Author Topic: RETURN VERSES (Read 6078 times)

guest58 · « **on:** June 21, 2019, 01:39:19 pm »

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion.

Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.

Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope...

Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a preconception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.

guest58 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2019, 04:04:38 pm »

That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is just as possible that our being created on earth bias has taken over as the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted to infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.

Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life: Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine...that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine...

That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as something else for centuries means that you can read them and never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence though the best will mention it. Like Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.

TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shûb - shoob
A primitive root; to turn back
to return, turn back
• to turn back
• to return, come or go back
• to return unto, go back, come back

English Standard Version
The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Berean Study Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.

New American Standard Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

IF the wicked RETURN to Sheol, logic and ordinary use of language indicates that they were there before but left. We have humans coming from Sheol and then returning back to there. We also have Christ telling us that the good seed, the people of the kingdom are sown into the world by the Son of Man and the people of the evil one are sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. Where were they before they were sown? And sown cannot mean to be created as the devil does this sowing also and he can't create people. Does this verse refer to the moving of people from Sheol attested to by Ps 9:17 and Psalm 139:11-15? How can it be when orthodoxy has already declares it means something else and cannot be a reference hint to our pce. And we got the King James Bible to keep us straight (or to hide the fact of PCE?) about the orthodox interpretation, that is: The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God. ignoring to mention it was a return to where they were before.

Now if there were only two or three verses like this ordinary hermeneutics demands that they be accepted as a witness but what if there were in fact dozens, all suppressed? People generally are not willing to do the work to parse the verses to see if a hint could be hidden in scripture even if I provide them - just too many spilling apples!!

guest58 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2019, 05:03:28 pm »

Death is a Return:

While I have read all the interpretations of how our deaths being called a return to GOD does not mean we came from HIM in some pre-existent way, I think that this interpretation is forced onto the verses by a preconceived need for us to be created on earth. Without the bias, no one would think twice about using return in these verses as a "going back to where we came from."

Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send, hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening again.”

Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. Do we really think Job is planning on returning to where he was born from, his mother's womb or is this a poetic way of saying he is going back to where he came from, ie, Sheol. If it does not mean that, what else can it mean? Certainly not the "GOD's illogical analogy" of the Pulpit Commentary Verse 21.

Quote

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither. There is some difficulty in the word "thither," since no man returns to his mother's womb (John 3:4), at death or otherwise. The expression must not be pressed. It arises out of the analogy, constantly felt and acknowledged, between "mother" earth and a man's actual mother…

Better is Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
naked shall I return thither; not into his mother's womb in a literal sense, which was impossible, John 3:4, but to the earth, and to the dust of it, Genesis 3:19, pointing to it with his finger, on which he now lay; meaning that he should go to the place appointed for him, the grave, the house of all living, Job 30:23, and so the Targum here has it...
using those well established scholars of the Holy Spirit, the Jewish commentaries, as his resource.

If he is only talking of becoming dust again, what about his spirit, the alive part of him that will be resurrected some day? Do you think his decaying body was more important to him as his identity, his "I", than his spirit? Do you talk that way about your clothes? But even to accept this as Gill would have us believe, does not answer the return of our spirits to GOD at death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it. You know what I think of this verse. It supplies a description of what can happen to a person's spirit after death, which part was not so plain in the previous reference to Job.

The body returns to being basic elements: dust, as it was, that state it was in before it was alive; and this person's spirit returns to GOD, that state it was in before it was alive. Therefore, “gave it” must mean “gave it life - sent it to live” rather than “gave it existence - created it then”. “Unto GOD” must mean “to the place - state where THEy are.”

If the spirit did not exist before conception, then it could not return anywhere, that is, “unto GOD”. It would have never been there before. Only with preconception existence can a spirit return to be with GOD, without making “return” mean something else.

guest8 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2019, 07:30:06 pm »

Quote from: Ted T. on June 22, 2019, 05:03:28 pm

Death is a Return:

While I have read all the interpretations of how our deaths being called a return to GOD does not mean we came from HIM in some pre-existent way, I think that this interpretation is forced onto the verses by a preconceived need for us to be created on earth. Without the bias, no one would think twice about using return in these verses as a "going back to where we came from."

Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send, hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening again.”

Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. Do we really think Job is planning on returning to where he was born from, his mother's womb or is this a poetic way of saying he is going back to where he came from, ie, Sheol. If it does not mean that, what else can it mean? Certainly not the "GOD's illogical analogy" of the Pulpit Commentary Verse 21.
Quote
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither. There is some difficulty in the word "thither," since no man returns to his mother's womb (John 3:4), at death or otherwise. The expression must not be pressed. It arises out of the analogy, constantly felt and acknowledged, between "mother" earth and a man's actual mother…

Better is Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
naked shall I return thither; not into his mother's womb in a literal sense, which was impossible, John 3:4, but to the earth, and to the dust of it, Genesis 3:19, pointing to it with his finger, on which he now lay; meaning that he should go to the place appointed for him, the grave, the house of all living, Job 30:23, and so the Targum here has it...
using those well established scholars of the Holy Spirit, the Jewish commentaries, as his resource.

If he is only talking of becoming dust again, what about his spirit, the alive part of him that will be resurrected some day? Do you think his decaying body was more important to him as his identity, his "I", than his spirit? Do you talk that way about your clothes? But even to accept this as Gill would have us believe, does not answer the return of our spirits to GOD at death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it. You know what I think of this verse. It supplies a description of what can happen to a person's spirit after death, which part was not so plain in the previous reference to Job.

The body returns to being basic elements: dust, as it was, that state it was in before it was alive; and this person's spirit returns to GOD, that state it was in before it was alive. Therefore, “gave it” must mean “gave it life - sent it to live” rather than “gave it existence - created it then”. “Unto GOD” must mean “to the place - state where THEy are.”

If the spirit did not exist before conception, then it could not return anywhere, that is, “unto GOD”. It would have never been there before. Only with preconception existence can a spirit return to be with GOD, without making “return” mean something else.

don't know how you do it.I would be terrified

Blade

guest58 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2019, 12:45:58 am »

Quote from: Bladerunner on June 22, 2019, 07:30:06 pm

don't know how you do it.I would be terrified
Blade

Well I do know what you mean...though I was not so terrified as angry 35 yrs ago when this was all presented to me. I was still a somewhat new Christian and as yet unrepentant but looking at Christianity more than anywhere else for the truth... But the calling of the Spirit to accept it was immense and now I have the help to go public.

patrick jane · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2020, 09:17:31 am »

Interesting

patrick jane · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2020, 07:44:35 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on August 16, 2020, 09:17:31 am

Interesting

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Author Topic: RETURN VERSES (Read 6078 times)

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