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Author Topic: Who was the first reformer?  (Read 1268 times)

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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Who was the first reformer?
« on: February 22, 2020, 01:39:00 am »
In a brief coffee and donuts discussion, I was asked who I thought the first reformer in the Christian religion was.  Now we all in this little group like to consider ourselves Theologians of some level as we all have various degrees saying as such.  We also all have varied opinions on almost everything that comes up in discussion.  This question was no exception.

Feeling pretty proud of myself in my thinking my initial response was Thomas Aquinas from a purely theological point of viewing it.   However, as the discussion moved into another cup of coffee and the owner bringing us all a free cinnamon roll we better defined how to apply the term reformer. 

My final Answer was Jesus was the first reformer.  The religion does not exist without Jesus's attempts to reform the Jewish religion into something better than it was.  Instead of her reformed a people not a religion.   It seems to be the first and best of the reforms.

Let me hear some thoughts on this.  Agree,, disagree add to or take away.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

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patrick jane

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2020, 08:15:43 am »
What about John the Baptist? Interesting question.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2020, 05:40:03 pm »
I thought of John the Baptist also.  My reason was his impact of reforming was not enduring like Jesus, but his impact on Jesus was.  So was he the first reformer because of his indirect impact or is his reforming status secondary to his influence on Jesus?
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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patrick jane

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2020, 06:58:29 pm »
I thought of John the Baptist also.  My reason was his impact of reforming was not enduring like Jesus, but his impact on Jesus was.  So was he the first reformer because of his indirect impact or is his reforming status secondary to his influence on Jesus?
I think Jesus wins first place but we should also consider Paul and more specifically the Risen and Ascended Lord Jesus Christ, or God if you will. In reality the GRACE we are under now and the free gift of salvation through Christ alone is the New Testament because the Twelve and Jesus himself were preaching and teaching the Kingdom, the Law and the Torah.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Bladerunner

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2020, 07:17:38 pm »
I thought of John the Baptist also.  My reason was his impact of reforming was not enduring like Jesus, but his impact on Jesus was.  So was he the first reformer because of his indirect impact or is his reforming status secondary to his influence on Jesus?
I think Jesus wins first place but we should also consider Paul and more specifically the Risen and Ascended Lord Jesus Christ, or God if you will. In reality the GRACE we are under now and the free gift of salvation through Christ alone is the New Testament because the Twelve and Jesus himself were preaching and teaching the Kingdom, the Law and the Torah.

Why would Jesus be the first reformer...He is the original author.
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2020, 07:56:32 pm »
It was meant to be a discussion and study in purely academic, historical perspective Bladerunner.  I understand what you are saying.  I did not want to get into the normal disagreement over that aspect though. 

I may not have worded it as precisely as I should have but I felt that it was fairly clear the  type of discussion I was hoping for.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Bladerunner

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2020, 10:59:37 pm »
It was meant to be a discussion and study in purely academic, historical perspective Bladerunner.  I understand what you are saying.  I did not want to get into the normal disagreement over that aspect though. 

I may not have worded it as precisely as I should have but I felt that it was fairly clear the  type of discussion I was hoping for.

OK, My bad.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

patrick jane

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Re: Who was the first reformer?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2020, 01:38:23 pm »
lol
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.


 

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