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Author Topic: Progressive Revelation  (Read 3012 times)

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Ted T.

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Progressive Revelation
« on: May 12, 2019, 03:12:26 pm »
    WHY DO ELEPHANTS WRITE SCRIPTURES ON THEIR TOE NAILS? [1], found in footnotes at the end.
 
 Jesus said: John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.
 
Hence, Jesus knew some truth that He was unable to disclose to us, and He also knew that this truth would someday be disclosed to the Church. In other words, Jesus knew that the Church was going to receive a new revelation in the future.
 
So now, this being the case, I ask: would not GOD bear witness in Their Word to a revelation that They intended to give in the future?
 
Well, I think They would (because They've done it this way before) and if so, then wouldn't a person like Paul (who had gone to heaven and learned the whole truth but was then restrained from telling them) most likely be under some leading from the Holy Spirit to bear witness in his writings to these hidden heavenly truths so that, when it was time for their public disclosure later on, there would be some scriptural attestation to them?
 
Like, what if you had a secret that was not going to be told to the Church until the far distant future, and you knew that those persons who would receive that disclosure were going to have a hard time with it, as GOD's people have always had with every new revelation, and you knew that those people would revere your writings, wouldn't you put in something which would support the revelation when it would be made known?
 
Probably you would, and if you would, probably Paul would too but, at the same time both you and Paul would not put it in in such a way as would disclose the secret ahead of time if forbidden to do so, 2 Cor 12:4?  No, the testimony would have to be hidden somehow so that it remained a secret until the right time.
 
Therefore, you would hide the testimony in your writings, knowing that, until the time of the revelation, your readers would not really understand what you had written, and that would they make up interpretations which would not be entirely true. [2]
 
Now, if this be a reasonable way of looking at this secret heavenly theology of Paul, we must also realize that many of the other writers of Scriptures were probably in the same position, that is, knowing the same theology which they also were not able to disclose, that is, knowing the same secrets which had to remain secret for a long time, but at the same time, under leading to give a testimony in their writings to the truth of the new revelation for the sake of the recipients of the revelation in the days to come.
 
Now, truly this would be a hard thing to accomplish, but not impossible by any means, for by the Spirit of GOD, we can do all things, Philippians 4:13. I simply cannot overemphasize the importance of realizing this duress that most of the writers of the Scripture were under. It is very important to realize that they knew about our pre-conception existence but were forbidden to testify to it in such a way as would disclose the general knowledge of it before GOD's chosen time.
 
Your experience in reading the Bible should also bear witness to this idea of some hidden theology in the Scriptures, for whenever you read them, don't you always feel that the writers knew a lot more about things than you do, yet doesn't it often seem that they are keeping things back? Don't you often feel that they were not making things half as clear as they could have, if they'd have wanted to? Doesn't it seem that they did not want you to understand fully,[3] and doesn't this seem to be true of every Scripture writer, not just a couple?[4] It must, if you're studying them at all!
 
So, for those who would like to take the time necessary to do the work of searching the Scriptures regarding this doctrine, I would like to present some verses which witness to our pre-conception existence, along with some others which I feel make a lot more sense when they're interpreted in light of this doctrine.
 
Now, being that hardly anyone has searched the Scriptures in light of the pre-conception view, these Scriptures have rarely been interpreted this way before. Therefore, it stands to reason that such an exegesis[5] of these Scriptures will be new and that it will be fairly unique, that is, that almost all the other interpretations of the same Scriptures will be different.
 
In other words, any verse that conveys the idea of pre-existence has rarely been interpreted this way before because almost every exegete[6] automatically looks for a different interpretation when they read such a Scripture. This being the case, a mere list of Scriptures will not constitute proof of scriptural support for this doctrine but, to provide such proof, such a list will have to be accompanied by an in-depth exegesis of the said Scriptures. Providing such a list without the accompanying new exegesis would only tend to prove to its searchers that this doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would tend to interpret the Scriptures that supply proof of our pre-conception existence, in much the same way that everybody used to interpret the Scriptures regarding the Christ king.[7]


 Now then, most people are going to find some of these sections difficult.[8] Therefore, I suggest that you not enter into them lightly,[9] but that you prepare yourself to spend some time in some hard thinking and searching of the Scriptures.[10] Without this preparation and commitment, I doubt that you will be able to understand what I am trying to say, and if you can not understand what I am saying, how can you possibly inherit the blessings that only accompany such understanding?[11]
 
Most of the Scriptures on pre-conception existence can be categorized to a certain extent. This makes them a little easier to understand.
 
The exception to this grand scheme of things is the first category. I have called it "GENESIS" because all its references are from the book called Genesis,[12] and because it is called GENESIS, I have put it at the beginning, simply because that seems to be a very traditional thing to do, and who am I to buck tradition? After all, you know what almost always happens to people who buck the traditional way of doing things, and I have enough problems already!
 
Notes For: Why Do Elephants...?
 
1 - So that they can hide in the Bible and nobody sees them.
 
This is somewhat similar to the worldly version; they paint their toenails red so they can hide in the strawberry patch. It would seem that those of the world can not see any better then we do, in spite of their proclamations to the contrary.
 
2 - It stands to reason that these false interpretations would endure unopposed by the truth until the time of the general disclosure, at which time the new proper interpretation would be known as well as the new revelation.
 
In other words, at the time of the revelation, most of the commentators would probably be in fair agreement that the best of the false interpretations was the truth of GOD and only some would change their mind. From the historical precedent regarding the incarnation of GOD you should realize that it is very easy for everyone to miss or pass over something that they are not looking for, and that this is the case for every orthodox commentator when it comes to pre-conception existence, for not very many have ever looked at the Scriptures to see if they bear witness to pre-existence, and if any ever have it would seem that they did not see any.
 
3 - I think that pre-conception existence theology explains this unwillingness of knowledgeable people to openly disclose the things that they knew much better than any other theology.
 
Just what reason do you have for GOD hiding the Messiah's deity from the Jews?
 
(See Luke 10:21 I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Thy sight.)
 
As for the fact that the NT writers knew of pre-conception existence theology, I will show further on just how strongly the Scriptures show that they all knew. You are going to be quite surprised. It is a little like: Paul and the apostles saw my day, and were glad, but they could not tell you about it until now, so they slipped it in between the lines.
 
4 - For example, have you ever wondered why some of the disciples never wrote any OT commentaries? They must have known how little the Church would understand the law and the prophets. If they knew the correct interpretations, why didn't they open them up to the Church too?
 
And compare this methodology to the libraries of the saints and “reformers”. How do you account for the difference in their manner of propagating the truth?
 
Like, if you knew as much as Matthew, would that Gospel be your final answer? Is that all you'd have to say after three years of watching the Christ and having learned the mysteries of the kingdom? I doubt it!
 
5 - Exegesis: the exposition or interpretation of any literary production, but more particularly, the exposition or interpretation of Scripture; sometimes applied to the science which lays down the principles of the art of sacred interpretation, more properly called exegetics or hermeneutics. (Webster's #10).
 
6 - Exegete: one supposedly skilled in exegesis.
 
7 - In other words, not according to the illumination of the Holy Spirit, but according to their own errant, unilluminated, theological presuppositions. Of course, you wouldn't continue to do such a thing, would you?
 
8 - Oh that nasty word!! Why, it doesn't tickle at all! For those of you whose question is, why do we have to learn such hard stuff, please refer to the following:
 
Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Proverbs 8:34-36 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Isaiah 43:27-28 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against ME. Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Hosea 4:6 MY people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou has rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to ME: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy GOD, I will also forget thy children.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
 
9 - Although a sense of humour will be of great benefit.
 
10 - I think it would be rather incredible if a person got a full grasp of it in the first reading, or even in the second, third, fourth.
 
11 - Church history shows that the doctrinal growth of the Church has usually been the result of an error being propagated and then the Church struggling to combat the error with the truth, which we first had to figure out ourselves.
 
At those times, things often got a little confused and many were seduced from the best foundation simply because the faith did not have an immediate reply, that is, a reasonable, theological refutation for the errors, but it always took time to work it out (to learn the “new” truth) so that our faith remained on the solidest foundation.
 
Of all the errors that have or may be foisted on the Church, the greatest (strongest, most reasonable, hardest to refute, most seductive) of all will be those of the anti-Christ.
 
Now, in those days, there will not be time to counteract his errors afterward. In other words, if one is seduced away from the faith then, there will not be an opportunity to return later on after the Church has worked out the truth and shown the error of his ways.
 
This being the case, it should not be too hard to see that Jesus will change His modus operandi for those times and give us the sure foundation we need to refute his errors before we are confronted with those errors.
 
Blessed is the person whose house is built on the most solid rock around before the seductive flood of temptations takes place. On the other hand, we could go the easy way.
 
12 - May I suggest that you carefully read Genesis 1:1 to 5:1 before you begin this section. Try to remember it well, for it will never be the same again.
 
Now, I know it will take a little time but it will be worth it, honest!
 
 
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Ted T.

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New Revelation prophesied...
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 01:30:14 am »
Jeremiah 33:3  Call to ME, and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty [1] things which thou knowest not.

 The first question regarding this verse is who is the subject? I believe that the subject is the "it" of the preceding verse, Jeremiah 33:2 Thus saith the LORD, the maker of it, the LORD who formed it, to establish it, JEHOVAH is HIS name.

 From the general context, we can see that this "it" must be Jerusalem. Therefore, because HE must be speaking of Jerusalem in verse 2, I believe continuity suggests that it must also be Jerusalem that HE is addressing in verse 3, that is, Jerusalem representing GOD's people around the time of their return from their dispersion (verse 11).
 Verse 4 also suggests to whom this word is addressed. 33:4  For thus saith the LORD, the GOD of Israel, concerning the houses of this city.

 In this verse, the houses of the city, that is, the people in them at the time of this regathering (verses 6,7) are the persons with whom this word is concerned.  Therefore, if we supply them as the subject in verse 3, it becomes apparent that verse 3 is addressed to those persons that, in the latter days, will be living "in Jerusalem".

 Therefore, this being the case, we can say that verse 3 is a means of grace to these people, firstly, instructing them what to do to have all these promises fulfilled; and secondly, announcing GOD's intention to give them a new revelation of great and mighty, previously unknown things.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. From 12:9 we can see that the disclosing or unsealing of the angel's words (12:7) will not happen until the time of the end. Therefore, we can say with assurance that this verse bears witness that there will be an unsealing, disclosing or revealing at the time of the end.

Therefore may I once again suggest that, in the end times, we will be given a new understanding, that is, a revealing of that which has been sealed previously.[2]

This verse also tells us that the understanding of the new disclosures will not be possessed by everyone,[3] but that this blessing will be possessed only by the wise, that is, the purified. I also suggest that because the verse says that it is the wise who shall understand, some in-depth study might be required to understand the new disclosures, that is, that these new revelations will not be blinding visions of light, but that they will most likely appeal to our reason. Stated another way, they will be doctrinal, that discipline that requires so much discipline.

Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the GOD of Jacob; and HE will teach us of HIS ways, and we will walk in HIS paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Well, we've been looking into the possibility of a new revelation being given in the latter days. In these verses we can see that there are going to be some rather incredible changes in the religious scene, to say the least, and in the latter part of verse 2 we are given (at least, a part of) the reason for such incredible changes, to wit: the word of the LORD shall go forth from the city of GOD.

In other words, there will be at least one latter day revealer of the word of the LORD, because that's the only way that the word of the LORD can go forth from the city of David. Well, it stands to reason that if we're going to get a new revelation, we're also going to get someone who gives it.

Now, about this word of the LORD, just how do you think it might come? Do you think that somebody might get up and say: Thus saith the LORD? Well, that's certainly possible, because we've had that happen before, haven't we? Yes indeed, we know we've had that before because somebody wrote it down for us in a Book. And the word of the LORD might come in another way too, right? Like, Paul wrote a doctrinal dissertation in a letter to the Romans, didn't he? Maybe we'll get something along those lines.

Then again, maybe GOD will give someone a vision, or a message, and I suppose, if the visionary or messenger writes it down, well, well, well! It seems that, no matter which way we look at it, we're going to get another written word.[4]

Zechariah 5:2-5 I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then he said unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by MY name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. Well, what do we have here? A flying roll that GOD will bring forth. Do you recall getting this one before? I don't think you do. Maybe that is because it still is to come.

Let's see. Flying would probably connote something of an heavenly or unearthly character. Since it is a book (scroll) it would probably contain some ideas of an unearthly (previously unrevealed) nature. Its measurement "just happens" to match the holy place of GOD's temple, so it would probably be a holy book. And its holy message will have a profound effect on some people, for it obviously has some bad news for the thieves (that is, sinners - Jesus died between two thieves - in this case, those who would be interested in stealing God's glory, that is, those who have "better ideas" than GOD's way for them, that is, "Christians" who do not follow HIM,[5] that is, hypocrites, that is, false swearers[6]. For these people it shall constitute a curse, that is, it will create a very profound separation between them and the holy GOD who brings it forth. And even worse than that, it shall have a lingering effect on them, for it shall enter into their house, that is, their life (we are houses for the spirits we worship) and slowly destroy the strength thereof.[7] Well, maybe this is it, and maybe not, but we are definitely going to get such a roll sometime.[8] [9]

------------------------------------------
Notes for New Revelation

1. KJV margin: hidden. Marginal translations are not thought to be quite as good as the one the translators used, that is, the one used in the text but the marginal translation was thought to have enough merit to be noted in the margin. In other words, the translators were not very sure on how to exactly translate a lot of verses (like this one) so they gave us two translations, the textual one being their favourite (or best educated guess) and the marginal coming in second. In other words, if they were wrong on the first, they are hoping to redeem themselves with the second.

2. Now if we are going to get one, what says that we'll get only one?

3. Wouldn't you say that this might just indicate that these revelations will be given before Jesus' return?

4. Perhaps even accompanied by a somewhat inspired apology, eh?

5. Kiel(#2) comments: “The roll therefore symbolised the curse which will fall upon sinners throughout the whole land, consuming them with their houses, and thus sweeping them out of the nation of GOD.” (In other words, Armageddon.)

6. That the thief and the false swearer are the same person is shown by “and it shall remain in the midst of his house.” If they were two, i.e., different persons, wouldn't it have to be “their houses”?

7. Since it takes awhile, this has to be taking place at least a while before the judgement.

8.  Kiel(#3) comments: “The vision certainly refers to the remote future of the kingdom of GOD.”

9. Bet you didn't know that “flying” is literally: covered (either with wings or feathers, or obscurity). In other words, it might not be a flying roll at all. It might be an obscure (previously hidden) roll.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 01:37:03 am by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Ted T.

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Revelation 22:18 - 19
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 01:34:34 am »

  • Well now, there seems to be some reasonable evidence to the idea of a new revelation being given in the latter days, but what about the old warning in Revelation 22:18-19 If any man shall add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.?

    While it is true that I claim to have a new revelation, I can also say that the new things I know are already talked about in the Bible. So, I'm not adding to the Bible, I'm just explaining a lot of things that are already in there, that you don't understand very well yet. I'm not adding to Scripture: I'm just explaining it, but explaining it in a very new way, a way that you have never seen before, and a way that makes better sense than anything we've ever had before.

    So, does this sound interesting? I hope so. I hope you find it interesting enough to carry on and read the rest and find out for yourself where the Bible comes down on this one.

     
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Like Like x 1 View List

Ted T.

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The Comforter shall teach you all things...
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2019, 03:31:10 pm »
John 14:26 The Comforter shall teach you all things.In regard to this verse, one must either believe that the Church has already been taught all things and that we already know all things, OR one must believe that we still must be taught new things and receive a new understanding of the revealed facts we presently possess so that they will truly reveal all things.
Because I do not accept that anyone else in the Church knows all things,[1] I believe that this prophecy from Jesus definitely leads us to believe that we will receive further teaching, that is, revelation, in order that it be fulfilled.
 
John 16:12 I (Jesus) have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. "Many things to say" must mean many things to reveal. He says that these unrevealed things would have been revealed but for their (our[2]) inability to bear them. He goes on to say that when the Spirit of truth is come, the Church will be led to know all truth.
 
I think history proves that this process has not come to completion yet, for we have not received many new revelations of the truth since Jesus spoke these words. In fact, we have not even been brought into a full knowledge of the truth about the doctrines revealed at His first advent. Since we do not yet know all the truth, that is, since the Church is not founded on the whole truth yet, that is, since the Holy Church Christ started to build has not been finished yet, may I suggest that there has to be some more leading in this area.
 
This is the same as saying that revelations and leading which could not be revealed then will be when we are able to bear them, that is, when the Spirit of truth is come. Now, some will undoubtedly want a little discussion to the effect that the Spirit of truth came at Pentecost. Well it's true that the Spirit of truth came at Pentecost, but He did not come in a way that fulfils this prophecy.
 
Rather, I think that Jesus was correct when He said, in John 9:4 I must work the works[3]of HIM that sent Me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. I think that the history of the Church has proven His prediction to be extremely accurate, for it was not too long after He was "gone" that the darkness[4] set in, and it seems that it has been allowed to reign supreme until these times. But, despair not: very soon you should be able to see for yourself that the Spirit of truth is now leading you into more truth, much more truth.
 
This interpretation (that the Spirit of truth still has to come and lead us into all the truth) is backed up by John 16:25 These things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.  Which time was Jesus referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in the future (say like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He not?
 
I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators) yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so plainly yet? In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly, or does it yet speak to us in proverbs?[5]
 
Well, we could argue about it for some time, so maybe it would be good to call in a mutually acceptable authority on the subject. Let's look at what Paul had to say regarding the plainness and clarity of the New Testament vision of the truth.
 
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass darkly: but then face to face: now I[23] know in part, but then shall I know even also as I am known.
 
Grosheide(#5), remarks in his commentary: "Our seeing in this dispensation is in a mirror darkly. The mirror in antiquity gave a very poor image (2 Corinthians 3:18). Seeing something through a mirror only was not seeing the reality. It was like considering a riddle, which makes one wonder what one really sees. Our vision is hampered by a twofold darkness[6] and hence it is in part. We are unable to determine what in our vision is precisely lacking,[7] for if we could we would have freed ourselves of the imperfection of the mirror.

The only thing that can be said is that our Lord reveals in a figure which is formally perspicuous[8] that we, when we see {now}[9], have not reached perfection. Our {present} vision is not untrue, but it is imperfect as to its degree. When perfection has been reached, we shall see face to face, ie, we shall with our eyes {of our understanding} look straight into the face of things {reality}; there will be nothing between us and the things {like GOD's face}.[10]
Here again we are reminded of 1 John 3:2[11] . Passages like Exodus 33:11; Deuteronomy 34:10 (confer also Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah 52:8[12]) point in the same direction. The subsequent words also support this interpretation. Nevertheless we maintain that the vision of GOD, the knowledge of HIM, although not entirely excluded, still is not the only thing Paul has in view. The reference is broader, Paul refers to a seeing in which our face is in immediate opposition with the face of things {like the whole truth}. "To see," as appears anew, implies a Christian's entire intellectual life, as is also clear from the word "to know" in this context.

Well, wee new revelationalists don't find it too hard to agree with most of his interpretation. In fact, I suppose that only a few things need to be added. 

First, it is plain, as per this commentator's remarks, that Paul expected that there would be another major revelation given to the Church. 

Second, we need to inquire as to the time of this great change in the Christian's entire intellectual life or view of everything. May I suggest that, first, from 1 John 3:2[13]we can tell that it shall be changed at (by - hence, before) the time Jesus returns. Second, may I suggest that Isaiah 52:8[14]pinpoints the time even better, for it says that "they" shall possess it when "the LORD brings again Zion", which event is definitely prior to His return (because "Israel" has to be converted before He returns in salvation and judgement, not after). Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[15]

Would you like to tell me what the word "shake" means in this context? (I bet you wouldn't!) Maybe we can tell from looking at the previous divine shakings in history? Let's see. He shook it when Jesus came (as Jesus of Nazareth and as the glorious Son of man) and He shook it when Moses came. Any other time you know of that might qualify as a real shaking? (I don't think Noah qualifies as a shaking. More akin to a bath, wouldn't you say?) 

Well, an interesting thing about these previous shakings is that they all involved incredible displays of power, and even more interesting so far as this study is concerned is the fact that they both involved big doctrinal revelations. Any bets on whether this yet once more shaking will be any different?

-------------------
Notes for: The Comforter...
1. Since this certainly can not mean being omniscient, “knowing all things” has to entail not knowing some things. 
2. You must include the whole Church. 

3. “Work the works” has to mean revealing more truth. Otherwise we are left with the conclusion that no one has done any work for GOD since, which I think is a pretty ridiculous interpretation. 

4. “Night - darkness” has to mean standing on those incomplete revelations of the truth which we have previously received, that is, not yet having received the whole light - truth. So then, so far as Jesus was concerned, the New Testament age awareness of spiritual truth is night-like and in darkness, when it's compared to what is still to come. 

5. Leon Morris(#4) commenting on this word, says: It can mean parables, but it is also used of a variety of clever sayings of one kind or another. There is often the implication that the meaning does not lie on the surface, but must be searched for and thought about.  “Dark sayings” does therefore bring out an important part of what the word conveys.

Schonfield translates: ‘I have spoken to you enigmatically thus far.’ Up till now Jesus has spoken figuratively, with the implication that the figure is not easy to penetrate. The reference will be to the discourse as a whole rather than to the immediately preceding figure of the woman in childbirth (which is fairly obvious; it is not a “dark saying”, even though there are depths of meaning in it which the disciples are as yet unable to plumb). 

Jesus goes on to refer to “the hour” when He will speak plainly. One would have expected that this would be now, and, indeed, the disciples apparently take it this way  John 16:29 His disciples said unto Him, Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.  Yet Jesus does seem to be looking forward to the time after the resurrection; John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in My name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you... and this was the time when things which had been obscure began to be clear for them. This is probably the best way to take the words.

 There is a marked difference in the apostles when we come to Acts. There is a sureness of touch, a certainty, a conviction, which could not take place until after the events narrated in the Gospels.” 

Two things come to my mind. First, may I suggest that any change in the apostles after His resurrection can better be attributed to their finally becoming wholly faithful, John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? and to the filling and empowering of the Holy Spirit, rather than to their acquiring a plainer understanding of the Father or the many things Jesus had yet to say to the Church. 

Second, that even if the disciples got a plainer version (John 14:5-11 Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake.) of the truth after the resurrection, it does not automatically follow that they passed it on to us plainly (which would mean that we still have to get it plainly someday too). 

6. This “I” fellow is the same person who will be “alive and caught up” when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul was never meant to be included in this il-luminated group anymore than he is going to be in the group that is alive on Earth when the Lord returns. Paul really did know about our pre-earth existence, but he was forbidden to tell. 

7. “Twofold darkness” because, first, it is darkly, ie, the mirror is not good at all, it is very clouded. Second, it is a mirror, i.e., the image is backwards from the way it is in reality.  What one sees in a mirror is true, but, at the same time, it is not true because it is backwards, exactly as Paul says: now we see through a mirror, ie, backwards. And the solution is to turn away from the mirror to the new vision, the eternal and truest way of looking at things.

8. That is, without a new revelation! 

9. Perspicuous: clear, easily understood. Nothing like making the easily understood, perspicuous. I guess it helps to show how smart we are, which, in the absence of pillars of fire, et cetera, is very helpful in getting published. Do you think “formerly perspicuous” might be a good example of still speaking in proverbs. 

10. The parts in brackets are my additions. 

11. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of GOD, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 12. Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face.

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen GOD face to face, and my life is preserved.

Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. “Together” must mean in unity, right? And the only way that all the denominations of Christian watchmen could come into unity is if there were a new revelation of the whole truth for them to all believe in.  And don't you think that “eye to eye” constitutes an improvement upon “face to face”? It must be at least as good, right?

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. is certainly in this line of reasoning...

13. Of course at such time as we become perfect (the standard unCatholic view being that this magically takes place at death when we all “go to Paradise”) our imperfect view of things would undergo some radical changes, but Paul is not speaking of us going to Paradise.  He speaks of something coming down to Earth. Hence, we are not the perfect thing. Others who recognise that this perfect thing comes down to Earth believe it is Jesus. Well, it cannot be Jesus Himself because He has appeared to many and the changes listed here did not take place.  Therefore, the perfect thing can not be Jesus, but must be His “explanation of everything” to us.

Therefore, the perfect thing that comes to Earth has to be the revelation of the whole truth, not the perfect Revealer.

And this brings us back to the question: just when will Jesus give us this new revelation? Will we have to wait until after Jesus returns, or might He give it to us before He returns? Well, besides the fact that I have one in my hand, it stands to reason that GOD could allow various delusions (errors) to exist among HIS people only until the time just before HIS judgement, at which time GOD would have to show all of them the straight and narrow. 

I happen to believe that GOD's people are pretty well scattered through all the denominations, which in turn has to mean that they all still have to get on the path that is perfect. In other words, it has not come yet, but it has to come soon. In other words, maybe this is it. So, maybe you should study it. 

14. I think he might have had Haggai 2:6 rattling around in his mind:  Haggai 2:6 Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 03:46:29 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Re: The Comforter shall teach you all things...
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2019, 09:12:54 pm »
John 14:26 The Comforter shall teach you all things.In regard to this verse, one must either believe that the Church has already been taught all things and that we already know all things, OR one must believe that we still must be taught new things and receive a new understanding of the revealed facts we presently possess so that they will truly reveal all things.
Because I do not accept that anyone else in the Church knows all things,[1] I believe that this prophecy from Jesus definitely leads us to believe that we will receive further teaching, that is, revelation, in order that it be fulfilled.
 
John 16:12 I (Jesus) have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. "Many things to say" must mean many things to reveal. He says that these unrevealed things would have been revealed but for their (our[2]) inability to bear them. He goes on to say that when the Spirit of truth is come, the Church will be led to know all truth.
 
I think history proves that this process has not come to completion yet, for we have not received many new revelations of the truth since Jesus spoke these words. In fact, we have not even been brought into a full knowledge of the truth about the doctrines revealed at His first advent. Since we do not yet know all the truth, that is, since the Church is not founded on the whole truth yet, that is, since the Holy Church Christ started to build has not been finished yet, may I suggest that there has to be some more leading in this area.
 
This is the same as saying that revelations and leading which could not be revealed then will be when we are able to bear them, that is, when the Spirit of truth is come. Now, some will undoubtedly want a little discussion to the effect that the Spirit of truth came at Pentecost. Well it's true that the Spirit of truth came at Pentecost, but He did not come in a way that fulfils this prophecy.
 
Rather, I think that Jesus was correct when He said, in John 9:4 I must work the works[3]of HIM that sent Me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. I think that the history of the Church has proven His prediction to be extremely accurate, for it was not too long after He was "gone" that the darkness[4] set in, and it seems that it has been allowed to reign supreme until these times. But, despair not: very soon you should be able to see for yourself that the Spirit of truth is now leading you into more truth, much more truth.
 
This interpretation (that the Spirit of truth still has to come and lead us into all the truth) is backed up by John 16:25 These things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.  Which time was Jesus referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in the future (say like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He not?
 
I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators) yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so plainly yet? In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly, or does it yet speak to us in proverbs?[5]
 
Well, we could argue about it for some time, so maybe it would be good to call in a mutually acceptable authority on the subject. Let's look at what Paul had to say regarding the plainness and clarity of the New Testament vision of the truth.
 
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass darkly: but then face to face: now I[23] know in part, but then shall I know even also as I am known.
 
Grosheide(#5), remarks in his commentary: "Our seeing in this dispensation is in a mirror darkly. The mirror in antiquity gave a very poor image (2 Corinthians 3:18). Seeing something through a mirror only was not seeing the reality. It was like considering a riddle, which makes one wonder what one really sees. Our vision is hampered by a twofold darkness[6] and hence it is in part. We are unable to determine what in our vision is precisely lacking,[7] for if we could we would have freed ourselves of the imperfection of the mirror.

The only thing that can be said is that our Lord reveals in a figure which is formally perspicuous[8] that we, when we see {now}[9], have not reached perfection. Our {present} vision is not untrue, but it is imperfect as to its degree. When perfection has been reached, we shall see face to face, ie, we shall with our eyes {of our understanding} look straight into the face of things {reality}; there will be nothing between us and the things {like GOD's face}.[10]
Here again we are reminded of 1 John 3:2[11] . Passages like Exodus 33:11; Deuteronomy 34:10 (confer also Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah 52:8[12]) point in the same direction. The subsequent words also support this interpretation. Nevertheless we maintain that the vision of GOD, the knowledge of HIM, although not entirely excluded, still is not the only thing Paul has in view. The reference is broader, Paul refers to a seeing in which our face is in immediate opposition with the face of things {like the whole truth}. "To see," as appears anew, implies a Christian's entire intellectual life, as is also clear from the word "to know" in this context.

Well, wee new revelationalists don't find it too hard to agree with most of his interpretation. In fact, I suppose that only a few things need to be added. 

First, it is plain, as per this commentator's remarks, that Paul expected that there would be another major revelation given to the Church. 

Second, we need to inquire as to the time of this great change in the Christian's entire intellectual life or view of everything. May I suggest that, first, from 1 John 3:2[13]we can tell that it shall be changed at (by - hence, before) the time Jesus returns. Second, may I suggest that Isaiah 52:8[14]pinpoints the time even better, for it says that "they" shall possess it when "the LORD brings again Zion", which event is definitely prior to His return (because "Israel" has to be converted before He returns in salvation and judgement, not after). Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[15]

Would you like to tell me what the word "shake" means in this context? (I bet you wouldn't!) Maybe we can tell from looking at the previous divine shakings in history? Let's see. He shook it when Jesus came (as Jesus of Nazareth and as the glorious Son of man) and He shook it when Moses came. Any other time you know of that might qualify as a real shaking? (I don't think Noah qualifies as a shaking. More akin to a bath, wouldn't you say?) 

Well, an interesting thing about these previous shakings is that they all involved incredible displays of power, and even more interesting so far as this study is concerned is the fact that they both involved big doctrinal revelations. Any bets on whether this yet once more shaking will be any different?

-------------------
Notes for: The Comforter...
1. Since this certainly can not mean being omniscient, “knowing all things” has to entail not knowing some things. 
2. You must include the whole Church. 

3. “Work the works” has to mean revealing more truth. Otherwise we are left with the conclusion that no one has done any work for GOD since, which I think is a pretty ridiculous interpretation. 

4. “Night - darkness” has to mean standing on those incomplete revelations of the truth which we have previously received, that is, not yet having received the whole light - truth. So then, so far as Jesus was concerned, the New Testament age awareness of spiritual truth is night-like and in darkness, when it's compared to what is still to come. 

5. Leon Morris(#4) commenting on this word, says: It can mean parables, but it is also used of a variety of clever sayings of one kind or another. There is often the implication that the meaning does not lie on the surface, but must be searched for and thought about.  “Dark sayings” does therefore bring out an important part of what the word conveys.

Schonfield translates: ‘I have spoken to you enigmatically thus far.’ Up till now Jesus has spoken figuratively, with the implication that the figure is not easy to penetrate. The reference will be to the discourse as a whole rather than to the immediately preceding figure of the woman in childbirth (which is fairly obvious; it is not a “dark saying”, even though there are depths of meaning in it which the disciples are as yet unable to plumb). 

Jesus goes on to refer to “the hour” when He will speak plainly. One would have expected that this would be now, and, indeed, the disciples apparently take it this way  John 16:29 His disciples said unto Him, Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.  Yet Jesus does seem to be looking forward to the time after the resurrection; John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in My name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you... and this was the time when things which had been obscure began to be clear for them. This is probably the best way to take the words.

 There is a marked difference in the apostles when we come to Acts. There is a sureness of touch, a certainty, a conviction, which could not take place until after the events narrated in the Gospels.” 

Two things come to my mind. First, may I suggest that any change in the apostles after His resurrection can better be attributed to their finally becoming wholly faithful, John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? and to the filling and empowering of the Holy Spirit, rather than to their acquiring a plainer understanding of the Father or the many things Jesus had yet to say to the Church. 

Second, that even if the disciples got a plainer version (John 14:5-11 Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake.) of the truth after the resurrection, it does not automatically follow that they passed it on to us plainly (which would mean that we still have to get it plainly someday too). 

6. This “I” fellow is the same person who will be “alive and caught up” when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul was never meant to be included in this il-luminated group anymore than he is going to be in the group that is alive on Earth when the Lord returns. Paul really did know about our pre-earth existence, but he was forbidden to tell. 

7. “Twofold darkness” because, first, it is darkly, ie, the mirror is not good at all, it is very clouded. Second, it is a mirror, i.e., the image is backwards from the way it is in reality.  What one sees in a mirror is true, but, at the same time, it is not true because it is backwards, exactly as Paul says: now we see through a mirror, ie, backwards. And the solution is to turn away from the mirror to the new vision, the eternal and truest way of looking at things.

8. That is, without a new revelation! 

9. Perspicuous: clear, easily understood. Nothing like making the easily understood, perspicuous. I guess it helps to show how smart we are, which, in the absence of pillars of fire, et cetera, is very helpful in getting published. Do you think “formerly perspicuous” might be a good example of still speaking in proverbs. 

10. The parts in brackets are my additions. 

11. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of GOD, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 12. Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face.

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen GOD face to face, and my life is preserved.

Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. “Together” must mean in unity, right? And the only way that all the denominations of Christian watchmen could come into unity is if there were a new revelation of the whole truth for them to all believe in.  And don't you think that “eye to eye” constitutes an improvement upon “face to face”? It must be at least as good, right?

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. is certainly in this line of reasoning...

13. Of course at such time as we become perfect (the standard unCatholic view being that this magically takes place at death when we all “go to Paradise”) our imperfect view of things would undergo some radical changes, but Paul is not speaking of us going to Paradise.  He speaks of something coming down to Earth. Hence, we are not the perfect thing. Others who recognise that this perfect thing comes down to Earth believe it is Jesus. Well, it cannot be Jesus Himself because He has appeared to many and the changes listed here did not take place.  Therefore, the perfect thing can not be Jesus, but must be His “explanation of everything” to us.

Therefore, the perfect thing that comes to Earth has to be the revelation of the whole truth, not the perfect Revealer.

And this brings us back to the question: just when will Jesus give us this new revelation? Will we have to wait until after Jesus returns, or might He give it to us before He returns? Well, besides the fact that I have one in my hand, it stands to reason that GOD could allow various delusions (errors) to exist among HIS people only until the time just before HIS judgement, at which time GOD would have to show all of them the straight and narrow. 

I happen to believe that GOD's people are pretty well scattered through all the denominations, which in turn has to mean that they all still have to get on the path that is perfect. In other words, it has not come yet, but it has to come soon. In other words, maybe this is it. So, maybe you should study it. 

14. I think he might have had Haggai 2:6 rattling around in his mind:  Haggai 2:6 Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations.

Hi Ted.... For those who have read the Bible for a while, have a understanding of the prophecies within its pages are corresponding to the time period the reader is living in.

Take for example... The city of Damascus is destroyed in one night. This would include the palaces and all.

For the reader up to 1945 this would have been impossible. On the battle field of the Civil War musket and swords could not do this. But the Atomic Bomb dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima changed all of that. A whole city destroyed along with her inhabitants in a second or two.

We, for all intents and purposes, live in the Past. The present and the future is on our mind's eye, the smallest accounting of time (10 to the minus 43 power or a blink of an eye)

The Bible lives in the future for it is always revealing fulfillments of prophesies in increments. When enough of the increments happen we begin to recognize the fulfillment. Because of the different  Eschatologies,  Ecclesiologies and Soteriologies, most people cannot see the small fulfillments of prophesies yet to come.
 
One of these prophecies that has been being fulfilled by increments for 2000 years is the Rapture prophecy. By all accounts, 80-90% of the people of the world do not believe this will happen according to their Theology, etc. Yet, until this event happens, the Bible and Christianity will continue to fall into apostasy.

Almost immediately after this event happens, Millions will gain a new understanding for the WORD of Jesus Christ and an evangelism as never seen before will begin. This too will be a prophecy happening incrementally.

The Last generation, those who see the prophecies of the middle east come to reality, the rapture, a public knowledge of the Anti-Christ's name, etc. and live to tell about it will see Jesus Christ 2nd coming.

Yes, Jesus said what He meant and Jesus meant what He said!

Blade











1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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patrick jane

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 08:05:25 pm »
Great post Blade.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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patrick jane

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Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

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1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

patrick jane

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2019, 12:25:53 am »
Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations as Paul did?






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PJ... Please define Progressive as you used it. Blade
What I mean is that Paul received many revelations over time. Over the course of more than a decade I believe.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Ted T.

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2019, 11:48:54 am »
Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations as Paul did?

Progressive refers to an addition of facts of previous revelations about something, which is not understood at the time, the Divine Messiah being the most obvious. The Jews thought they knew what the revelation about the Messiah meant but Jesus told them the truth which they rejected. Even after He plainly spoke about His divinity, some today still deny him. That is not because of the falsity of the revelation but because some have no spiritual ears to hear.

In the case of PCE I think the important aspect is that it has been a hidden doctrine  (progressively revealed) and that is the main point.

I believe GOD does this so that by turning 90º to the orthodox interpretation (a non-divine messiah) HE separates those who love their religion and their place in it above following their GOD in a new direction (the Divine Messiah). They choose resting over following, thinking it to be faithful when it is really rejecting and not listening.

As for those who knew about our pre-conception existence, I have never compiled a definitive list of believers who I believe wrote in a hidden way about it but it certainly includes the writer of Job, David, Solomon, Isaiah and other prophets, Daniel, and the gospel writers, especially John.

You should be able to see by now that no matter how many scriptures I quote, (I just got started), the weight of this interpretation of reality is such that it is overwhelming...people just don't know what to do with it. They feel that the verses have strength but cannot follow to the obvious conclusion, sigh.




Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Ted T.

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2019, 11:59:56 am »

Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations as Paul did?

PJ... Please define Progressive as you used it.

Blade



Did my previous answer to Patrick help?   Daniel was told to seal up what he learned until the end times when it would be fully revealed. This process of hiding a doctrine from the majority and giving it only to a few to be revealed later is what I tend to call a progressive revelation. Progressive would refer to both any new info (Christ's divinity, for instance) and to the way it is disseminated to individuals here and then there until a fuller revelation later.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:04:27 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Bladerunner

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2019, 12:01:10 am »

Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations as Paul did?

PJ... Please define Progressive as you used it.

Blade



Did my previous answer to Patrick help?   Daniel was told to seal up what he learned until the end times when it would be fully revealed. This process of hiding a doctrine from the majority and giving it only to a few to be revealed later is what I tend to call a progressive revelation. Progressive would refer to both any new info (Christ's divinity, for instance) and to the way it is disseminated to individuals here and then there until a fuller revelation later.


No not really.... Daniel's Book was only sealed up until John's Revelation continued it. Of course those in the OT would not have understood anyway. There is a big disagreement even to day when the ends are printed in Revelation.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Ted T.

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2019, 10:07:14 am »

No not really.... Daniel's Book was only sealed up until John's Revelation continued it. Of course those in the OT would not have understood anyway. There is a big disagreement even to day when the ends are printed in Revelation.

Blade


The Book of the Revelation of John cannot have been the fulfillment of Daniel's scroll being opened in the end times because it was written ABOUT the end times, not IN OR DURING  the end times. Daniels book more closely refers to the scroll of Rev 10 which encourages more prophecy, supposedly about something new.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 10:16:48 am by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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