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Author Topic: The ancient debacle settled  (Read 1149 times)

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Bladerunner

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2020, 09:17:47 am »
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the bible i.e the Millennium.


The problem I have with you are twofold.


Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture, you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the trinbulation of those days...."


[

First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not see the proof.



Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but not after Daniel's 70th week. 

You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please read the verses here.

In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of verses 8-20.

"
For Then[/b] shall be great tribulation

This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...

Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days"   was speaking directly about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat 24:29.......

I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat 24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does not tell us anything.

Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"     

with

1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."     written by Paul and preached to both Jew and Gentile

Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many years apart and both out of context.

Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord returns he meets his end not his beginning.

]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple. Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple in 70 AD....NONE!.

You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is Also the WORD of GOD..

Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is still here. Look around you Billy.

Then you say when the Jesus  come the 2nd time, he (satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for 1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his end in the lake of fire and brimstone.  Rev 20:2..
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn to kill him.

Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.

Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation"   and what are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have you been talking to?

But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none shall make them afraid.

Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it: Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of  God will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)

 
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who travails but the bride, the church.

Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev 3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."; other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...


2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.

Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"

In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."


As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts therein shall be cut off and die"

We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: "  v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which is in the same time period.   

Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'. Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.



What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30, during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them.

Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at that time shall Michael stand up,  "AT THAT TIME"  refers to what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict (Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

Here the antichrist will have nothing left,  He will die here and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along with his partner the 'False Prophet'.

This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is saved'
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"

Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that shall be found written in the book."



Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet, God at that time will fight against the nations who come up against Israel.


It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord returns.

I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.

The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000 years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of Gog and Magog.

Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like your version does....



Blade




***********************May 7, 2020***************


I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight of consensus throughout church history is that the church will go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is from man, it is persecution.


The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and God begins dealing through His ancient people again.


In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?


In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in verse 12 He says "But before these"  and He tells them what will happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the endtimes.

I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.

vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.

And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with great ower and glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.

This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.

You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd and scatter the sheep.

God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation they have been dispersed.

In chapter 14.  God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN

THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as when He fought in the day of battle.

It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct and different times.

One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in the second He is fighting against the nations that have come against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations would not have come up against them.

God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time. We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.

You've got it wrong.

It is obvious, you are still partially blinded. Billy, The Great Tribulation is GOD's WRATH......There is no sense in me continuing..It is obvious you don't understand what you are saying or maybe don't really care....I give up, May God have better results if be his will.


Blade
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:36:09 am by patrick jane »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Billy Evmur

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2020, 01:28:43 am »
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the bible i.e the Millennium.


The problem I have with you are twofold.


Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture, you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the trinbulation of those days...."


[

First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not see the proof.



Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but not after Daniel's 70th week. 

You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please read the verses here.

In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of verses 8-20.

"
For Then shall be great tribulation

This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...

Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days"   was speaking directly about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat 24:29.......

I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat 24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does not tell us anything.

Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"     

with

1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."     written by Paul and preached to both Jew and Gentile

Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many years apart and both out of context.

Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord returns he meets his end not his beginning.

]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple. Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple in 70 AD....NONE!.

You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is Also the WORD of GOD..

Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is still here. Look around you Billy.

Then you say when the Jesus  come the 2nd time, he (satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for 1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his end in the lake of fire and brimstone.  Rev 20:2..
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn to kill him.

Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.

Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation"   and what are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have you been talking to?

But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none shall make them afraid.

Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it: Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of  God will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)

 
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who travails but the bride, the church.

Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev 3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."; other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...


2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.

Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"

In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."


As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts therein shall be cut off and die"

We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: "  v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which is in the same time period.   

Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'. Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.



What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30, during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them.

Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at that time shall Michael stand up,  "AT THAT TIME"  refers to what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict (Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

Here the antichrist will have nothing left,  He will die here and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along with his partner the 'False Prophet'.

This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is saved'
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"

Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that shall be found written in the book."



Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet, God at that time will fight against the nations who come up against Israel.


It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord returns.

I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.

The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000 years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of Gog and Magog.

Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like your version does....



Blade




***********************May 7, 2020***************


I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight of consensus throughout church history is that the church will go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is from man, it is persecution.


The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and God begins dealing through His ancient people again.


In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?


In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in verse 12 He says "But before these"  and He tells them what will happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the endtimes.

I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.

vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.

And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with great ower and glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.

This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.

You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd and scatter the sheep.

God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation they have been dispersed.

In chapter 14.  God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN

THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as when He fought in the day of battle.

It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct and different times.

One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in the second He is fighting against the nations that have come against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations would not have come up against them.

God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time. We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.

You've got it wrong.

It is obvious, you are still partially blinded. Billy, The Great Tribulation is GOD's WRATH......There is no sense in me continuing..It is obvious you don't understand what you are saying or maybe don't really care....I give up, May God have better results if be his will.


Blade


Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation] is only mentioned once by that name it is in Jeremiah 30. YOU say 2/3rds of them will be slaughtered, Jeremiah God says they will be SAVED, Israel will be AT REST and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.... every man shall sit under his fig tree and under his vine ....who shall I believe?


Daniel 12 speaking of the same time says St Michael will stand up and Israel will be delivered. Isaiah says the the same "arise for your light has come ...but deep darkness upon the nations" Ezekiel says the same, Zechariah 14 says the same, God will go forth and fight for Israel as in the day of battle.


You fail discern the difference between when God is scattering Israel and when He is gathering them, when He is punishing them and when He is blessing them, when He is fighting against them and when He is fighting for them.


You jumble up the prophecies that speak about Israel's fall and the prophecies that speak about their rise..
Have faith in God

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2020, 08:09:27 am »
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the bible i.e the Millennium.


The problem I have with you are twofold.


Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture, you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the trinbulation of those days...."


[

First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not see the proof.



Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but not after Daniel's 70th week. 

You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please read the verses here.

In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of verses 8-20.

"
For Then shall be great tribulation

This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...

Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately after the tribulation of those days"   was speaking directly about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat 24:29.......

I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat 24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does not tell us anything.

Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"     

with

1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."     written by Paul and preached to both Jew and Gentile

Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many years apart and both out of context.

Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord returns he meets his end not his beginning.

]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple. Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple in 70 AD....NONE!.

You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is Also the WORD of GOD..

Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is still here. Look around you Billy.

Then you say when the Jesus  come the 2nd time, he (satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for 1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his end in the lake of fire and brimstone.  Rev 20:2..
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn to kill him.

Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.

Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation"   and what are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have you been talking to?

But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none shall make them afraid.

Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it: Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of  God will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)

 
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who travails but the bride, the church.

Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev 3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."; other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...


2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.

Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"

In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."


As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts therein shall be cut off and die"

We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: "  v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which is in the same time period.   

Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'. Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.



What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30, during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them.

Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at that time shall Michael stand up,  "AT THAT TIME"  refers to what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict (Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

Here the antichrist will have nothing left,  He will die here and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along with his partner the 'False Prophet'.

This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is saved'
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"

Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that shall be found written in the book."



Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet, God at that time will fight against the nations who come up against Israel.


It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord returns.

I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.

The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000 years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of Gog and Magog.

Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like your version does....



Blade




***********************May 7, 2020***************


I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight of consensus throughout church history is that the church will go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is from man, it is persecution.


The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and God begins dealing through His ancient people again.


In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?


In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in verse 12 He says "But before these"  and He tells them what will happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the endtimes.

I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.

vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.

And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with great ower and glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.

This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.

You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd and scatter the sheep.

God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation they have been dispersed.

In chapter 14.  God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN

THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as when He fought in the day of battle.

It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct and different times.

One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in the second He is fighting against the nations that have come against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations would not have come up against them.

God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time. We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.

You've got it wrong.

It is obvious, you are still partially blinded. Billy, The Great Tribulation is GOD's WRATH......There is no sense in me continuing..It is obvious you don't understand what you are saying or maybe don't really care....I give up, May God have better results if be his will.


Blade


Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation] is only mentioned once by that name it is in Jeremiah 30. YOU say 2/3rds of them will be slaughtered, Jeremiah God says they will be SAVED, Israel will be AT REST and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.... every man shall sit under his fig tree and under his vine ....who shall I believe?


Daniel 12 speaking of the same time says St Michael will stand up and Israel will be delivered. Isaiah says the the same "arise for your light has come ...but deep darkness upon the nations" Ezekiel says the same, Zechariah 14 says the same, God will go forth and fight for Israel as in the day of battle.


You fail discern the difference between when God is scattering Israel and when He is gathering them, when He is punishing them and when He is blessing them, when He is fighting against them and when He is fighting for them.


You jumble up the prophecies that speak about Israel's fall and the prophecies that speak about their rise..

No, The prophecies are there and GOD wrote them, You are making a mistake removing them, changing them, and adding to them.  See REV 22: 18-19.....     

I wish you would define "ALL ISRAEL", please

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Billy Evmur

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2020, 03:19:13 am »
"All Israel" is difficult to define because Paul doesn't define it or qualify it in any way. I don't think it can mean every single Jew. I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved"


There are things that have to be taken into consideration.


Israel is an ELECT nation and that is important. Election has nothing to do with whether they do good or evil, the only important thing is that God chose them. Even when they did evil God brought good out of it. It was through their disobedience that salvation came to the Gentiles.


Their rejection of Christ was according to God's predeterminate plan and purpose.


I see the picture of it in the life of Joseph how he was despised by his brethren and cast out and to all intents came to a bloody end so far as Israel was concerned. But he became lord of the gentiles and saviour of the world. Finally after a very long time he was reconciled with his brethren ALL Israel He forgave them saying "you meant it for evil but God meant it for good."


So it is with those considerations in mind we have to weigh up what Paul meant by "all Israel"
Have faith in God

Bladerunner

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2020, 11:48:25 pm »
"All Israel" is difficult to define because Paul doesn't define it or qualify it in any way. I don't think it can mean every single Jew. I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved"


There are things that have to be taken into consideration.


Israel is an ELECT nation and that is important. Election has nothing to do with whether they do good or evil, the only important thing is that God chose them. Even when they did evil God brought good out of it. It was through their disobedience that salvation came to the Gentiles.


Their rejection of Christ was according to God's predeterminate plan and purpose.


I see the picture of it in the life of Joseph how he was despised by his brethren and cast out and to all intents came to a bloody end so far as Israel was concerned. But he became lord of the gentiles and saviour of the world. Finally after a very long time he was reconciled with his brethren ALL Israel He forgave them saying "you meant it for evil but God meant it for good."


So it is with those considerations in mind we have to weigh up what Paul meant by "all Israel"

Billy you said:"I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved""

Have you not heard that Jesus is the author of the book and scripture that said that?   Then again maybe you have not heard....

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Bladerunner

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2020, 11:55:35 pm »
"All Israel" is difficult to define because Paul doesn't define it or qualify it in any way. I don't think it can mean every single Jew. I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved"


There are things that have to be taken into consideration.


Israel is an ELECT nation and that is important. Election has nothing to do with whether they do good or evil, the only important thing is that God chose them. Even when they did evil God brought good out of it. It was through their disobedience that salvation came to the Gentiles.


Their rejection of Christ was according to God's predeterminate plan and purpose.


I see the picture of it in the life of Joseph how he was despised by his brethren and cast out and to all intents came to a bloody end so far as Israel was concerned. But he became lord of the gentiles and saviour of the world. Finally after a very long time he was reconciled with his brethren ALL Israel He forgave them saying "you meant it for evil but God meant it for good."


So it is with those considerations in mind we have to weigh up what Paul meant by "all Israel"

Billy you said:"I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved""

Have you not heard that Jesus is the author of the book and scripture that said that?   Then again maybe you have not heard....

Blade

Don't you see, God is taking them through fire to purify them that believe.
He said He would not return until They called His name earnestly.

Only the remnant of Israel are the ones that actually believe. Today there is a whole nation by the name of Israel where the majority of people do NOT believe in the Messiah or Jesus Christ.



 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 05:04:41 am by Billy Evmur »
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Billy Evmur

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2020, 05:02:28 am »
Israel is to be restored. The remnant refers to the apostolic church as Paul says "and so at this present time God has saved a remnant..."


It is the disobediant and unbelieving who will be restored, the faithful remnant do not need to be restored.


They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son and God will pour out upon Israel a spirit of supplication and they will seek Him, ALL Israel. the women by themselves will seek Him and the men by themselves will seek Him.
Have faith in God

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Re: The ancient debacle settled
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2020, 05:35:35 pm »
Israel is to be restored. The remnant refers to the apostolic church as Paul says "and so at this present time God has saved a remnant..."


It is the disobediant and unbelieving who will be restored, the faithful remnant do not need to be restored.


They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son and God will pour out upon Israel a spirit of supplication and they will seek Him, ALL Israel. the women by themselves will seek Him and the men by themselves will seek Him.

Really

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

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