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Author Topic: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro  (Read 11414 times)

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guest69

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2021, 04:29:49 pm »
Genesis 2  ESV
(1)  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2)  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
(3)  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.



The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already existed by the 7th day.

This one also is used:

Hebrews 7  ESV
(9)  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
(10)  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of (so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.


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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2021, 04:40:05 pm »
This guy Rudolf Steiner with his Anthroposophy, that I've been listening to talks about existence before creation yet he also talks about multiple earthly lives and lives between death and new life. I try to stay open minded as I don't just believe anything presented but I try to "mine" the information for valuable insight. I have the time to do this and I thank God.


He also talks very much about Christ and those who oppose Him, with detailed explanations for Christ's death at Golgotha. I lose interest during certain parts of the lectures but I'm enjoying the stimulation and the creative/intuitive juices it stirs in me. I just find it fascinating that this guy was speaking exactly 100 years ago.
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guest125

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2021, 05:19:43 pm »
This guy Rudolf Steiner with his Anthroposophy, that I've been listening to talks about existence before creation yet he also talks about multiple earthly lives and lives between death and new life. I try to stay open minded as I don't just believe anything presented but I try to "mine" the information for valuable insight. I have the time to do this and I thank God.


He also talks very much about Christ and those who oppose Him, with detailed explanations for Christ's death at Golgotha. I lose interest during certain parts of the lectures but I'm enjoying the stimulation and the creative/intuitive juices it stirs in me. I just find it fascinating that this guy was speaking exactly 100 years ago.

That's a good way to approach it PJ.  Open minded, but with eyes wide open.  I once had a mentor tell me-  "Focus on good things... read and learn things of value.  There isn't enough time in a day for "everything" so you have to be choosey and choose good things."

That stuck with me.  He once said-- don't waste your time on silly things.  Don't read things to simply entertain yourself.  Learn something from everything and you can.... but-- it's like digging through a trash can looking for something good to eat.  You 'might' find something, but why bother?  Go to a grocery store instead-- they are full of good things.  A library is a grocery store for your head.

The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if the things they were being told- 'were true.'  It's a method few employ when confronted with a new idea.  Most of us automatically think-- 'well that can't be true' because it differs from what I already believe.  -But what if you approached new ideas like the Bereans?  What if?

I think that's what they were commended for.  They took a 'what if it's true?' stance (instead of a buffalo).
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guest8

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2021, 09:48:46 pm »

While I will agree with you to some extent, Interpretation using the meaning of words as spoken by the interpreter is not the meaning the WORD of GOD gave to us.

Blade

guest8

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2021, 09:54:34 pm »
Genesis 2  ESV
(1)  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2)  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
(3)  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.



The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already existed by the 7th day.

This one also is used:

Hebrews 7  ESV
(9)  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
(10)  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of (so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.

Keep in mind that Levi was a tribe of Israel, a Priesthood tribe. therefore the priesthood was giving ties to Melchizedek because they are to be from Abraham.

Blade

guest69

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2021, 01:46:56 am »
Genesis 2  ESV
(1)  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2)  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
(3)  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.



The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already existed by the 7th day.

This one also is used:

Hebrews 7  ESV
(9)  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
(10)  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of (so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.

Keep in mind that Levi was a tribe of Israel, a Priesthood tribe. therefore the priesthood was giving ties to Melchizedek because they are to be from Abraham.

Blade
Sure.
The point is that it cannot be said of Levi that he gave tithes to Melchizedek when Abraham did unless he existed at that time (in some form within Abraham).
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guest125

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2021, 05:05:08 pm »
Genesis 2  ESV
(1)  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2)  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
(3)  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.



The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already existed by the 7th day.

This one also is used:

Hebrews 7  ESV
(9)  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
(10)  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of (so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.

What is a human being.... if not-- 'a host of heaven?'  And that man who lived among the tombs?  He was the host with the most.
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guest69

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2021, 06:44:56 pm »
What is a human being.... if not-- 'a host of heaven?'  And that man who lived among the tombs?  He was the host with the most.
Great pun!
Legion.
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guest8

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2021, 09:25:50 pm »
Genesis 2  ESV
(1)  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2)  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
(3)  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.



The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already existed by the 7th day.

This one also is used:

Hebrews 7  ESV
(9)  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
(10)  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of (so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.

Keep in mind that Levi was a tribe of Israel, a Priesthood tribe. therefore the priesthood was giving ties to Melchizedek because they are to be from Abraham.

Blade
Sure.
The point is that it cannot be said of Levi that he gave tithes to Melchizedek when Abraham did unless he existed at that time (in some form within Abraham).

He Levi (the tribe) did exist within Abraham's descendants.

Blade

guest125

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2021, 05:51:06 pm »
Genesis 2  ESV
(1)  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2)  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
(3)  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.



The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already existed by the 7th day.

This one also is used:

Hebrews 7  ESV
(9)  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
(10)  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of (so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.

Keep in mind that Levi was a tribe of Israel, a Priesthood tribe. therefore the priesthood was giving ties to Melchizedek because they are to be from Abraham.

Blade
Sure.
The point is that it cannot be said of Levi that he gave tithes to Melchizedek when Abraham did unless he existed at that time (in some form within Abraham).


I knew you back when you were nothing but a little swimmer in yer daddy's nut sack.


oops... that was supposed to go in the GIANTS thread maybe.... or was it?  Tambo said something about not wanting to have to rake up all the leaves that fall from those big boys.  Well no, not really.  See those are conifers.  Cone bearing seed plants--- if you want to get really technical you might say gymnosperms.

-from the tiniest of seeds..... and that's an image of the tree of life and in turn, the kingdom of heaven.
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guest69

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2021, 07:49:09 pm »

He Levi (the tribe) did exist within Abraham's descendants.

Blade
As Mr E says sometimes ...... "it is, but it isn't".

If we are to say that Levi paid tithes to Mechizedek because he was in Abraham, then one logical conclusion would be that Levi did everything Abraham did.
But we can't say that Levi did everything Abraham did or we would have to say that Levi also had a miraculous child (like Isaac), or that Levi lied as Abraham did when he told the king she was his sister instead of his wife.

The "it is, but it isn't" seems to be a common occurrence in scripture; which is why it is sometimes difficult to make a certain scripture verse mean the same in all situations.
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guest8

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2021, 04:31:29 pm »

He Levi (the tribe) did exist within Abraham's descendants.

Blade
As Mr E says sometimes ...... "it is, but it isn't".

If we are to say that Levi paid tithes to Mechizedek because he was in Abraham, then one logical conclusion would be that Levi did everything Abraham did.
But we can't say that Levi did everything Abraham did or we would have to say that Levi also had a miraculous child (like Isaac), or that Levi lied as Abraham did when he told the king she was his sister instead of his wife.

The "it is, but it isn't" seems to be a common occurrence in scripture; which is why it is sometimes difficult to make a certain scripture verse mean the same in all situations.

I see what you are saying Tambora but I think your reading too much into the verse.

God is telling us that He considered Abraham a Levi.

.Ok, so Abraham was a Levi...what does that mean?:  I don't know but under Jacob, all the tribes of Israel are named and God reveals the Levi tribe as the Priesthood of Israel. God already knows this little bit of info, right? 

therefore, God also considered Abraham as a Levi priest who happen to give ties to another Priest and King! This is the only reference to this in the Bible.....as Moses and the Brass Serpent was until later.

Another Question: Why does GOD make sure we know that Mechizedek was a King and through the statement about Abraham, he is also a priest. It will become illegal for anyone under the Laws of Moses to be a Priest and King at the same time? 

 It just keeps rolling on, does it not?  Just a thought!

Blade


guest125

  • Guest
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2021, 05:38:11 pm »
I think you got that completely backwards there Blade.  God didn't consider Abraham in some manner to be "of Levi" but the other way around.  Levi was in every way "of Abraham."

-but that's not what the chapter is about.  The distinction that is being made is that Melchizedek isn't of Abraham, nor is he of Levi.... and yet Abraham and all of those who came after him (including Levi in a manner of speaking as one of Father Abraham's cone seeds) paid tribute to Melchizedek -- the lessor (Abraham) paid the tithe to the greater (Melchizedek) and it was this (greater) Priest who blessed the lessor tithe payer (Abraham).

Hebrews says that the law dictates that all priests must be Levites, but Melchizedek was neither a Levite, and not even from Father Abraham... no one knows his genealogy or where he came from or who his parents were, but we know not Abraham, and not Levi. And so Hebrews lays out clearly that it isn't through the law that the true priesthood is established but through the Son of God-- through Christ.  As further evidence, neither was Jesus a Levite, but scripture tells us that Jesus (of Judah, chief of sinners among the brothers) is our Priest forever and of the order of Melchizedek not because of physical lineage (Jesus was of Judah) but by means of an indestructible life... by resurrection.

By all of this we know that Melchizedek too, became a Priest in the same way (by resurrection) or he would not be the example given.

What should we make of this?


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