patrick jane forums
Theology, Anthropology & Archaeology => BIBLE STUDY - From The Late Lori Bolinger => Topic started by: guest24 on April 23, 2020, 07:28:35 am
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Salvation is a process that was established by the promise of GOD that any and every person who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in the Son as their saviour would be saved from the natural and legal consequences of any and all future sin by HIS election, HIS choice, of them to be predestined to be HIS Bride in the heavenly marriage.
The moment we expressed our faith in HIM and the Son, we were 'saved' as a perfectly sure thing though our fall and the start of our living with the reprobate weeds had not yet begun.
again, it is all man's works. is it not.....it is up to man to decide.....
Don't think so.
Blade
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Salvation is a process that was established by the promise of GOD that any and every person who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in the Son as their saviour would be saved from the natural and legal consequences of any and all future sin by HIS election, HIS choice, of them to be predestined to be HIS Bride in the heavenly marriage.
The moment we expressed our faith in HIM and the Son, we were 'saved' as a perfectly sure thing though our fall and the start of our living with the reprobate weeds had not yet begun.
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The question arose because of someone in the OSAS crowd declaring that Jesus could "lose" Judas because he was never saved in the first place because Jesus had not yet died and rose again...something I wholeheartedly disagree with according to how the passage is written.
questions for you to narrow down your thoughts.
1. The disciples: is this in reference to the twelve Apostles or does it consider the thousands of disciples that followed him?
2. If it is for the first eleven (for Judas was not saved at any time), do you have a preference in a particular Apostle.....(i.e. Jesus Half Brother (James) did not believe Jesus was the messiah until the day of his death)?
3. Does your question accept "belief in Jesus CHrist" as being Saved or are they two different events?
Hope you get to feeling better.
Blade
The question was asked because of assertions like you give in option 2...so let me ask you this...where in scripture do you find that Judas was any less saved than the other disciples...oh and yes we are talking about the 12 here, as to where the question came from
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https://youtu.be/3TW0kjy9fkc
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Perhaps not many people look at it this way, but there is a duality to all things in that there is a physical element to everything around us, and then there is the spiritual reality- which offers a broader understanding. Hidden within the mystery of this duality, there exists a polarity. Some people think of this as symmetry which isn't entirely wrong, but you have to understand that it is symmetry in opposition. I don't want to distract from your conversation beyond an example of what I mean...
Without fear, courage doesn't exist.
What I mean is that if you are not afraid, then to act is nothing more than action or response. However if you are filled with fear, then to act is truly courageous. It's bravery. And bravery doesn't ever appear absent of fear. Do you understand?
It is the same with faith. Faith without fear is no faith at all. Another way of saying being afraid within this context is 'doubt.' It's not an oxymoron to say that faith doesn't exist without doubt. Faith is acting despite your doubt-- it is the same as courage (acting despite your fear).
The disciples were saved the moment they were called, not by any act of their own beyond 'turning.'
It's like the proverbial man who fell off the cliff's edge and who is clinging to the branch--- utterly without hope unless someone comes to his aid. The Search Crew arrives looking for him, calling.... and when the man cries out-- "Here! Down here! --he is saved.
He 'hearkens' to the call. He turns toward his salvation... and this is the beginning of repentance. Turning and tuning.
Yes, he must now learn to obey the instructions he is given (grab the rope, secure the harness, trust the Rescuer) but his salvation had come the moment he hearkened the call and cried out.
The disciples were ordinary people in every way. Full of doubt, prone to error and 'saved' not because of what they were, but despite what they were.
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The question arose because of someone in the OSAS crowd declaring that Jesus could "lose" Judas because he was never saved in the first place because Jesus had not yet died and rose again...something I wholeheartedly disagree with according to how the passage is written.
questions for you to narrow down your thoughts.
1. The disciples: is this in reference to the twelve Apostles or does it consider the thousands of disciples that followed him?
2. If it is for the first eleven (for Judas was not saved at any time), do you have a preference in a particular Apostle.....(i.e. Jesus Half Brother (James) did not believe Jesus was the messiah until the day of his death)?
3. Does your question accept "belief in Jesus CHrist" as being Saved or are they two different events?
Hope you get to feeling better.
Blade
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The question arose because of someone in the OSAS crowd declaring that Jesus could "lose" Judas because he was never saved in the first place because Jesus had not yet died and rose again...something I wholeheartedly disagree with according to how the passage is written.
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My belief has always been that the minute the disciples accepted their mission to learn from Jesus and follow him on his mission they were saved. It is hard for Mr to believe they could serve Jesus if they were not also saved by and through that service.
But that is just how I view it looking at the totality of it.
I agree
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My belief has always been that the minute the disciples accepted their mission to learn from Jesus and follow him on his mission they were saved. It is hard for Mr to believe they could serve Jesus if they were not also saved by and through that service.
But that is just how I view it looking at the totality of it.
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Not sure why you brought the HS into the discussion but yes, thank you
Maybe you will enter one of my many discussions about the HS sometimes.
I did not figure it would answer your question...I really am not sure what you are seeking?
God is and was present at all times by the HS and is a huge part of the salvation you ask about?
Blade
No clue what you are going on about now...but such is life.
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Not sure why you brought the HS into the discussion but yes, thank you
Maybe you will enter one of my many discussions about the HS sometimes.
I did not figure it would answer your question...I really am not sure what you are seeking?
God is and was present at all times by the HS and is a huge part of the salvation you ask about?
Blade
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Not sure why you brought the HS into the discussion but yes, thank you
Maybe you will enter one of my many discussions about the HS sometimes.
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In another thread, it was pointed out that some believe that Judas was not a true believer....this got me wondering when and if the 12 disciples were saved. If no one was saved before the death and resurrection of Christ, what were they (salvation wise) while disciples? If they could only be saved after Christ rose, where is the proverbial sinners prayer that would let us know they got it?
As I see it, we have three options.
1. they were true believers the moment they believed that Christ was the Messiah....which I am leaning towards given that Abraham for example had his belief counted as righteousness.
2. they were not saved until after Christ rose from the dead, but would that mean they were saved the moment He rose and what do we do with the thief on the cross beside Christ?
3. They had to say the sinners prayer like so many churches believe today and I don't see that in scripture.....
What do you all think?
Rem, the Gospel of Christ did not happen until His death, burial and Resurrection. His Half Brother James did not believe in Him until He was on the Cross.
Lori, They believed in Jesus and I am sure they were saved yet they did not receive the Holy Spirit until Acts 2. Like in the OLD Testament, until the Church was born resulting in the indwelling Holy Spirit, the believers in God (Jesus) received His Grace with the Holy Spirit teaching, guiding and protecting them from the outside.
Abraham received God's Grace because He believed? The same tune with a twist in the New Testament.
I don't believe in the sinners prayer. It only is used to help the pastor count heads which is bad unto itself.
Blade
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In another thread, it was pointed out that some believe that Judas was not a true believer....this got me wondering when and if the 12 disciples were saved. If no one was saved before the death and resurrection of Christ, what were they (salvation wise) while disciples? If they could only be saved after Christ rose, where is the proverbial sinners prayer that would let us know they got it?
As I see it, we have three options.
1. they were true believers the moment they believed that Christ was the Messiah....which I am leaning towards given that Abraham for example had his belief counted as righteousness.
2. they were not saved until after Christ rose from the dead, but would that mean they were saved the moment He rose and what do we do with the thief on the cross beside Christ?
3. They had to say the sinners prayer like so many churches believe today and I don't see that in scripture.....
What do you all think?