Patrick Jane Forums | Anthropology & Theology

Where in the Old Testament does it talk about Hell and it being eternal?


Just for reference, Jon


40 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9R3TOwnYRc




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Quote from: truthjourney on September 12, 2018, 11:48:38 am

Quote from: Jon Wood on September 12, 2018, 09:09:16 am

Quote from: joechan82 on September 11, 2018, 04:27:19 pm

Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.

Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort and freedom I have with it is because I was never really indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and i’m Just weird lol. I don’t think that I’m deeper than anyone, I just look at things a different way than many I guess.

Have you heard about what many Christian churches are doing on Halloween? They are having what they call "Hell Night" right inside the church. Their purpose which they have admitted to is to traumatize and instill fear into people to get saved. They turned the church into a gruesome display of death, evil and the torments of hell.

A few years ago, my daughter was invited by a friend to go to his church that was having what they call "Hell Night" on Halloween. My daughter asked me if I wanted to go and my answer was immediate and quick, absolutely not. But my granddaughter agreed to go with my daughter. I had no say so on the matter. I couldn't stop my daughter and granddaughter from going to that church's "Hell Night".

They came back and were telling me about what had happened there which I already had a good idea that it was going to be that way and that's the reason I didn't want to go. The main reason that I didn't want to go is because I know that Halloween is probably the highest satanic day in the year. And it certainly has no place in a Christian church.

My granddaughter was a young teenager at the time and she was telling me how these very young children were so traumatized by what they were seeing and experiencing that they were crying and very frightened. I imagine that those children had nightmares about that for awhile

This had a very negative effect on my granddaughter and has given her the wrong impression of what a Christian church is, what a Christian is, what Christianity is, and above all, what God is like and who He really is. To this day, she wants nothing to do with Christianity.

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Sorry TJ, I tried to hit the “Like” button and hit dislike instead, and I don’t know how to undo it.

I think that i’ve Heard of “hell night” like that before but have never known of it being done around here. The idea may very well have been intended positively but I don’t see it actually doing much good.

I can understand how it could have negative effect on Christianity more frequently than doing any harm. Scaring people to Jesus just seems really insensitive and backwards to me. I can understand that there is consequences that God has outlined for the disobedient, but threatening them with Hell and Dangling reward are actually detrimental to why Christians become Christians. We want people to genuinely love God, not just Go to heaven or be afraid of death. That’s my opinion anyway, a Christian can be a Christian for the wrong reasons and some could Be in for a nasty surprise in the future with some of the thinking that is being perpetrated. Good intent can still backfire if it reinforces the wrong line of thinking. There’s a balance and it can become off kilter very easily.

So i’m Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential problem and I don’t know if it’s been pointed out elsewhere.

With full access to  your consciousness, you would have access to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you weren’t so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly be tormented for all eternity? If they aren’t subject to that torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea of Jesus? I don’t think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to not be a selfish jerk, but i’m Sure it’s a pretty common way. So I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal torment.

On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially soothing information, is that person fully themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have been before they were altered for the torment?

Quote from: patrick jane on September 22, 2018, 04:53:45 pm

If I get what you're saying, having the ability to think in hell while being fully conscience would make it possible to overcome the torment to a degree? I have had the same type thoughts thinking of course if I go to hell. I thought I guess over that much time of being fully aware in hell I would learn to live with it. I would adapt and accept my fate. More to come on this but I have to run.

Actually, thinking like that is right on topic P.J.! What keeps the suffering fresh and eternally tormenting if we are conscious to the capacity that we are in our daily lives, especially if we are not just caught up in our own misery? I don’t believe the lake of fire can work like most people imagine it, there just seems to be too many “loopholes in the logic”. I’m not saying that Torment in the lake of fire isn’t someone’s fate, but that it does not logically work in the way we typically think that it would. Something has to be changed in how we perceive it to be a truly viable eternal punishment.

Quote from: patrick jane on September 22, 2018, 07:57:24 pm

I agree. Each day would have to be a brand new day of suffering and torment with no memory of the previous days it seems. That may be way off but different problems arise in simply tormenting someone and burning them with fire and brimstone 24/7.

Exactly, so for it to work AT ALL, it can’t work anything like we’ve always assumed it does, there are just way too many problems there. It seems so simple and so terrifying a trope, until you actually think about it. The lake of fire has to be immensely worse than we think it is for it to be any kind of punishment at all. We also need to be reminded of why we suffer, so the previous memories of torment can’t be eradicated from the mind, because that would lesson the burden.

Quote from: patrick jane on September 22, 2018, 08:16:09 pm

Believe me, I've thought a lot about death and hell. The only conclusion I can draw is that I don't die. How bad can the suffering and torment be? It's not bad enough to kill me, I can't stop it, I must accept it and it lasts forever. I have nothing to fear at that point, no mystery to solve, no surprises maybe. Unless each day starts and you begin remembering all the evil we did, lol.

Then it gets to the question of what exactly determines whether I go to hell. In 1st grade I asked the teacher, a nun about how many sins gets you to hell? You never get a straight answer with a straightforward question like that, especially a kid. I had another question for a different nun and asked if I was on my way to confession but got hit by a car out front and killed what would happen? She said I'd go to hell, point blank. I did not believe her, lol.

Our topic does throw doubt on what amount of physical pain would be effective to a soul capable of rational thought, there has to be a maximum threshold somewhere and once you’ve had the worst, it can’t be any worse, no matter how long eternity is. If it’s incremental, you’d have to have the comfort of the easier punishments wiped from your mind. I think most of the actual torment would have to be psychological to have any kind of lasting effects. Again, a rational mind would have to be augmented into a state of irrational thought for this to work for any length of time, I think anyway.