Author Topic: Progressive Revelation (Read 10491 times)

guest58 · « **on:** May 13, 2019, 03:31:10 pm »

John 14:26 The Comforter shall teach you all things.In regard to this verse, one must either believe that the Church has already been taught all things and that we already know all things, OR one must believe that we still must be taught new things and receive a new understanding of the revealed facts we presently possess so that they will truly reveal all things.
Because I do not accept that anyone else in the Church knows all things,[1] I believe that this prophecy from Jesus definitely leads us to believe that we will receive further teaching, that is, revelation, in order that it be fulfilled.

John 16:12 I (Jesus) have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. "Many things to say" must mean many things to reveal. He says that these unrevealed things would have been revealed but for their (our[2]) inability to bear them. He goes on to say that when the Spirit of truth is come, the Church will be led to know all truth.

I think history proves that this process has not come to completion yet, for we have not received many new revelations of the truth since Jesus spoke these words. In fact, we have not even been brought into a full knowledge of the truth about the doctrines revealed at His first advent. Since we do not yet know all the truth, that is, since the Church is not founded on the whole truth yet, that is, since the Holy Church Christ started to build has not been finished yet, may I suggest that there has to be some more leading in this area.

This is the same as saying that revelations and leading which could not be revealed then will be when we are able to bear them, that is, when the Spirit of truth is come. Now, some will undoubtedly want a little discussion to the effect that the Spirit of truth came at Pentecost. Well it's true that the Spirit of truth came at Pentecost, but He did not come in a way that fulfils this prophecy.

Rather, I think that Jesus was correct when He said, in John 9:4 I must work the works[3]of HIM that sent Me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. I think that the history of the Church has proven His prediction to be extremely accurate, for it was not too long after He was "gone" that the darkness[4] set in, and it seems that it has been allowed to reign supreme until these times. But, despair not: very soon you should be able to see for yourself that the Spirit of truth is now leading you into more truth, much more truth.

This interpretation (that the Spirit of truth still has to come and lead us into all the truth) is backed up by John 16:25 These things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. Which time was Jesus referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in the future (say like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He not?

I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators) yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so plainly yet? In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly, or does it yet speak to us in proverbs?[5]

Well, we could argue about it for some time, so maybe it would be good to call in a mutually acceptable authority on the subject. Let's look at what Paul had to say regarding the plainness and clarity of the New Testament vision of the truth.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass darkly: but then face to face: now I[23] know in part, but then shall I know even also as I am known.

Grosheide(#5), remarks in his commentary: "Our seeing in this dispensation is in a mirror darkly. The mirror in antiquity gave a very poor image (2 Corinthians 3:18). Seeing something through a mirror only was not seeing the reality. It was like considering a riddle, which makes one wonder what one really sees. Our vision is hampered by a twofold darkness[6] and hence it is in part. We are unable to determine what in our vision is precisely lacking,[7] for if we could we would have freed ourselves of the imperfection of the mirror.

The only thing that can be said is that our Lord reveals in a figure which is formally perspicuous[8] that we, when we see {now}[9], have not reached perfection. Our {present} vision is not untrue, but it is imperfect as to its degree. When perfection has been reached, we shall see face to face, ie, we shall with our eyes {of our understanding} look straight into the face of things {reality}; there will be nothing between us and the things {like GOD's face}.[10] Here again we are reminded of 1 John 3:2[11] . Passages like Exodus 33:11; Deuteronomy 34:10 (confer also Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah 52:8[12]) point in the same direction. The subsequent words also support this interpretation. Nevertheless we maintain that the vision of GOD, the knowledge of HIM, although not entirely excluded, still is not the only thing Paul has in view. The reference is broader, Paul refers to a seeing in which our face is in immediate opposition with the face of things {like the whole truth}. "To see," as appears anew, implies a Christian's entire intellectual life, as is also clear from the word "to know" in this context.

Well, wee new revelationalists don't find it too hard to agree with most of his interpretation. In fact, I suppose that only a few things need to be added.

First, it is plain, as per this commentator's remarks, that Paul expected that there would be another major revelation given to the Church.

Second, we need to inquire as to the time of this great change in the Christian's entire intellectual life or view of everything. May I suggest that, first, from 1 John 3:2[13]we can tell that it shall be changed at (by - hence, before) the time Jesus returns. Second, may I suggest that Isaiah 52:8[14]pinpoints the time even better, for it says that "they" shall possess it when "the LORD brings again Zion", which event is definitely prior to His return (because "Israel" has to be converted before He returns in salvation and judgement, not after). Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[15]

Would you like to tell me what the word "shake" means in this context? (I bet you wouldn't!) Maybe we can tell from looking at the previous divine shakings in history? Let's see. He shook it when Jesus came (as Jesus of Nazareth and as the glorious Son of man) and He shook it when Moses came. Any other time you know of that might qualify as a real shaking? (I don't think Noah qualifies as a shaking. More akin to a bath, wouldn't you say?)

Well, an interesting thing about these previous shakings is that they all involved incredible displays of power, and even more interesting so far as this study is concerned is the fact that they both involved big doctrinal revelations. Any bets on whether this yet once more shaking will be any different?

-------------------
Notes for: The Comforter...
1. Since this certainly can not mean being omniscient, “knowing all things” has to entail not knowing some things.
2. You must include the whole Church.

3. “Work the works” has to mean revealing more truth. Otherwise we are left with the conclusion that no one has done any work for GOD since, which I think is a pretty ridiculous interpretation.

4. “Night - darkness” has to mean standing on those incomplete revelations of the truth which we have previously received, that is, not yet having received the whole light - truth. So then, so far as Jesus was concerned, the New Testament age awareness of spiritual truth is night-like and in darkness, when it's compared to what is still to come.

5. Leon Morris(#4) commenting on this word, says: It can mean parables, but it is also used of a variety of clever sayings of one kind or another. There is often the implication that the meaning does not lie on the surface, but must be searched for and thought about. “Dark sayings” does therefore bring out an important part of what the word conveys.

Schonfield translates: ‘I have spoken to you enigmatically thus far.’ Up till now Jesus has spoken figuratively, with the implication that the figure is not easy to penetrate. The reference will be to the discourse as a whole rather than to the immediately preceding figure of the woman in childbirth (which is fairly obvious; it is not a “dark saying”, even though there are depths of meaning in it which the disciples are as yet unable to plumb).

Jesus goes on to refer to “the hour” when He will speak plainly. One would have expected that this would be now, and, indeed, the disciples apparently take it this way John 16:29 His disciples said unto Him, Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Yet Jesus does seem to be looking forward to the time after the resurrection; John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in My name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you... and this was the time when things which had been obscure began to be clear for them. This is probably the best way to take the words.

There is a marked difference in the apostles when we come to Acts. There is a sureness of touch, a certainty, a conviction, which could not take place until after the events narrated in the Gospels.”

Two things come to my mind. First, may I suggest that any change in the apostles after His resurrection can better be attributed to their finally becoming wholly faithful, John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? and to the filling and empowering of the Holy Spirit, rather than to their acquiring a plainer understanding of the Father or the many things Jesus had yet to say to the Church.

Second, that even if the disciples got a plainer version (John 14:5-11 Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake.) of the truth after the resurrection, it does not automatically follow that they passed it on to us plainly (which would mean that we still have to get it plainly someday too).

6. This “I” fellow is the same person who will be “alive and caught up” when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul was never meant to be included in this il-luminated group anymore than he is going to be in the group that is alive on Earth when the Lord returns. Paul really did know about our pre-earth existence, but he was forbidden to tell.

7. “Twofold darkness” because, first, it is darkly, ie, the mirror is not good at all, it is very clouded. Second, it is a mirror, i.e., the image is backwards from the way it is in reality. What one sees in a mirror is true, but, at the same time, it is not true because it is backwards, exactly as Paul says: now we see through a mirror, ie, backwards. And the solution is to turn away from the mirror to the new vision, the eternal and truest way of looking at things.

8. That is, without a new revelation!

9. Perspicuous: clear, easily understood. Nothing like making the easily understood, perspicuous. I guess it helps to show how smart we are, which, in the absence of pillars of fire, et cetera, is very helpful in getting published. Do you think “formerly perspicuous” might be a good example of still speaking in proverbs.

10. The parts in brackets are my additions.

11. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of GOD, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

12. Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face.

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen GOD face to face, and my life is preserved.

Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. “Together” must mean in unity, right? And the only way that all the denominations of Christian watchmen could come into unity is if there were a new revelation of the whole truth for them to all believe in. And don't you think that “eye to eye” constitutes an improvement upon “face to face”? It must be at least as good, right?
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. is certainly in this line of reasoning...

13. Of course at such time as we become perfect (the standard unCatholic view being that this magically takes place at death when we all “go to Paradise”) our imperfect view of things would undergo some radical changes, but Paul is not speaking of us going to Paradise. He speaks of something coming down to Earth. Hence, we are not the perfect thing. Others who recognise that this perfect thing comes down to Earth believe it is Jesus. Well, it cannot be Jesus Himself because He has appeared to many and the changes listed here did not take place. Therefore, the perfect thing can not be Jesus, but must be His “explanation of everything” to us.

Therefore, the perfect thing that comes to Earth has to be the revelation of the whole truth, not the perfect Revealer.

And this brings us back to the question: just when will Jesus give us this new revelation? Will we have to wait until after Jesus returns, or might He give it to us before He returns? Well, besides the fact that I have one in my hand, it stands to reason that GOD could allow various delusions (errors) to exist among HIS people only until the time just before HIS judgement, at which time GOD would have to show all of them the straight and narrow.

I happen to believe that GOD's people are pretty well scattered through all the denominations, which in turn has to mean that they all still have to get on the path that is perfect. In other words, it has not come yet, but it has to come soon. In other words, maybe this is it. So, maybe you should study it.

14. I think he might have had Haggai 2:6 rattling around in his mind: Haggai 2:6 Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations.

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Author Topic: Progressive Revelation (Read 10491 times)

guest58

The Comforter shall teach you all things...

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