+- +-

+- User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 119
Latest: Bella_777
New This Month: 2
New This Week: 1
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 17081
Total Topics: 874
Most Online Today: 255
Most Online Ever: 771
(July 30, 2019, 01:13:39 am)
Users Online
Members: 1
Guests: 81
Total: 82

Author Topic: The ancient debacle settled  (Read 1242 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
The ancient debacle settled
« on: May 01, 2020, 04:32:52 am »
Are we saved by grace alone through faith as a free gift or by works which we have done, either before or after we are saved? The bible never contradicts itself in doctrine so how does this seemingly endless argument arise, it has tormented the church as soon as Paul's footsteps receded from the outskirts of Galatia with the arrival of new [seemingly] more authentic apostles.


The problem arises because a doctrine has been taken out of bible. You can't do that, it will knock every other doctrine out of kilter and the picture becomes mis-shapen.


In the 4th century the church, which was the true church but with bishops who had usurped the leadership and Headship of Christ made a dirty deal with the Roman government which they call the "Peace of the church" it was done in secret so we do not know all the details. We do know that the Roman government stopped persecuting the church and that the church allied itself to Rome to undermine and defeat the Byzantine empire ... the alliance lasted a good many centuries after and national churches to this day are mere puppets of the political power.


To this day their clergy dress as Roman senators of the 4th century. So although they acted secretly if you have spiritual eyes you can trace back to where the church committed serious sin.


Now up until this time the church believed in the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth with his saints after His return. But Rome also aspired to reign through their empire for a 1,000 years, in fact Rome was known as the eternal city, but at a council of bishops it was declared that the church no longer believed this doctrine and it was dropped.




« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 09:10:55 am by Billy Evmur »
Have faith in God

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2020, 09:01:46 am »
Are we saved by grace alone through faith as a free gift or by works which we have done, either before or after we are saved? The bible never contradicts itself in doctrine so how does this seemingly endless argument arise, it has tormented the church as soon as Paul's footsteps receded from the outskirts of Galatia with the arrival of new [seemingly] more authentic apostles.


The problem arises because a doctrine has been taken out of bible. You can't do that, it will knock every other doctrine out of kilter and the picture becomes mis-shapen.


In the 4th century the church, which was the true church but with bishops who had usurped the leadership and Headship of Christ made a dirty deal with the Roman government which they call the "Peace of the church" it was done in secret so we do not know all the details. We do know that the Roman government stopped persecuting the church and that the church allied itself to Rome to undermine and defeat the Byzantine empire ... the alliance lasted a good many centuries after and national churches to this day are mere puppets of the political power.


To this day their clergy dress as Roman senators of the 4th century. So although they acted secretly if you have spiritual eyes you can trace back to where the church committed serious sin.


Now up until this time the church believed in the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth with his saints after His return. But Rome also aspired to reign through their empire for a 1,000 years, in fact Rome was known as the eternal city, but at a council of bishops it was declared that the church no longer believed this doctrine and it was dropped.




I am going to lock this topic for now because I want to develop it before opening it for debate. So ... patience please.


So how does this effect doctrine of salvation by works which we have done vs salvation by free grace alone?
[size=78%][/size]
[size=78%][/size]I count myself a believer in the Sovereign free grace doctrines or Reformed doctrines, I believe in bible predestination and election and I believe in the eternal security of the saints. But I have a bugbear for I have never seen preachers adequately deal with certain gospel teachings which do seem to suggest those being rewarded are being rewarded for the deeds they have done in the body.[size=78%][/size]



Take for example the LAST JUDGEMENT of Matthew 25 which certainly corresponds with the GREAT THRONE JUDGEMENT. We see that the righteous sheep on our Lord's right hand are rewarded because they fed the hungry and clothed the naked etc.

Now you have to picture this in your mind.

We see the Lord gathered together with His holy ones, the word for holy ones is sacredos, it can mean either saints or it can mean angels. This presented Catholic St Jerome with a dilemma for he being sure there was one holy catholic church felt sure he had espied her in the righteous sheep. He knew for sure there were not 2 churches, both the holy ones who came with the Lord and the righteous sheep who the Lord set upon His right hand. So he translated sacredos as holy angels and every subsequent translator has copied him.



if the Millennium doctrine had not been dropped St. Jerome would have known that this cannot be right. The saints, that is the church, cannot possibly the subjects of this judgement for they will have been raptured and will have reigned with the Lord in heaven for 1, 000 years "so shall they ever be with the Lord." whatever judgement the church undergoes it is not this last judgement which will determine people's future destiny.

So who ARE the righteous sheep?

We have the Lord and His saints, as Paul teaches "when He comes to judge the world God will bring us with Him" and we have the sheep set at His right hand and the goats on His left. The sheep receive an eternal reward because they ministered to the needs of the saints.


This paints a vastly different picture to the one we have been passed down through the centuries. We have always supposed that just a few shrivelled souls will be saved and vast bulk of humanity will be cast into the lake of fire.

But God has always worked on 2 programs the heavenly one and the earthly one. He will create a new heavens and a new earth


Blessed are they that hunger for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This paints a picture of a much wider mercy than has been believed in.

If thought about soberly it should be the death knell of hellfire and damnation preaching, not that I do not believe in hell, I do and people should be warned. But I don't believed that billions and billions of human souls will be there. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 09:09:38 am by Billy Evmur »
Have faith in God
Disagree Disagree x 1 View List

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2020, 08:35:50 pm »

So who ARE the righteous sheep?

Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into hell.

Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.

Blade



1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2020, 05:08:13 am »

So who ARE the righteous sheep?

Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into hell.

Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.

Blade


Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.


The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren, that is the church not Israel.


What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He will concede salvation only to that last generation.


This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living and dead unto judgement.


The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the two events.
Have faith in God

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2020, 07:33:23 pm »

So who ARE the righteous sheep?

Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into hell.

Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.

Blade


Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.


The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren, that is the church not Israel.


What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He will concede salvation only to that last generation.


This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living and dead unto judgement.


The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the two events.

Unfortunately for me, I have not read Hal's books and know very little about him. He did get into prophecy trouble which sidelined him for a lot of people. An NO there are not 57.000 interpretations of Daniel's 70th week. There are the others that interprets the Bible according to their worldviews (such as you) and those like me that read the Bible literally, Historically and Grammatically which constitutes a majority of the true believers.

Rem, Jesus WAS and IS a JEW. Those who minister to him, administer to his people and vise-versa.

you said:"He will concede salvation only to that last generation."  Billy, that would leave out NOAH and His kids, Adam and Eve, Moses, KING DAVID?   Your responding to my writings without thinking.

You said:"during the time that it was still recognisably the church."   The RCC was  and has never been the considered the Church, Jesus Built. That Church is spiritual in nature and contains a part of all those true believer's souls. 

The doctrines of the Bible, have never changed....Those of the first century were not believing that Jesus would come back within a few years...Paul solved that with Galatians...

You said:"Since the Protestant church has largely followed the RCC"  Yes, I agree with you. There are still a minority of churches (brick and mortar) tha still follow the Bible as it is written although there have been cracks in their so-called armour when Israel and the Homosexuals are concerned.

Satan is hard at work my friend yet, Jesus tells in Mat 24 that even the elect could be deceived if it were possible...If they are on earth then it would be possible and Only if they are still on earth. Thus, His "it would be possible" would become impossible when He takes His Church of true Believers into the clouds prior to the public knowledge of the "Man of sin", the antichrist.

Yes, it is all Pre-tribulation.

Blade

 
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 04:07:48 am »

So who ARE the righteous sheep?

Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into hell.

Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.

Blade


Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.


The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren, that is the church not Israel.


What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He will concede salvation only to that last generation.


This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living and dead unto judgement.


The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the two events.

Unfortunately for me, I have not read Hal's books and know very little about him. He did get into prophecy trouble which sidelined him for a lot of people. An NO there are not 57.000 interpretations of Daniel's 70th week. There are the others that interprets the Bible according to their worldviews (such as you) and those like me that read the Bible literally, Historically and Grammatically which constitutes a majority of the true believers.

Rem, Jesus WAS and IS a JEW. Those who minister to him, administer to his people and vise-versa.

you said:"He will concede salvation only to that last generation."  Billy, that would leave out NOAH and His kids, Adam and Eve, Moses, KING DAVID?   Your responding to my writings without thinking.

You said:"during the time that it was still recognisably the church."   The RCC was  and has never been the considered the Church, Jesus Built. That Church is spiritual in nature and contains a part of all those true believer's souls. 

The doctrines of the Bible, have never changed....Those of the first century were not believing that Jesus would come back within a few years...Paul solved that with Galatians...

You said:"Since the Protestant church has largely followed the RCC"  Yes, I agree with you. There are still a minority of churches (brick and mortar) tha still follow the Bible as it is written although there have been cracks in their so-called armour when Israel and the Homosexuals are concerned.

Satan is hard at work my friend yet, Jesus tells in Mat 24 that even the elect could be deceived if it were possible...If they are on earth then it would be possible and Only if they are still on earth. Thus, His "it would be possible" would become impossible when He takes His Church of true Believers into the clouds prior to the public knowledge of the "Man of sin", the antichrist.

Yes, it is all Pre-tribulation.

Blade


Your theology is shot through with contradictions. You seem to think that the millennium will be a time of persecution. Who is going to do the persecuting Blade? you have seen that Antichrist is destroyed in the temple at the return of Jesus, you have seen that the devil is locked up for a 1,000 years.


The Jews are not being hunted and slaughtered during the 1,000 years  they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem. They will not need ministering to, they will not be hungry or in prison.


I said YOU have said the righteous sheep were those who ministered to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble but Jeremiah says that during that time Israel will be rest and none shall make him afraid.


It is not wise fro you to contradict Jeremiah.


Moreover you are STILL left with problem I pointed out in the opening post viz-a-viz the righteous sheep are rewarded for works in that they did feed the hungry and clothe the naked etc.


In the Great White Throne judgement which comes after the 1,000 years we see "every man was judged out of those things which are written in the books according to their works.


But the church is made of we who are saved by grace alone through faith.
Have faith in God

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 10:21:03 pm »
Billy, I copied your words and placed them here so I can reply to them,,, I have not changed them..


Your theology is shot through with contradictions. You seem to think that the millennium will be a time of persecution. Who is going to do the persecuting Blade? you have seen that Antichrist is destroyed in the temple at the return of Jesus, you have seen that the devil is locked up for a 1,000 years.

First, the aantichrist is NOT destroyed.. He and the False Prophet are placed in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone eternally at the end of Daniel's 70th week. Yes, according to Rev 19: prior to the Battle of Armageddon, the Angels to Heaven throw Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

The Millennium is not a time of persecution...There will be no wars but only piece. From what I can read from the WORD of GOD, Jesus will turn the earth back in time to the days before the Patriarchs (before the Flood).



The Jews are not being hunted and slaughtered during the 1,000 years  they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem. They will not need ministering to, they will not be hungry or in prison.

Yes, is the answer to this......The Word of GOD tells us this in: Jer 31:34..((KJV).."And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."


I said YOU have said the righteous sheep were those who ministered to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble but Jeremiah says that during that time Israel will be rest and none shall make him afraid.

It is not wise fro you to contradict Jeremiah.   

  I did not know I contradicted Jeremiah..for heaven sakes Billy,

Yes, the Sheep are those nations that help Israel and are not against her...(i.e. Russia, Iran,Germany, any nation that is Anti-Semitic, etc),

Yes, the Lord will make Israel unafraid during the millennium (Jer 30:24). The Jews will have salvation (justification) in mortal bodies at this time.... All Jews from every nation that survives (the Sheep), the Jews will migrate back to Israel. Even Jeremiah tells us " I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you" that Jesus will gather all the Jews scattered through the earth back to Israel. All nations will help Israel in every way.


Moreover you are STILL left with problem I pointed out in the opening post viz-a-viz the righteous sheep are rewarded for works in that they did feed the hungry and clothe the naked etc.

Billy, Rem, there are NO gentile believers on earth at the end of Daniel's 70th week.  ONLY SURVIVORS!

Those Nations of Sheep are not judged at this time, they are allowed to live into the millennium for 100 years....At this time, they have a choice to accept Jesus Christ or Die or be sent to Hell/Hades....Their Children will also have 100 years to decide if they accept Jesus Christ....IF Jesus is accepted, these people will be able to live for the rest of the millennium. It is unclear what will happen to them after the Millennium...Will they become saints or will they simply stay in mortal bodies on the NEW EARTH (that has NO seas)??

Commentary on Hell/Hades. At the end of Daniel's 70th week, Hell is full of souls that have died prior to the millennium. All of these souls are awaiting the White Throne Judgement after the 1,000 millennium of Jesus Christ Reign on Earth.



In the Great White Throne judgement which comes after the 1,000 years we see "every man was judged out of those things which are written in the books according to their works.


But the church is made of we who are saved by grace alone through faith.

All those that are in HELL/Hades will be judged at this time....All those that have died during the millennium will be judged at this time...It appears those Gentiles (ONLY) that live through the Millennium will also be judged at this time.

The Jews that live in the Millennium and it is apparent that includes their children. The Bride of Jesus (His Church) will not be judged during this time. They have been given Justtification erasing all sins in the eyes of the Lord.....

The Church was judged at the Bema Seat according to the crowns they were wearing..These Crowns are given according to the WORKS AFTER their Salvation They will not lose their Justification but will be "Ranked" according to their works (again ONLY After Salvation)


I hope this truly does help you Billy...The WORD of GO is very specific. WHY? because He has preserved it for all generations.

Blade

1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2020, 07:08:27 am »
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the bible i.e the Millennium.


The problem I have with you are twofold.


Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture, you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the trinbulation of those days...."


Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord returns he meets his end not his beginning.


He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn to kill him.


Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.


But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none shall make them afraid.


God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who travails but the bride, the church.


2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.


What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30, during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them.


Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet, God at that time will fight against the nations who come up against Israel.


It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord returns. 
Have faith in God

patrick jane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9578
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Research Jesus Christ - Research Flat Earth
  • Location: Homeless in God's Flat Earth
  • Referrals: 41
    • Theology Forums
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2020, 09:41:11 am »
Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
Love Love x 1 View List

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2020, 03:12:51 am »
Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
I do try and I only use the scripture.
Have faith in God

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2020, 11:35:36 am »
Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.

I'll try to address Billy's comments..of May 5, 7:08  am.  a little later this evening..

Have a great day my Brother in Christ.

Blade
 
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Bladerunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • My Friend
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2020, 11:05:01 pm »
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the bible i.e the Millennium.


The problem I have with you are twofold.


Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture, you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the trinbulation of those days...."

First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not see the proof.

Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but not after Daniel's 70th week. 

You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please read the verses here.

In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of verses 8-20.

"For Then
shall be great tribulation

This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...

Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days"   was speaking directly about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat 24:29.......

I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat 24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does not tell us anything.

Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"     

with

1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."     written by Paul and preached to both Jew and Gentile

Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many years apart and both out of context.[/color]

Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord returns he meets his end not his beginning.

]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple. Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple in 70 AD....NONE!.

You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is Also the WORD of GOD..

Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is still here. Look around you Billy.

Then you say when the Jesus  come the 2nd time, he (satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for 1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his end in the lake of fire and brimstone.  Rev 20:2.."And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"


He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn to kill him.

Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.

Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation"   and what are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but they have nothing to do with the tribulations????????Who have you been talking to?[/color]

But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none shall make them afraid.

Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it: Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of  God will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)

 
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who travails but the bride, the church.

Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev 3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."; other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...


2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.

Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"

In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."


As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts therein shall be cut off and die"

We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: "  v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which is in the same time period.   

Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'. Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.



What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30, during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them.

Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at that time shall Michael stand up,  "AT THAT TIME"  refers to what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict (Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

Here the antichrist will have nothing left,  He will die here and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along with his partner the 'False Prophet'.

This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is saved' "and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"

Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that shall be found written in the book."



Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet, God at that time will fight against the nations who come up against Israel.


It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord returns.

I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.

The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000 years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of Gog and Magog.

Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like your version does....



Blade


1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Billy Evmur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Global Moderator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: +1010/-0
  • Referrals: 0
    • Dove on a distant oak tree
Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2020, 04:35:22 am »
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the bible i.e the Millennium.


The problem I have with you are twofold.


Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture, you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the trinbulation of those days...."


[

First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not see the proof.



Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but not after Daniel's 70th week. 

You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please read the verses here.

In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of verses 8-20.

"
For Then[/b] shall be great tribulation

This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...

Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days"   was speaking directly about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat 24:29.......

I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat 24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does not tell us anything.

Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"     

with

1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."     written by Paul and preached to both Jew and Gentile

Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many years apart and both out of context.

Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord returns he meets his end not his beginning.

]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple. Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple in 70 AD....NONE!.

You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is Also the WORD of GOD..

Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is still here. Look around you Billy.

Then you say when the Jesus  come the 2nd time, he (satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for 1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his end in the lake of fire and brimstone.  Rev 20:2..
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn to kill him.

Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.

Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation"   and what are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have you been talking to?

But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none shall make them afraid.

Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it: Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of  God will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)

 
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who travails but the bride, the church.

Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev 3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."; other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...


2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.

Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"

In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."


As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts therein shall be cut off and die"

We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: "  v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which is in the same time period.   

Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'. Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.



What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30, during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them.

Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at that time shall Michael stand up,  "AT THAT TIME"  refers to what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict (Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

Here the antichrist will have nothing left,  He will die here and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along with his partner the 'False Prophet'.

This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is saved'
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"

Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that shall be found written in the book."



Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet, God at that time will fight against the nations who come up against Israel.


It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord returns.

I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.

The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000 years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of Gog and Magog.

Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like your version does....



Blade



I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight of consensus throughout church history is that the church will go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is from man, it is persecution.


The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and God begins dealing through His ancient people again.


In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?


In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in verse 12 He says "But before these"  and He tells them what will happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the endtimes.

I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.

vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.

And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with great ower and glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.

This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.

You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd and scatter the sheep.

God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation they have been dispersed.

In chapter 14.  God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN

THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as when He fought in the day of battle.

It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct and different times.

One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in the second He is fighting against the nations that have come against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations would not have come up against them.

God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time. We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.

You've got it wrong.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 05:12:33 am by Billy Evmur »
Have faith in God

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
38 Replies
8047 Views
Last post September 25, 2020, 08:55:55 pm
by patrick jane
12 Replies
7522 Views
Last post September 13, 2020, 12:07:40 pm
by patrick jane

+-Recent Topics

Being saved... by patrick jane
Today at 01:09:25 pm

CORONAVIRUS - THE PALE HORSE by Bladerunner
Today at 09:27:26 am

Black Spring With Autumn Political Commentary by patrick jane
Today at 12:56:27 am

Freemasons, Jesuits, Illuminati & Lucifer Worship by patrick jane
Today at 12:17:12 am

End Times - Tracking The Signs by patrick jane
Today at 12:17:01 am

Revelation - Last Days by patrick jane
Today at 12:16:16 am

NEW WORLD ORDER SYMBOLS & MEANINGS by ODD TV by patrick jane
Today at 12:15:44 am

Hollywood Occult Symbolism and Conspiracy by patrick jane
Today at 12:15:32 am

Aethereal - Battle for Heaven and Earth by patrick jane
Today at 12:14:50 am

Conspiracy - NWO, NASA and More by patrick jane
Today at 12:14:36 am

Child Abuse Is Not Funny by truthjourney
September 25, 2020, 11:52:56 pm

Trump 2020 - Winning !!! by patrick jane
September 25, 2020, 11:52:02 pm

Politics Today by patrick jane
September 25, 2020, 11:51:51 pm

Re: Trump 2020 - Winning !!! by patrick jane
September 25, 2020, 11:51:25 pm

Re: Politics Today by patrick jane
September 25, 2020, 11:50:52 pm

Creepy Joe Biden by truthjourney
September 25, 2020, 11:30:10 pm

Ministry On Video by Lion Of Judah by patrick jane
September 25, 2020, 10:29:03 pm

WALT DISNEY THE PERVERT OCCULTIST by patrick jane
September 25, 2020, 10:19:01 pm