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Author Topic: The exegesis flim flam...  (Read 2920 times)

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Ted T.

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The exegesis flim flam...
« on: September 13, 2019, 03:22:34 pm »
  The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.


Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
No one is without a personal pov, a bias toward one truth or another... To claim to be above and beyond eisegesis is to claim to be 100% speaking the word of GOD, truly beyond a personal mindset and all personal ideological filters.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 01:34:57 pm by patrick jane »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Bladerunner

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2019, 08:29:11 pm »
  The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.


Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
No one is without a personal pov, a bias toward one truth or another... To claim to be above and beyond eisegesis is to claim to be 100% speaking the word of GOD, truly beyond a personal mindset and all personal ideological filters.
[/quote

Which is why one needs to interpret by following rules of the road.

I read the Bible Literally, Historically, gramatically, etc.

Lets take your favorite...Romans 8:29..(KJV).."For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

 "For whom" is talking about Mankind/
"He"  is speaking of GOD/
"He also did predestinate": Jesus did something extra here other than just telling us he knew us in the past.   He predestinated those of us who HE chose with no reason given and no number of people given.

I'll stop there. God's Word is written for a small child's mind to wrap around  but deep enough for the best scholars to study for years.

How great is He that He can take a subject, let us say Paul. Here GOd takes a Saul, a hater of Jewish people, had commissioned a job where He would kille many of them... On the road, a white light appeared and blinded Saul...Through subsequent scenes, Saul became Paul, the greatest of all apologist and the Apostle to both Jew and gentile.

When Paul spoke, he spoke the words GOD inspired him to write. Through Paul, GOD's words tells us about Paul himself wile at the same time tells us the story of the Bible. The story of two marriages ending in everlasting life.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Chaplain Mark Schmidt

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 01:19:26 am »
I argued against the use of exegesis as a form of finding an understanding of scriptures when in seminary.  I did not feel the method taught allowed a full examination of scriptures that could allow an understanding of them.  I am glad others feel this was scammish in nature.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 02:18:56 pm by Chaplain Mark Schmidt »
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
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Ted T.

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 12:00:12 pm »
He predestinated those of us who HE chose with no reason given...


This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others.


Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is heretical from one point of view or another.


PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it is a chore.



Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Bladerunner

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2020, 06:44:43 pm »
He predestinated those of us who HE chose with no reason given...


This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others.


Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is heretical from one point of view or another.


PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it is a chore.

You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not others."

Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no different.

Have a good day.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2020, 09:28:57 am »
flim flam man
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

Ted T.

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2020, 11:03:01 am »
He predestinated those of us who HE chose with no reason given...

This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others.

Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is heretical from one point of view or another.

PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it is a chore.

You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not others."

Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no different.

Have a good day.Blade


Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??) misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote,
Quote
"This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others."
clearly refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse Calvinism!


Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that way', be my guest!


 Your statement with pompous disdain also rejects all the hundreds of places in the bible in which GOD has written about what HE likes and loves and what HE dislikes and hates... Surely we can extrapolate from these revelations by the leading of the Spirit to know that HE does NOT hate nor love arbitrarily but has a good solid reasons so any good solid reason (such as: our predestination was based upon our free will choice to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as rejecting to put our faith in HIM as a liar and a false god) must be considered.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 11:40:17 pm by Bladerunner »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Bladerunner

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2020, 11:57:53 pm »
He predestinated those of us who HE chose with no reason given...

This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others.

Yes, but He did say in John 3:16 that anyone who believed in HIM would have have everlasting life. How He reconciles those two parts, I have no idea but any perfectly willing (through) my free-will to let Him figure it out...This question is far above my pay grade so to speak.

Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is heretical from one point of view or another.

Yes, it is Blasphemy to even contemplate that mankind can be on some plane of level with Jesus Christ. It is the same arrogance that Lucifer presented before His fall.


PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it is a chore.

I fixed the shadow bow problems. These are left over from the days when the background was different. At that time, They showed up well. Am in the process of changing them, when I can find them.


You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not others."

Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no different.

Have a good day.Blade

I did not say who he dislikes or likes but rather quoted His WORDs from the Bible...

Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??) misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote,
Quote
"This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others."
clearly refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse Calvinism!


Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that way', be my guest!/quote]

I do not even pretend to think that I know what He does, knows , etc.   All I can do is give you His words over those of the book, manual you get your PCE Manual from.

Your statement with pompous disdain also rejects all the hundreds of places in the bible in which GOD has written about what HE likes and loves and what HE dislikes and hates... Surely we can extrapolate from these revelations by the leading of the Spirit to know that HE does NOT hate nor love arbitrarily but has a good solid reasons so any good solid reason (such as: our predestination was based upon our free will choice to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as rejecting to put our faith in HIM as a liar and a false god) must be considered.

Don't agree with this...All we really have to do is have faith in Him according to those very scriptures you disregard.



Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Ted T.

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2020, 10:55:52 am »
Yes, it is Blasphemy to even contemplate that mankind can be on some plane of level with Jesus Christ. It is the same arrogance that Lucifer presented before His fall.
How can the time when we were created put us on an equal plane with Christ, our God? He is the creator, we the created...there is no way that the timing of when He created us can ever make us Godly and on an equal plane with Him! Your logic is broken... It seems to me that being in HIS image is much more of an equality with Him than the timing of our creation.


Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??) misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote,
Quote
"This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others."
clearly refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse Calvinism!

Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that way', be my guest!

I do not even pretend to think that I know what He does, knows , etc.   All I can do is give you His words over those of the book, manual you get your PCE Manual from.
Blade I just pointed out your misrepresentations of me and my belief. You have ignored this.

You may explain how you came to misunderstand PCE or you may try to develop how your interpretation fits my PCE but to ignore such accusations is bad form on every debate forum, especially a forum of Christian pov, as it makes the misrepresentations a slander and shows a lack of moral commitment.

...such as: our predestination was based upon our free will choice to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as rejecting to put our faith in HIM as a liar and a false god) must be considered.

Don't agree with this...All we really have to do is have faith in Him according to those very scriptures you disregard.  Blade
To contrast faith in Christ for our salvation with the reason we were chosen to be elect or to be passed over for election is really illogical.

And to accuse me of disregarding any scripture without any proof or reference is another slander. Hard to stop when you are on a roll, eh...
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Bladerunner

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2020, 11:11:11 pm »
Yes, it is Blasphemy to even contemplate that mankind can be on some plane of level with Jesus Christ. It is the same arrogance that Lucifer presented before His fall.
How can the time when we were created put us on an equal plane with Christ, our God? He is the creator, we the created...there is no way that the timing of when He created us can ever make us Godly and on an equal plane with Him! Your logic is broken... It seems to me that being in HIS image is much more of an equality with Him than the timing of our creation.


Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??) misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote,
Quote
"This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others."
clearly refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse Calvinism!

Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that way', be my guest!

I do not even pretend to think that I know what He does, knows , etc.   All I can do is give you His words over those of the book, manual you get your PCE Manual from.
Blade I just pointed out your misrepresentations of me and my belief. You have ignored this.

You may explain how you came to misunderstand PCE or you may try to develop how your interpretation fits my PCE but to ignore such accusations is bad form on every debate forum, especially a forum of Christian pov, as it makes the misrepresentations a slander and shows a lack of moral commitment.

...such as: our predestination was based upon our free will choice to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as rejecting to put our faith in HIM as a liar and a false god) must be considered.

Don't agree with this...All we really have to do is have faith in Him according to those very scriptures you disregard.  Blade
To contrast faith in Christ for our salvation with the reason we were chosen to be elect or to be passed over for election is really illogical.

And to accuse me of disregarding any scripture without any proof or reference is another slander. Hard to stop when you are on a roll, eh...

If giving you the word of GOD (his authority) is slandering you, ok.....He tells us in many places. In Romans 8:29-30. GOD's word is specific. If your manuals/books for your PCE theology does not have these then I suggest you change books. I have nothing against you or your Theology....I compare your PCE Bible ( I use that word lightly here) with the WORD of GOD that has not changed in over 400 years. One that agrees 99.9% with manuscripts that did not come out of Alexandria. I consider it as GOD's WORD.........

If you want to discredit scriptures that state "election" , it is ok with me...I try to tell every one that "Free WIll" is also mentioned....in John 3:16..How GOD reconcile these two, I have no idea but I have faith enough that He does...

Its not about you or me,,,,,,TED....It is all about Jesus and His WORD....

Have a great day and I hope you change your mind that I was trying to slander you.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Ted T.

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2020, 12:22:56 am »
If giving you the word of GOD (his authority) is slandering you, ok.....He tells us in many places. In Romans 8:29-30. GOD's word is specific. If your manuals/books for your PCE theology does not have these then I suggest you change books. I have nothing against you or your Theology....I compare your PCE Bible ( I use that word lightly here) with the WORD of GOD that has not changed in over 400 years. One that agrees 99.9% with manuscripts that did not come out of Alexandria. I consider it as GOD's WORD.........
Blade


You do NOT give me the unchanging word of GOD, you give me an unchanging INTERPRETATION OF THE WORD OF GOD - an interpretation that contains many positions hard for the logical and GOD aware person to hold. In no Bible in the world, in no interpretation of any scripture is there anything that prohibits PCE from being the truth! Nothing in any bible that suggests, let alone forces us to accept, PCE as a blasphemy. Not one!


PCE is an interpretation of the writings about GOD's work with mankind which denies that
- we are sinners because we inherit Adam's sin by the express will of God as your valued non-Alexandrian interpretations do. PCE contends that only by a real free will decision to sin can someone become sinful...and I use the word real to separate it from the "we have free will on earth-ers" who deny the plain meaning of being a slave to sin because their theology cannot deal with no free will here on earth until rebirth.


- That GOD knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway! Those who believe this have a smattering of theology but they do not know GOD at all! This blasphemy makes
GOD the author of all sin because were are only what GOD made us. PCE contends that GOD created us all, each and every one, truly innocent and we only became sinners when we chose by our free will to rebel against HIM.


The fact that 99% of the Church is willing to live with these blasphemies measures their desperation to make their theologies "work", NOT their closeness to the Holy Spirit!


Sorry, tout your favourite bible or passage all you want, if you denigrate the loving righteousness and justice of our Holy GOD, I cannot abide with you. You accuse me of ignoring your favourite verses...I accuse you of ignoring the Holy spirit.
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Billy Evmur

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2020, 04:03:39 am »
He predestinated those of us who HE chose with no reason given...


This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked the election of only some and not others.


Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is heretical from one point of view or another.


PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it is a chore.

You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not others."

Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no different.

Have a good day.

Blade


There IS a reason given as to why God elected some and not others.


Whom He FOREKNEW He also predestinated and those He predestinated He elected etc.


He foreknew us, before the world was begun He knew us.


But this is not election to be saved per se. This election is to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. To be a people for the praise of His glorious grace. Election to be the church, a city set upon a hill WHY? so that everyone else can be damned?


NO


So that others can find their way back to God. We are elected to be the light of the world.


This is the meaning of "many are called but few are chosen" [chosen means elect] it is not that everyone else gets damned but that through the church they may be SAVED.
Have faith in God

Ted T.

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Re: The exegesis flim flam...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2020, 04:53:36 pm »
There IS a reason given as to why God elected some and not others.

Whom He FOREKNEW He also predestinated and those He predestinated He elected etc.

He foreknew us, before the world was begun He knew us.
There are two kinds of people, the elect whom HE calls foreknown and the non-elect whom He claims He NEVER KNEW and consigns to hell...

'Your answer conflates these two peoples suggesting that those not foreknown are still called able to enter His Flock.

But this is not election to be saved per se. This election is to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. 
It is impossible to imagine that anyone conformed to HIS Son will not be saved which makes these two phrases absolutely equal...to be foreknown is to be saved, to be predestined to be His Bride, is never condemned if they should sin. Your distinction is a false distinction signifying nothing.

This is the meaning of "many are called but few are chosen" [chosen means elect] it is not that everyone else gets damned but that through the church they may be SAVED.
??? ??? ??? ??...0nly a few being chosen proves that all are called? A rethink looks to be necessary...

Only a few sinners are chosen because only a few of the faithful rebelled against GOD and became sinners needing to be born on earth to come under Christ's death and be saved from their sin. The vast majority of sinners on earth are the reprobate, those who rejected all forms of faith in YHWH thus sinning the unforgivable sin and were passed over for election as unfit to ever enter His Heaven, only fit by their free will rejection of faith to be damned.
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

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