don’t see it actually doing much good.

I can understand how it could have negative effect on Christianity more frequently than doing any harm. Scaring people to Jesus just seems really insensitive and backwards to me. I can understand that there is consequences that God has outlined for the disobedient, but threatening them with Hell and Dangling reward are actually detrimental to why Christians become Christians. We want people to genuinely love God, not just Go to heaven or be afraid of death. That’s my opinion anyway, a Christian can be a Christian for the wrong reasons and some could Be in for a nasty surprise in the future with some of the thinking that is being perpetrated. Good intent can still backfire if it reinforces the wrong line of thinking. There’s a balance and it can become off kilter very easily.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: truthjourney on September 13, 2018, 09:17:57 am
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.

Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort and freedom I have with it is because I was never really indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and i’m Just weird lol. I don’t think that I’m deeper than anyone, I just look at things a different way than many I guess.
Have you heard about what many Christian churches are doing on Halloween? They are having what they call "Hell Night" right inside the church. Their purpose which they have admitted to is to traumatize and instill fear into people to get saved. They turned the church into a gruesome display of death, evil and the torments of hell.

A few years ago, my daughter was invited by a friend to go to his church that was having what they call "Hell Night" on Halloween. My daughter asked me if I wanted to go and my answer was immediate and quick, absolutely not. But my granddaughter agreed to go with my daughter. I had no say so on the matter. I couldn't stop my daughter and granddaughter from going to that church's "Hell Night".

They came back and were telling me about what had happened there which I already had a good idea that it was going to be that way and that's the reason I didn't want to go. The main reason that I didn't want to go is because I know that Halloween is probably the highest satanic day in the year. And it certainly has no place in a Christian church.

My granddaughter was a young teenager at the time and she was telling me how these very young children were so traumatized by what they were seeing and experiencing that they were crying and very frightened. I imagine that those children had nightmares about that for awhile

This had a very negative effect on my granddaughter and has given her the wrong impression of what a Christian church is, what a Christian is, what Christianity is, and above all, what God is like and who He really is. To this day, she wants nothing to do with Christianity.

.

Sorry TJ, I tried to hit the “Like” button and hit dislike instead, and I don’t know how to undo it.
That's okay. Don't worry about it.
 
Quote
I think that i’ve Heard of “hell night” like that before but have never known of it being done around here. The idea may very well have been intended positively but I don’t see it actually doing much good.
I see it doing more harm than good. I can't imagine any good coming from something like that.

Quote
I can understand how it could have negative effect on Christianity more frequently than doing any harm. Scaring people to Jesus just seems really insensitive and backwards to me. I can understand that there is consequences that God has outlined for the disobedient, but threatening them with Hell and Dangling reward are actually detrimental to why Christians become Christians. We want people to genuinely love God, not just Go to heaven or be afraid of death. That’s my opinion anyway, a Christian can be a Christian for the wrong reasons and some could Be in for a nasty surprise in the future with some of the thinking that is being perpetrated. Good intent can still backfire if it reinforces the wrong line of thinking. There’s a balance and it can become off kilter very easily.
I think I read somewhere it was started by Jerry Falwell. I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of people who use fear tactics like this on judgement day or in the shoes of religious leaders who have led people astray and abused the members of their churches.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Billy Evmur on September 15, 2018, 07:47:15 am
Thing is, nobody really sees the inner man, but God does.

We see the outer person, I mean if you were to sit opposite Kim Yun Un on the train, would you think he was such a bad fellow?

What must the inner man look like, take a child raper or murderer, I scarcely can take those things on board, what does the inner man look like?

I don't think the Lord was just hurling epithets when He called His opponents vipers. In fact [in my own sweet way] I believe vipers are created for just the purpose to warn mankind of how the devil operates, what he is like.

Can you love a viper? you can love a dove. A sheeps you can love, but not a goat, how different wheat is from weeds.

How sated in evil some people are, it's frightening. But God sees it, He calls it.

I don't know all that is going to happen, there is outer darkness as well as the lake of fire, who knows?

Above all I believe in a wider mercy, there will be a new earth as well as a new heavens, the meek will inherit the earth.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 22, 2018, 04:53:45 pm
So i’m Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential problem and I don’t know if it’s been pointed out elsewhere.

With full access to  your consciousness, you would have access to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you weren’t so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly be tormented for all eternity? If they aren’t subject to that torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea of Jesus? I don’t think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to not be a selfish jerk, but i’m Sure it’s a pretty common way. So I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal torment.

On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially soothing information, is that person fully themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have been before they were altered for the torment?
If I get what you're saying, having the ability to think in hell while being fully conscience would make it possible to overcome the torment to a degree? I have had the same type thoughts thinking of course if I go to hell. I thought I guess over that much time of being fully aware in hell I would learn to live with it. I would adapt and accept my fate. More to come on this but I have to run.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 22, 2018, 07:46:56 pm
If I get what you're saying, having the ability to think in hell while being fully conscience would make it possible to overcome the torment to a degree? I have had the same type thoughts thinking of course if I go to hell. I thought I guess over that much time of being fully aware in hell I would learn to live with it. I would adapt and accept my fate. More to come on this but I have to run.

Actually, thinking like that is right on topic P.J.! What keeps the suffering fresh and eternally tormenting if we are conscious to the capacity that we are in our daily lives, especially if we are not just caught up in our own misery? I don’t believe the lake of fire can work like most people imagine it, there just seems to be too many “loopholes in the logic”. I’m not saying that Torment in the lake of fire isn’t someone’s fate, but that it does not logically work in the way we typically think that it would. Something has to be changed in how we perceive it to be a truly viable eternal punishment.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 22, 2018, 07:57:24 pm
If I get what you're saying, having the ability to think in hell while being fully conscience would make it possible to overcome the torment to a degree? I have had the same type thoughts thinking of course if I go to hell. I thought I guess over that much time of being fully aware in hell I would learn to live with it. I would adapt and accept my fate. More to come on this but I have to run.

Actually, thinking like that is right on topic P.J.! What keeps the suffering fresh and eternally tormenting if we are conscious to the capacity that we are in our daily lives, especially if we are not just caught up in our own misery? I don’t believe the lake of fire can work like most people imagine it, there just seems to be too many “loopholes in the logic”. I’m not saying that Torment in the lake of fire isn’t someone’s fate, but that it does not logically work in the way we typically think that it would. Something has to be changed in how we perceive it to be a truly viable eternal punishment.
I agree. Each day would have to be a brand new day of suffering and torment with no memory of the previous days it seems. That may be way off but different problems arise in simply tormenting someone and burning them with fire and brimstone 24/7.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 22, 2018, 08:07:55 pm
I agree. Each day would have to be a brand new day of suffering and torment with no memory of the previous days it seems. That may be way off but different problems arise in simply tormenting someone and burning them with fire and brimstone 24/7.
Exactly, so for it to work AT ALL, it can’t work anything like we’ve always assumed it does, there are just way too many problems there. It seems so simple and so terrifying a trope, until you actually think about it. The lake of fire has to be immensely worse than we think it is for it to be any kind of punishment at all. We also need to be reminded of why we suffer, so the previous memories of torment can’t be eradicated from the mind, because that would lesson the burden.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 22, 2018, 08:16:09 pm
I agree. Each day would have to be a brand new day of suffering and torment with no memory of the previous days it seems. That may be way off but different problems arise in simply tormenting someone and burning them with fire and brimstone 24/7.
Exactly, so for it to work AT ALL, it can’t work anything like we’ve always assumed it does, there are just way too many problems there. It seems so simple and so terrifying a trope, until you actually think about it. The lake of fire has to be immensely worse than we think it is for it to be any kind of punishment at all. We also need to be reminded of why we suffer, so the previous memories of torment can’t be eradicated from the mind, because that would lesson the burden.
Believe me, I've thought a lot about death and hell. The only conclusion I can draw is that I don't die. How bad can the suffering and torment be? It's not bad enough to kill me, I can't stop it, I must accept it and it lasts forever. I have nothing to fear at that point, no mystery to solve, no surprises maybe. Unless each day starts and you begin remembering all the evil we did, lol.

Then it gets to the question of what exactly determines whether I go to hell. In 1st grade I asked the teacher, a nun about how many sins gets you to hell? You never get a straight answer with a straightforward question like that, especially a kid. I had another question for a different nun and asked if I was on my way to confession but got hit by a car out front and killed what would happen? She said I'd go to hell, point blank. I did not believe her, lol.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 22, 2018, 09:51:39 pm
Believe me, I've thought a lot about death and hell. The only conclusion I can draw is that I don't die. How bad can the suffering and torment be? It's not bad enough to kill me, I can't stop it, I must accept it and it lasts forever. I have nothing to fear at that point, no mystery to solve, no surprises maybe. Unless each day starts and you begin remembering all the evil we did, lol.

Then it gets to the question of what exactly determines whether I go to hell. In 1st grade I asked the teacher, a nun about how many sins gets you to hell? You never get a straight answer with a straightforward question like that, especially a kid. I had another question for a different nun and asked if I was on my way to confession but got hit by a car out front and killed what would happen? She said I'd go to hell, point blank. I did not believe her, lol.

Our topic does throw doubt on what amount of physical pain would be effective to a soul capable of rational thought, there has to be a maximum threshold somewhere and once you’ve had the worst, it can’t be any worse, no matter how long eternity is. If it’s incremental, you’d have to have the comfort of the easier punishments wiped from your mind. I think most of the actual torment would have to be psychological to have any kind of lasting effects. Again, a rational mind would have to be augmented into a state of irrational thought for this to work for any length of time, I think anyway.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 23, 2018, 07:23:04 am
Believe me, I've thought a lot about death and hell. The only conclusion I can draw is that I don't die. How bad can the suffering and torment be? It's not bad enough to kill me, I can't stop it, I must accept it and it lasts forever. I have nothing to fear at that point, no mystery to solve, no surprises maybe. Unless each day starts and you begin remembering all the evil we did, lol.

Then it gets to the question of what exactly determines whether I go to hell. In 1st grade I asked the teacher, a nun about how many sins gets you to hell? You never get a straight answer with a straightforward question like that, especially a kid. I had another question for a different nun and asked if I was on my way to confession but got hit by a car out front and killed what would happen? She said I'd go to hell, point blank. I did not believe her, lol.

Our topic does throw doubt on what amount of physical pain would be effective to a soul capable of rational thought, there has to be a maximum threshold somewhere and once you’ve had the worst, it can’t be any worse, no matter how long eternity is. If it’s incremental, you’d have to have the comfort of the easier punishments wiped from your mind. I think most of the actual torment would have to be psychological to have any kind of lasting effects. Again, a rational mind would have to be augmented into a state of irrational thought for this to work for any length of time, I think anyway.
Yes, it is a deeply complicated topic and all psychological in this life. There are many scenarios to explain eternal physical pain and suffering to the point of our limits but it would have to be more psychological as you noted. Did you get a chance to listen to that song I posted in this thread by Genesis and look at the lyrics?
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: Jon Wood on September 25, 2018, 10:06:21 am
Believe me, I've thought a lot about death and hell. The only conclusion I can draw is that I don't die. How bad can the suffering and torment be? It's not bad enough to kill me, I can't stop it, I must accept it and it lasts forever. I have nothing to fear at that point, no mystery to solve, no surprises maybe. Unless each day starts and you begin remembering all the evil we did, lol.

Then it gets to the question of what exactly determines whether I go to hell. In 1st grade I asked the teacher, a nun about how many sins gets you to hell? You never get a straight answer with a straightforward question like that, especially a kid. I had another question for a different nun and asked if I was on my way to confession but got hit by a car out front and killed what would happen? She said I'd go to hell, point blank. I did not believe her, lol.

Our topic does throw doubt on what amount of physical pain would be effective to a soul capable of rational thought, there has to be a maximum threshold somewhere and once you’ve had the worst, it can’t be any worse, no matter how long eternity is. If it’s incremental, you’d have to have the comfort of the easier punishments wiped from your mind. I think most of the actual torment would have to be psychological to have any kind of lasting effects. Again, a rational mind would have to be augmented into a state of irrational thought for this to work for any length of time, I think anyway.
Yes, it is a deeply complicated topic and all psychological in this life. There are many scenarios to explain eternal physical pain and suffering to the point of our limits but it would have to be more psychological as you noted. Did you get a chance to listen to that song I posted in this thread by Genesis and look at the lyrics?

I read the lyrics the other day but never got around to listening to the song, I may do that later on today, of course I always forget to do what I plan on doing lol. I need a recorder to take down memos lol. My attention span is horrible haha
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 26, 2018, 01:13:49 pm
HELL MISSING FROM ANCIENT TEXTS???


If you've had the pleasure of experiencing the Father's love, or are aware of the great sacrifice He made for us, the thought that someone like Him would allow those that reject His love to burn forever doesn't add up. Many occult leaders and religions have used hell as a scare tactic to keep people in fear and coming back to donate more of their money. However, a quest for truth and an understanding that this doesn't match the love and sacrifices made by our Father, has lead to the truth about this fictitious eternal punishment.


15 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsTlNR35CQE&t=0s&index=106&list=WL




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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on September 29, 2018, 06:33:59 am
God Sends Non-Christians to Hell??? (Dr John Lennox)




5 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOvVnArpB-I&list=WL&index=96&t=0s




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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection, the gospel of our salvation, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -

Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on November 21, 2018, 09:58:28 pm
NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR?


At the Time of the End, the wise shall understand. Dan 12:10

Understanding the expression "No man knows the day or hour" is not possible
by simply taking the English translation literally, because in the book of
Daniel and the Book of Revelation, we are given EXACT descriptions of
timing, relative to KEY events - such as the shutting down of the altar
sacrifices in Jerusalem at the MID-POINT of the 70th week. Dan 9:27

Jesus was asked, "When shall these things be?" Matt 24:3

His answer ties us in to a very specific event (The Abomination of
Desolation) which can be measured on our calendars: "When you therefore
shall see the Abomination Of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him understand:)..." Matt 24:15.

It is now clear that "no man knows the day or hour" does NOT mean "no man
knows the day or hour" as we read it from a modern-day English perspective.

>From his book "Signs In the Heavens" by Avi Ben Mordechai, he devotes a
chapter to explaining what "no man knows the day or hour" truly means from
a rabbinical Hebraic perspective. It is a figure of speech.

The following chapter contains edited excerpts from Avi Ben Mordechai's
commentaries and builds on them aiming to explain that the Holy Bible does
in fact reveal the "day and hour" or "exact timing" of our Lord's Return.

No One Knows the Day or the Hour?

Christians over the centuries have separated themselves from their Hebraic
roots causing the misunderstanding of key Jewish biblical idioms. An idiom
is also a figure of speech. When Y'shua (Jesus) uttered His famous words
concerning the Messianic Era in Mattityahu (Matthew) 24:26,

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father", He used a common Jewish figure of speech referring to a
specific Jewish Festival. In essence He was saying, "I am coming for My
Bride on such and such a day! Be watching!" What day could the Jewish idiom
be referring to? Keep reading!

HEBRAIC ROOTS

Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) was Jewish and lived a
Torah-observant Jewish life. Evidence suggests that He communicated to His
audience in the Hebrew language, in Hebraic ways. What does it mean to
communicate in Hebraic ways?


It means to think and talk like a Jew. In Y'shua's day it meant to speak in the language and idioms of the day.
Those who heard the Lord speak knew what He was saying and usually what He was
alluding to unless He was speaking in parables, which had their own
analogies. Of course, today's generation of believers struggles to
understand His words and concepts.


Speaking, thinking and acting like the
Jewish Rabbi He was helped His mission in bringing the gospel message to
"the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24).

Y'shua was quoted in Mattityahu (Matthew) 8:11 as saying: "I say to you
that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places
at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven".

Since we are talking about Jewish idioms, have you ever considered the meaning of
these words? Specifically, our Lord used and confirmed common Jewish ideas
about the Day of the Lord - the millennium - and its relation to the Feast
of Sukkot (Tabernacles) in Z'kharyah 14.


In speaking, Y'shua referred to
the Festival and its traditional guests of honour, Avraham, Yitzchak and
Ya'acov, called the ushpizin (uoosh-piz-zin) or seven shepherds (exalted
guests), invited into every succah (tabernacle) at the Feast of Sukkot in
the fall of the year.

The seven shepherds in descending order are
1. Avraham (Abraham), 2. Yitzchak (Isaac), 3. Ya'acov (Jacob), 4. Mosheh
(Moses), 5. Aaron, 6. Yosef (Joseph) and 7. HaMelech David (King David).
By mentioning the feast and three of the seven shepherds,

His audience
immediately understood the allusion to the Messianic age - "Millennium" or
"Day" of the Lord.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost" (Luke 19:10).
Again, in this simplistic phrase Y'shua, the Son of Miriyam and Yosef,
spoke of two things: His Deity (by calling Himself the subject of the
prophet Dani'el's vision) and His mission (by calling Himself the One God
Who spoke to Mosheh on Mount Sinai) as it is written in Dani'el and
Yechezk'el (Ezekiel):

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was One like a Son of
Man, coming with the clouds of Heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence (Dani'el 7:13-14).

For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I Myself will search for My sheep
and look after them (Yechezk'el-Ezekiel 34:11ff).

In the Gospel narrative of Luke 23:31, Y'shua said: "For if men do these
things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" In this
verse Y'shua points His audience, who had portions of the writings of the
Prophets memorized, to the verses in Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 20:45 to 21:7.
Without question, Y'shua's hearers knew He referred to Chevlei HaMashiach
or Ya'acov's Trouble in the Great Tribulation and warned His audience that
what they do to Him in hardness of heart now, God will do to the nation in
judgement later.

Y'shua's encounter with Natan'el (Nathanael) is recorded in Yochanan (John)
1:47-48: When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, He said of him, "Here is a
true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false". "How do You know me?"
Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the
fig tree before Philip called you".

Again, our Lord used a strong figure of speech pointing to a widely taught
Jewish expectation concerning the resurrection and the millennium. In
brief, He told Natan'el that he will be alive on the Last Day to inherit
the land promised to Avraham (Bereshith-Genesis 17:8). From Y'shua's words,
Natan'el understood he would participate in the resurrection since "that
Day" was yet future.


This is understood in the first century Jewish figure
of speech, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree", which
refers to life and study of Torah in the millennium (Midrash Rabbah
Genesis, Rabbah Song of Songs).


Y'shua also told Natan'el that he is like
righteous Avraham who received his reward for trusting God. This is
understood because of the phrase, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there
is nothing false". The millennial concept of the fig tree is found
throughout the Tanach including Z'kharyah 3:10:


"In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree", declares the
LORD Almighty. For this reason Natan'el responded emphatically to Y'shua
and His words, saying: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; You are the King of
Israel!"

God through HaMashiach Y'shua spoke to the Jews in many portions and in
many ways (Hebrews 1:1-2) relying upon known figures of speech, common
expectations and direct thoughts from Talmudic and Pharisaic teachings. The
concepts I addressed only scratch the surface, so-to-speak.


Every phrase
and word from the mouth of the Lord meant something to His audience. He
spoke with precision. With that as a basis, let us go on to one of the most
interesting Jewish figures of speech misunderstood by the Church over the
years. It concerns Y'shua's phrase,


"No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". In
context, He refers to the home-taking of His bride, the beginning of the
Messianic era and His millennial reign as King of kings over all the earth.
To understand this concept, we begin by examining its foundation.

ROSH HASHANAH

Chapter Five described the annual Jewish Festival of Trumpets or Rosh
HaShanah - the first day of the seventh month. A few themes linked to this
Jewish festival are resurrection, repentance, kingship, corronation and a
marriage feast.


This chapter shows another theme and convincing proof that
Rosh HaShanah is not only the start of "The Day of the Lord" (Millennium),
but is also the day of the resurrection! It has to do with the moon and its
29-day cycle of renewal.

In this period of slightly less than 30 days, the moon goes from darkness
to light and back to darkness again. This is not a haphazard occurrence
attributed to evolution or science.

God planned it for many reasons, one
being as a picture of resurrection and renewal. With each cycle of nearly
30 days the ancient rabbis understood that the moon was being reborn or
"born again" (Sefard siddur, Mussaf for Shabbat and Shabbat Rosh Chodesh,
p. 509 and 646-648).

NEW MOON

In Y'shua's day, the moon was so important that a Jewish festival was
proclaimed at the beginning of every month (Talmud Tractate Chaggigah 17b;
Shavuot 10a; Arachin 10b). This was called the New Moon Festival and in the
B'rit Chadashah, Rabbi Sha'ul (Paul) makes note of it (Colossians 2:16).
Even in the Tanach, King David provoked King Sha'ul (Saul) over it (1
Shmu'el-Samuel 20:5).


In the coming millennium the gate of the inner court
of the Temple facing east shall be opened on the new moon
(Yechezk'el-Ezekiel 46:1).


And finally in the millennium all nations will
celebrate the New Moon festival every month (Yeshayahu-Isaiah 66:23). It is
obvious from the Hebrew Scriptures that in the millennium God has no plans
to do away with His system.

Since it is so important, exactly what is a new moon? It is the opposite of
a full moon. Every month the moon goes through a complete cycle of renewal
called Rosh Chodesh, the head or beginning of the renewed month. Twelve
times a year on Rosh Chodesh, the moon always starts off with its disk
being very dark to the naked eye.


Over the course of 15 days it gets
brighter and brighter until it finally reaches a full white-faced disk or
full moon. Over the next 15 days it becomes darker and darker and finally
becomes invisible to the naked eye again.

The ancient rabbis saw a great lesson in this. Just as the moon has no
light of its own but receives its light from the sun, so we too have no
light of our own and must receive it from God.


As the moon goes through a
near 30-day cycle of dark to light to dark, so we need constant spiritual
renewal and repentance. Like the moon, we too must be reborn or "born
again" into HaMashiach and constantly renewed through repentance. This is
why God called it a faithful witness in the sky (Mizmor-Psalm 89:37).

If the moon is so important to God, why do we pay so little attention to
it? We have lost touch with God's faithful witness in the sky. But Y'shua
and the people of His day never lost touch with it. And as I previously
noted, not only was the new moon necessary for the Jewish calendar, it was
also a monthly festival celebrated with a feast fit for a king!


So, when
Y'shua said His famous words in Mattityahu-Matthew 24:36, it had
far-reaching implications. Here are the words of Y'shua in a few different
translations:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but
my Father only. (KJV)

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the
Son, but only the Father. (NIV) But of that day and hour knoweth no one,
not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. (ASV)
About the exact time, however, and the hour, none knows - not even the
messengers of Heaven; but My Father alone. (Fenton Modern English
Translation)

Failing to think like Y'shua and taking phrases out of Jewish context can
lead one to misunderstand His words. For example, in many places of the
B'rit Chadashah Y'shua knew the future and talked about it openly. In one
instance He warned His talmidim (disciples) about their future saying,
"See, I have told you ahead of time" (Mattityahu-Matthew 24:25). His
context concerned the tribulation, the destruction of the Temple, the rise
and fall of false messiahs (antichrists), etc.


If He knew the future in
Mattityahu 24:25, and the context concerns the Day of Trouble, why would He
suddenly speak as though He did not know the future in the same context
just 11 verses later in Mattityahu 24:36? Was He confused? Or was He making
perfect sense in light of the customs of the Jews?

Since the subject of our discussion is the new moon and figures of speech,
realize the phrase, "Of that day and hour no man knows" refers to the
sanctification or setting apart of the new moon. Without this
sanctification, the Jews had no way of determining God's "appointed times"
or moedim.

Twelve times a year a new Jewish month (Rosh Chodesh) was announced to the
people. We have no system like it today. We look at a calendar to determine
the first of the month; the Jews, however, looked at the moon.


This system
of chronology was given to the Jews to know precisely when the Holy
festivals (moedim) would fall (there are still eight of them; seven
appointed times and Shabbat). The moon was the faithful Jewish calendar or
witness in the sky and 12 times a year was sanctified as the basis of the
Jewish stellar calendar.

GOD'S APPOINTED TIMES

Because the moon was so important for Jewish date - setting, the authorities
in charge of announcing the new moon in Y'rushalayim took great care to
ensure the first day of the month was announced on time. To correctly
announce the first day of the month, established by the new moon, was one
of the Sanhedrin's greatest responsibilities. They had to ensure the people
knew when the first of the month began 12 times a year! Therefore God said
to the leaders of Israel:

These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you
shall proclaim at the times appointed for them (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:4).

In other words, God gave the Sanhedrin authority to announce and sanctify
the new moon to the people. Its proclamation on earth was supported by God
in Heaven (c.f. Mattityahu 18:18-20 where the Jewish context supports a
believers' Sanhedrin as seen in Acts 15).


As soon as the new moon was
announced, the first day of the month began. Once the beginning of the new
month was established, the festivals and weekly Shabbats for the upcoming
month were sanctified for observance. In Hebrew, those observances have
always been called "appointed  times" or moedim, literally "a sacred and
set time".


From God's perspective, the appointed times belong to Him
(Midrash Rabbah Numbers, Vol 2.21.25, p. 852) and no one has the authority
to change the celebration of an appointed time.


To do so was a serious
matter and great sin. Appointed times had to be kept because of their
Messianic implications.

Further in Vayikrah (Leviticus) 23:4, notice the phrase, "holy
convocation". The phrase in Hebrew is mikraw kodesh, better translated,
"holy convocation and rehearsal". In other words, God's appointed times are
actually "holy rehearsals" set apart to reflect events in the Messianic
era. God said to the people,


"Pay attention! On this day I am going to do
something! Wake-up! The Jews were to know and practice all of God's mikraot
or holy convocations. This is the essence of Rav Sha'ul's words that the
Shabbat, new moons and festivals, "are a shadow of things to come; the body
of Mashiach" (Colossians 2:17).

Twice a year, in the spring and fall, there were several appointed times
and specific days of holy convocation dedicated to the Lord. The new moon
was the key in being able to fulfill those set times, holy convocations and
rehearsals.


For example, when the new moon was announced on the first day
of Nisan, also called Aviv, the people knew when to observe the holy
convocations and set times of the 10th (Shemot-Exodus 12:3), 14th and 15th
(Shemot-Exodus 12:6; Bamidbar-Numbers 33:3), 16th (Vayikrah-Leviticus
23:15), and finally the 21st.


In the same way, when the new moon was
announced on the first day of Tishri also called Ethanim, the people knew
when to observe the Holy convocations of the 1st  (Vayikrah-Leviticus
23:23), 10th  (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:26), 15th  (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:39),
and 22nd  (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:36).


Thus from the announcement of the new
moon to the festival dates which followed, it was only a matter of counting
the right number of days. In a moment you will understand how this applies
to the phrase that Y'shua spoke concerning His coming again.

THE SANHEDRIN AND THE TWO WITNESSES

The Mishnah, also referred to as the Oral Law, dealt with the legal
elements of daily Jewish religious life, in Hebrew called halachah. In the
treasure of the first and second century halachah we find many explanations
to help us understand the Torah particularly in Y'shua's day since it was
still oral then.


In volume two called "moed" or festival, tractate Rosh
HaShanah teaches us about the Sanhedrin and its selection process of two
witnesses who would tell us when the new moon arrived. Once a month the
Sanhedrin discussed when to proclaim the new moon. They did this through
the agency of two witnesses, the element of all legal transactions in
Judaism.

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any
sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the
mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.   Deut 19:15

The men were important because by their witness, Israel celebrated God's
appointed times. They had to be of good character and were always treated
with great honour.


They had special privileges such as authorization to
ride into Y'rushalayim on horseback on the Shabbat to bring the good news
of the new moon festivities! The men had special status because they were
the confirmation that Y'hudah (Judaea)  depended on for the correct timing
of the new month and the festivals.

Rosh HaShanah Chapter 2, Mishnah 5 reads: There was a large court in
Jerusalem called Beth Ya'azek. There all the witnesses used to assemble and
the Beth Din used to examine them. They used to entertain them lavishly
there so that they should have an inducement to come. (The witnesses were
allowed to break the Shabbat travel restrictions for this one purpose lest
they might be reluctant to come and give the essential evidence of the
sighting of the new moon).

Continuing in Chapter 2, Mishnah 6: How do they test the witnesses? The
pair who arrive first are tested first. The senior of them is brought in
and they say to him, tell us how you saw the moon - in front of the sun or
behind the sun? To the north of it or the south? How big was it, and in
which direction was it inclined?


And how broad was it? If he says (he saw
it) in front of the sun, his evidence is rejected. After that they would
bring in the second and test him.


If their accounts tallied, their evidence
was accepted, and the other pairs were only questioned briefly, not because
they were required at all, but so that they should not be disappointed,
(and) so that they should not be dissuaded from coming.

In qualifying the witnesses, the Sanhedrin used the following criteria:
They never arrived at the same time.
They were never questioned at the same time.
There were always two new witnesses each month.

In short, the two qualified witnesses usually stood before the Nassi or
President of the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Court) to give account of the
moon's appearance prior to its becoming total dark (Moed Rosh HaShanah,
Chapter 3, Mishnah 1).


Just before the moon's disk enters total darkness,
there are tiny slivers of white on the edges of the waning disk. These were
called the "horns" of the moon.

Correctly sighting the "horns" (on the
waning crescent) determined the beginning of the new month. Once the two
witnesses were qualified and questioned, if the President (who had
knowledge of astronomy) was convinced their observation was accurate, he
publicly sanctified the start of the new month.

After careful scrutiny to determine the official arrival of the new moon,
the Nassi or President of the Sanhedrin proclaimed Rosh Chodesh with the
words: "Sanctified", and all the people repeat after him, "Sanctified,
sanctified". After the proclamation, the Sanhedrin ordered watchmen on the
nearby hillsides to light fires and thus inform the Jews in all of Y'hudah
(Judaea), Shomron (Samaria), Egypt, Babylon and the galut (diaspora) that
the new month had begun. That started the festival of the New Moon and
counting of the next 29- days to the next new month proclamation.

Again, once the Sanhedrin set Rosh Chodesh, or the beginning of the new
month by sighting the new moon, the rest of the festivals were calculated.
However, the seventh month, Tishri, was particularly important because it
was the only month that had a holy convocation or appointed time on the
first day of the month.


This posed a unique problem. The first day of
Tishri was the appointed time called Rosh HaShanah, the Feast of Trumpets
(Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:24). Yet no one could begin observing the festival
until they heard those famous words from the President of the Sanhedrin,
"Sanctified!"

No one in Israel could plan for the first day of the seventh month Tishri,
called Yom Teruah or the Feast of Trumpets (also called Rosh HaShanah).
When they knew how many days to count to a festival, that would be easy.
But:

HOW COULD THEY PLAN FOR A FESTIVAL THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW AT WHAT DAY OR
HOUR IT WOULD PUBLICALLY BE ANNOUNCED AND THUS BEGIN?

This was unique to Rosh HaShanah and dependent upon the testimony of the
two witnesses. Prophetically, we are informed of two important witnesses
during the Great Tribulation:

And I will give power unto My Two Witnesses, and they will prophesy 1260
days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:3

Of course, anyone could look up into the twilight or early morning sky and,
if they looked hard enough, see the new moon or at least its "horns". And
certainly an astute observer knew when about 29- days were completed since
the previous Rosh Chodesh.

But recall, ONLY THE SANHEDRIN NASSI had the
authority to proclaim the first of Tishri, which was already established as
a technical procedure.


Once proclaimed, the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh
HaShanah) commenced. Until that public announcement by the Nassi, everyone
had to wait before they could begin the observance of the festival. No one
could begin the festival beforehand!


Thus, we can more clearly see the
analogy Jesus made with His words: "But of that day and hour knoweth no
man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" was in regards to
this important festival of Rosh HaShanah.

**********************************************************************

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Non-Jew in the Rich Hebraic Heritage of our Faith.

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Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on June 12, 2019, 04:21:29 am
I don't worry about hell.
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on June 29, 2019, 11:07:27 am
I don't worry about hell.
I concur
Title: Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
Post by: patrick jane on July 11, 2019, 05:48:19 am
I don't worry about hell.
I concur
Indeed.