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Author Topic: What Really Happened In Eden  (Read 1165 times)

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Grace_Accepted

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What Really Happened In Eden
« on: April 23, 2019, 08:13:56 am »
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” ~Gen 2:17

I spent a few days in an interesting conversation with one of our agnostics on this forum discussing the philosophy of nihilism as it relates to us. Basically nihilism is extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.

It generally rejects the existence of God and along with everything else. As it relates to man the basic idea is that our past has no substance and is only memories and meanings and our future has no substance only hopes and dreams or despair and hopelessness. At first I rejected this idea outright but the more I thought about it the more I began to see what Friedrich Nietzsche, one of the most famous nihilists was talking about. BUT, I believe they got it slightly wrong.

I believe what they were observing was a godless world and that my friends is nonexistence, a temporary vapor, that will pass away with time. When Adam and Eve rejected God in favor of believing the serpent they plunged themselves into non existence.

Apart from me you can do nothing.

I believe that the first nihilist was Solomon in Ecc 1:1 He states, meaningless, meaningless all is meaningless and proceeds to paint a pointless non-existing picture of mankind. This is a terrible state and yet it makes sense. God is existence and all things connected to Him exist anything apart from him has no existence, no permanence, they, at best, are a temporary illusion with an imaginary future and only a memory of a past tucked onto the folds of their fading grey matter.

Once our race was plunged into non existence it had no way of knowing God any more than Nietzsche could comprehend an absolute morality.

Jesus didn’t use nihilistic terms but used the more understandable terms of life and death. Death is non existence and life is existence. Only God could reach into non existence and bear it that we might chose to exist in Him. As Acts17:28 states, For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

God has to speak us back into being in Him just as he spoke mankind into existence in the beginning.

Only in a divine being would this be possible. It could not happen in just a good man.

Praise God From Whom all blessings flow.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 09:38:33 pm by patrick jane »

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patrick jane

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2019, 08:48:14 pm »
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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patrick jane

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2019, 12:35:06 pm »
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” ~Gen 2:17

I spent a few days in an interesting conversation with one of our agnostics on this forum discussing the philosophy of nihilism as it relates to us. Basically nihilism is extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.

It generally rejects the existence of God and along with everything else. As it relates to man the basic idea is that our past has no substance and is only memories and meanings and our future has no substance only hopes and dreams or despair and hopelessness. At first I rejected this idea outright but the more I thought about it the more I began to see what Friedrich Nietzsche, one of the most famous nihilists was talking about. BUT, I believe they got it slightly wrong.

I believe what they were observing was a godless world and that my friends is nonexistence, a temporary vapor, that will pass away with time. When Adam and Eve rejected God in favor of believing the serpent they plunged themselves into non existence.

Apart from me you can do nothing.

I believe that the first nihilist was Solomon in Ecc 1:1 He states, meaningless, meaningless all is meaningless and proceeds to paint a pointless non-existing picture of mankind. This is a terrible state and yet it makes sense. God is existence and all things connected to Him exist anything apart from him has no existence, no permanence, they, at best, are a temporary illusion with an imaginary future and only a memory of a past tucked onto the folds of their fading grey matter.

Once our race was plunged into non existence it had no way of knowing God any more than Nietzsche could comprehend an absolute morality.

Jesus didn’t use nihilistic terms but used the more understandable terms of life and death. Death is non existence and life is existence. Only God could reach into non existence and bear it that we might chose to exist in Him. As Acts17:28 states, For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

God has to speak us back into being in Him just as he spoke mankind into existence in the beginning.

Only in a divine being would this be possible. It could not happen in just a good man.

Praise God From Whom all blessings flow.
Great post GA, very deep. We have to back to the beginning when we think of existence and non-existence. We do have a tangible past preserved in memories and images in our mind. Our past is real, we were really there and we really experienced this temporary earthly existence up to and including the present. The only way our past can not exist is if we forget  i.e. lose our memories. The past, our own pasts dictate our futures. All future decisions and actions will be based on and the result of what we know from our past.

You seem to focus a lot on Adam and Eve and rightly so. I like your main focus that is in Christ, saved and sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise !!!


Ephesians 1:3-14 KJV -
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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Grace_Accepted

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 11:29:23 pm »
It is true that our past is in our memories but what are memories?  Do they exist? you do not exist yet second from now and you do not exists a second ago.  Your memory only exists in the present.  If our present isn't connected to God, even that is a temporary illusion.

Only in Christ can we exist, that is to live, move and have our being. 

Amen!
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Billy Evmur

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2019, 07:34:21 am »
Interesting thread …. we didn't go back to nothing when we sinned, God created from nothing, but we go back to dust, we were created from dust. Memories and expectation is of the soul which were breathed into us

Was man spiritual in the Garden? does "living souls" indicate spiritual life? I think so. It was our spirit that was slain that day and which must be born again.
Have faith in God
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Grace_Accepted

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2019, 10:43:58 pm »
We did return to nothing and in fact are nothing when we are outside of Christ.  But one must understand the philosophical nature of nothing as it relates to Nihilism in order to get what this post is about.

We are not talking about nothing in the general everyday sense of the word.  Just like people call water vapor steam in the everyday vernacular but in reality steam is not visible.  So it is with the philosophical term nothingness.

If I exist only in the present but have no future existence nor any past existence then do I exist at all or am I a temporal vapor?
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Bladerunner

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2019, 09:01:41 pm »
We did return to nothing and in fact are nothing when we are outside of Christ.  But one must understand the philosophical nature of nothing as it relates to Nihilism in order to get what this post is about.

We are not talking about nothing in the general everyday sense of the word.  Just like people call water vapor steam in the everyday vernacular but in reality steam is not visible.  So it is with the philosophical term nothingness.

If I exist only in the present but have no future existence nor any past existence then do I exist at all or am I a temporal vapor?

I vote for vapor!
Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 04:50:30 am »
Interesting topic.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Ted T.

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2019, 02:08:14 pm »
 
I believe that the first nihilist was Solomon in Ecc 1:1 He states, meaningless, meaningless all is meaningless and proceeds to paint a pointless non-existing picture of mankind.


To be nihilist he would have to believe this nihilism, no? But if he was just presenting the nihilistic pov so he could argue against it with the truth of GOD he would not be a nihilist at all, eh?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 02:21:53 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Ted T.

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2019, 02:21:17 pm »

Interesting thread …. we didn't go back to nothing when we sinned, God created from nothing, but we go back to dust, we were created from dust. Memories and expectation is of the soul which were breathed into us
We refers only to our bodies of dust. WE are really the spirits that GOD put into our bodies to give us human life. In support I suggest  Ecclesiastes 12:7 ...and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Quote
Was man spiritual in the Garden? does "living souls" indicate spiritual life? I think so. It was our spirit that was slain that day and which must be born again.
To understand that soul and spirit are the same is easier if we think of the soul as a spirit enclosed, locked, into a body. The phrase 'became a living soul' referring to an already existing self aware spirit would then mean: became a spirit locked into a new body of dust and became a living (embodied) soul, since a dead person is a disembodied soul or spirit as per Ecclesiastes 12:7.



Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Bladerunner

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Re: What Really Happened In Eden
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2019, 08:25:16 pm »

Interesting thread …. we didn't go back to nothing when we sinned, God created from nothing, but we go back to dust, we were created from dust. Memories and expectation is of the soul which were breathed into us
We refers only to our bodies of dust. WE are really the spirits that GOD put into our bodies to give us human life. In support I suggest  Ecclesiastes 12:7 ...and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Quote
Was man spiritual in the Garden? does "living souls" indicate spiritual life? I think so. It was our spirit that was slain that day and which must be born again.
To understand that soul and spirit are the same is easier if we think of the soul as a spirit enclosed, locked, into a body. The phrase 'became a living soul' referring to an already existing self aware spirit would then mean: became a spirit locked into a new body of dust and became a living (embodied) soul, since a dead person is a disembodied soul or spirit as per Ecclesiastes 12:7.





I'd prefer to think of the soul as having two containers. Flesh-Spirit-Soul.

The soul is who we are. when we die we know we are still who we were
while alive. The story of the Rich man and Lazarus tells us, we know who, why and what we are, we have all of our senses yet the torment of the flames in HELL do not destroy the container we are in (the spirit).

In Heaven, we will know all others and they us.

Blade



1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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