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Author Topic: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:  (Read 2560 times)

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bernardpyron

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Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
« on: November 07, 2018, 05:01:52 pm »
Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:

και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται καθως γεγραπται ηξει εκ σιων ο ρυομενος και αποστρεψει ασεβειας απο ιακωβ

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: "

Focus on "και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται" "And in this way all Israel shall be saved."

See:  https://biblehub.com/greek/3779.htm
οὕτως, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number  3779. houtós, in this way, thus, so, in this manner.

Houtos refers back to what Paul says in Romans 11, prior to verses 25-26.

Paul begins Romans 11 by talking about the remnant of Israel in verses 1-6.  He says in Romans 11: 5-6 that "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6.  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Here he establishes that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel has become part of God's elect by grace.

Then in Romans 11: 11-12 he brings in the Gentiles and says in Romans 11: 12: " Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"  "Them" is Old Covenant Israel.

Then in Romans 11: 20-23   he says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21.  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.  22.  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23.  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be "graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Paul is saying all along in Romans 11 that the elect of God is made up of both Gentiles and Jews who have been made into the elect by their faith.

So in Romans 11: 26 when he says in this way all Israel shall be saved he does not mean that only those of the literal, physical bloodline from Abraham will be saved.  He  said as early as Romans 11:  6 that the elect are saved by grace.

The Literalist "Hermeneutic" of dispensationalism may help make dispensationalists  unable to see that Romans 11: 26 refers back to Paul's including the elect Gentiles and elect Jews in one unified group, since Paul uses the word "Israel" which for dispensatonalists apparently can mean only Old Covenant Israel.   The "Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16 could help dispensationalists understand this "All Israel" in Romans 11: 26.  But the separation between Old Covenant Israel and the Church is so strong in dispensationalism that this is a difficult stretch to see for  dispensationists.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 05:05:30 pm by bernardpyron »

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patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Bernard Pyron

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Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2018, 04:32:50 pm »
He says that Paul reveals a mystery and something new not said before in II Corinthians 5: 17. and Paul also  talks about a new creature also in Galatians 6: 15. 

But - is Paul not explaining what being born again in John 3: 1-6 means in a more specific way in II Corinthians 5: 17 and in Galatians 6: 15?

And in Romans 12: 2 Paul in saying that we should be  transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is another way of explaining what is meant by being born again.

This guy is dividing scripture according to a church theology - dispensationalism - which he does not mention, at least not in the part I listed to.  He is dividing scripture into Paul's revelation and other New Testament writers who do not talk about a New Creature.  This dividing of scripture is part of an explaining of a systematic  church theology which came on the scene from John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer - and others. 

The theology focuses more on dividing scripture up to fit this systematic theology than it is concerned with presenting the Gospel of Christ in a way which actually does produce New Creatures.

Reformation "theology" did not try to present such a systematic theology based upon the opening postulate that God has two groups of the elect and two different programs.

Rather one thing Reformation "theology" tried  to do was to inspire people to become born again as New Creatures by the Gospel through the Spirit.

Look at what John Calvin  says about Galatians 6: 15 - "https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/galatians-6.htm

"The reason why he is crucified to the world, and the world to him, is, that in Christ, to whom he is spiritually united, nothing but a new creature is of any avail. Everything else must be dismissed, must perish. I refer to those things which hinder the renewing of the Spirit. “If any man be in Christ” says he, “let him be a new creature.” (2 Corinthians 5:17.) That is, if any man wishes to be considered as belonging to the kingdom of Christ, let him be created anew by the Spirit of God; let him not live any longer to himself or to the world, but let him be raised up to “newness of life.” (Romans 6:4.) His reasons for concluding that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any importance, have been already considered. The truth of the gospel swallows up, and brings to nought, all the shadows of the law. "

"And upon the Israel of God (101) This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, — and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith, (Galatians 3:29,) and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church. On the contrary, the name and lineage are the sole boast of Israel according to the flesh; and this led the apostle to argue in the Epistle to the Romans, that “they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.” (Romans 9:6.) "
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patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Bladerunner

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Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 07:48:02 pm »
Dispensationalism Vs. Covenant Theology


What are the differences between dispensationalists and those who believe in covenant theology?


19 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5E1FA5kCFk&list=WL&index=8&t=0s





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My Take:

Well, The speaker does characterize the covenant theology as it really is!

However, as a dispensationist (or he appears to be one), he forgets how to literally read the bible. Especially when it pertains to the election of the Remnant of Israel and a few other areas of millennium.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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bernardpyron

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Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 07:54:19 pm »
Zechaiah 12: 10 says "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

I have seen Zechariah 12: 10 quoted before as a defense of dispensationalism's postulate that Old Covenant Israel  remains the Chosen People of God.
and as a support for the dispensationalist interpretation of Romans 11: 26 that Israel must refer to the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, or Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18).

But like Amos  9: 11-12, and some other Old Testament prophecies, such as Micah 4: 6-7. Zechariah 12: 10 is an Old Testament prophecy of the restoration of Old Covenant Israel.

James deals very briefly with Amos 9: 11-12 in Acts 15: 14-18:  "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15.     And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16.     After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17.     That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18.     Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

James says the words of the Old Testament prophets agree that God was to include the Gentiles in his people.

Amos 9: 11-12 in the King James Version says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12.     That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."   There is nothing about the Gentiles seeking after the Lord in the King James Version for Amos 9: 11-12, which is interesting.

This probably means that James was using the Septuagint, which says for Amos 9: 11-12, " In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek [me], saith the Lord who does all these things."

The Septuagint for Amos 9: 11-12 does say the gentiles will seek God.

Note thought that James says the prophets - of the Old Testament - not just Amos 9: 11-12 agree that God was to include the Gentiles in his people.Zechariah 12: 10 does not say that God is to include the Gentiles as part of his people.

MIcah 4: 6-7 says "In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7.     And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever."

Micah 4: 6-7 in the Septuagint says "In that day, saith the Lord, I will gather her that is bruised, and will receive her that is cast out, and those whom I rejected. 7 And I will make her that was bruised a remnant, and her that was rejected a mighty nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Sion from henceforth, even for ever."

James may mean than all the Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of Old Covenant Israel agree that in that restoration God was to include Gentiles, which suggests that this restoration is the New Covenant itself.

The question is why would Christians be drawn to a man made theology which focuses more on the multitude of physical Old Covenant Israel than it does on Jesus Christ and his Gospel which is able to transform people into new creations.








« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 07:57:01 pm by bernardpyron »
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Bladerunner

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Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 09:19:26 pm »
Zechaiah 12: 10 says "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

I have seen Zechariah 12: 10 quoted before as a defense of dispensationalism's postulate that Old Covenant Israel  remains the Chosen People of God.
and as a support for the dispensationalist interpretation of Romans 11: 26 that Israel must refer to the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, or Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18).

But like Amos  9: 11-12, and some other Old Testament prophecies, such as Micah 4: 6-7. Zechariah 12: 10 is an Old Testament prophecy of the restoration of Old Covenant Israel.

James deals very briefly with Amos 9: 11-12 in Acts 15: 14-18:  "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15.     And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16.     After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17.     That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18.     Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

James says the words of the Old Testament prophets agree that God was to include the Gentiles in his people.

Amos 9: 11-12 in the King James Version says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12.     That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."   There is nothing about the Gentiles seeking after the Lord in the King James Version for Amos 9: 11-12, which is interesting.

This probably means that James was using the Septuagint, which says for Amos 9: 11-12, " In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek [me], saith the Lord who does all these things."

The Septuagint for Amos 9: 11-12 does say the gentiles will seek God.

Note thought that James says the prophets - of the Old Testament - not just Amos 9: 11-12 agree that God was to include the Gentiles in his people.Zechariah 12: 10 does not say that God is to include the Gentiles as part of his people.

MIcah 4: 6-7 says "In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7.     And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever."

Micah 4: 6-7 in the Septuagint says "In that day, saith the Lord, I will gather her that is bruised, and will receive her that is cast out, and those whom I rejected. 7 And I will make her that was bruised a remnant, and her that was rejected a mighty nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Sion from henceforth, even for ever."

James may mean than all the Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of Old Covenant Israel agree that in that restoration God was to include Gentiles, which suggests that this restoration is the New Covenant itself.

The question is why would Christians be drawn to a man made theology which focuses more on the multitude of physical Old Covenant Israel than it does on Jesus Christ and his Gospel which is able to transform people into new creations.

bernardpyron , God has TWO plans. One for the Remnant of Israel and One for the Church (Body/Bride of Jesus Christ). They just happen to take place in two different dispensation periods.

Keep in mind that the first believers of the Church was all Jews until Cornelius.  For some 1900+ years believers from all over the earth have joined the Body of Jesus to become His future Bride. This includes all peoples.

Once the Church is removed from this earth, the anti-christ will be made public and there will be several years of tribulation including Daniel's70th week which will end in a 1000 Year reign of Jesus Christ on David Throne ON EARTH.

At this time, there are no believers on earth except the 144,000 who will bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world.

For those people who lived and survived in the various nations of the world (except Israel), who survive Daniel's 70th week and the Sheep and Goat Judgement will live on earth during the Millennium.

Those Jews that God calls, will follow the instructions given to them and flee Jerusalem. During this time, as prophesied in Rev. 12, Satan will try to kill all of them as they flee toward the mountains to the south were Petra awaits.

Those saved will be only one third of the population of Israel as the other 2/3 have been killed for their unbelief. We see this in Isa 28:14-18 where they make a covenant with the anti-chrtist. WOE to them.

Thus, 'All of Israel' will be saved and will live during the millennium.

Yes, The New Covenant will apply here as we see in: Heb 10:16 and

Heb 8:10:"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

Blade





1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2020, 03:17:36 pm »
fascinating
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

 

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